From billk at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep  1 06:41:49 2000
From: billk at iinet.net.au (BillK)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 06:41:49 +0800
Subject: [plug] Monitoring processes
Message-ID: <39AEDF2D.C9A146D1@iinet.net.au>

Hi,
	does anyone know of a program that will monitor a list of processes and
pop up a dialog box and/or send an email when one exits.  It will be eay
to script using cron etc, but someone musta written an nice gui based
one somewhere along the way.  Specifically in my case xntpd has exited
before and its been some days before I noticed as well as some processes
that failed to start on the last reboot.

BillK


From james at rcpt.to  Fri Sep  1 07:22:17 2000
From: james at rcpt.to (James Bromberger)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 07:22:17 +0800
Subject: [plug] Monitoring processes
In-Reply-To: <39AEDF2D.C9A146D1@iinet.net.au>; from billk@iinet.net.au on Fri, Sep 01, 2000 at 06:41:49AM +0800
References: <39AEDF2D.C9A146D1@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000901072217.A128355@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>

On Fri, Sep 01, 2000 at 06:41:49AM +0800, BillK wrote:
> 	does anyone know of a program that will monitor a list of processes and
> pop up a dialog box and/or send an email when one exits.  It will be eay
> to script using cron etc, but someone musta written an nice gui based
> one somewhere along the way.  Specifically in my case xntpd has exited
> before and its been some days before I noticed as well as some processes
> that failed to start on the last reboot.

Big Brother, or Mon. Both can be hacked away at to add SMS paging to your 
mobile phone - you'll have to find the magic Telstra phone number 
(its a mobile number, 04xxx xxx xxx) on their site to dial.

Yours,
  James

-- 
 James Bromberger <james_AT_bromberger.com> www.rcpt.to/~james
   IT, Pelican Manufacturing - www.pelicanmanufacturing.com.au
   Snr Web Systems Admin, JDV - www.jdv.com  *  www.hartleypoynton.com.au

 Remainder moved to http://www.rcpt.to/~james/james/sig.html


From christian at amnet.net.au  Fri Sep  1 08:22:25 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 08:22:25 +0800
Subject: [plug] Re: [Notice] even better security [take II]
In-Reply-To: <39AE3045.78AAFE3C@brooks.smileys.net>; from leon@brooks.smileys.net on Thu, Aug 31, 2000 at 06:15:33PM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000831033159.29818a-100000@mandrakesoft.mandrakesoft.com> <39AE3045.78AAFE3C@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <20000901082225.A640@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Thu, Aug 31, 2000 at 06:15:33PM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote:
> Jean-Michel Dault wrote:
> > 
> > On 31 Aug 2000, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote:
> > 
> > > Leon Brooks <leon at brooks.smileys.net> writes:
> > >
> > > > I wish for an OpenBSD-based Mandrake distribution. How hard would this be?
> > > you're crazy ;-).
> > 
> > Actually, I am crazy too... I asked Theo, the main OpenBSD developper, if
> > it would be possible. Never heard back from him, so I guess he thinks I'm
> > crazy too! ;-)
> > 
> > But I'm sure it would be technically possible...

He probably didn't care one way or the other and wasn't going to waste
his (very precious) time in replying.  It's definitely technically
possible -- Debian was talking serious once about a FreeBSD-based
Debian but it (sadly) never got off the ground.


From skribe at amber.com.au  Fri Sep  1 08:42:14 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 08:42:14 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au>

I just saw this on Slashdot.  O'Reilly has a user group program where they 
provide certain benefits to *UGs.  It's probably worth a look for PLUG 
(presuming it hasn't been examined before) despite some of the benefits 
being seemingly US-based, but the possibility of free books for the library 
sounds very attractive.

http://ug.oreilly.com/

skribe
	Purity:                           62.0% 			
	Corruption:                    38.0%	
	Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
	Weirdness factor:           31%
	Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
	Medieval Career:            Black Knight	



From zombie at wasp.net.au  Fri Sep  1 09:19:17 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 09:19:17 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Monitoring processes
In-Reply-To: <20000901072217.A128355@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000901091608.510F-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>


> On Fri, Sep 01, 2000 at 06:41:49AM +0800, BillK wrote:
> > 	does anyone know of a program that will monitor a list of processes and
> > pop up a dialog box and/or send an email when one exits.  It will be eay
> > to script using cron etc, but someone musta written an nice gui based

http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/

No dialog boxes, but you can hear the screams ;)

On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, James Bromberger wrote:

> Big Brother, or Mon. Both can be hacked away at to add SMS paging to your 
> mobile phone - you'll have to find the magic Telstra phone number 
> (its a mobile number, 04xxx xxx xxx) on their site to dial.

018018767 if you're using the TAP protocol (via sms_client)

 - Matt



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Fri Sep  1 09:33:25 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 09:33:25 +0800
Subject: [plug] famous again
Message-ID: <39AF0765.9FBC23C1@brooks.smileys.net>

Here was I thinking of the piece as discontinuous and uningenious, but the
feedback has all been positive:

    http://www.osopinion.com/Opinions/LeonBrooks/LeonBrooks7.html

Who here would like to collaborate on a Halloween Anniversary piece for OSO?
"Where we've come from there", touch on Mindcraft/Gartner etc and how even if
they had been unbiassed their results would now be unachievable. That kind of
thing?

I'd like to post an article from PLUG itself, rather than just an individual.

-- 
"I worry that the person who thought up Muzak may be thinking up
something else."
     --Lily Tomlin


From THOMPSON at gate.sunquest.com  Fri Sep  1 10:34:56 2000
From: THOMPSON at gate.sunquest.com (Tamara Thompson)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 19:34:56 -0700
Subject: [plug] famous again
Message-ID: <s9aeb372.088@gate.sunquest.com>

Wow!  Congratulations, that is a magnificently articulate article.  

I had totally misunderstood your sig "many are cold but few are frozen".  I'd found it funny in a cynical sort of context with a recent story about the Pole.  oops.

I read a lot of stories and opinions and articles, usually find myself skimming them for the point or the meat, shoving the fluff out of the way.  But your article invites a full concentrated read.

Thoroughly enjoyable read, nicely tied together and smooth flow, with something that makes the reader want to know what the next line or paragraph will say.  

You know, as much as I think you captured the heart of the Open Source movement, honestly, this good of a writing might well have been about any topic, you're good.  

:)  But as a linuxer, well, I'm just damn glad you wrote it.  Inspirational and helpful.  

Okay, where's the digital 'tip jar'?  <smile>

Thank you,
Tamara 

ps: please try to enforce 'ego-control' while reading this. <grin> 

<<< Leon Brooks <leon at brooks.smileys.net>  8/31  6:33p >>>
Here was I thinking of the piece as discontinuous and uningenious, but the
feedback has all been positive:

    http://www.osopinion.com/Opinions/LeonBrooks/LeonBrooks7.html

Who here would like to collaborate on a Halloween Anniversary piece for OSO?
"Where we've come from there", touch on Mindcraft/Gartner etc and how even if
they had been unbiassed their results would now be unachievable. That kind of
thing?

I'd like to post an article from PLUG itself, rather than just an individual.

-- 
"I worry that the person who thought up Muzak may be thinking up
something else."
     --Lily Tomlin




From myk at golden.wattle.id.au  Fri Sep  1 10:29:19 2000
From: myk at golden.wattle.id.au (Mike Holland)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 10:29:19 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Disk space probs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0008311921280.1645-100000@ark.cs.curtin.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009011027150.1194-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>

Try,
du / | sort -n > usage ; tail -50 usage

If that fails,  'rm -rf /usr' should fix it.

-- 
Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
                          --==--



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep  1 10:47:07 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 10:47:07 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
References: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <39AF18AB.107929E5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

skribe wrote:
> 
> I just saw this on Slashdot.  O'Reilly has a user group program where they
> provide certain benefits to *UGs.  It's probably worth a look for PLUG
> (presuming it hasn't been examined before) despite some of the benefits
> being seemingly US-based, but the possibility of free books for the library
> sounds very attractive.
> 
> http://ug.oreilly.com/
> 
> skribe
> 

Sounds good.

The form does not make any reference to state, or country, in the
address, so I wonder whether it is available to UG's outside the USA.

If Matt or Tony contacted the denise contact person, who knows, maybe
they could organise something for the installfest, quite apart from an
ongoing relationship.

Given that O'Reilly has (or, I believe they have) the Perl book/CD set,
that I believe has previously been mentioned on this list, apart from
their other books, if their offered relationship extends outside the
USA, it could start a good relationship for PLUG (and, good public
relations for O'Reilly, with a "try before you buy" opportunity for any
of their books etc that could be part of the PLUG library).

A contact made by Matt or Tony, with their contact person, could also
include that O'Reilly books have previously been mentioned favourably by
name, as references, on this mailing list, and that, if the books were
available in the PLUG library, a "try before you buy" opportunity, such
as this, could result in sales of O'Reilly books, due to the "try before
you buy" opportunity, that may not otherwise occur.

That is, all appart from the opportunity, of O'Reilly providing giveaway
prizes for the installfest...

(Is there a Linux in a Nutshell book?)

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From colin at durbanet.co.za  Fri Sep  1 11:03:34 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 11:03:34 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
References: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au> <39AF18AB.107929E5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39AF1C86.4400785A@durbanet.co.za>

Bret Busby wrote:
> (Is there a Linux in a Nutshell book?)

Yes, and it's a great reference - in addition to Linux commands, it
covers (in a very concise form) shells, Perl, emacs, vi, pattern
matching, sed, gawk, cvs/rcs and a bunch of other stuff. Great for
jogging the memory if you're travelling or working on site and don't
want to lug fuller reference books around. Some of it's just man page
style, but sometimes that's easier to read in paper form.

Colin


From leon at lostrealm.com  Fri Sep  1 11:05:14 2000
From: leon at lostrealm.com (Leon Blackwell)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:05:14 +0800
Subject: [plug] Disk space probs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009011027150.1194-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>; from Mike Holland on Fri, Sep 01, 2000 at 10:29:19AM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0008311921280.1645-100000@ark.cs.curtin.edu.au> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009011027150.1194-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>
Message-ID: <20000901110514.A469@portal.lostrealm.com>

On Fri, Sep 01, 2000 at 10:29:19AM +0800, Mike Holland wrote:
> If that fails,  'rm -rf /usr' should fix it.

I assume this is a joke... right?
Definitely not a good solution... please, no one try this.


> du / | sort -n > usage ; tail -50 usage

Much simpler if you just do this:

du / | sort -n | tail -50

That'll save you having a temporary file laying about afterwards.
Although I usually find this much easier:

cd /
du -sh *

Look at the output, cd to the biggest directory and repeat until
you find the culprit, then:

rm -rf <nasty-big-thing-you-don't-want>

:)




-- 
 +----------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Leon Blackwell                       mailto:leon at lostrealm.com |
 | http://www.lostrealm.com/                         ICQ - 424725 |
 +----------------------------------------------------------------+


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep  1 11:31:43 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 11:31:43 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
References: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au> <39AF18AB.107929E5@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF1C86.4400785A@durbanet.co.za>
Message-ID: <39AF231F.EF87FDD@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Colin Muller wrote:
> 
> Bret Busby wrote:
> > (Is there a Linux in a Nutshell book?)
> 
> Yes, and it's a great reference - in addition to Linux commands, it
> covers (in a very concise form) shells, Perl, emacs, vi, pattern
> matching, sed, gawk, cvs/rcs and a bunch of other stuff. Great for
> jogging the memory if you're travelling or working on site and don't
> want to lug fuller reference books around. Some of it's just man page
> style, but sometimes that's easier to read in paper form.
> 
> Colin

Ah.

So, if O'Reilly's offer applied outside the USA, a few of these to be
given away at the installfest, could be quite good.

Any idea of the local pricing?

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From myk at golden.wattle.id.au  Fri Sep  1 11:39:56 2000
From: myk at golden.wattle.id.au (Mike Holland)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:39:56 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Disk space probs
In-Reply-To: <20000901110514.A469@portal.lostrealm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009011134510.1194-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>

On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, Leon Blackwell wrote:

> I assume this is a joke... right?
> Definitely not a good solution... please, no one try this.

Oh puh-lease. There is enough dumbing-down already. Let go of their hands.
 
> > du / | sort -n > usage ; tail -50 usage
> 
> Much simpler if you just do this:
> 
> du / | sort -n | tail -50

Not when it just took 5 minutes to du the entire 20GB drive, and you
realise that 50 lines wasnt enough.

> Look at the output, cd to the biggest directory and repeat until
> you find the culprit, then:

Isnt that rather tedious?
 

-- 
Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
                          --==--




From tony at cantech.net.au  Fri Sep  1 11:42:35 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:42:35 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Installfest
In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000831160643.00bb2760@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009011136370.24973-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Thu, 31 Aug 2000, skribe wrote:

> Has anyone added the info to the http://linevents.com/ site?

We should be on http://au.linevents.com/  BUT we dont seem to show 
up .... I've tried a couple of times.

Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au  Fri Sep  1 11:48:50 2000
From: Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au (Brian Tombleson)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:48:50 +0800
Subject: [plug] UPS & powerd
Message-ID: <034d01c013c7$8a175b20$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>

Hi List,

I've read the UPS-HOW and all the doco with powerd (powerd-2.0-1.i386.rpm)
for a "Liebert PowerSure" UPS I'm trying to get communicating with RedHat
6.2.

I've had a mail form their tech support saying essentially:

"pins 1 and 7 are low battery - pins 8 and 9 are on battery
When the UPS goes on battery a relay closes and pins 8 and 9 are shorted
together.
When UPS battery is low, pins 1 and 7 short together. So, you need to
monitor pins 8
and 9 for a closed circuit. "

What I can't work out is how this information relates to powerd's config.

My current config :

delay 2
serialline /dev/ttyS0
monitor CTS
failwhen high
pollingstep 2
asserthigh DTR

For some reason the daemon fails when I try turning on debug and I've tried
specifying a logfile but nothing is ever written to it.

Anyone had any experience with this?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Brian Tombleson






From leon at lostrealm.com  Fri Sep  1 11:50:42 2000
From: leon at lostrealm.com (Leon Blackwell)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:50:42 +0800
Subject: [plug] Disk space probs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009011134510.1194-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>; from Mike Holland on Fri, Sep 01, 2000 at 11:39:56AM +0800
References: <20000901110514.A469@portal.lostrealm.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009011134510.1194-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>
Message-ID: <20000901115041.B469@portal.lostrealm.com>

On Fri, Sep 01, 2000 at 11:39:56AM +0800, Mike Holland wrote:
> Oh puh-lease. There is enough dumbing-down already. Let go of their hands.

It's not dumbing down... it's simply not lying about what is and
isn't a good idea.  I'm sure there was a time when you didn't
know what you were doing, either.  If you don't want to help the
newbies, feel free not to  :)


> Not when it just took 5 minutes to du the entire 20GB drive, and you
> realise that 50 lines wasnt enough.

Okay...  point taken.  But you'll find that the next du will work
much faster, anyhow, since much of the filesystem will be cached.


> > Look at the output, cd to the biggest directory and repeat until
> > you find the culprit, then:
> 
> Isnt that rather tedious?

Well, kinda  :)

Once again, good for newbies, though... you get to learn the layout
of your filesystem fairly well.  TMTOWTDI  :)



-- 
 +----------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Leon Blackwell                       mailto:leon at lostrealm.com |
 | http://www.lostrealm.com/                         ICQ - 424725 |
 +----------------------------------------------------------------+


From tony at cantech.net.au  Fri Sep  1 11:51:36 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:51:36 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009011151070.24973-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, skribe wrote:

> I just saw this on Slashdot.  O'Reilly has a user group program where they 
> provide certain benefits to *UGs.  It's probably worth a look for PLUG 
> (presuming it hasn't been examined before) despite some of the benefits 
> being seemingly US-based, but the possibility of free books for the library 
> sounds very attractive.

Thanks I've contaced them and look forward to geting more details.

Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From colin at durbanet.co.za  Fri Sep  1 11:51:50 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 11:51:50 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
References: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au> <39AF18AB.107929E5@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF1C86.4400785A@durbanet.co.za> <39AF231F.EF87FDD@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39AF27D6.DD6A1615@durbanet.co.za>

Bret Busby wrote:

> Any idea of the local pricing?

[of linux in a nutshell]

Nope, sorry. Boffins (phone no at http://www.boffinsbookshop.com.au/ )
could give it to you over the phone.

Colin


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep  1 11:51:58 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 11:51:58 +0800
Subject: [plug] Disk space probs
References: <20000901110514.A469@portal.lostrealm.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009011134510.1194-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au> <20000901115041.B469@portal.lostrealm.com>
Message-ID: <39AF27DE.A17F482@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Leon Blackwell wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Sep 01, 2000 at 11:39:56AM +0800, Mike Holland wrote:
> > Oh puh-lease. There is enough dumbing-down already. Let go of their hands.
> 
> It's not dumbing down... it's simply not lying about what is and
> isn't a good idea.  I'm sure there was a time when you didn't
> know what you were doing, either.  If you don't want to help the
> newbies, feel free not to  :)

So, who takes responsibility, if some smart person posts a message of
the nature of the rm -rf ..., and, some poor person who actually
believes that advice posted, is posted in good faith, uses such
commands, and stuffs up their system?

> 
> > Not when it just took 5 minutes to du the entire 20GB drive, and you
> > realise that 50 lines wasnt enough.
> 
> Okay...  point taken.  But you'll find that the next du will work
> much faster, anyhow, since much of the filesystem will be cached.
> 

Why not use du -s, progressively down?


-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep  1 11:54:37 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 11:54:37 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
References: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au> <39AF18AB.107929E5@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF1C86.4400785A@durbanet.co.za> <39AF231F.EF87FDD@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF27D6.DD6A1615@durbanet.co.za>
Message-ID: <39AF287D.E86D8A82@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Colin Muller wrote:
> 
> Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > Any idea of the local pricing?
> 
> [of linux in a nutshell]
> 
> Nope, sorry. Boffins (phone no at http://www.boffinsbookshop.com.au/ )
> could give it to you over the phone.
> 
> Colin

Pity their web site isn't a bit more useful (like including price lists,
etc), but, they had advised me previously, that they wanted no part of
the Internet, and no Internet presence.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From colin at durbanet.co.za  Fri Sep  1 12:06:44 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 12:06:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
References: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au> <39AF18AB.107929E5@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF1C86.4400785A@durbanet.co.za> <39AF231F.EF87FDD@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF27D6.DD6A1615@durbanet.co.za> <39AF287D.E86D8A82@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39AF2B54.D98D39EB@durbanet.co.za>

Bret Busby wrote:

> Pity their web site isn't a bit more useful (like including price lists,
> etc), but, they had advised me previously, that they wanted no part of
> the Internet, and no Internet presence.

Bizarre, given they have a great stock of books relevant to the Net. I
agree entirely about the site. You could try http://www.nedkelly.com.au/
- a WA company (Cottesloe, if I remember correctly). Their on-line book
catalogue was not huge last time I looked, but, like Boffins, they're
very helpful (responded very quickly and efficiently to email queries
from me).

Colin


From gherardi at ark.cs.curtin.edu.au  Fri Sep  1 12:51:18 2000
From: gherardi at ark.cs.curtin.edu.au (Carl Gherardi)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 12:51:18 +0800 (WST)
Subject: OT personal whinge Re: [plug] Disk space probs
In-Reply-To: <39AF27DE.A17F482@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009011204240.18782-100000@ark.cs.curtin.edu.au>


I must admit i find the thread(and several others in the last week) a
little offensive. I've had enough experience to know to chack to man pages
before executing a command i dont recognize, but others can and will be
trusting (see Community hacking thread). I _really_ dont see the point in
posting destructive commands.

I personally have used several variants of unix for about 4 years. All
the systems i had used up until the start of this year had been set up
nicely before hand. As a result I know how to keep track of my home area
and the little nasties that pop up from time to time but little else.

I was running windows 9* and got sick of proprietry crap that i was forced
to download and crack to get any use out of, for this reason I changed. I
joined plug in the hope that in the learning curve of administering my
system I could get some quick help if I ran into any problems.

For the most part you've been helpful, my display problems were solved and
I learned several things while it was being done. In fact the last Monday
night meeting helped my self esteem a little when noone could get my sound
to work ;)

But there are posts to the group which are annoying and serve little
purpose(including this one i guess). A prime example is a couple of
responses to Skribe about Security. This was a thread i was most
interested in, as i had no idea myself, and was frustrated until x posts
later when skribe responded "Gimme some URL's!" *muttering about blood
from a stone* An informative response came soon after.

Not all of us are gurus. Not all of us are willing to wade through 4000
web sites to get information - especially when many people could just say
"I found http://x.x.x/ very useful" RTFWP and see if that doesn't sort you
out.

Carl



From garth at cclinic.com.au  Fri Sep  1 13:14:20 2000
From: garth at cclinic.com.au (Garth Atkinson)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 13:14:20 +0800
Subject: [plug] UPS & powerd
References: <034d01c013c7$8a175b20$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>
Message-ID: <39AF3B2C.8F8ADC30@cclinic.com.au>

Hi Brian

The blurb from tech support means that the Liebert does not use a
standard serial cable to communicate with a PC. You might be out of
luck getting this to work with a PC serial port. Do Liebert sell
special UPS serial cards?


Brian Tombleson wrote:
> 
> Hi List,
> 
> I've read the UPS-HOW and all the doco with powerd (powerd-2.0-1.i386.rpm)
> for a "Liebert PowerSure" UPS I'm trying to get communicating with RedHat
> 6.2.
> 
> I've had a mail form their tech support saying essentially:
> 
> "pins 1 and 7 are low battery - pins 8 and 9 are on battery
> When the UPS goes on battery a relay closes and pins 8 and 9 are shorted
> together.
> When UPS battery is low, pins 1 and 7 short together. So, you need to
> monitor pins 8
> and 9 for a closed circuit. "
> 
> What I can't work out is how this information relates to powerd's config.
> 
> My current config :
> 
> delay 2
> serialline /dev/ttyS0
> monitor CTS
> failwhen high
> pollingstep 2
> asserthigh DTR
> 
> For some reason the daemon fails when I try turning on debug and I've tried
> specifying a logfile but nothing is ever written to it.
> 
> Anyone had any experience with this?
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Regards,
> Brian Tombleson


From Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au  Fri Sep  1 13:20:18 2000
From: Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au (Brian Tombleson)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 13:20:18 +0800
Subject: [plug] UPS & powerd
References: <034d01c013c7$8a175b20$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au> <39AF3B2C.8F8ADC30@cclinic.com.au>
Message-ID: <037301c013d4$51c19710$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>

It comes with a (serial?) cable that says it plugs into a standard serial
port .. (re-checking doco..) .. "communicate to your computer via your DB-9
communication port" .. yep.

They also have some software available off the net, but it requires Java
Virtual Machine for RH-Linux.  :( .. which I don't want to worry about on a
supposedly dedicated comms server.

Thus trying with powerd.

Thanks for you help anyway, I'll have to try something else for now.

- Brian.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Garth Atkinson" <garth at cclinic.com.au>
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 1:14 PM


> The blurb from tech support means that the Liebert does not use a
> standard serial cable to communicate with a PC. You might be out of
> luck getting this to work with a PC serial port. Do Liebert sell
> special UPS serial cards?
>
>
> Brian Tombleson wrote:
> > I've had a mail form their tech support saying essentially:
> >
> > "pins 1 and 7 are low battery - pins 8 and 9 are on battery
> > When the UPS goes on battery a relay closes and pins 8 and 9 are shorted
> > together.
> > When UPS battery is low, pins 1 and 7 short together. So, you need to
> > monitor pins 8
> > and 9 for a closed circuit. "
> >
> > What I can't work out is how this information relates to powerd's
config.
> >
> > My current config :
> >
> > delay 2
> > serialline /dev/ttyS0
> > monitor CTS
> > failwhen high
> > pollingstep 2
> > asserthigh DTR
> >
> > For some reason the daemon fails when I try turning on debug and I've
tried
> > specifying a logfile but nothing is ever written to it.
> >
> > Anyone had any experience with this?
> >
> > Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Brian Tombleson
>



From kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au  Fri Sep  1 13:29:19 2000
From: kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au (Shackleton, Kevin)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 13:29:19 +0800 
Subject: [plug] UPS & powerd
Message-ID: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919DA5A10@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>

The first question I'd ask is what's your cable?

I think basic UPS' usually work by asserting or not the handshaking lines.
Which are, in 25-pin mode: the "data terminal equipment" (DTE - the PC)
would normally assert pin 20 (DTR) and pin 4 (RTS), while the "data
communication equipment" (DCE - the modem) would assert pin 6 (DSR) and pin
5 (CTS).  Asserting means pulling to +12 V from the normal -12 V.  You can
look up the 9-pin equivalents in the back of electronics catalogues or
around the web.

If this is how it's done, then you would have to:
1) set one PC handshaking line high and one low ("assertlow RTS"?)
2) connect the correct DCE handshaking line (CTS, from the sound of your
config) to the one  DTE line via biassing resistors (1 K would do) and to
the other line via the relay contacts.

Are you lost?  Must be the way I explained it.

K.

> ----------
> From: 	Brian Tombleson[SMTP:Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au]
> Reply To: 	plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Sent: 	Friday, 1 September 2000 11:44
> To: 	plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Subject: 	[plug] UPS & powerd
> 
> Hi List,
> 
> I've read the UPS-HOW and all the doco with powerd (powerd-2.0-1.i386.rpm)
> for a "Liebert PowerSure" UPS I'm trying to get communicating with RedHat
> 6.2.
> 
> I've had a mail form their tech support saying essentially:
> 
> "pins 1 and 7 are low battery - pins 8 and 9 are on battery
> When the UPS goes on battery a relay closes and pins 8 and 9 are shorted
> together.
> When UPS battery is low, pins 1 and 7 short together. So, you need to
> monitor pins 8
> and 9 for a closed circuit. "
> 
> What I can't work out is how this information relates to powerd's config.
> 
> My current config :
> 
> delay 2
> serialline /dev/ttyS0
> monitor CTS
> failwhen high
> pollingstep 2
> asserthigh DTR
> 
> For some reason the daemon fails when I try turning on debug and I've
> tried
> specifying a logfile but nothing is ever written to it.
> 
> Anyone had any experience with this?
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Regards,
> Brian Tombleson
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep  1 13:35:57 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 13:35:57 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
References: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au> <39AF18AB.107929E5@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF1C86.4400785A@durbanet.co.za> <39AF231F.EF87FDD@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF27D6.DD6A1615@durbanet.co.za> <39AF287D.E86D8A82@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF2B54.D98D39EB@durbanet.co.za>
Message-ID: <39AF403D.DA1CF065@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Colin Muller wrote:
> 
> Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > Pity their web site isn't a bit more useful (like including price lists,
> > etc), but, they had advised me previously, that they wanted no part of
> > the Internet, and no Internet presence.
> 
> Bizarre, given they have a great stock of books relevant to the Net. I
> agree entirely about the site. You could try http://www.nedkelly.com.au/
> - a WA company (Cottesloe, if I remember correctly). Their on-line book
> catalogue was not huge last time I looked, but, like Boffins, they're
> very helpful (responded very quickly and efficiently to email queries
> from me).
> 
> Colin


Yep, it's there.... $42.04 (anyone still got any two cent coins, or, do
they still have one cent coins?).

Thanks for the pointer.

While their information about the books could possibly be expanded a
little (like amazon, eg, no. of pages, includes CD, etc, and, also,
where a book includes, or, refers to, a Linux distribution, the version
number would be useful; cf
http://www.nedkelly.com.au/books/book.asp?ISBN=0764506633 , the Red Hat
Linux for Dummies book, of which I have seen a copy, with the RH 6.1
CD,  for $40.60, which is about $5.50 more expensive than the nedkelly
price, at the Murdoch Uni bookshop,), the website, and therefore, the
bookshop, appear to be useful.

Unfortunately, while Boffins in the past, may have provided good
service, shortcomings like the lack of a website like the nedkelly one,
or, even an email address, to which to send queries, will likely mean
that they lose potential trade, to bookshops that show that they do keep
up with the times.

I will have to have a look at a copy of the book, sometime.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Fri Sep  1 13:40:02 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 13:40:02 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] UPS & powerd
In-Reply-To: <39AF3B2C.8F8ADC30@cclinic.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000901133010.16280G-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

Brian Tombleson wrote:

> "pins 1 and 7 are low battery - pins 8 and 9 are on battery
> When the UPS goes on battery a relay closes and pins 8 and 9 are shorted
> together.
> When UPS battery is low, pins 1 and 7 short together. So, you need to
> monitor pins 8
> and 9 for a closed circuit. "

The problem is, pin 8 is CTS, pin 9 is Ring Indicator - both of which are
normally set high or low by the remote device (eg modem) - so shorting the
2 together isn't going to make any difference because there is no power
coming in anywhere.

Probably the easiest way would be to modify a serial cable so pin 9 is
really connected to pin 7, because pin 7 (RTS = Ready To Send) is normally
set high by the PC, so you can detect it has been shorted with pin 8 when
that (CTS = Clear To Send) goes high.

I've even got some Perl software I wrote (based it on statserial.c) that
will detect when pins 8 and 9 are shorted, that I can send you if you're
interested.

Also, if you run "statserial" it will tell you what each pin is called,
and whether it is currently high or low.

 - Matt



From colin at durbanet.co.za  Fri Sep  1 14:00:15 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:00:15 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
References: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au> <39AF18AB.107929E5@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF1C86.4400785A@durbanet.co.za> <39AF231F.EF87FDD@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF27D6.DD6A1615@durbanet.co.za> <39AF287D.E86D8A82@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF2B54.D98D39EB@durbanet.co.za> <39AF403D.DA1CF065@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39AF45EF.8E6F3F82@durbanet.co.za>

Bret Busby wrote:

> http://www.nedkelly.com.au/books/book.asp?ISBN=0764506633 , the Red Hat
> Linux for Dummies book, of which I have seen a copy, with the RH 6.1
> CD,  for $40.60, which is about $5.50 more expensive than the nedkelly
> price, at the Murdoch Uni bookshop,), the website, and therefore, the
> bookshop, appear to be useful.

Just be aware of the delivery costs - not sure what they would amount
to. One thing I like about nedkelly is that on top of the selling
business, they're also publishing local-interest content - an
interesting way of trying to combine the neighbourly strength of local
businesses with the breadth of selection and ease of ordering that the
Net brings. The site has its technical problems, but based on my
experience of them to date, I think they're well worth supporting. And
no, I don't have shares :).

> Unfortunately, while Boffins in the past, may have provided good
> service, shortcomings like the lack of a website like the nedkelly one,
> or, even an email address, to which to send queries, will likely mean
> that they lose potential trade, to bookshops that show that they do keep
> up with the times.

Yes - they're nuts to be thinking like that.

> I will have to have a look at a copy of the book, sometime.

If you don't come across a more convenient place to look at it, you're
welcome to thumb through my copy. I'm not far from UWA (all hours - I
work from home) - feel free to drop me a line if you're heading that
way.

Colin


From skribe at amber.com.au  Fri Sep  1 14:17:14 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:17:14 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
In-Reply-To: <39AF45EF.8E6F3F82@durbanet.co.za>
References: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au>
 <39AF18AB.107929E5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
 <39AF1C86.4400785A@durbanet.co.za>
 <39AF231F.EF87FDD@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
 <39AF27D6.DD6A1615@durbanet.co.za>
 <39AF287D.E86D8A82@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
 <39AF2B54.D98D39EB@durbanet.co.za>
 <39AF403D.DA1CF065@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000901140416.00bdc680@amber.com.au>

At 14:00 1/09/00, Colin Muller wrote:
> > Unfortunately, while Boffins in the past, may have provided good
> > service, shortcomings like the lack of a website like the nedkelly one,
> > or, even an email address, to which to send queries, will likely mean
> > that they lose potential trade, to bookshops that show that they do keep
> > up with the times.
>
>Yes - they're nuts to be thinking like that.

Perhaps, but I'm certain that it all comes down to their bottom 
line.  Designing and running an online bookshop isn't cheap in time or 
money.  If they believe the amount of extra sales they'll generate through 
the web site isn't going to compensate them sufficiently, then they'd be 
foolish to do it.

Personally, I believe that a combination of the GST and the overseas online 
bookstores will kill all but the biggest of the local stores.  Spending 
$A100 for a book I can get for $A60 doesn't encourage me to buy 
locally.  If the dollar continues to plummet that could change, of 
course.  But even then, buying books in the eastern states is cheaper than 
buying them here.  It's ridiculous.

As always, YMMV.

skribe
	Purity:                           62.0% 			
	Corruption:                    38.0%	
	Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
	Weirdness factor:           31%
	Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
	Medieval Career:            Black Knight	



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep  1 14:24:44 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:24:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
References: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au> <39AF18AB.107929E5@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF1C86.4400785A@durbanet.co.za> <39AF231F.EF87FDD@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF27D6.DD6A1615@durbanet.co.za> <39AF287D.E86D8A82@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF2B54.D98D39EB@durbanet.co.za> <39AF403D.DA1CF065@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF45EF.8E6F3F82@durbanet.co.za>
Message-ID: <39AF4BAC.3F7A612F@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Colin Muller wrote:
> 
> Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > http://www.nedkelly.com.au/books/book.asp?ISBN=0764506633 , the Red Hat
> > Linux for Dummies book, of which I have seen a copy, with the RH 6.1
> > CD,  for $40.60, which is about $5.50 more expensive than the nedkelly
> > price, at the Murdoch Uni bookshop,), the website, and therefore, the
> > bookshop, appear to be useful.
> 
> Just be aware of the delivery costs - not sure what they would amount
> to. One thing I like about nedkelly is that on top of the selling
> business, they're also publishing local-interest content - an
> interesting way of trying to combine the neighbourly strength of local
> businesses with the breadth of selection and ease of ordering that the
> Net brings. The site has its technical problems, but based on my
> experience of them to date, I think they're well worth supporting. And
> no, I don't have shares :).

Delivery costs (from their website) - $6 total, for up to 10 books -
cheaper than driving from Armadale to Perth (or, to Murdoch uni, I
think). And, apart from the point about the technical dificulties (I
have only visited them once, and had a look around), I agree with what
you have said above. I note that they have a reference to PLUG, in their
community organisations -> computer clubs web page, which is good. I
prefer to support local business, when they have a decent Internet
presence, and, this enterprise seems good, with their support for the
local community. (Would they be interested, in having a display of books
at the installfest, with perhaps, some giveaways, or, discounts? Anyone
thought of approaching them, with the suggestion?)

> 
> > Unfortunately, while Boffins in the past, may have provided good
> > service, shortcomings like the lack of a website like the nedkelly one,
> > or, even an email address, to which to send queries, will likely mean
> > that they lose potential trade, to bookshops that show that they do keep
> > up with the times.
> 
> Yes - they're nuts to be thinking like that.
> 
> > I will have to have a look at a copy of the book, sometime.
> 
> If you don't come across a more convenient place to look at it, you're
> welcome to thumb through my copy. I'm not far from UWA (all hours - I
> work from home) - feel free to drop me a line if you're heading that
> way.
> 
> Colin


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep  1 14:53:59 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:53:59 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
References: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au>
	 <39AF18AB.107929E5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
	 <39AF1C86.4400785A@durbanet.co.za>
	 <39AF231F.EF87FDD@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
	 <39AF27D6.DD6A1615@durbanet.co.za>
	 <39AF287D.E86D8A82@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
	 <39AF2B54.D98D39EB@durbanet.co.za>
	 <39AF403D.DA1CF065@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <4.3.0.20000901140416.00bdc680@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <39AF5287.B8240F91@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

skribe wrote:
> 
> At 14:00 1/09/00, Colin Muller wrote:
> > > Unfortunately, while Boffins in the past, may have provided good
> > > service, shortcomings like the lack of a website like the nedkelly one,
> > > or, even an email address, to which to send queries, will likely mean
> > > that they lose potential trade, to bookshops that show that they do keep
> > > up with the times.
> >
> >Yes - they're nuts to be thinking like that.
> 
> Perhaps, but I'm certain that it all comes down to their bottom
> line.  Designing and running an online bookshop isn't cheap in time or
> money.  If they believe the amount of extra sales they'll generate through
> the web site isn't going to compensate them sufficiently, then they'd be
> foolish to do it.
> 
> Personally, I believe that a combination of the GST and the overseas online
> bookstores will kill all but the biggest of the local stores.  Spending
> $A100 for a book I can get for $A60 doesn't encourage me to buy
> locally.  If the dollar continues to plummet that could change, of
> course.  But even then, buying books in the eastern states is cheaper than
> buying them here.  It's ridiculous.
> 
> As always, YMMV.
> 
> skribe
>       

How do the prices at nedkelly, compare with the prices from your
supplier?

I have bought from amazon, in the past, and, started an amazon affiliate
thing on our website (we haven't made any money from it yet - not many
visit our website), but, with the ozzie dollar dropping so low (about 57
USA cents, with the combination of book prices and shipping costs from
the USA, local sources start to appear more competitive. We have bought
two books, costing us $180 from amazon, which would have costs us $300,
if we had bought them locally, and, if they were available in oz (which
they were not), but, from what I understand, some local bookshops are
starting to get competitive, and, are, like nedkelly, catching up to the
1990's, by having Internet trading in their merchandise.


From thomasa at wa.switch.aust.com  Fri Sep  1 15:01:09 2000
From: thomasa at wa.switch.aust.com (Thomas, Andre)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 15:01:09 +0800 
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE107FF6F@EXCHANGE>

What is sadder is the fact that buying a book that would cost AUS$90
here in Perth is allot dearer than buying one from the US at a cost of
AUS$50 including shipping.  Now that is ridiculous.

-Andr?

  [>insert banner here<]

-----Original Message-----
From: skribe [mailto:skribe at amber.com.au]
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 2:17 PM
To: plug at plug.linux.org.au
Subject: Re: [plug] O'Reilly


At 14:00 1/09/00, Colin Muller wrote:
> > Unfortunately, while Boffins in the past, may have provided good
> > service, shortcomings like the lack of a website like the nedkelly
one,
> > or, even an email address, to which to send queries, will likely
mean
> > that they lose potential trade, to bookshops that show that they do
keep
> > up with the times.
>
>Yes - they're nuts to be thinking like that.

Perhaps, but I'm certain that it all comes down to their bottom 
line.  Designing and running an online bookshop isn't cheap in time or 
money.  If they believe the amount of extra sales they'll generate
through 
the web site isn't going to compensate them sufficiently, then they'd be

foolish to do it.

Personally, I believe that a combination of the GST and the overseas
online 
bookstores will kill all but the biggest of the local stores.  Spending 
$A100 for a book I can get for $A60 doesn't encourage me to buy 
locally.  If the dollar continues to plummet that could change, of 
course.  But even then, buying books in the eastern states is cheaper
than 
buying them here.  It's ridiculous.

As always, YMMV.

skribe
	Purity:                           62.0% 			
	Corruption:                    38.0%	
	Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
	Weirdness factor:           31%
	Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
	Medieval Career:            Black Knight	



From colin at durbanet.co.za  Fri Sep  1 15:04:08 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 15:04:08 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
References: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au> <39AF18AB.107929E5@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF1C86.4400785A@durbanet.co.za> <39AF231F.EF87FDD@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF27D6.DD6A1615@durbanet.co.za> <39AF287D.E86D8A82@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF2B54.D98D39EB@durbanet.co.za> <39AF403D.DA1CF065@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF45EF.8E6F3F82@durbanet.co.za> <39AF4BAC.3F7A612F@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39AF54E8.7F537B0E@durbanet.co.za>

Bret Busby wrote:
> >From the email address, I assumed that you were on safari, in the deep,
> dark, african jungle, looking for Dr Livingstone, or a 100 carrot
> diamond, or something.

Heh. We have a second home in Durban. I have a .au address, but haven't
set things up for multiple email id's on the sending side, so the .za is
what I'm usually using.
 
> I don't get over that way (UWA), often, now that my car is not well,
> but, if you happened to be at the installfest, which I am hoping to
> attend...

I'll certainly bring the book if I get there. Work's been a bit of a
seven-day-a-week affair recently, so I can't be sure.

I see there's a third edition out just last month - I have the second
edition. The new edition seems to have dropped the Perl chapter, but has
added Gnome and KDE plus some other stuff. The table of contents, and a
sample chapter on rpm an deb, are linked from:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxnut3/

Colin


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep  1 15:15:19 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 15:15:19 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
References: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au> <39AF18AB.107929E5@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF1C86.4400785A@durbanet.co.za> <39AF231F.EF87FDD@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF27D6.DD6A1615@durbanet.co.za> <39AF287D.E86D8A82@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF2B54.D98D39EB@durbanet.co.za> <39AF403D.DA1CF065@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF45EF.8E6F3F82@durbanet.co.za> <39AF4BAC.3F7A612F@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF54E8.7F537B0E@durbanet.co.za>
Message-ID: <39AF5787.5E5E5419@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Colin Muller wrote:
> 
> Bret Busby wrote:
> > >From the email address, I assumed that you were on safari, in the deep,
> > dark, african jungle, looking for Dr Livingstone, or a 100 carrot
> > diamond, or something.
> 
> Heh. We have a second home in Durban. I have a .au address, but haven't
> set things up for multiple email id's on the sending side, so the .za is
> what I'm usually using.
> 
> > I don't get over that way (UWA), often, now that my car is not well,
> > but, if you happened to be at the installfest, which I am hoping to
> > attend...
> 
> I'll certainly bring the book if I get there. Work's been a bit of a
> seven-day-a-week affair recently, so I can't be sure.
> 
> I see there's a third edition out just last month - I have the second
> edition. The new edition seems to have dropped the Perl chapter, but has
> added Gnome and KDE plus some other stuff. The table of contents, and a
> sample chapter on rpm an deb, are linked from:
> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxnut3/
> 
> Colin

Perhaps, bookshop websites, such as nedkelly, could include such URL's,
in their information pages about the books. I think amazon already does.

The same URL, with a "2" subtituted for the "3", gives the 2nd edition
site, so the TOC's can be compared.

Pity about the Perl chapter. Without having seen the content of it, it
sounds like it could have been useful.

What do they mean, "An Alternative Window manager: fvwm2"? I thought the
others were alternative ones!@ I use fvwm2 (or fvwm95; I think is the
same thing?), on my RH 5.2. I thought that was the more standard one.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From colin at durbanet.co.za  Fri Sep  1 15:28:22 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 15:28:22 +0800
Subject: [plug] On-line bookshops
References: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au>
	 <39AF18AB.107929E5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
	 <39AF1C86.4400785A@durbanet.co.za>
	 <39AF231F.EF87FDD@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
	 <39AF27D6.DD6A1615@durbanet.co.za>
	 <39AF287D.E86D8A82@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
	 <39AF2B54.D98D39EB@durbanet.co.za>
	 <39AF403D.DA1CF065@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <4.3.0.20000901140416.00bdc680@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <39AF5A96.A60E03BC@durbanet.co.za>

skribe wrote:

> Perhaps, but I'm certain that it all comes down to their bottom
> line.  Designing and running an online bookshop isn't cheap in time or
> money.  If they believe the amount of extra sales they'll generate through
> the web site isn't going to compensate them sufficiently, then they'd be
> foolish to do it.

Agreed, but I think there's room to establish a solid on-line presence
without spending an undue amount of time or money on it. A tightly
focused catalogue of, say, WA-related books could give a shop like
Boffins a really good on-line presence, and people would immediately
start emailing them for other titles - the handling of which would cost
no more than the handling of phone queries.

Working from a restricted-size special-interest catalogue, they could
establish a convincing presence using Linux, Apache, OpenSSL and
Minivend on a co-located server, paying for an x86 server with 256MB
RAM, perhaps a month's worth of Web development time, co-lo costs and
minimal monthly sysdamin, and hitting the black within the first year if
it sells them three books a day @ $75 each (assuming a one-third markup,
which I seem to recall is the standard on books). They don't need to set
up the book-buying infrastructure or anything like that - they're doing
all that already.

Of course, they've probably spoken to someone who told them they need a
50-user NT/SQL server licence on a 4-CPU Gee-Whiz, expensive proprietary
shopping cart software, a permanent 128K connection and lots of Shock,
Flash and RealVideo.

Colin


From colin at durbanet.co.za  Fri Sep  1 15:37:05 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 15:37:05 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
References: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au> <39AF18AB.107929E5@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF1C86.4400785A@durbanet.co.za> <39AF231F.EF87FDD@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF27D6.DD6A1615@durbanet.co.za> <39AF287D.E86D8A82@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF2B54.D98D39EB@durbanet.co.za> <39AF403D.DA1CF065@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF45EF.8E6F3F82@durbanet.co.za> <39AF4BAC.3F7A612F@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF54E8.7F537B0E@durbanet.co.za> <39AF5787.5E5E5419@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39AF5CA1.57D67B5F@durbanet.co.za>

Bret Busby wrote:
> Pity about the Perl chapter. Without having seen the content of it, it
> sounds like it could have been useful.

It's probably the chapter I use most. There is a Perl quick reference
which O'Reilly sold and which could be freely downloaded from the Web as
a .ps to print out:
http://www.squirrel.nl/people/jvromans/perlref.html
Haven't looked at it in a while, but I think the Nutshell chapter was
based on it.

> What do they mean, "An Alternative Window manager: fvwm2"? I thought the
> others were alternative ones!@ I use fvwm2 (or fvwm95; I think is the
> same thing?), on my RH 5.2. I thought that was the more standard one.

I think RH is defaulting to Gnome and Enlightenment now. I imagine
they'll end up with HelixGnome and SawFish once the latter is stable.

Colin


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep  1 15:39:32 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 15:39:32 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
References: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE107FF6F@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <39AF5D34.DC056B97@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

"Thomas, Andre" wrote:
> 
> What is sadder is the fact that buying a book that would cost AUS$90
> here in Perth is allot dearer than buying one from the US at a cost of
> AUS$50 including shipping.  Now that is ridiculous.
> 
> -Andr?
> 

Just out of interest, I have just checked the amazon prices for Linux in
a Nutshell. These are their prices, not the recommended prices.
2nd edition: 23.96 USD
3rd edition: 27.96 USD

Allowing for an AUD:USD exchange rate of 0.57, the 23.96 USD becomes
42.04 AUD.

As stated in my previous email, the nedkelly price for the book (edition
unkown), is 42.04 AUD.

That is not including shipping, which, from memory, was something like 7
USD per order, plus 6 USD per book, for orders placed with amazon,
compared with a flat 6 AUD, for up to 10 books, within Perth, ordered
from nedkelly.

So, it appears that, with their absorption of the GST, nedkelly is
competitive with amazon.

I think that's worth considering...

And, neither do I have any shares, or commercial interest in
nedkelly.com.au; just personal objevtive interest in competitive prices
for wanted items. (Apart from the support for a local business that also
supports the local community)

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep  1 15:48:51 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 15:48:51 +0800
Subject: [plug] O'Reilly
References: <4.3.0.20000901083523.00bdaa00@amber.com.au> <39AF18AB.107929E5@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF1C86.4400785A@durbanet.co.za> <39AF231F.EF87FDD@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF27D6.DD6A1615@durbanet.co.za> <39AF287D.E86D8A82@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF2B54.D98D39EB@durbanet.co.za> <39AF403D.DA1CF065@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF45EF.8E6F3F82@durbanet.co.za> <39AF4BAC.3F7A612F@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF54E8.7F537B0E@durbanet.co.za> <39AF5787.5E5E5419@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39AF5CA1.57D67B5F@durbanet.co.za>
Message-ID: <39AF5F63.2931F13C@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Colin Muller wrote:
> 
> Bret Busby wrote:
> > Pity about the Perl chapter. Without having seen the content of it, it
> > sounds like it could have been useful.
> 
> It's probably the chapter I use most. There is a Perl quick reference
> which O'Reilly sold and which could be freely downloaded from the Web as
> a .ps to print out:
> http://www.squirrel.nl/people/jvromans/perlref.html
> Haven't looked at it in a while, but I think the Nutshell chapter was
> based on it.
> 

Also, importantly, on that web page, is a link to the PDF version (which
is now printing...), at http://www.libera.com/perl/quickref.pdf

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Fri Sep  1 16:02:12 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 16:02:12 +0800
Subject: [plug] Disk space probs
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009011134510.1194-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>
Message-ID: <39AF6284.C92AC9B7@brooks.smileys.net>

Mike Holland wrote:
> Isnt that rather tedious?

Easy to automate:

    DEVICE=/dev/hdxX
    DEVRE=$(echo -n $DEVICE | sed -e 's|/|\\/|g')
    MOUNTED=$(mount | gawk "/^$DEVRE/ { print \$3 }")
    while [ $(df -m $MOUNTED | gawk "/^$DEVRE/ { print \$4 }") -lt 10 ]; do
        rm -f $(du -m $MOUNTED | sort -n | tail -1 | gawk '{ print $2 }')
    done

Wouldn't take much more to add a bytes-saved counter. (-:

-- 
"But these [serious NT security flaws] are not inherent flaws in the
 operating system -- they don't happen by accident. They are the result
 of deliberate and well-thought-out efforts." -- Mike Nash, Microsoft


From alpha at indigo.net.au  Fri Sep  1 17:32:39 2000
From: alpha at indigo.net.au (Joshua Pierre)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 17:32:39 +0800
Subject: [plug] web site
Message-ID: <20000901173239.A4627@indigo.net.au>

List,

I am putting the finishing content into the plug site (Finally) and I require some more information on plug members.

So if you could email me a little bio of yourself with your name email and bit of info.

Cheers

-- 
Joshua Pierre		Indigo Networks - Technical Support
alpha at indigo.net.au	http://www.indigo.net.au



From kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au  Fri Sep  1 17:56:45 2000
From: kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au (Shackleton, Kevin)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 17:56:45 +0800 
Subject: [plug] web site
Message-ID: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919DA5ACB@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>

Am I a member?

Kevin Shackleton
Work for Agriculture WA, Carnarvon - Rangeland Technician plus IT Officer.
Age 45
Male: + partner, daughters 16 & 1 y.o.
Hobbies: brewing, consuming brew, electrical things, wood things.
Experience: network cabling, fixing PCs, Pascal, Delphi, mapping/GPS.
Attempting to learn: Linux, HC11
Qualifications: Matric, shotfirer's licence (for REALLY fixing PCs)
Neatest possession: Fluke 123 scopemeter - she's a beaut.


Use or throw away . .

K


> ----------
> From: 	Joshua Pierre[SMTP:alpha at indigo.net.au]
> Reply To: 	plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Sent: 	Friday, 1 September 2000 17:28
> To: 	plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Subject: 	[plug] web site
> 
> List,
> 
> I am putting the finishing content into the plug site (Finally) and I
> require some more information on plug members.
> 
> So if you could email me a little bio of yourself with your name email and
> bit of info.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> -- 
> Joshua Pierre		Indigo Networks - Technical Support
> alpha at indigo.net.au	http://www.indigo.net.au
> 
> 


From chris at bizzpro.com.au  Fri Sep  1 17:19:40 2000
From: chris at bizzpro.com.au (Chris Crawford)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 17:19:40 +0800
Subject: [plug] Linux Services W.A
Message-ID: <39AF74AB.7CCE2590@bizzpro.com.au>

The new web site for Linux Services W.A is up now
http://www.linuxwa.com.au
I need some more ideas on the site and what we should be selling
Books
cd's
and so on

--
Chris Crawford
IT Manager
Linux Services W.A


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From andrew.mcmeikan at mitswa.com.au  Fri Sep  1 17:43:34 2000
From: andrew.mcmeikan at mitswa.com.au (McMeikan, Andrew)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 17:43:34 +0800 
Subject: [plug] web site
Message-ID: <54A50136B6CAD3118FBD00C00D00DDEF037296@mits_perth_com1.mitswa.com.au>

You know I have not paid up for a long time?
	either way my site lives at http://www.opendesign.cx and I wiki at
http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?AndrewMcMeikan

	cya,	Andrew...

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Joshua Pierre [SMTP:alpha at indigo.net.au]
> Sent:	Friday, September 01, 2000 5:29 PM
> To:	plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Subject:	[plug] web site
> 
> List,
> 
> I am putting the finishing content into the plug site (Finally) and I
> require some more information on plug members.
> 
> So if you could email me a little bio of yourself with your name email and
> bit of info.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> -- 
> Joshua Pierre		Indigo Networks - Technical Support
> alpha at indigo.net.au	http://www.indigo.net.au
> 
The information transmitted is intended for the person or entity to 
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged 
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, copying or other 
use of, or taking any action in reliance upon, this information by 
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If 
you have received this in error, please contact the sender and delete 
the material from your system. Utility Services Corporation (USC) is not 
responsible for any changes made to the material other than those made 
by USC or for the effect of the changes on the material?s meaning.


From alpha at indigo.net.au  Fri Sep  1 18:12:32 2000
From: alpha at indigo.net.au (Joshua Pierre)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 18:12:32 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web Site
Message-ID: <20000901181232.A4763@indigo.net.au>

List,

also... I need details for the meetings, like meeting places and what is coming etc... If someone like leon, matt or tony could please provide this info I would be greatful.

Cheers

-- 
Joshua Pierre		Indigo Networks - Technical Support
alpha at indigo.net.au	http://www.indigo.net.au



From zombie at wasp.net.au  Sat Sep  2 00:06:30 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 00:06:30 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] web site
In-Reply-To: <20000901173239.A4627@indigo.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000902000222.16280I-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, Joshua Pierre wrote:

> I am putting the finishing content into the plug site (Finally) and I
> require some more information on plug members. 

I wouldn't put info on individual plug members up just yet.
What I have in mind (and will implement when I have the time) is to
provide a script that can be run from your spark account, that asks the
appropriate questions, and using a predefined template, creates a
webpage containing the results. That way they all look the same, and carry
the same info.

I still think first priority should be to get the current info up-to-date
(ie, meetings, committee etc)

Also I'm not saying this because I'm on committee and I think my info
should be on there, and not everyone else's, but rather I'm saying this
because our first priority should be to get the website up-to-date ASAP,
preferably before we start advertising heavily for the Installfest.

 - Matt



From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Sat Sep  2 14:15:24 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 14:15:24 +0800
Subject: [plug] /usr/dict/words
Message-ID: <20000902141524.H32284@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

G'day list,

Does anyone know where I can get an "australian" english version of
/usr/dict/words (really /usr/dict/linux.words)?


Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au  Sat Sep  2 18:06:19 2000
From: kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au (Shackleton, Kevin)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 18:06:19 +0800 
Subject: [plug] AT motherboards
Message-ID: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919DA5AE9@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>

Is there a favourite AT Socket 370 mobo at present?  I was looking at an
Azza TVBT2, though the 693ATT has UDMA-66 and 133 MHz.

K.




From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Sat Sep  2 20:41:45 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 20:41:45 +0800
Subject: [plug] For your amusement: M$ fined $US1E6 for antitrust damages
Message-ID: <39B0F589.9A7449F3@brooks.smileys.net>

Not part of the main trial. As you may imagine, M$ did not take this well, as it
is a dangerous precedent...

    http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2622749,00.html

-- 
"USENET is not a right." "USENET is a right, a left, a jab, and a 
 sharp uppercut to the jaw. The postman hits!  You have new mail." 
		-- Ed Vielmetti & Chip Salzenberg


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Sat Sep  2 20:43:30 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 20:43:30 +0800
Subject: [plug] web site
References: <20000901173239.A4627@indigo.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B0F5F2.944AEDA8@brooks.smileys.net>

Joshua Pierre wrote:
> I am putting the finishing content into the plug site (Finally) and I
> require some more information on plug members.

Can you send me a snapshot of what you have so far, to add to my collection?

BTW, spark now has (in theory) an additional 4.3G of disk space, so you can use
some bigger images. (-:

-- 
OK, I'm weird, but I'm saving up to be eccentric.


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Sat Sep  2 21:04:51 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 21:04:51 +0800
Subject: [plug] Switch off NetBIOS
Message-ID: <39B0FAF3.9A781896@brooks.smileys.net>

What? Another Windows security hole?

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/12951.html

-- 
 Randal said it would be tough to do in sed.  He didn't say he didn't
 understand sed.  Randal understands sed quite well.  Which is why he
 uses Perl.   :-)  -- Larry Wall in <7874 at jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV>


From michael.j.hunt at usa.net  Sat Sep  2 01:11:57 2000
From: michael.j.hunt at usa.net (Michael Hunt)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 19:11:57 +0200
Subject: [plug] web site
In-Reply-To: <20000901173239.A4627@indigo.net.au>
Message-ID: <EKEEKLNPPABOMKNNPGMKEEDMCIAA.michael.j.hunt@usa.net>

> List,
> 
> I am putting the finishing content into the plug site (Finally) 
> and I require some more information on plug members.
> 
> So if you could email me a little bio of yourself with your name 
> email and bit of info.

Joshua,

A bit about myself.

Michael Hunt	(mailto:michael.j.hunt at usa.net)

Nationality	Australian
Locality:		Living abroad in West Africa (Niger)
Occupation:		Jack of all computer trades (Mr Fix-It type sys admin bloke)
Linux Interests: 	Perl, Python, Internet Apps and HAM Radio comms
PLUG Member:	Yes (mid 1998)
Homepage:		http://oddsocks.net/

Hope that helps

Michael Hunt

> Cheers
> 
> -- 
> Joshua Pierre		Indigo Networks - Technical Support
> alpha at indigo.net.au	http://www.indigo.net.au
> 
> 


From ojw at iinet.net.au  Sun Sep  3 07:42:22 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 23:42:22 +0000
Subject: [plug] Switch off NetBIOS
References: <3.0.6.32.20000828070533.00a89210@203.16.214.248>
Message-ID: <39B1905E.546A27B5@iinet.net.au>

Richard Sharpe wrote:

> At 09:04 PM 9/2/00 +0800, Leon Brooks wrote:
> >What? Another Windows security hole?
> >
> >    http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/12951.html
>
> Did you spot the mistake in the article? Just what are NetBIOS names?
>
> One wonders if it was deliberate, or was the journo just a hack?

All the journalists at The Register are self professed hacks. ;-)

--
Oliver White



From squirrel at emerge.net.au  Mon Sep  4 09:14:54 2000
From: squirrel at emerge.net.au (Linux)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 18:14:54 -0700
Subject: [plug] 
Message-ID: <002201c0160d$889f48a0$0201a8c0@peter>

Hi all I seem to corrupt my /mnt directory sometimes when I issue the wrong smbmount command
so my question is what is the the Linux equivlent of the "chkdsk" "scandisk" and "defrag" commands

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From squirrel at emerge.net.au  Mon Sep  4 09:27:41 2000
From: squirrel at emerge.net.au (Robert Andrews)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 18:27:41 -0700
Subject: [plug] Check disk
References: <002201c0160d$889f48a0$0201a8c0@peter>
Message-ID: <003301c0160f$52eda380$0201a8c0@peter>

Just replying to myself and the group with a little more info
I just issued the smbmount command " sbmmount \\peter\d /mnt/peter"
However it seems this is the wrong format
But in the proccess is has corrupted my /mnt/peter diretory
So I removed the /var/lock/samba SAMBA lock file
Now I can type cd /mnt but there is no subdirectory called peter in there
However I can type cd /mnt/peter and no errors are returned
If I then type ls while in the /mnt/peter directory I get "ls : .: Input/output error"
How do I fix this.
Thank you.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Linux 
  To: Perth Linux Group 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 6:14 PM
  Subject: [plug] 


  Hi all I seem to corrupt my /mnt directory sometimes when I issue the wrong smbmount command
  so my question is what is the the Linux equivlent of the "chkdsk" "scandisk" and "defrag" commands

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From myk at golden.wattle.id.au  Sun Sep  3 23:16:12 2000
From: myk at golden.wattle.id.au (Mike Holland)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 23:16:12 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Check disk
In-Reply-To: <003301c0160f$52eda380$0201a8c0@peter>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009032306460.12846-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>

Robert,
to check a filesystem, see fsck(8) and e2fsck(8). But i doubt the
underlying e2fs filesystem has been corrupted.  I have noticed before bugs
in smbmount, wrt handling errors. If you can remove the "mount" in the
kernel, peter may reappear.  Try "umount /mnt/peter".

  P.S. you dont need defrag on a real OS. :) kind-of. Linux doenst tend to
suffer from those problems for various reasons. (Does NT with NTFS?)

On Sun, 3 Sep 2000, Robert Andrews wrote:

>   Hi all I seem to corrupt my /mnt directory sometimes when I issue
> the wrong smbmount command
>   so my question is what is the the Linux equivlent of the "chkdsk"
> "scandisk" and "defrag" commands

-- 
Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
                          --==--



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep  4 08:24:37 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 08:24:37 +0800
Subject: [plug] Check disk
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009032306460.12846-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>
Message-ID: <39B2EBC5.31148C7B@brooks.smileys.net>

Mike Holland wrote:
> you dont need defrag on a real OS. :) kind-of. Linux doenst tend to
> suffer from those problems for various reasons. (Does NT with NTFS?)

Fragmentation, not much. Journalling, however... a lot of NT sysadmins install
their system stuff on a FAT partition - and never mind the security issues - so
that they have a base from which to begin repairing their machine _when_ the
NTFS "journalling" fails them during an unexpected outage.

BTW, if you dabble in filesystems at all, read last week's LWN page on Tux2fs, a
bulletproofing concept one conceptual level higher than "plain" journalling.

-- 
"When I die, I want go out just like my grandfather, in his sleep,
peaceful and quiet... not kicking and screaming like the other guys
in his car"


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep  4 08:29:09 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 08:29:09 +0800
Subject: [plug] Can we use your Nokia 7110?
Message-ID: <39B2ECD5.C77F3AEF@brooks.smileys.net>

It might be beep-beep-beep beeeep-beeeep-beeeep beep-beep-beep next time,
instead of the usual beep-beep-beep beeeep-beeeep beep-beep-beep...

    http://slashdot.org/articles/00/09/03/1515202.shtml

-- 
HELO my name is sendmail.cf. You SIGKILLed my shell. Prepare to vi.


From tony at cantech.net.au  Mon Sep  4 09:26:42 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:26:42 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Web Site
In-Reply-To: <20000901181232.A4763@indigo.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009040910450.15792-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, Joshua Pierre wrote:

> List,
> 
> also... I need details for the meetings, like meeting places and what is coming etc... If someone like leon, matt or tony could please provide this info I would be greatful.


PLUG meets twice monthly.
    2nd Tuesday of each month:  Is a seminar talk
                                This months talk is yet to be finalized.
        Where:  Tennyson Group Office
                Lvl 2 
                1 Havelock St 
                West Perth 6005 
        When:   19:30

    4th Monday of each Month: workshop session where people are encouraged to
                              bring sick and or dying Linux boxes along for some TLC.
        Where : UCC (UWA Computer Club)  (Existing site has links)
        When  :  19:30


Current Office bearers are:

President/Chairperson:   Matt Kemner
Vice (President/Chairperson) : Ian Kent
Treasurer                     : David Campbell (Currently OS)
Secretary                     : Tony Breeds

Any other questions let us know,


Also as far as personal info goes I think it should be left to each user to
modify their own page.   Matt has already said he is willing to write a script
to create the template for the page.  I don't think it would be too hard to
call that page bio.html (or other the name is irrelevant) then at a given
time each day a script could check for the existence of
~user/public_html/bio.html.   If it's there then each members page could be
listed on the members info page ..... does that make sense ??

Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From griffith at environ.wa.gov.au  Mon Sep  4 10:38:11 2000
From: griffith at environ.wa.gov.au (David Griffiths)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 10:38:11 +0800
Subject: [plug] Check disk
In-Reply-To: <003301c0160f$52eda380$0201a8c0@peter>
References: <002201c0160d$889f48a0$0201a8c0@peter>
Message-ID: <00Sep4.102701wst.119044@epagate.environ.wa.gov.au>

>    Just replying to myself and the group with a little  more info I just
>issued the smbmount command " sbmmount \\peter\d /mnt/peter" However it
>seems this is the wrong  format But in the proccess is has corrupted my
>/mnt/peter  diretory So I removed the /var/lock/samba SAMBA lock  file Now
>I can type cd /mnt but there is no subdirectory  called peter in there
>However I can type cd /mnt/peter and no errors are  returned If I then
>type ls while in the /mnt/peter directory  I get "ls : .: Input/output
>error" How do I fix this. Thank you.    
>


From chris at bizzpro.com.au  Mon Sep  4 12:05:42 2000
From: chris at bizzpro.com.au (Chris Crawford)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:05:42 +0800
Subject: [plug] Shopping Kart
Message-ID: <39B31F96.CAD67EDE@bizzpro.com.au>

I am looking for a shopping kart program for linux, preferably free. Has
anyone got any ideas?
I assume the "everything linux" shopping kart is written in linux.

--
Chris Crawford
IT Manager
Bizzpro
http://www.bizzpro.com.au
ICQ 2835288


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From skribe at amber.com.au  Mon Sep  4 12:48:29 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:48:29 +0800
Subject: [plug] Shopping Kart
In-Reply-To: <39B31F96.CAD67EDE@bizzpro.com.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000904124614.00bd67e0@amber.com.au>

At 12:05 4/09/00, Chris Crawford wrote:
>I am looking for a shopping kart program for linux, preferably free. Has 
>anyone got any ideas?
>I assume the "everything linux" shopping kart is written in linux.

If you are using PHP there appear to be a number of solutions.  Go to 
http://www.hotscripts.com/PHP/Scripts_and_Programs/E-Commerce/ and they 
have a variety of scripts for carts, catalogues and credit-card 
processing.  You might find what you need there.

skribe
	Purity:                           62.0% 			
	Corruption:                    38.0%	
	Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
	Weirdness factor:           31%
	Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
	Medieval Career:            Black Knight	



From colin at durbanet.co.za  Mon Sep  4 13:13:02 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 13:13:02 +0800
Subject: [plug] Shopping Kart
References: <39B31F96.CAD67EDE@bizzpro.com.au>
Message-ID: <39B32F5E.CCDA9E90@durbanet.co.za>

Chris Crawford wrote:
> 
> I am looking for a shopping kart program for linux, preferably free. Has anyone got any ideas?
> I assume the "everything linux" shopping kart is written in linux.

Mike Heins's Minivend is free, robust, stable, scalable, secure,
real-world-tested (used on thousands of sites), written in Perl and has
an active developer community. It's been taken over by Akopia, who will
be integrating it with Tallyman to make a turnkey open-source e-commerce
suite and will be selling support. Enough buzzwords?

There's even an RPM available.

http://www.minivend.com/iri/download.html

Colin


From navarre at plug.linux.org.au  Mon Sep  4 21:39:26 2000
From: navarre at plug.linux.org.au (navarre at plug.linux.org.au)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 13:39:26 GMT
Subject: [plug] Script not working
Message-ID: <20000904.13392600@isabeau.anjov.org.au>

Hello List

I have a simple script file to print from PS to PCL. When the same 
commands are run from the command line I get an output. What run as the 
sript I get nothing. That is no errors on the comand line or no output to 
printer, have not looked at log files as yet. 


isabeau: ~ $cat gs-print 
#!/bin/bash
/usr/bin/gs -q -dSAFER -dBATCH -sDEVICE=laserjet -r300x300 -dNOPAUSE 
-sOutpuFile=\|lpr /home/navarre/print.ps 
isabeau: ~ $ls -l gs-print
-rwxr-xr-x   1 navarre  1000          123 Sep  4 13:30 gs-print
isabeau: ~ $


Print spooling, and the gs command string work fine, it is only using the 
script to semi automate the printing that is not working.

Any clues please.

Navarre




From colinr at tiwest.com.au  Mon Sep  4 13:56:06 2000
From: colinr at tiwest.com.au (Colin Rothnie)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 13:56:06 +0800 
Subject: [plug] Script not working
Message-ID: <E9EDEF4E768BD311BE0B00A0C9D4C42835E229@minxs1.tiwest.com.au>

Navarre wrote:
> isabeau: ~ $cat gs-print 
> #!/bin/bash
> /usr/bin/gs -q -dSAFER -dBATCH -sDEVICE=laserjet -r300x300 -dNOPAUSE 
> -sOutpuFile=\|lpr /home/navarre/print.ps 

I guess you are aware of the typo in the -sOuputFile parameter.

Colin Rothnie


From navarre at plug.linux.org.au  Mon Sep  4 23:21:46 2000
From: navarre at plug.linux.org.au (navarre at plug.linux.org.au)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 15:21:46 GMT
Subject: [plug] Script not working
In-Reply-To: <E9EDEF4E768BD311BE0B00A0C9D4C42835E229@minxs1.tiwest.com.au>
References: <E9EDEF4E768BD311BE0B00A0C9D4C42835E229@minxs1.tiwest.com.au>
Message-ID: <20000904.15214600@isabeau.anjov.org.au>

Hello Colin

Thank you, I had missed the spelling mistake, fix it and the script 
works.

Is there a general rule in Linux/unix to not report errors like the one I 
created or is it normal to die silent and do nothing?

Inspired by this new found knowledge (<tongue-in-cheek>spelling is 
important </tic>) I took a look at what was ailing the automatic 
conversation via the printcap filters. What I found was that in my reuse 
of the supplied sample I had not commented out the one line that ran gs. 
So the old line that converted for 9pin epson was sending its data to a 
PCL printer and the output was not pretty. Having commented out the 
effending line all is well.

Thanks again.
Navarre


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On 9/4/00, 5:56:06 AM, Colin Rothnie <colinr at tiwest.com.au> wrote regarding 
RE: [plug] Script not working:


> Navarre wrote:
> > isabeau: ~ $cat gs-print
> > #!/bin/bash
> > /usr/bin/gs -q -dSAFER -dBATCH -sDEVICE=laserjet -r300x300 -dNOPAUSE
> > -sOutpuFile=\|lpr /home/navarre/print.ps

> I guess you are aware of the typo in the -sOuputFile parameter.

> Colin Rothnie


From myk at golden.wattle.id.au  Mon Sep  4 16:18:34 2000
From: myk at golden.wattle.id.au (Mike Holland)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:18:34 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Script not working
In-Reply-To: <20000904.15214600@isabeau.anjov.org.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009041613260.12994-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000 navarre at plug.linux.org.au wrote:

> Is there a general rule in Linux/unix to not report errors like the one I 
> created or is it normal to die silent and do nothing?

No, of course it isnt normal. Its a design issue in 'gs' - I have had
problems there too. Your mis-typed command was actually valid. The output
would have gone to the default output location, whatever that is. (The man
page doesnt say. Anyone? )  The use of -d and -s is ugly and error-prone.

  Similarly tar defaults to some weird historical oddity for its output,
rather than stdout, which is the more normal unix way.

 
> > > /usr/bin/gs -q -dSAFER -dBATCH -sDEVICE=laserjet -r300x300 -dNOPAUSE
> > > -sOutpuFile=\|lpr /home/navarre/print.ps
> 
> > I guess you are aware of the typo in the -sOuputFile parameter.
> 
> > Colin Rothnie
> 

-- 
Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
                          --==--



From nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au  Mon Sep  4 16:39:59 2000
From: nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Bannon)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:39:59 +0800
Subject: [plug] Script not working
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009041613260.12994-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>; from myk@golden.wattle.id.au on Mon, Sep 04, 2000 at 04:18:34PM +0800
References: <20000904.15214600@isabeau.anjov.org.au> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009041613260.12994-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>
Message-ID: <20000904163959.E1819@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>

On Mon, Sep 04, 2000 at 04:18:34PM +0800, Mike Holland wrote:
>   Similarly tar defaults to some weird historical oddity for its output,
> rather than stdout, which is the more normal unix way.

GNU tar doesn't;
	(cd /source && tar c *) | (cd /dest && tar x)
...works fine.

Traditional tar defaults to the tape device, after all, it's the
Tape ARchiver.

Nick.

-- 
  Nick Bannon  | "I made this letter longer than usual because
nick at it.net.au | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal


From colinr at tiwest.com.au  Mon Sep  4 16:47:05 2000
From: colinr at tiwest.com.au (Colin Rothnie)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:47:05 +0800 
Subject: [plug] Script not working
Message-ID: <E9EDEF4E768BD311BE0B00A0C9D4C42835E22B@minxs1.tiwest.com.au>

Navarre wrote:
> Is there a general rule in Linux/unix to not report errors like the one I 
> created or is it normal to die silent and do nothing?

I just tried the ghostscript command you have in your script with a few
incorrect parameters (-dGARBAGE -sGARBAGE). It quietly ignores these and
continues with the job.  

You will probably find your script was working, but sending the output
somewhere else instead of the output file.  

My guess is that it is/was a deliberate design decision to ignore invalid
command line parameters rather than exit.  While probably not the standard
'Unix Way', this would have some merit with Ghostscript due to the lengthy
command line strings that people were having to write in order to properly
control output.  My preference (given easy access to command-line history in
bash) would have been to have the program exit with a diagnostic error.  At
least you would be certain that it was working as you intended, paying
attention to all of the command line parameters.

I wonder if there is a valid command line parameter to enforce strict
command line parsing? :-)

Colin Rothnie


From nathan.alberti at paradox.net.au  Mon Sep  4 17:01:19 2000
From: nathan.alberti at paradox.net.au (Nathan Alberti)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 17:01:19 +0800
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
References: <E9EDEF4E768BD311BE0B00A0C9D4C42835E229@minxs1.tiwest.com.au>
Message-ID: <39B364DF.44282822@paradox.net.au>


Excuse my ignorance but what companies in perth are set up to supply
support/maintence for a simple linux server to a school in perth ?

-- 
Nathan Alberti - Ackroyd
Ruralnet Engineer
---------------------
PARADOX DIGITAL P/L ACN 008875714
---------------------
193 Gt Eastern HWY
Belmont WA 6014
Western Australia
+61 (08) 9478 6500 Phone
1800 248 002 24H
 
**************************************************************************
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may contain
legally privileged information.  If you are not the intended recipient
you
must not read, copy, distribute or act in reliance on it.  If you have
received this message in error please forward this e-mail to
webmaster at paradox.net.au and delete all copies of this message.
**************************************************************************


From tony at cantech.net.au  Mon Sep  4 17:04:43 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 17:04:43 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
In-Reply-To: <39B364DF.44282822@paradox.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009041703230.16299-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Nathan Alberti wrote:

> Excuse my ignorance but what companies in perth are set up to supply
> support/maintence for a simple linux server to a school in perth ?

This was discussed awhile ago.   Several members of the list do this BUT IIRC
there are no companies that provide this service ATM.  Linux Services WA may
BUT Chris would be the man to ask about that.

Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From steven at aceonline.com.au  Mon Sep  4 17:07:29 2000
From: steven at aceonline.com.au (Steven Leopardi)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 17:07:29 +0800
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
Message-ID: <20000904170729.A4597@aceonline.com.au>

Hi,
Aceonline <www.aceonline.com.au> do what you are after.

Cheers

-- 

	Steven Leopardi				<steven at aceonline.com.au>		ICQ					11784601	
	IRC					fusion on OPN



From zombie at wasp.net.au  Mon Sep  4 17:11:19 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 17:11:19 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009041703230.16299-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000904170914.16280M-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima wrote:

> This was discussed awhile ago.   Several members of the list do this BUT IIRC
> there are no companies that provide this service ATM.  Linux Services WA may
> BUT Chris would be the man to ask about that.

Linux Services WA would, and I'm sure CyberKnights (aka Leon Brooks) would
too, as well as many of the ISPs many members on this list work for
(mine included)

 - Matt



From myk at golden.wattle.id.au  Mon Sep  4 17:52:51 2000
From: myk at golden.wattle.id.au (Mike Holland)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 17:52:51 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Script not working
In-Reply-To: <E9EDEF4E768BD311BE0B00A0C9D4C42835E22B@minxs1.tiwest.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009041748520.14146-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Colin Rothnie wrote:

> My guess is that it is/was a deliberate design decision to ignore invalid
> command line parameters rather than exit.  While probably not the standard

But the parameters were perfectly valid. Remeber that postscript is a
full-blown language, and -s/-d define symbols, just like gcc's -D.

-- 
Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
                          --==--




From kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au  Mon Sep  4 19:20:47 2000
From: kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au (Shackleton, Kevin)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 19:20:47 +0800 
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
Message-ID: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919DA5D56@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>

Speaking of which, and changing topic somewhat:

Given a Linux dial-up / proxy server operating more-or-less hands-off at a
school.  The school has a 12-hour account (you dial in for 12 hours a day).
How do I set it up so that:

1) it cron's the dial in and hangup without anyone being logged in.  The
cron documentation refers to all cron jobs as belonging to someone.  Will
root's cron jobs be run without being logged in?  (I'd try this but my
machine's in bits at the moment).

2) it copes with power failures.  We often have power failures longer than
small UPS' will cope with.  Assuming the machine fsck's ok, it would be nice
to see it work out if it should reconnect or not.

TIA,

K.



> ----------
> From: 	Nathan Alberti[SMTP:nathan.alberti at paradox.net.au]
> 
> Excuse my ignorance but what companies in perth are set up to supply
> support/maintence for a simple linux server to a school in perth ?
> 


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Mon Sep  4 23:25:14 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:25:14 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
In-Reply-To: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919DA5D56@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000904232237.16280P-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Shackleton, Kevin wrote:

> 1) it cron's the dial in and hangup without anyone being logged in.  The
> cron documentation refers to all cron jobs as belonging to someone.  Will
> root's cron jobs be run without being logged in?  (I'd try this but my
> machine's in bits at the moment).

Yes. Any cron jobs will run without the owner being logged in.
 
> 2) it copes with power failures.  We often have power failures longer than
> small UPS' will cope with.  Assuming the machine fsck's ok, it would be nice
> to see it work out if it should reconnect or not.

I'm not sure I follow you here.
You mean it should work out if it should reconnect in terms of what time
of day it is?

The easiest way to solve that, is to have a cron script run at regular
intervals, between the hours that the link should be up, to check that the
link is in fact up, and to re-dial if it is not.

 - Matt



From myk at golden.wattle.id.au  Tue Sep  5 00:03:06 2000
From: myk at golden.wattle.id.au (Mike Holland)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 00:03:06 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
In-Reply-To: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919DA5D56@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009042350420.14146-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Shackleton, Kevin wrote:

> 2) it copes with power failures.  We often have power failures longer than
> small UPS' will cope with.  Assuming the machine fsck's ok, it would be nice
> to see it work out if it should reconnect or not.

/etc/rc.d/rc.local is the place to add start-up code. e.g. something like

  hour=`date +%H`
  if [ ($hour -lt 18) -a ($hour -ge 6) ] then ppp-on; 

You can run the ppp-on and ppp-off scripts from cron, but see the
'persist' and 'holdoff' options for pppd, as you will want it to re-dial
when the link is lost. (just not too often!)

Mind you, all this doesnt smell right. The phrase "race conditions" comes
to mind. You could add some checks, but can anyone suggest a neater
solution for keeping a PPP link within certain hours, across reboots ?

-- 
Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
                          --==--




From subb3 at attglobal.net  Tue Sep  5 02:00:58 2000
From: subb3 at attglobal.net (Subba Rao)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 18:00:58 +0000
Subject: [plug] Sound Alerts
Message-ID: <20000904180058.A28919@attglobal.net>


One of our key systems has been configured to create a sound for an alert
on the system. We have setup several alerts on this system. The sound driver
used on this system is from OSS. Now, what happens when multiple alerts are
set off at the same time? Do the alerts get queued to the driver?

When I tested with 2 simulataneous alerts, I got the following message on
the console,

sox: Unable to set audio speed to 8000 (set to 5512)

Now, when I tried to set off 3 alerts at the sametime, I get the following
message,

sox: Can't open output file '/dev/dsp': Device or resource busy

Has anyone tried to setup this type of alert system? If you succeeded, please
let me know how you did it. I do wish to be notified for each alert on this
system. I would like our busy sys admins, know what is happening on this system
while they are working on neighbouring systems.

Thank you in advance for any ideas. 

--
Subba Rao
subb3 at attglobal.net
http://pws.prserv.net/truemax/

 => Time is relative. Here is a new way to look at time. <=
http://www.smcinnovations.com


From kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au  Tue Sep  5 08:46:12 2000
From: kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au (Shackleton, Kevin)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 08:46:12 +0800 
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
Message-ID: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919DA5D7B@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>

Thanks Mike and Matt.

Looks like both a cron to check the link is up and something in rc.local
would do the job.  The script should not dial on the weekend of course.

There's a loss of elegance in having the should-be-connected times in two
locations (the everyday cron and the recovery technique).  I suppose I could
make a single script containing the should-be-connected times and call that
from rc.local and a frequently-called cron.  Have to borrow my bash book
back . .

BTW, what, in Oz, is considered a 'reasonable holdoff'?  A minute?  Or more?
I vaguely recall something in a modem manual suggesting it was naughty to
slam calls through end-to-end.

K.

K.

> ----------
> From: 	Mike Holland[SMTP:myk at golden.wattle.id.au]
> 
> /etc/rc.d/rc.local is the place to add start-up code. e.g. something like
> 
>   hour=`date +%H`
>   if [ ($hour -lt 18) -a ($hour -ge 6) ] then ppp-on; 
> 
> 


From colinr at tiwest.com.au  Tue Sep  5 08:35:15 2000
From: colinr at tiwest.com.au (Colin Rothnie)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 08:35:15 +0800 
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
Message-ID: <E9EDEF4E768BD311BE0B00A0C9D4C42835E22D@minxs1.tiwest.com.au>

Mike Holland wrote:
> You could add some checks, but can anyone suggest a neater
> solution for keeping a PPP link within certain hours, across reboots ?

I know the diald solution is not popular among some list members, but I have
had a lot of luck with it, including controlling the ppp connection for the
Internet gateway at the local school.  I like the fact that the link can be
"forced", "unforced", "blocked" and "unblocked" by echoing the relevant text
string to the diald fifo.
eg. echo force>/etc/diald/diald.ctl

The school's link is "blocked" after 5pm or thereabouts, but they can bring
it up manually after that time using a web page with simple cgi scripts that
echo "unblock" or whatever to the fifo.

Since the system was set up about twelve months ago, there has been
virtually no maintenance.  The most difficult thing is getting staff to turn
the box off when they head out for school holidays (if I was clever, I would
configure the thing to know about school holidays, but it is surprising how
many times the thing is actually used during holidays.  Diligent students I
guess.)

Colin Rothnie


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep  5 09:18:27 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 09:18:27 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
In-Reply-To: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919DA5D7B@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905091522.16280Q-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Shackleton, Kevin wrote:

> Looks like both a cron to check the link is up and something in rc.local
> would do the job.  The script should not dial on the weekend of course.

I just have a script that runs from cron like thus:

* 6-17 * * 1-5  root    /root/bin/ChkModem
0 18   * * 1-5  root    killall pppd

ChkModem is basically a script that pings the other end of the link, and
if it fails, and it hasn't redialed too often recently, it redials.
No need to put something in rc.local that knows about time, because the
cron script takes care of that.
And any time the link drops out during the day, it will redial within the
minute.
 
> There's a loss of elegance in having the should-be-connected times in two
> locations (the everyday cron and the recovery technique).  I suppose I could
> make a single script containing the should-be-connected times and call that
> from rc.local and a frequently-called cron.

Just call it from cron. No need to have it anywhere else.

 - Matt



From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep  5 09:33:03 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 09:33:03 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Sound Alerts
In-Reply-To: <20000904180058.A28919@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905091913.16280R-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Subba Rao wrote:

> One of our key systems has been configured to create a sound for an alert
> on the system. We have setup several alerts on this system. The sound driver
> used on this system is from OSS. Now, what happens when multiple alerts are
> set off at the same time? Do the alerts get queued to the driver?

Either have a look at the Enlightened Sound Daemon[1], which will mix
together several sounds (so they can all play at once) or write a wrapper
script which locks /dev/dsp somehow[2], and pauses if it detects a wait -
so it will queue the sounds for you.

[1] sound/esound_*.deb for Debian,

[2] easiest and safest way to do this from a shell script is to create
    a directory in a non-public space (ie NOT in /tmp) eg something like:
    (untested, but should be close to working code, if not already)

    #!/bin/bash
    count=0
    while ! `mkdir /root/dsplock >&/dev/null`
    do
      sleep 10
      count=$(($count+1))
      if [ $count -eq 6 ]
      then
        echo DSP has been locked for over a minute, killing.
        killall wavplay
        rmdir /root/dsplock
      fi
    done
    wavplay alert.wav
    rmdir /root/dsplock


 - Matt



From earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com  Tue Sep  5 10:33:05 2000
From: earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com (Earnshaw, Mike)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 10:33:05 +0800 
Subject: [plug] chkconfig + dhcpd
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1756@EXCHANGE>

List,

Just downloaded the latest(?) dhcp tarball from isc.org. It compiled and
installed OK. I am having a few problems getting chkconfig to add the
daemon. If I use chkconfig --add /usr/sbin/dhcpd it reports error
reading information on service (which I would kind of expect since this
is the binary) but I get the same message when I point chkconfig to the
directory I used for the untar etc.

I can not seem to work out where to locate the information on service
for this. Any pointers please?

Thanks,

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Mike Earnshaw      | "Nothing is foolproof to a      | e-mail in header
 Computer Systems  |  sufficiently talented fool"    | Tel : +61 8 9256
1099
  Support          |                     Anon.       | Fax : +61 8 9256
1199
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
   ,-._|\    Union Switch & signal
  /      \   24 Bannick Court
  *_.--._/   Canning Vale, WA 6155, Western Australia
        v 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----


From tony at cantech.net.au  Tue Sep  5 11:02:19 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:02:19 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] chkconfig + dhcpd
In-Reply-To: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1756@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009051050050.16299-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Earnshaw, Mike wrote:

> Just downloaded the latest(?) dhcp tarball from isc.org. It compiled and
> installed OK. I am having a few problems getting chkconfig to add the
> daemon. If I use chkconfig --add /usr/sbin/dhcpd it reports error
> reading information on service (which I would kind of expect since this
> is the binary) but I get the same message when I point chkconfig to the
> directory I used for the untar etc.

chkconfig doesn't work on binaries.   chkconfig is designed to work in
conjunction with the SysV startup system.

What you need to do is make s shell script that can start and stop the dhcp
daemon.

---
#!/bin/sh

# chkconfig: 345 65 35

case "$1" in
	start)
			/usr/sbin/dhcpd
			;;
	stop)
			killall dhcpd
			;;
	*)
			echo dhcpd {start|stop}
esac
---

you that as a template .... The comment line with chkconfig is the key.

(
After chkconfig there are 3 numbers:
345 == start at Run levels 3, 4 and 5.
65  == what "priority to start it at"  .... 65 is GUARANTEED to start after ALL
       scripts with a priority 64 or lower.  Any scripts with a priority of 66 
       or higher will start AFTER this script.
35  == what priority to stop at (general rule is 100-the start value.
)
place that script in /etc/rc.d/init.d/  call it dhcpd  make it executable.

then run 
chkconfig --del dhcpd             # Just to make sure you know how things are. 
chkconfig --add dhcpd             # Now add it.
chkconfig --list dhcpd            # Check it going to start when you think.

Next time you reboot the system dhcpd should start up.  To start it this time.
run /etc/rc.d/init.d/dhcpd start
 
> I can not seem to work out where to locate the information on service
> for this. Any pointers please?

HTH

Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From griffith at environ.wa.gov.au  Tue Sep  5 11:19:37 2000
From: griffith at environ.wa.gov.au (David Griffiths)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:19:37 +0800
Subject: [plug] chkconfig + dhcpd
In-Reply-To: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1756@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <00Sep5.110823wst.119041@epagate.environ.wa.gov.au>

>List,
>
>Just downloaded the latest(?) dhcp tarball from isc.org. It compiled and
>installed OK. I am having a few problems getting chkconfig to add the
>daemon. If I use chkconfig --add /usr/sbin/dhcpd it reports error
>reading information on service (which I would kind of expect since this
>is the binary) but I get the same message when I point chkconfig to the
>directory I used for the untar etc.
>
>I can not seem to work out where to locate the information on service
>for this. Any pointers please?
>
Mike,

I'm not sure that the --add is meant to be used in this way.

I think you may need to create the script for dhcpd by hand initially (eg
copy one of the existing scripts and modify that or locate one from a .rpm
or .deb).

chkconfig looks at the "# chkconfig " line in the init script which
specifies default run levels to start up on and shut down on and also
numbers indicating the order in which to do this.

Take care to get the starting order number in particular about right. Too
early and it might fail, eg before networking is started.

Once the init script is created then I suspect that the --add command will
do it's bit.

Or, you can just create the links to the appropriate run level dirs by hand,

or use the chkconfig command to do it for you, eg
    chkconfig --level 345 dhcpd on

cheers,

Dave.



 ========================================================================

  David Griffiths                             griffith at environ.wa.gov.au

  Air Quality Management Branch
  Department of Environmental Protection          Phone:   61 8 9222 7151

  Westralia Square                                Fax  :   61 8 9321 5184
  141 St Georges Tce
  Perth 6000
  Western Australia
 ========================================================================




From earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com  Tue Sep  5 11:23:26 2000
From: earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com (Earnshaw, Mike)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:23:26 +0800 
Subject: [plug] chkconfig + dhcpd
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1759@EXCHANGE>

Many thanks to all



From ravingmad at freemail.com.au  Tue Sep  5 11:33:38 2000
From: ravingmad at freemail.com.au (Sean Cohen)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:33:38 +1100
Subject: [plug] unsubscribe
Message-ID: <200009050333.OAA13091@pootertoo.indigointeractive.com.au>



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From cwilliam at erggroup.com  Tue Sep  5 11:37:18 2000
From: cwilliam at erggroup.com (cwilliam at erggroup.com)
Date: Tue,  5 Sep 2000 11:37:18 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] 
Message-ID: <20000905033718.9BF421A35@spark.plug.linux.org.au>

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From tclark at telia.com  Tue Sep  5 20:42:52 2000
From: tclark at telia.com (Tony Clark)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:42:52 +0200
Subject: [plug] Linux/win2k dual boot
Message-ID: <00090514454200.00803@traveller>

Has anyone setup a dual boot system with win2k.  My laptop currently dual boots
NT and linux, but I was thinking off adding a larger virus to reduce
productivity  :)...Alas I do have to keep win something on it

Tony Clark
Contract ASIC, FPGA, VHDL and Digital Design Services
Mobile +46 702 894 667


From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Tue Sep  5 12:42:59 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (SweenyTod)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:42:59 +0800
Subject: [plug] Linux/win2k dual boot
In-Reply-To: <00090514454200.00803@traveller>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000905124139.033a77b8@mail.sweenytod.com>

At 08:42 PM 5/09/2000, you wrote:
>Has anyone setup a dual boot system with win2k.  My laptop currently dual 
>boots
>NT and linux, but I was thinking off adding a larger virus to reduce
>productivity  :)...Alas I do have to keep win something on it

Yeah, I did that.  It worked perfectly.  I installed win2000 first, and 
then Redhat 6.2 next.  Redhat detected the other partition, and configured 
lilo to boot it.




=============================================================
Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd.    His skin was pale and his eye was odd.
Always trust an Australian with a razor.

http://www.sweenytod.com               Paranoid is normal, normal is good



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  5 12:44:41 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:44:41 +0800
Subject: [plug] Linux/win2k dual boot
References: <00090514454200.00803@traveller>
Message-ID: <39B47A39.62B4D4DD@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Tony Clark wrote:
> 
> Has anyone setup a dual boot system with win2k.  My laptop currently dual boots
> NT and linux, but I was thinking off adding a larger virus to reduce
> productivity  :)...Alas I do have to keep win something on it
> 
> Tony Clark
> Contract ASIC, FPGA, VHDL and Digital Design Services
> Mobile +46 702 894 667

That might not be such a good idea.


From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Tue Sep  5 12:54:01 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:54:01 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Perth 19 & cloudy, Sydney 17 & fine, Hades -2 & snow.
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905124806.9441A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

I think the URL provides its own commentary.
http://www.trolltech.com/company/announce/gpl.html
The dawn of the Free desktop is upon us.

-Greg Mildenhall



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  5 13:02:23 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 13:02:23 +0800
Subject: [plug] Perth 19 & cloudy, Sydney 17 & fine, Hades -2 & snow.
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905124806.9441A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B47E5F.101818C4@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

The Thought Assassin wrote:
> 
> I think the URL provides its own commentary.
> http://www.trolltech.com/company/announce/gpl.html
> The dawn of the Free desktop is upon us.
> 
> -Greg Mildenhall

Does that mean that the licensing problem with KDE, or, with software
developed for KDE, or, whatever it was, will come to an end?


From christian at amnet.net.au  Tue Sep  5 13:15:51 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 13:15:51 +0800
Subject: [plug] Perth 19 & cloudy, Sydney 17 & fine, Hades -2 & snow.
In-Reply-To: <39B47E5F.101818C4@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 05, 2000 at 01:02:23PM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905124806.9441A-100000@live.wasp.net.au> <39B47E5F.101818C4@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000905131551.B1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Tue, Sep 05, 2000 at 01:02:23PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> Does that mean that the licensing problem with KDE, or, with software
> developed for KDE, or, whatever it was, will come to an end?
> >From memory, previous discussion has existed, about licensing problems,
> related to one of the scenario's above, regarding KDE.

It means that they will essentially come to an end with the release of
Qt 2.2.  I guess the only bad thing about all this is that the Windows
version will still be under a proprietary license (although there would
be nothing preventing people from porting the GPL'd version to Windows).
I would still say that GTK has some sort of advantage though because it
is LGPL'd so is more useful to commercial, proprietary or
free-but-GPL-incompatible licenses.

Regards,

Christian.


From earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com  Tue Sep  5 13:20:32 2000
From: earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com (Earnshaw, Mike)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 13:20:32 +0800 
Subject: [plug] Linux/win2k dual boot
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C175B@EXCHANGE>

This is the best option. Unless you have a *real* mission critical
reason to switch to W2K, stay clear.


> I would be inclined to stay with WinNT 4 (without service packs after
> #4, as they tend to sabotage non-MS software, from what I have been
> advised).
> 
> But, that is just my opinion.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Bret Busby
> 
> ......................................
> 


From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Tue Sep  5 13:21:04 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 13:21:04 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Perth 19 & cloudy, Sydney 17 & fine, Hades -2 & snow.
In-Reply-To: <39B47E5F.101818C4@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905131026.9441B-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> The Thought Assassin wrote:
> > I think the URL provides its own commentary.
> > http://www.trolltech.com/company/announce/gpl.html
> > The dawn of the Free desktop is upon us.
> Does that mean that the licensing problem with KDE <is solved>.
Yes. In rough terms, KDE is released under a license (the GPL) which
forbids (in general) linking to non-GPL software. KDE only works, though,
when it is linked to the Qt libraries, which were not available under the
GPL. This effectively meant that distribution of KDE was disallowed by the
license it was distributed under. Once Qt is available under the GPL, the
problem will no longer exist.

> or, with software developed for KDE
There is no direct effect on software developed for KDE, but since most
software developed for KDE uses the Qt library, it is now much easier to
write GPLed software for KDE, and to adapt the vast wealth of existing GPL
software for KDE integration. Happy days.

-Greg Mildenhall



From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Tue Sep  5 13:26:28 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 13:26:28 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Perth 19 & cloudy, Sydney 17 & fine, Hades -2 & snow.
In-Reply-To: <20000905131551.B1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905132138.9441C-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Christian wrote:
> I would still say that GTK has some sort of advantage though because it
> is LGPL'd so is more useful to commercial, proprietary or
Yes and yes - ironic, really, with GNOME being an FSF initiative.

> free-but-GPL-incompatible licenses.
No. The QPL gives about as much leeway here as the LGPL. It was the terms
of the GPL that prevented the linking, not those of the QPL, so linking
with "non-viral" Open Source licenses was always possible.

-Greg Mildenhall



From tclark at telia.com  Tue Sep  5 21:42:11 2000
From: tclark at telia.com (Tony Clark)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:42:11 +0200
Subject: [plug] Linux/win2k dual boot
In-Reply-To: <39B47A39.62B4D4DD@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
References: <00090514454200.00803@traveller> <39B47A39.62B4D4DD@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00090515435702.00803@traveller>

On Tue, 05 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> That might not be such a good idea.
> 
> >From what I have seen of Win2K, the only way that a command line prompt
> can be obtained, is to reboot a Win2K machine, into DOS mode; what I saw
> of it, lacked either a DOS window facility, or its equivalent. Thus, if
> a user wanted to do any troubleshooting, for example, when in an

I'm not sure, but I would guess you could use cygwin and have pretty much
normal shell facilities...but I good point as I do need to run scripts.

-- 
Tony Clark
Contract ASIC, FPGA, VHDL and Digital Design Services
Mobile +46 702 894 667


From brad at mapsys.com.au  Tue Sep  5 13:51:52 2000
From: brad at mapsys.com.au (Bradley Browne)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 13:51:52 +0800
Subject: [plug] Linux/win2k dual boot
References: <00090514454200.00803@traveller> <39B47A39.62B4D4DD@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <00090515435702.00803@traveller>
Message-ID: <39B489F7.C047FD21@mapsys.com.au>


Tony,

Windows 2000 does have the ability to give you a command prompt. 
You can type commands just like in the old DOS Window however I
think that a lot of the command line functionality has been taken
away -- probably for the reasons that Bret mentioned previously. 
I haven't tried cygwin on Windows 2000 but that could be a good
alternative if you find that Windows 2000 CLI lacks the necessary
things to get the job done.

Cheers,
Brad

Tony Clark wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 05 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > That might not be such a good idea.
> >
> > >From what I have seen of Win2K, the only way that a command line prompt
> > can be obtained, is to reboot a Win2K machine, into DOS mode; what I saw
> > of it, lacked either a DOS window facility, or its equivalent. Thus, if
> > a user wanted to do any troubleshooting, for example, when in an
> 
> I'm not sure, but I would guess you could use cygwin and have pretty much
> normal shell facilities...but I good point as I do need to run scripts.
> 
> --
> Tony Clark
> Contract ASIC, FPGA, VHDL and Digital Design Services
> Mobile +46 702 894 667

--
Bradley Browne
GIS Application Specialist
Digital Mapping Solutions

Level 2, 2 Hardy Street
South Perth 6151
Ph: 08 9474 6311   Fax: 08 9474 6411
email: brad at mapsys.com.au
http://www.mapsys.com.au/


From Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au  Tue Sep  5 15:31:15 2000
From: Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au (Brian Tombleson)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:31:15 +0800
Subject: [plug] Linux/win2k dual boot
Message-ID: <004b01c0170b$4661af60$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bret Busby" <bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: [plug] Linux/win2k dual boot


> Tony Clark wrote:
> > Has anyone setup a dual boot system with win2k.  My laptop currently
dual boots
> > NT and linux, but I was thinking off adding a larger virus to reduce
> > productivity  :)...Alas I do have to keep win something on it

> That might not be such a good idea.
> >From what I have seen of Win2K, the only way that a command line prompt
> can be obtained, is to reboot a Win2K machine, into DOS mode; what I saw
> of it, lacked either a DOS window facility, or its equivalent. Thus, if
> a user wanted to do any troubleshooting, for example, when in an
> internet connection, and downloading from an Internet site is either
> very slow, or, not happening, and the user wants to ping the Internet
> site, or, do a traceroute, the only way to do it, is to reboot the
> machine, into the Win2K DOS mode, like the safe mode, thus, losing the
> Internet connection, unless going through a gateway. It is a way of
> keeping users away from the command line.

Well, I used ping and tracert today on a win2k machine .. the 'Command
Prompt' is in Start->Programs->Accessories

I wouldn't recommend going to W2K, but not because it's harder to find the
command prompt.

Regards,

Brian Tombleson
Paradigm IT Consulting
www at ParadigmIT.com.au





From lette at it.net.au  Tue Sep  5 15:39:05 2000
From: lette at it.net.au (Quintin Lette)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 15:39:05 +0800
Subject: [plug] Linux/win2k dual boot
In-Reply-To: <39B47A39.62B4D4DD@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
References: <00090514454200.00803@traveller>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000905152756.00b58060@home.it.net.au>

Yes I'm successfully running a Windows 2000, Linux (Debian Potato for those 
who must know) dual boot.

Dual boot setup done same way as for NT4,  Scripting no probs (as Windows 
2000 has its own scripting host), Command prompts no problem (its just not 
in the same menu as win9x) easiest way to get it is typing cmd in run 
window! traceroute *tracert in windows* is available, so is ping, nslookup, 
etc, so dont worry too much :)

The only thing I would worry about is whether win2k drivers are available 
for your system, especially display drivers (as BSODs happen with some of 
the worse ones), and whether or not the apps you use are supported (also 
not a major problem, as most NT4 apps run fine).

On a notebook I would use Windows 2000 over NT4 any day.  And as Dual 
booting Linux and Win2k is the same as NT4/Linux I can't complain :)

Btw Ive had a Win2k/Linux dual boot system since Win2k beta 3(about May 
1999) and never really had any probs with either operating system with 
regards to the dual boot :)

Just my opinion :)




At 12:44 PM 5/09/2000 +0800, you wrote:
>Tony Clark wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone setup a dual boot system with win2k.  My laptop currently 
> dual boots
> > NT and linux, but I was thinking off adding a larger virus to reduce
> > productivity  :)...Alas I do have to keep win something on it
> >
> > Tony Clark
> > Contract ASIC, FPGA, VHDL and Digital Design Services
> > Mobile +46 702 894 667
>
>That might not be such a good idea.
>
> >From what I have seen of Win2K, the only way that a command line prompt
>can be obtained, is to reboot a Win2K machine, into DOS mode; what I saw
>of it, lacked either a DOS window facility, or its equivalent. Thus, if
>a user wanted to do any troubleshooting, for example, when in an
>internet connection, and downloading from an Internet site is either
>very slow, or, not happening, and the user wants to ping the Internet
>site, or, do a traceroute, the only way to do it, is to reboot the
>machine, into the Win2K DOS mode, like the safe mode, thus, losing the
>Internet connection, unless going through a gateway. It is a way of
>keeping users away from the command line.
>
>However, if you want to decrease productivity, it seems to be a very
>good tool for that.
>
> >From what I have seen of Win2K, the only thing that it has going for it,
>is that it has some good desktop backgrounds. Apart from that, it
>appears to be a heap of....
>
>I would be inclined to stay with WinNT 4 (without service packs after
>#4, as they tend to sabotage non-MS software, from what I have been
>advised).
>
>But, that is just my opinion.
>
>--
>
>Bret Busby
>
>......................................



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  5 15:35:54 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 15:35:54 +0800
Subject: [plug] Linux/win2k dual boot
References: <004b01c0170b$4661af60$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>
Message-ID: <39B4A258.1AB9255D@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Brian Tombleson wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bret Busby" <bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au>
> Subject: Re: [plug] Linux/win2k dual boot
> 
> > Tony Clark wrote:
> > > Has anyone setup a dual boot system with win2k.  My laptop currently
> dual boots
> > > NT and linux, but I was thinking off adding a larger virus to reduce
> > > productivity  :)...Alas I do have to keep win something on it
> 
> > That might not be such a good idea.
> > >From what I have seen of Win2K, the only way that a command line prompt
> > can be obtained, is to reboot a Win2K machine, into DOS mode; what I saw
> > of it, lacked either a DOS window facility, or its equivalent. Thus, if
> > a user wanted to do any troubleshooting, for example, when in an
> > internet connection, and downloading from an Internet site is either
> > very slow, or, not happening, and the user wants to ping the Internet
> > site, or, do a traceroute, the only way to do it, is to reboot the
> > machine, into the Win2K DOS mode, like the safe mode, thus, losing the
> > Internet connection, unless going through a gateway. It is a way of
> > keeping users away from the command line.
> 
> Well, I used ping and tracert today on a win2k machine .. the 'Command
> Prompt' is in Start->Programs->Accessories
> 
> I wouldn't recommend going to W2K, but not because it's harder to find the
> command prompt.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Brian Tombleson
> Paradigm IT Consulting
> www at ParadigmIT.com.au

Alright, everybody...

It must have been something wonky, in the places that I saw it set up.
The DOS prompt could not be found, following that process, and the only
way apparent of getting to a DOS prompt on those machines, was by
rebooting into the DOS mode.

The computers on which I saw it setup, were Wintel boxes, desktop
machines, so, I can conclude only that, in the cases of those paricular
installations, the DOS prompt was not available, other than by rebooting
into DOS mode.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Tue Sep  5 15:49:07 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:49:07 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Linux/win2k dual boot
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000905152756.00b58060@home.it.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905154656.9441D-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Quintin Lette wrote:
> Dual boot setup done same way as for NT4,  Scripting no probs (as Windows 
> 2000 has its own scripting host)
I've heard this term a few times now. Can someone tell me what a
"scripting host" is? I presume it's either just a shell/interpreter or
perhaps a seperate userland akin to the POSIX userland amongst others?

-Greg Mildenhall



From kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au  Tue Sep  5 16:09:19 2000
From: kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au (Shackleton, Kevin)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:09:19 +0800 
Subject: [plug] Linux/win2k dual boot
Message-ID: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E3042D@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>

A machine that keeps running .vbs scripts without you knowing?  ;-)

K.

> ----------
> From: 	The Thought Assassin[SMTP:assassin at live.wasp.net.au]
> Can someone tell me what a "scripting host" is?


From jas at whatever.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  5 16:29:07 2000
From: jas at whatever.iinet.net.au (Jason :))
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:29:07 +0800
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
In-Reply-To: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919DA5D7B@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <COEHJKDMHELHODMMOHMGGECMCAAA.jas@whatever.iinet.net.au>

i assume you man the time betwwen calls? it depends on your ISP. Most
(including mine) have guidelines that they like you to wait a certain time
between calls...some say 5 minutes, others 15. You should check with them.

-----Original Message-----
From: Shackleton, Kevin [mailto:kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au]
Sent: Tuesday, 5 September 2000 8:46 AM
To: plug at plug.linux.org.au
Subject: RE: [plug] Linux support for schools


<snip>

BTW, what, in Oz, is considered a 'reasonable holdoff'?  A minute?  Or more?
I vaguely recall something in a modem manual suggesting it was naughty to
slam calls through end-to-end.

K.

K.

> ----------
> From: 	Mike Holland[SMTP:myk at golden.wattle.id.au]
>
> /etc/rc.d/rc.local is the place to add start-up code. e.g. something like
>
>   hour=`date +%H`
>   if [ ($hour -lt 18) -a ($hour -ge 6) ] then ppp-on;
>
>




From cwilliam at erggroup.com  Tue Sep  5 16:36:36 2000
From: cwilliam at erggroup.com (cwilliam at erggroup.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:36:36 +0800
Subject: [plug] unsubscribe?
Message-ID: <OFD593BB5D.8A1F01F8-ON48256951.002F350E@erggroup.com>

How to?

---------------------------- ERG Group --------------------------
 The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential
 and may only be read by the intended recipient.
-----------------------------------------------------------------



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  5 16:36:48 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:36:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
References: <COEHJKDMHELHODMMOHMGGECMCAAA.jas@whatever.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B4B0A0.DB4D5C06@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

"Jason :)" wrote:
> 
> i assume you man the time betwwen calls? it depends on your ISP. Most
> (including mine) have guidelines that they like you to wait a certain time
> between calls...some say 5 minutes, others 15. You should check with them.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shackleton, Kevin [mailto:kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, 5 September 2000 8:46 AM
> To: plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Subject: RE: [plug] Linux support for schools
> 
> <snip>
> 
> BTW, what, in Oz, is considered a 'reasonable holdoff'?  A minute?  Or more?
> I vaguely recall something in a modem manual suggesting it was naughty to
> slam calls through end-to-end.
> 
> K.
> 
> K.
> 
> > ----------
> > From:         Mike Holland[SMTP:myk at golden.wattle.id.au]
> >
> > /etc/rc.d/rc.local is the place to add start-up code. e.g. something like
> >
> >   hour=`date +%H`
> >   if [ ($hour -lt 18) -a ($hour -ge 6) ] then ppp-on;
> >
> >

Doesn't the above, only apply to the contracts with minimum connect time
guarantees, such as the 2 hour minimum connect time guarantee, as
opposed to the semi-permanent connection, which appears to be to what
the query relates (unless I am mistaken)?

I would expect that a semi-permanent connection, if terminated (other
than for non-payment, or, otherwise cancelling or supsending the
contract), would be permitted to be re-established immediately.

Perhaps Matt, or someone similar, could clarify this?

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From thallam at ee.uwa.edu.au  Tue Sep  5 16:43:30 2000
From: thallam at ee.uwa.edu.au (Tom Hallam)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:43:30 +0800
Subject: [plug] REMINDER - SAGE-WA September Meeting.
Message-ID: <39B4B232.46FDC403@ee.uwa.edu.au>

----------------------------------+----------------------------------

                       SAGE-WA September Meeting

               System Administrators Guild of Australia
                          WA Regional Group
                      http://www.sage-au.org.au/

----------------------------------+----------------------------------

Date:       Wednesday 6th September
Time:       Pre Meeting drinks at back of pub	6:00pm
            Meeting starts in Raine Room  	6:30pm

Location:   The Moon and Sixpence
            300 Murray St Perth

            The meeting will be in Raine Room

            ***    NOTE CHANGE IN ROOM    ***

            Go to the right as you come in the
            main doors of the moon and sixpence
            
Meeting Topic:

	File Systems - VERITAS Foundation Products

Stuart Hall, the WA Channel Manager for Veritas, shall give a talk 
on the VERITAS Foundation Products which consists of the VERITAS 
File System and VERITAS Volume Manager.  Stuart Hall has been 
involved in the computing industry for over 15 years and has been
with VERITAS now for about 18 months.

This promises to be a very interesting talk on File systems and 
Volume Managers.  Veritas is a well respected file system used on
many operating systems.

After the meeting:
       Some light food will be available after the meeting.  
       Stay around, have a drink and get to know your fellow
       system administrators

If you are interested in SAGE or just curious then please come along
to the meeting.  If you are a SAGE member then please bring a friend
or associate.

If you wish to have some input into the future of SAGE-WA or wish to
know more about future meetings and are not able to attend this
meeting then please contact me.

----------------------------------+----------------------------------
-- 
*****************************************************************
Tom Hallam                                     ph: (08) 9380 1634
Information Systems Manager.                  fax: (08) 9380 1065
Dept. Electrical and Electronic Engineering. mobile: 0410 453 630
University of Western Australia                           rm: G72
http://www.ee.uwa.edu.au/~thallam    mailto:thallam at ee.uwa.edu.au
*****************************************************************


From colinr at tiwest.com.au  Tue Sep  5 16:46:34 2000
From: colinr at tiwest.com.au (Colin Rothnie)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:46:34 +0800 
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
Message-ID: <E9EDEF4E768BD311BE0B00A0C9D4C42835E231@minxs1.tiwest.com.au>

I don't think the ISP would really care all that much.  If it was an issue,
they would prevent the user from logging on for a certain hold-off period at
the ISP end rather than rely on the customer to "be good" about it.  If so,
match your automatic hold-off to the ISP's.

It may be more of an issue if something goes wrong at the ISP's server end
and your gateway attempts to reconnect every 30 seconds, you could clock up
a hefty Telstra bill within a short space of time.

Certainly when people are manually connecting to the ISP and having problems
with passwords (CAPS LOCK etc) they will attempt to reconnect as fast as
they can.  Why waste your time hanging about in case someone gets annoyed at
the ISP?  They wont even notice.

Colin Rothnie



From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep  5 16:53:45 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:53:45 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
In-Reply-To: <39B4B0A0.DB4D5C06@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905165259.16280Y-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> I would expect that a semi-permanent connection, if terminated (other
> than for non-payment, or, otherwise cancelling or supsending the
> contract), would be permitted to be re-established immediately.
> 
> Perhaps Matt, or someone similar, could clarify this?

I thought he was more referring to Telstra being annoyed at connections
being redialed every second, therefore unnecessarily tying up lines.

 - Matt



From batesy at rave.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  5 17:31:25 2000
From: batesy at rave.iinet.net.au (Jonathon Bates)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 17:31:25 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Sendmail that came with RH6
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009051730500.28656-100000@rave.iinet.net.au>

Hi guys, 
Just wondering what hte sort of security holes are in sendmail!
And if sendmail.org willhave all the patches online.

Cheers
Batesy





From alpha at indigo.net.au  Tue Sep  5 20:55:21 2000
From: alpha at indigo.net.au (Joshua Pierre)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:55:21 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web Site
Message-ID: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au>

Well,

Finally the final site is up at http://plug.linux.org.au/~alpha/index.phtml
It will be updated, spelleched etc but the content is there and the looks too =)

So have a peek and tell me what you think.

Cheers

Josh

-- 
Joshua Pierre		Indigo Networks - Technical Support
alpha at indigo.net.au	http://www.indigo.net.au



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  5 20:47:58 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 20:47:58 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web Site
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Joshua Pierre wrote:
> 
> Well,
> 
> Finally the final site is up at http://plug.linux.org.au/~alpha/index.phtml
> It will be updated, spelleched etc but the content is there and the looks too =)
> 
> So have a peek and tell me what you think.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Josh
> 
> --
> Joshua Pierre           Indigo Networks - Technical Support
> alpha at indigo.net.au     http://www.indigo.net.au

What does "spelleched" mean?

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From billk at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  5 21:10:00 2000
From: billk at iinet.net.au (BillK)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:10:00 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au>

Anybody have any experiance of viewing acrobat files made by exporting
from MSword 8.0 (as pdf's of course).  One of the lecturers at Murdoch
has decided to distibute his notes in this form (on a unix based
subject!) and I am unable to print them under linux using acrobat
reader.  I am also unable to use another program as they are password
protected which means kghostview etc cannot get a look in!  My thoughts
are that MSword is producing a slightly nonstandard file that upsets the
print drivers when printing under Linux.  Other pdf's print and seem
OK.  There was also the bug where you have to run X in 16bit mode (in my
case) to enable acrobat to even startup! - seems a bit of a dud of a
program under linux!

And of course, they work flawlessly under acrobat reader on windows:(

BillK


From Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au  Tue Sep  5 21:26:03 2000
From: Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 21:26:03 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web Site
In-Reply-To: <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <NDBBKJLCGDKIONEINKJACEFMCHAA.Jeremy@Malcolm.wattle.id.au>

> What does "spelleched" mean?

It obviously means something that doesn't show up "Maling list" as an error.

--
Independent consulting solicitor* | _ .__ ._ _    |\/| _.| _ _ |._ _
and technology consultant.**    \_|(/_|(/_| | |\/ |  |(_||(_(_)|| | |
Personal site: http://malcolm.wattle.id.au     /   Finger for GPG key
* http://www.ilaw.com.au ** http://www.terminus.net.au jm at ilaw.com.au



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  5 21:40:31 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:40:31 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web Site
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B4F7CF.FBA11463@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Joshua Pierre wrote:
> 
> Well,
> 
> Finally the final site is up at http://plug.linux.org.au/~alpha/index.phtml
> It will be updated, spelleched etc but the content is there and the looks too =)
> 
> So have a peek and tell me what you think.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Josh
> 
> --
> Joshua Pierre           Indigo Networks - Technical Support
> alpha at indigo.net.au     http://www.indigo.net.au

A question, and, one or two suggestions, etc...

1. Question - what is phtml?

2. demo screen, from News page - is 1024 x 768; maybe 800 x 600 would be
better, for those poor people of us, who cannot afford 17" and larger
monitors, and graphics cards with resolution higher than 800 x 600. The
content of the demo screen is good - showing multitasking. Perhaps, a
comment, that it is the GNOME desktop or windows manager (or whatever
exactly it is named), for people not familiar with Linux, and,
indicating that it is only one of the possible desktops (or windows
managers or wahtever), would be good. (I assume it is GNOME, from the
footprint)

3. The header, across the top, and, the menu down the left side, of the
web pages, - perhaps they could be better done as frames? That way, they
would not need to be downloaded, and, redrawn, when one of the internal
links on the website is followed.

4. Any chance of mugshots of the office-bearers? Treasurer on Members
page is misspelt. Perhaps, on Members page, if not names, then, a count,
might be useful?

5. Can you include some Perl or PHP, to display information, such as
"Driven by Apache, version...", "This server powered by Linux
version...", etc, to show that it is not running on MS products?

6. Google Search, top right corner - should that have something like a
"Go", or, a "Search", button, beside the text box?

7. Menu on left side, should have a "Home" option, to return to the home
page.

8. On the Resources -> Other Links page, how about including a link to
www.li.org? also, since Caldera are a sponsor of the Installfest, how
about including them, in the Distributions links?

9. On the Acknowledgements page, there is no link for the Tennyson
group. I assume that they do not have an Internet presence. If that is
correct, as they provide a meeting place (I assume that it is free of
charge), how about Matt offering them a web presence on the PLUG server
(barter - a favour for a favour), and, including a link on the
Acknowledgements page?

10. Since Jeremy mentioned it (and, I missed it), in the menu on the
left side, "Maling List" appears to show that all the members are males,
in desperate need of females...

11. The name, in the top left corner - could it be made a bit bigger,
with the font operhaps a little more open? On my 15", 800 x 600 screen,
it is a little difficult to read.

The above are just suggestions, etc, intended to be helpful. Keep up the
good work...

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From shane at digiturbo.com.au  Tue Sep  5 22:03:40 2000
From: shane at digiturbo.com.au (Shane Spina)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 22:03:40 +0800
Subject: [plug] Lexmark Optra R+
Message-ID: <00e001c01742$17f22740$d2a3a8c0@bizzpro.com.au>

has anyone got an Lexmark Optra R+ to work on Debian? I have seen rpm's for all the other *nix's but wondered if there was a .deb package or if there is a generic postscript driver that would work... client are going to be windoze 98 and NT wkst 4

tia

shane spina

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From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Tue Sep  5 22:23:26 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:23:26 +0800
Subject: [plug] circular reference
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B501DE.6FF3D77B@brooks.smileys.net>

Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> Joshua Pierre wrote:
> > Finally the final site is up at http://plug.linux.org.au/~alpha/index.phtml
> > It will be updated, spelleched etc but the content is there and the looks too =)

> What does "spelleched" mean?

One of two things:

(1) Alpha is giving us an email preview of his need for a spellchecker. This is
good, because it indicates that he's not blind to his own faults, one of
mankind's collective greatest weaknesses; or

(2) Spelleched, n, a messy form of erasure which this dictionary refuses to
detail.

-- 
"At Fluke we spend about 5 times as much per Microsoft seat as for Unix
seat in support costs. [...] I see notices at least once a week warning
of [NT] down time. Our Unix systems & our bootleg Linux systems rarely
go down - running for months without a single glitch." -- Steven Swift


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Tue Sep  5 22:31:55 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:31:55 +0800
Subject: [plug] website: phtml, screenshot sizes, etc
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4F7CF.FBA11463@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B503DB.EB50D771@brooks.smileys.net>

Bret Busby wrote:
> A question, and, one or two suggestions, etc...

> 1. Question - what is phtml?

HTML with embedded PHP script.

> 2. demo screen, from News page - is 1024 x 768; maybe 800 x 600 would be
> better

How about a set of scaled choices? 1600x1200 1024x768 800x600 640x480 for
example?

> 3. The header, across the top, and, the menu down the left side, of the
> web pages, - perhaps they could be better done as frames? That way, they
> would not need to be downloaded, and, redrawn, when one of the internal
> links on the website is followed.

It's a pain in the rectum for a framesless browser. Because Josh has used PHP it
should actually be possible to do both (plus maybe a text version) by, for
example, referencing the same URIs through different hostnames, and coding
accordingly. Maybe later.

> 4. Any chance of mugshots of the office-bearers? Treasurer on Members
> page is misspelt. Perhaps, on Members page, if not names, then, a count,
> might be useful?

The one from Sesame Street would be classic!

> 5. Can you include some Perl or PHP, to display information, such as
> "Driven by Apache, version...", "This server powered by Linux
> version...", etc, to show that it is not running on MS products?

Try this:

    lynx -dump -head http://plug.linux.org.au/

> 6. Google Search, top right corner - should that have something like a
> "Go", or, a "Search", button, beside the text box?

It doesn't actually need it. Just press Enter. An "I'm feeling lucky" might be
appropriate, though.

> "Maling List" appears to show that all the members are males,
> in desperate need of females...

Speak for yourself. I have a surfeit of them. (-:

> 11. The name, in the top left corner - could it be made a bit bigger,
> with the font operhaps a little more open? On my 15", 800 x 600 screen,
> it is a little difficult to read.

Bigger, yes. Using more than times/helvetica/courier cross-platform often fails.
I usually use <font face="$PREFERREDFONT,helvetica,sans-serif"> as this gets a
serfless font on anything not text-based. I must confess that my $PREFERREDFONT
is verdana.

-- 
"If I employed software developers, and they gave me something
like this, I'd shoot them." -- Abby Franquemont, on Windows


From myk at golden.wattle.id.au  Tue Sep  5 22:58:12 2000
From: myk at golden.wattle.id.au (Mike Holland)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 22:58:12 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Web Site
In-Reply-To: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009052134100.15880-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>

> So have a peek and tell me what you think.

( you are expecting nit-picking beta-testing, right? )

- hacked use of tables for controlling layout
- over-riding users font choices
- gratuitous use of latency-pumping animated gifs

yep, looks like your standard professional web page alright :)

It passes the lynx test with flying colours, so should be readable on lots
of platforms.

  Lets try it on InternetExploder ... hey! It looks much better.
You didnt design it on and for windoze, did you??? You bastard!
Lets see the source ...

  <font face="verdana, helvectia, arial" size="-1">

Is verdana a windoze font, or should I have in in X? And is there really a
font called helvectia, or is that a typo for helvetica?

  Lets test it with the W3C validator (an essential check for all web
sites). Needs a bit of work. See:

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fplug.linux.org.au%2F%7Ealpha%2Findex.phtml

Thanks for the effort - it looks good, despite the animated gif.

-- 
Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
                          --==--





From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep  5 23:02:32 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:02:32 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Web Site
In-Reply-To: <39B4F7CF.FBA11463@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905224723.16280Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> 1. Question - what is phtml?

PHP enabled html.
 
> 2. demo screen, from News page - is 1024 x 768; maybe 800 x 600 would be
> better,

I gather from "demo screen" he means it's a temporary screenshot just to
show what sort of content he wants to put there, and just did a screenshot
of his own screen as a temporary thing, and is inviting submissions.

> 3. The header, across the top, and, the menu down the left side, of the
> web pages, - perhaps they could be better done as frames?

Please no!
Frames are an abomination.

> 4. Any chance of mugshots of the office-bearers?

That can be arranged. I have recently acquired a digital camera (and I
found real decent Linux software for it too)

> Perhaps, on Members page, if not names, then, a count, might be useful?

A count would be good. (Tony?) Names of those who wish to be named will be
up there too, linked into a bio page generated by the much-fanfared perl
script that is yet to be written.

> 5. Can you include some Perl or PHP, to display information, such as
> "Driven by Apache, version...", "This server powered by Linux
> version...", etc, to show that it is not running on MS products?

That would be nice.. "Sparc Driven" or something would be good
too.  The temporary page I put up before Ian uploaded the website had some
nice images that could be used.  http://plug.linux.org.au/about/

> 6. Google Search, top right corner - should that have something like a
> "Go", or, a "Search", button, beside the text box?

Just type text and press enter.
Even works under lynx.

Speaking of which (because that's all I can use from home atm) it might be
nice to change some of the image alt tags to something a little more
meaningful, to make the pages a little more lynx friendly.

> charge), how about Matt offering them a web presence on the PLUG server
> (barter - a favour for a favour), and, including a link on the
> Acknowledgements page?

I'm happy with that (providing of course they don't generate _TOO_ much
traffic)
 
> 10. Since Jeremy mentioned it (and, I missed it), in the menu on the
> left side, "Maling List" appears to show that all the members are males,
> in desperate need of females...

Aren't we? :)

Send your Speling corrections to the "webmonkey" (as it says down the
bottom of each page)
 
> The above are just suggestions, etc, intended to be helpful. Keep up the
> good work...

Seconded.

 - Matt



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  5 23:29:39 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 23:29:39 +0800
Subject: [plug] website: phtml, screenshot sizes, etc
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4F7CF.FBA11463@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B503DB.EB50D771@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39B51163.16770817@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Leon Brooks wrote:
> 
> Bret Busby wrote:
> > A question, and, one or two suggestions, etc...
> 
> > 1. Question - what is phtml?
> 
> HTML with embedded PHP script.

I thought that the extension .php , indicated that. Am I correct in
that? If so, does that mean that they just indicate the same thing?

> 
> > 2. demo screen, from News page - is 1024 x 768; maybe 800 x 600 would be
> > better
> 
> How about a set of scaled choices? 1600x1200 1024x768 800x600 640x480 for
> example?

Perhaps, a set of links to each, so that a visitor can choose?

> 
> > 3. The header, across the top, and, the menu down the left side, of the
> > web pages, - perhaps they could be better done as frames? That way, they
> > would not need to be downloaded, and, redrawn, when one of the internal
> > links on the website is followed.
> 
> It's a pain in the rectum for a framesless browser. Because Josh has used PHP it
> should actually be possible to do both (plus maybe a text version) by, for
> example, referencing the same URIs through different hostnames, and coding
> accordingly. Maybe later.

Using frames in HTML, usually has an alternative, for frameless
browsers.

> 
> > 4. Any chance of mugshots of the office-bearers? Treasurer on Members
> > page is misspelt. Perhaps, on Members page, if not names, then, a count,
> > might be useful?
> 
> The one from Sesame Street would be classic!

Nein, nein... I meant the number of members... However, a picture of M
le Compte de Sesame Street, could be interesting...

> 
> > 5. Can you include some Perl or PHP, to display information, such as
> > "Driven by Apache, version...", "This server powered by Linux
> > version...", etc, to show that it is not running on MS products?
> 
> Try this:
> 
>     lynx -dump -head http://plug.linux.org.au/

Not being a user of Lynx, what does that do?

I have just had a look around, and I am having trouble finding any
website that includes these logo's at the bottom of the home page;
"Powered by...Linux", or "Powered by Apache", or, anything like that.
Even the local ISP's , or, the ones that I visited (iinet, dialix, wasp,
amnet), do not appear to display that. I am surprised, the GNU, PHP,
Perl, PostgreSQL, li.org, slug.org.au, opensource.org, gnome.org,
kde.org, freshmeat.net, slashdot.org, debian.org, corel.com,
caldera.com, websites do not display these logo's. I had believed that
the purpose of these websites, was to promote Linux, and Apache, and
related products. If they don't, that doesn't mean that PLUG shouldn't.
The redhat site does say that it is powered by redhat linux, but does
not mention a web server application.

> 
> > 6. Google Search, top right corner - should that have something like a
> > "Go", or, a "Search", button, beside the text box?
> 
> It doesn't actually need it. Just press Enter. An "I'm feeling lucky" might be
> appropriate, though.

Perhaps, an instruction "Key in the search topic, and press Enter",
would make it more clear...

> 
> > "Maling List" appears to show that all the members are males,
> > in desperate need of females...
> 
> Speak for yourself. I have a surfeit of them. (-:

Is that from that naked butt site...?

> 
> > 11. The name, in the top left corner - could it be made a bit bigger,
> > with the font operhaps a little more open? On my 15", 800 x 600 screen,
> > it is a little difficult to read.
> 
> Bigger, yes. Using more than times/helvetica/courier cross-platform often fails.
> I usually use <font face="$PREFERREDFONT,helvetica,sans-serif"> as this gets a
> serfless font on anything not text-based. I must confess that my $PREFERREDFONT
> is verdana.
> 


> --
> "If I employed software developers, and they gave me something
> like this, I'd shoot them." -- Abby Franquemont, on Windows

Perhaps, the solution to Windows, is defenestration?
-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep  5 23:53:26 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:53:26 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] website: phtml, screenshot sizes, etc
In-Reply-To: <39B51163.16770817@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905234312.16280e-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> I thought that the extension .php , indicated that. Am I correct in
> that? If so, does that mean that they just indicate the same thing?

Yes and yes.

I think .phtml looks prettier but what's in a name, really?
 
> > How about a set of scaled choices? 1600x1200 1024x768 800x600 640x480 for
> > example?
> 
> Perhaps, a set of links to each, so that a visitor can choose?

I think that's what Leon implied.
 
> Using frames in HTML, usually has an alternative, for frameless
> browsers.

But frames are a pain in the behind on any browser.
(IMHO of course)
 
> > Try this:
> > 
> >     lynx -dump -head http://plug.linux.org.au/
> 
> Not being a user of Lynx, what does that do?

Prints the headers of the webpage as returned by the webserver, in this
case including one that says:

Server: Apache/1.3.9 (Unix) Debian/SPARC PHP/3.0.15

I presume Leon was referring to that.
 
> I have just had a look around, and I am having trouble finding any
> website that includes these logo's at the bottom of the home page;
> "Powered by...Linux", or "Powered by Apache", or, anything like that.

> related products. If they don't, that doesn't mean that PLUG shouldn't.

I agree, some info on the hardware and software we're running would be
great.

> Perhaps, an instruction "Key in the search topic, and press Enter",
> would make it more clear...

"Make something completely foolproof, and only a fool will want to use it"
or
why clutter it up unnecessarily?

> Perhaps, the solution to Windows, is defenestration?

I'll go along with that.
Any companies on this list care to donate copies of windoze we can chuck
out cantech's windows at the installfest? :)

Or maybe we ask the newcomers to bring their windows cds along and tell
'em it's an initiation ritual...

 - Matt



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  5 23:54:17 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 23:54:17 +0800
Subject: [plug] website: phtml, screenshot sizes, etc
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905234312.16280e-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B51729.17CE6647@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Matt Kemner wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
<snip>

> 
> > > Try this:
> > >
> > >     lynx -dump -head http://plug.linux.org.au/
> >
> > Not being a user of Lynx, what does that do?
> 
> Prints the headers of the webpage as returned by the webserver, in this
> case including one that says:
> 
> Server: Apache/1.3.9 (Unix) Debian/SPARC PHP/3.0.15
> 
> I presume Leon was referring to that.
> 
> > I have just had a look around, and I am having trouble finding any
> > website that includes these logo's at the bottom of the home page;
> > "Powered by...Linux", or "Powered by Apache", or, anything like that.
> 
> > related products. If they don't, that doesn't mean that PLUG shouldn't.
> 
> I agree, some info on the hardware and software we're running would be
> great.
> 

As an aside, perhaps the ISP's on the list (and those on the list, who
work for ISP's, could suggest it to their bosses),  could perhaps
consider the inclusion of such things on the ISP's home pages, to
promote the cause?

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From niall at linuxsolutions.net.au  Tue Sep  5 19:52:17 2000
From: niall at linuxsolutions.net.au (Niall Young)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 19:52:17 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905195053.10142B-100000@mail.linuxsolutions.net.au>

> On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Nathan Alberti wrote:
>
> > Excuse my ignorance but what companies in perth are set up to supply
> > support/maintence for a simple linux server to a school in perth ?
>
> This was discussed awhile ago.   Several members of the list do this BUT IIRC
> there are no companies that provide this service ATM.

I do.

--

Niall Young
niall at linuxsolutions.net.au

		Linux Solutions -- www.linuxsolutions.net.au
	Providing Internet and Audio/Video Solutions and Consulting
		Ph: 0407 421 537 -- info at linuxsolutions.net.au
			PO BOX 1117, Gwelup WA 6018





From niall at linuxsolutions.net.au  Wed Sep  6 00:18:34 2000
From: niall at linuxsolutions.net.au (Niall Young)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 00:18:34 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000906001558.10444F-101000@mail.linuxsolutions.net.au>

> Looks like both a cron to check the link is up and something in rc.local
> would do the job.  The script should not dial on the weekend of course.
> There's a loss of elegance in having the should-be-connected times in two
> locations (the everyday cron and the recovery technique).  I suppose I could
> make a single script containing the should-be-connected times and call that
> from rc.local and a frequently-called cron.  Have to borrow my bash book
> back . .

Personally I'd use the one script, started on bootup, which handles persistant
redials (and some sanity checking so your phone bill isn't outrageous if the
ISP's end is down).  No real need for a cronjob, you can do everything all in
the one place.  I've attached a few scripts that evolved and were rewritten in
english , it would be trivial to add some day/time checking to make sure it only
dials at the right times, otherwise it'll sleep for x seconds and keep testing
the date until conditions are safe to dial.  What exactly do you need it to do?

> BTW, what, in Oz, is considered a 'reasonable holdoff'?  A minute?  Or more?
> I vaguely recall something in a modem manual suggesting it was naughty to
> slam calls through end-to-end.

You can redial seconds after hanging up, no problem, it's just if the ISP's
systems are broken you may be making phone calls at the rate of 10-20/minute,
@25c/call for however long they're down.

--

Niall Young
niall at linuxsolutions.net.au

		Linux Solutions -- www.linuxsolutions.net.au
	Providing Internet and Audio/Video Solutions and Consulting
		Ph: 0407 421 537 -- info at linuxsolutions.net.au
			PO BOX 1117, Gwelup WA 6018


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From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Wed Sep  6 00:38:16 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 00:38:16 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web Site
In-Reply-To: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au>; from alpha@indigo.net.au on Tue, Sep 05, 2000 at 08:55:21PM +0800
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000906003816.B825@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

G'day,

On Tue, Sep 05, 2000 at 08:55:21PM +0800, Joshua Pierre wrote:
> Well,
> 
> Finally the final site is up at http://plug.linux.org.au/~alpha/index.phtml
> It will be updated, spelleched etc but the content is there and the looks too =)
> So have a peek and tell me what you think.

- I suggest running it through the w3 validator (http://validator.w3.org/) and
  make sure that it meets the HTML 4.01 transitional specification. I'd also
  suggest getting rid of all font tags and using CSS for styling.

  Also, body text should have serifs for readability. ie: leave as default
  font or use a serif style.

- Perhaps some more spacing between the cells that separate the navigation and
  the content (they are right up against each other).

- Perhaps a little ad section which rotates through popular Linux apps and web
  sites (eg: Apache, Slashdot, Freshmeat, PHP, etc...). Since the web site is
  meant to be about PLUG, use the small 80x30 type ads (see
  http://jason.mindsocket.com.au for an example and source for a couple).

- On the news page, have the date first (LHS) in the title so they line up.

- There is no navigation item (or anything else) that links back to
  index.phtml.

- The logo is difficult to read.

Other than those things (which I'm sure will annoy you ;)) it's looking great.


Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Wed Sep  6 00:48:35 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 00:48:35 +0800
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905165259.16280Y-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>; from zombie@wasp.net.au on Tue, Sep 05, 2000 at 04:53:45PM +0800
References: <39B4B0A0.DB4D5C06@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905165259.16280Y-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000906004835.D825@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

Hiya,

On Tue, Sep 05, 2000 at 04:53:45PM +0800, Matt Kemner wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > I would expect that a semi-permanent connection, if terminated (other
> > than for non-payment, or, otherwise cancelling or supsending the
> > contract), would be permitted to be re-established immediately.
> > 
> > Perhaps Matt, or someone similar, could clarify this?
> 
> I thought he was more referring to Telstra being annoyed at connections
> being redialed every second, therefore unnecessarily tying up lines.

There was (I don't know about now) rules about how quickly you could redial a
modem if the called number was busy. The timing sucked pretty bad, something 
like wait x seconds between the first 3 attempts, then wait 10x seconds
between further attempts.


Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From james at rcpt.to  Wed Sep  6 00:50:20 2000
From: james at rcpt.to (James Bromberger)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 00:50:20 +0800
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000906001558.10444F-101000@mail.linuxsolutions.net.au>; from niall@linuxsolutions.net.au on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 12:18:34AM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000906001558.10444F-101000@mail.linuxsolutions.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000906005020.A50270@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 12:18:34AM +0800, Niall Young wrote:
> Personally I'd use the one script, started on bootup, which handles persistant
> redials (and some sanity checking so your phone bill isn't outrageous if the
> ISP's end is down).  No real need for a cronjob, you can do everything all in
> the one place.  I've attached a few scripts that evolved and were rewritten in
> english , it would be trivial to add some day/time checking to make sure it only
> dials at the right times, otherwise it'll sleep for x seconds and keep testing
> the date until conditions are safe to dial.  What exactly do you need it to do?
> 
> > BTW, what, in Oz, is considered a 'reasonable holdoff'?  A minute?  Or more?
> > I vaguely recall something in a modem manual suggesting it was naughty to
> > slam calls through end-to-end.
> 
> You can redial seconds after hanging up, no problem, it's just if the ISP's
> systems are broken you may be making phone calls at the rate of 10-20/minute,
> @25c/call for however long they're down.
 
RTFM on pppd. persist means if you get disconnected, redial. holdoff nnnn 
means that if I am persisting, wait nnnn number of seconds before redialing. 
Try setting nnnn to something like 60 or 600.

Of course, you can do a more sensible approch: an incremental delay 
(ie, 5 seconds, 15 seconds, a minute, two minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 
and then every ten minutes), but if you want it working _now_, then 
use holdoff and persist in your /etc/ppp/peers/provider file (or 
whichever peer file you want).

Yours,
  James

-- 
 James Bromberger <james_AT_bromberger.com> www.rcpt.to/~james
   IT, Pelican Manufacturing - www.pelicanmanufacturing.com.au
   Snr Web Systems Admin, JDV - www.jdv.com  *  www.hartleypoynton.com.au

 Remainder moved to http://www.rcpt.to/~james/james/sig.html


From erazmus at wantree.com.au  Wed Sep  6 01:10:36 2000
From: erazmus at wantree.com.au (Mike from West Australia)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 01:10:36
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20000906011036.0b67aa06@iinet.net.au>

At 12:48 AM 6/9/2000 +0800, you wrote:
>> > Perhaps Matt, or someone similar, could clarify this?
>> 
>> I thought he was more referring to Telstra being annoyed at connections
>> being redialed every second, therefore unnecessarily tying up lines.
>
>There was (I don't know about now) rules about how quickly you could redial a
>modem if the called number was busy. The timing sucked pretty bad, something 
>like wait x seconds between the first 3 attempts, then wait 10x seconds
>between further attempts.

Yes and I believe its under the umbrella of the Australian COmmunications
Authority (ACA) - which has powers under the National Securities Act - or
some such equivalent federal statute.

This (in theory) means the ACA can enter your home at any time without
notice and pwoer to detain, seize goods etc. They have rather more power
then the State Police and the Australian Protective Service - formerly
the Federal Police...

Rgds

Mike



From ojw at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  5 17:56:05 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 17:56:05 +0800
Subject: [plug] Perth 19 & cloudy, Sydney 17 & fine, Hades -2 & snow.
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905124806.9441A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B4C335.FD5A50A9@iinet.net.au>

Hehehe, love the topic.

Tis very good news indeed. :-)

The Thought Assassin wrote:

> I think the URL provides its own commentary.
> http://www.trolltech.com/company/announce/gpl.html
> The dawn of the Free desktop is upon us.
>
> -Greg Mildenhall



From tony at cantech.net.au  Wed Sep  6 08:34:02 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:34:02 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Web Site
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905224723.16280Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009060829440.28106-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Matt Kemner wrote:

> A count would be good. (Tony?) Names of those who wish to be named will be
> up there too, linked into a bio page generated by the much-fanfared perl
> script that is yet to be written.

Ummm ... I'm moving the database from Access (don't say anything) to postgres.
ATM it's not accessible BUT from memory we have 33 (financial) members.

..... Perhaps if time permits the perl script (that asks questions) could
check the DB and update it as required.  that way people can change their own
mailing information.


WRT the website .... I like it although I agree with the proposition to remove
"font" tags .... they MAKE it very hard to read :(  Also adding a link to
"home" would be good.


Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep  6 09:00:58 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:00:58 +0800
Subject: [plug] website: .phtml, frames, Lynx, branding
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4F7CF.FBA11463@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B503DB.EB50D771@brooks.smileys.net> <39B51163.16770817@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B5974A.CB6D10B8@brooks.smileys.net>

Bret Busby wrote:
> Leon Brooks wrote:
> > Bret Busby wrote:
> > > A question, and, one or two suggestions, etc...

> > > 1. Question - what is phtml?

> > HTML with embedded PHP script.

> I thought that the extension .php , indicated that. Am I correct in
> that? If so, does that mean that they just indicate the same thing?

The PHP people have tried a few different extensions over the years, but seem to
be settling on .php; .phps is actually their most "standard" extension (the file
is displayed, syntax-highlit, as source).

I use and prefer .phtml because (like .shtml, .dhtml, .xhtml) it hints that the
file is basically HTML with extra doodads and a gewgaw or two, whereas
extensions like .php (.asp, .pl, .cgi, whatever...) hint that the file is a
program.

>>> 3. The header, across the top, and, the menu down the left side, of the
>>> web pages, - perhaps they could be better done as frames? That way, they
>>> would not need to be downloaded, and, redrawn, when one of the internal
>>> links on the website is followed.

>> It's a pain in the rectum for a framesless browser. Because Josh has used PHP it
>> should actually be possible to do both (plus maybe a text version) by, for
>> example, referencing the same URIs through different hostnames, and coding
>> accordingly. Maybe later.

> Using frames in HTML, usually has an alternative, for frameless
> browsers.

Frameless is a good place to start. You must concede that frameless HTML *will*
display in a frames-enabled browser.

>>> 5. Can you include some Perl or PHP, to display information, such as
>>> "Driven by Apache, version...", "This server powered by Linux
>>> version...", etc, to show that it is not running on MS products?

>> Try this:

>>     lynx -dump -head http://plug.linux.org.au/

> Not being a user of Lynx, what does that do?

Surely you at least have a working shell to hand?

> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U)

...or maybe not. Get a copy of PuTTY from here...

    http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/

...and use it to log in to your member's account at plug.linux.org.au. Then cut
the command from Navigator and paste it into PuTTY.

> I have just had a look around, and I am having trouble finding any
> website that includes these logo's at the bottom of the home page;
> "Powered by...Linux", or "Powered by Apache", or, anything like that.
> Even the local ISP's , or, the ones that I visited (iinet, dialix, wasp,
> amnet), do not appear to display that. I am surprised, the GNU, PHP,
> Perl, PostgreSQL, li.org, slug.org.au, opensource.org, gnome.org,
> kde.org, freshmeat.net, slashdot.org, debian.org, corel.com,
> caldera.com, websites do not display these logo's. I had believed that
> the purpose of these websites, was to promote Linux, and Apache, and
> related products. If they don't, that doesn't mean that PLUG shouldn't.
> The redhat site does say that it is powered by redhat linux, but does
> not mention a web server application.

Good point, Bret+, I'll have to start adding badges (or at least text credits)
wherever I can.

BTW, start using a Linux browser and more people will take you seriously on
issues like this.

>>> "Maling List" appears to show that all the members are males,
>>> in desperate need of females...

>> Speak for yourself. I have a surfeit of them. (-:

> Is that from that naked butt site...?

Dear me, I forgot to count those! O-:

>> --
>> "If I employed software developers, and they gave me something
>> like this, I'd shoot them." -- Abby Franquemont, on Windows

> Perhaps, the solution to Windows, is defenestration?

A strong solution of ammonia usually cleans your Windows off.

-- 
"I want an Internet.  Can I have one of those?" -- Spice Girl "Mel B.",
aka Scary Spice, pointing to a monitor during an AOL press conference


From kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au  Wed Sep  6 09:15:13 2000
From: kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au (Shackleton, Kevin)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:15:13 +0800 
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
Message-ID: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E304AC@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>

What's MSWord 8?  Is that '97 or 2k?  My '97 doesn't allow you to create
pdfs, and since it's Adobe licensed stuff I'd have thought that no Word
would, unless it's done through having Acrobat (not just the reader)
installed which might add the 'save as' facility to Word.  In that case it
looks that the Adobe add-on for Word doesn't produce 'true' pdf the same as
creating the document in Acrobat without Word.  Maybe then you should search
the Adobe site for a bug fix or tell them the problem.  (This of course
means getting the lecturer to take on the update).

K.

> ----------
> From: 	BillK[SMTP:billk at iinet.net.au]
> Reply To: 	plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Sent: 	Tuesday, 5 September 2000 21:08
> To: 	plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Subject: 	[plug] acrobat reader and printing
> 
> Anybody have any experiance of viewing acrobat files made by exporting
> from MSword 8.0 (as pdf's of course).  One of the lecturers at Murdoch
> has decided to distibute his notes in this form (on a unix based
> subject!) and I am unable to print them under linux using acrobat
> reader.  I am also unable to use another program as they are password
> protected which means kghostview etc cannot get a look in!  My thoughts
> are that MSword is producing a slightly nonstandard file that upsets the
> print drivers when printing under Linux.  Other pdf's print and seem
> OK.  There was also the bug where you have to run X in 16bit mode (in my
> case) to enable acrobat to even startup! - seems a bit of a dud of a
> program under linux!
> 
> And of course, they work flawlessly under acrobat reader on windows:(
> 
> BillK
> 


From chris at mnet.com.au  Wed Sep  6 09:06:22 2000
From: chris at mnet.com.au (Chris Darby)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:06:22 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
In-Reply-To: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E304AC@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <NEBBIHAPENJPFODJKFDHMEJCCBAA.chris@mnet.com.au>

MS word 8 is Word 97, ms word 9 is word 2000

-----Original Message-----
From: Shackleton, Kevin [mailto:kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au]
Sent: Wednesday, 6 September 2000 9:15 AM
To: plug at plug.linux.org.au
Subject: RE: [plug] acrobat reader and printing


What's MSWord 8?  Is that '97 or 2k?  My '97 doesn't allow you to create
pdfs, and since it's Adobe licensed stuff I'd have thought that no Word
would, unless it's done through having Acrobat (not just the reader)
installed which might add the 'save as' facility to Word.  In that case it
looks that the Adobe add-on for Word doesn't produce 'true' pdf the same as
creating the document in Acrobat without Word.  Maybe then you should search
the Adobe site for a bug fix or tell them the problem.  (This of course
means getting the lecturer to take on the update).

K.

> ----------
> From: 	BillK[SMTP:billk at iinet.net.au]
> Reply To: 	plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Sent: 	Tuesday, 5 September 2000 21:08
> To: 	plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Subject: 	[plug] acrobat reader and printing
>
> Anybody have any experiance of viewing acrobat files made by exporting
> from MSword 8.0 (as pdf's of course).  One of the lecturers at Murdoch
> has decided to distibute his notes in this form (on a unix based
> subject!) and I am unable to print them under linux using acrobat
> reader.  I am also unable to use another program as they are password
> protected which means kghostview etc cannot get a look in!  My thoughts
> are that MSword is producing a slightly nonstandard file that upsets the
> print drivers when printing under Linux.  Other pdf's print and seem
> OK.  There was also the bug where you have to run X in 16bit mode (in my
> case) to enable acrobat to even startup! - seems a bit of a dud of a
> program under linux!
>
> And of course, they work flawlessly under acrobat reader on windows:(
>
> BillK
>



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep  6 09:13:07 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:13:07 +0800
Subject: [plug] The Wittemburg Files!
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000905234312.16280e-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B59A23.EC3F8246@brooks.smileys.net>

Matt Kemner wrote:
> Any companies on this list care to donate copies of windoze we can chuck
> out cantech's windows at the installfest? :)

> Or maybe we ask the newcomers to bring their windows cds along and tell
> 'em it's an initiation ritual...

Two things we can do:

(1) Collate a list of 95 reasons to use Linux instead of Windows, and "nail" it
to the door.

(2) Bring along any old (or new) Microsoft floppies or CDs (too late, Garth?)
and have a ritual burning, if there are suitable bobbicles or fireplaces to
hand. We could also have a Windows 2000 launch if there are any model rocketry
enthusiasts to hand.

The similarities between Martin Luther's situation and today are just too
perfect to ignore: then we had "the" church, now we have "the" software; then
FUD ruled, now FUD rules; then if the Roman church got into trouble it leaned on
State laws for aid, now if Microsoft can't enforce its licencing it leans on
copyright laws for aid; then "the" church was fond of tinkering with standards,
now "the" software company likes to sit on standards boards and stir things up a
litte; then certain monarchs booted "the" church (or at least the Jesuits) out
regularly [I think four times from France, and at least once even from the
Vatican!] for persistently messing where they oughtn't, now the DoJ is doing the
same with "the" software company, then claims that there was a better way were
publicly howled down and secretly welcomed, ditto now...

(3) - yes, I know, I only said two - we can have a "freedom from enervation"
campaign, or at least an informative poster.

-- 
Your mouse has moved. Please restart Windows so this change
can take effect.


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep  6 09:15:15 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:15:15 +0800
Subject: [plug] 95 theses link
Message-ID: <39B59AA3.56C25A79@brooks.smileys.net>

If you want a list of 95 thesis points to help build a Linux version from, I
found one here:

    http://www.mit.edu:8001/afs/athena.mit.edu/activity/l/lem/www/95-theses.html

-- 
"Of course the Universe hates you. You're working to reduce chaos by
expending a lot of energy to do your job. Thus, you're contributing
to the eventual heat death of the universe, and it's just protecting
itself from you." -- John Batzel


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep  6 09:17:27 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:17:27 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web Site
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <20000906003816.B825@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>
Message-ID: <39B59B27.87E948AF@brooks.smileys.net>

Jason Nicholls wrote:
> Other than those things (which I'm sure will annoy you ;)) it's looking great.

It's refreshing to see a little professional pickiness from time to time. (-:

-- 
We're not surrounded, we're in a target-rich environment!


From sbaker at icg.net.au  Wed Sep  6 09:23:25 2000
From: sbaker at icg.net.au (Steve Baker)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:23:25 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
References: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E304AC@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <00b601c017a1$21d2a3c0$65140a0a@sg.mercatela.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shackleton, Kevin" <kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Wednesday, 6 September 2000 9:15
Subject: RE: [plug] acrobat reader and printing


> What's MSWord 8?  Is that '97 or 2k?  My '97 doesn't allow you to create
> pdfs, and since it's Adobe licensed stuff I'd have thought that no Word
> would, unless it's done through having Acrobat (not just the reader)
> installed which might add the 'save as' facility to Word.  In that case it
> looks that the Adobe add-on for Word doesn't produce 'true' pdf the same
as
> creating the document in Acrobat without Word.  Maybe then you should
search
> the Adobe site for a bug fix or tell them the problem.  (This of course
> means getting the lecturer to take on the update).
>
> K.
>

Last week I installed a port redirector and ghostscript (both free) under
Windows and now I have a pseudo-printer port which lets me 'print' a ms-word
document, and it saves the output as a pdf.  There are some limitations -
some documents will not generate pdf's (haven't found out why yet) but there
are a number of commercial solutions which probably won't have the same
problems.

I'm working at an all-windows shop at the moment, so I don't can't tell you
if there are any problems under the Linux acrobat reader.

Regards,
Steve
--
Steve Baker
Principal Associate

mercatela
Tel: +65 324 9727
Fax: +65 324 5116

www.mercatela.com



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep  6 09:21:37 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:21:37 +0800
Subject: [plug] database
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009060829440.28106-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B59C21.916E36F2@brooks.smileys.net>

"Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima" wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Matt Kemner wrote:
>> A count would be good. (Tony?) Names of those who wish to be named will be
>> up there too, linked into a bio page generated by the much-fanfared perl
>> script that is yet to be written.

A reflex action for Matt, no?

> Ummm ... I'm moving the database from Access (don't say anything)

<mmmmf!>

> to postgres.
> ATM it's not accessible BUT from memory we have 33 (financial) members.

Uh, how hard is this? If Access will write anything like ASCII, it should be a
two-minute job.

-- 
"I worry that the person who thought up Muzak
 may be thinking up something else." -- Lily Tomlin


From colin at durbanet.co.za  Wed Sep  6 09:42:42 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:42:42 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web Site
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <20000906003816.B825@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>
Message-ID: <39B5A112.825C95C6@durbanet.co.za>

Jason Nicholls wrote:
>   Also, body text should have serifs for readability. ie: leave as default
>   font or use a serif style.

While this is generally accepted to be true for print (there are
dissenters even on that point), I think you'll find it doesn't apply on
monitors at current resolutions - the jaggies and stroke-width issues
mean that sans-serif is often easier to read on screen. When monitors
get up to 200-300 dpi, print rules will apply again.

This study, for example, found no significant difference between reading
speeds with serif vs sans-serif on computer screens:
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~geske/scholarship.html

Colin


From christian at amnet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 10:03:38 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:03:38 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
In-Reply-To: <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au>; from billk@iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 05, 2000 at 09:10:00PM +0800
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000906100338.F1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Tue, Sep 05, 2000 at 09:10:00PM +0800, BillK wrote:
> Anybody have any experiance of viewing acrobat files made by exporting
> from MSword 8.0 (as pdf's of course).  One of the lecturers at Murdoch
> has decided to distibute his notes in this form (on a unix based
> subject!) and I am unable to print them under linux using acrobat
> reader.  I am also unable to use another program as they are password
> protected which means kghostview etc cannot get a look in!  My thoughts
> are that MSword is producing a slightly nonstandard file that upsets the
> print drivers when printing under Linux.  Other pdf's print and seem
> OK.  There was also the bug where you have to run X in 16bit mode (in my
> case) to enable acrobat to even startup! - seems a bit of a dud of a
> program under linux!
> And of course, they work flawlessly under acrobat reader on windows:(

On my systems I've found that the Acrobat reader from Adobe virtually
*never* works correctly.  It either stuffs up all the colours or just
segfaults and dies.  My advice is to either use gv or xpdf.  In my
experience gv works fine with short PDF files (although the translation
process occurs per-page and is obviously slower than displaying PS; as a
tip, don't hit print and then close the window straight away until the
little banner at the top tells you it's finished processing or your
print job will get totally botched and your Postscript printer may go
crazy -- happens with mine).  For longer PDF files (approx. > 25 pages)
I recommend using xpdf or the utilities that come with it.  I've had
problems where gv totally botches the printing for these longer
documents (no idea why).  As for the choice of PDF for a unit on Unix,
it sounds like a good idea to me.  Most Windows lusers wouldn't have the
faintest clue what to do with Postscript and PDF is basically portable
enough to work on both platforms (given the right tools!).

Regards,

Christian.


From alpha at indigo.net.au  Wed Sep  6 10:08:21 2000
From: alpha at indigo.net.au (Joshua Pierre)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:08:21 +0800
Subject: [plug] pdf editor/creator
Message-ID: <001801c017a7$54be2a60$2da63dca@ben>

List,

At work now so forgive the lookout use =)

Anyway, is there a Linux pdf creator at all?

Or is ps2pdf the closest thing?

Cheers,

Joshua Pierre
Indigo Networks
Technical Support
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From christian at amnet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 10:13:04 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:13:04 +0800
Subject: [plug] pdf editor/creator
In-Reply-To: <001801c017a7$54be2a60$2da63dca@ben>; from alpha@indigo.net.au on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 10:08:21AM +0800
References: <001801c017a7$54be2a60$2da63dca@ben>
Message-ID: <20000906101304.G1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 10:08:21AM +0800, Joshua Pierre wrote:
> List,
> 
> At work now so forgive the lookout use =)
> 
> Anyway, is there a Linux pdf creator at all?
> 
> Or is ps2pdf the closest thing?

Well, ps2pdf is a PDF creator -- it's exactly what you ask for.  There
are also numerous programs to interconvert between PDF, PS and other
formats you're likely to run up against so there's probably plenty of
options depending on what you want to do.


From billk at iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 10:41:18 2000
From: billk at iinet.net.au (billk at iinet.net.au)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:41:18 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
Message-ID: <200009060241.KAA25532@localhost.localdomain>

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From christian at amnet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 10:59:14 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:59:14 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
In-Reply-To: <200009060241.KAA25532@localhost.localdomain>; from billk@iinet.net.au on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 10:41:18AM +0800
References: <200009060241.KAA25532@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20000906105914.H1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 10:41:18AM +0800, billk at iinet.net.au wrote:
> Hi Christian,
> 	X has a bug when running in 24bit mode which acrobat hits on which can
> give those symptoms.  The advice is to run in 16 or 32 bit mode - in my
> case 32 bits is mapped to 24bits by the driver, leaving me with yukky 16bit
> if I want to use acrobat!  I dont believe any of the apps suggested  can
> handle password protected pdf's (which can give different and odd symptoms
> when confronted by one, rarely even sayings its protected, often gives a
> black page and the app disappears if any manipulation is attempted.)  The
> security provisions within acrobat (and all are placed on these files by
> the author) prevent saving in a different format, cut/paste/copy etc - a
> dead loss in my opinion for distributing this type of content!

That explains my problem because my video card won't run in 32-bit (not
supported by the hardware) and 16-bit (just stuffs up, NFI why) so I'm
stuck with 24-bit.

As for password-protected PDFs, is Hong (I'm assuming it is Hong...)
distributing the PDFs in that form?  (It really doesn't make sense at
all.)  Either way, xpdf does support this.  Under Debian you need the
xpdf-i package so I assume there's something similar under Red Hat. Note
that you may have to get it from a non-US mirror/repository since it
contains some cryptographic code.

Regards,

Christian.


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 11:08:56 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:08:56 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au> <20000906100338.F1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B5B548.165BF0B8@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Christian wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Sep 05, 2000 at 09:10:00PM +0800, BillK wrote:
> > Anybody have any experiance of viewing acrobat files made by exporting
> > from MSword 8.0 (as pdf's of course).  One of the lecturers at Murdoch
> > has decided to distibute his notes in this form (on a unix based
> > subject!) and I am unable to print them under linux using acrobat
> > reader.  I am also unable to use another program as they are password
> > protected which means kghostview etc cannot get a look in!  My thoughts
> > are that MSword is producing a slightly nonstandard file that upsets the
> > print drivers when printing under Linux.  Other pdf's print and seem
> > OK.  There was also the bug where you have to run X in 16bit mode (in my
> > case) to enable acrobat to even startup! - seems a bit of a dud of a
> > program under linux!
> > And of course, they work flawlessly under acrobat reader on windows:(
> 
> On my systems I've found that the Acrobat reader from Adobe virtually
> *never* works correctly.  It either stuffs up all the colours or just
> segfaults and dies.  My advice is to either use gv or xpdf.  In my
> experience gv works fine with short PDF files (although the translation
> process occurs per-page and is obviously slower than displaying PS; as a
> tip, don't hit print and then close the window straight away until the
> little banner at the top tells you it's finished processing or your
> print job will get totally botched and your Postscript printer may go
> crazy -- happens with mine).  For longer PDF files (approx. > 25 pages)
> I recommend using xpdf or the utilities that come with it.  I've had
> problems where gv totally botches the printing for these longer
> documents (no idea why).  As for the choice of PDF for a unit on Unix,
> it sounds like a good idea to me.  Most Windows lusers wouldn't have the
> faintest clue what to do with Postscript and PDF is basically portable
> enough to work on both platforms (given the right tools!).
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Christian.

Without being an expert (expert = a drip under pressure) on the subject,
in my opinion, the problem is that of an academic using an application
that produces non-standard output, apparently with the desired (by the
product manufacturer) effect that the output product can only be
accessed efectively, by another instance of the application that
produced the malformed output in the first instance.

Academics appear to be too involved in using such restrictive,
proprietary oriented applications, rather than teaching and practising
portability.

It's just another symptom of the poor standards of education.

I agree, in principle, with Christian; PDF files are platform
independent (in theory), and their use should be expanded. However, the
generation of PDF files should be done either by using the Acrobat
application for producing them (which the university should be able to
afford), or, some other application, that is guaranteed to produce
standard PDF files, without any proprietary muck in them, that can be
accessed and read, by any reasonable PDF file viewer.

The other problem with it, is the possessive, proprietary nature of the
files, with the password access, which, in effect, goes against the
purpose of universities; the unrestricted dissemination and sharing of
knowledge. Given that, under the Intellectual property regulations of
the university, all materials produced by academics at the university,
belong to the university, it may be a policy of the university, that
needs changing, to free up the disssemination of knowledge...

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From christian at amnet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 11:18:44 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:18:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
In-Reply-To: <39B5B548.165BF0B8@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 11:08:56AM +0800
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au> <20000906100338.F1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5B548.165BF0B8@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000906111844.I1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 11:08:56AM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
 
> Without being an expert (expert = a drip under pressure) on the subject,
> in my opinion, the problem is that of an academic using an application
> that produces non-standard output, apparently with the desired (by the
> product manufacturer) effect that the output product can only be
> accessed efectively, by another instance of the application that
> produced the malformed output in the first instance.

In this case PDF is very much a standard, if only a defacto one.  The
only better format I can think of is Postscript (gzip'd of course!) but,
like I said, Windows people will doubtless be baffled by this so PDF is
an excellent alternative.

> Academics appear to be too involved in using such restrictive,
> proprietary oriented applications, rather than teaching and practising
> portability.

Which proprietary applications?  In the past most lecture notes have
been distributed as Word documents -- I'd say PDF is certainly a step in
the right direction!  I'm pretty sure the specifications for PDF have
been openly published (although perhaps someone can correct me on this).

> It's just another symptom of the poor standards of education.

*laugh*

> I agree, in principle, with Christian; PDF files are platform
> independent (in theory), and their use should be expanded. However, the
> generation of PDF files should be done either by using the Acrobat
> application for producing them (which the university should be able to
> afford), or, some other application, that is guaranteed to produce
> standard PDF files, without any proprietary muck in them, that can be
> accessed and read, by any reasonable PDF file viewer.

Ummm... they're PDF files so they should work under any (functioning)
PDF viewer.  Maybe I've gotten the wrong end of the stick here but I
thought the problem Bill was having was not that the PDF files were in
some way corrupted by proprietary formatting but rather that Acrobat
Reader under Linux wasn't working properly (which it doesn't for me
either, apparently being related to the colour depth in use).  If I'm on
the right track here then what you've just said doesn't make any sense.

> The other problem with it, is the possessive, proprietary nature of the
> files, with the password access, which, in effect, goes against the
> purpose of universities; the unrestricted dissemination and sharing of
> knowledge. Given that, under the Intellectual property regulations of
> the university, all materials produced by academics at the university,
> belong to the university, it may be a policy of the university, that
> needs changing, to free up the disssemination of knowledge...

I just think protecting it with a password is rather silly.  It doesn't
really protect the work in any way since a) it can still be freely
redistributed and b) the password protection must be very weak indeed
since there is no secure way of controlling content on another machine.
Either way, xpdf supports this so it's not an issue.

Regards,

Christian.


From jbreen at wn.com.au  Wed Sep  6 11:21:18 2000
From: jbreen at wn.com.au (John Breen)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:21:18 +0800
Subject: [plug] Linux support for schools
Message-ID: <4120009363211831@wn.com.au>

>
>BTW, what, in Oz, is considered a 'reasonable holdoff'?  A minute?  
>Or more?
>I vaguely recall something in a modem manual suggesting it was 
>naughty to
>slam calls through end-to-end.

IIRC, the actual text in modem manuals (at least Austel-approved
modem manuals) is something to the effect that your first retry
should be held off for 60 seconds, then later ones for three minutes,
with a maximum of 3 retries.  Plus some other stuff about it being
naughty to do otherwise, and they might take away your modem...

|
| John Breen
|
| jbreen at wn.com.au
| john at fairport.com.au
|
| "Do not worry, Arthur Dent.  Be afraid.  Be VERY afraid."
| Agrajag, "Life, the Universe and Everything"
|



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 11:23:46 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:23:46 +0800
Subject: [plug] website: .phtml, frames, Lynx, branding
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4F7CF.FBA11463@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B503DB.EB50D771@brooks.smileys.net> <39B51163.16770817@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B5974A.CB6D10B8@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39B5B8C2.8442F536@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Leon Brooks wrote:
> 

<snip>

> 
> BTW, start using a Linux browser and more people will take you seriously on
> issues like this.
> 

I would, but for a couple of reasons; my RH Linux 5.2 partion has a few
hundred MB of data that I need to relocate, so that I can upgrade, and
get it all working right again, and, I don't have anywhere else to put
it (or, the time to filter it); also, I am yet to find Linux
applications, and drivers, that work with a GDI printer.

Lynx is not the only Linux browser, you know; Star Office, Netscape,
etc, are also browsers, that work on Linux. And, they show the pikkies.
How else do we get to see pikkies on the Internet, of that man that
looks like he has just been exhumed, with the white hair and glasses,
and the deathly pale blue eyes, better known as the minister for
preventing communication?

<snip>

> --
> "I want an Internet.  Can I have one of those?" -- Spice Girl "Mel B.",
> aka Scary Spice, pointing to a monitor during an AOL press conference

Scary, isn't it?

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 11:35:39 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:35:39 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au> <20000906100338.F1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5B548.165BF0B8@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906111844.I1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B5BB8B.3484B66@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Christian wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 11:08:56AM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > Without being an expert (expert = a drip under pressure) on the subject,
> > in my opinion, the problem is that of an academic using an application
> > that produces non-standard output, apparently with the desired (by the
> > product manufacturer) effect that the output product can only be
> > accessed efectively, by another instance of the application that
> > produced the malformed output in the first instance.
> 
> In this case PDF is very much a standard, if only a defacto one.  The
> only better format I can think of is Postscript (gzip'd of course!) but,
> like I said, Windows people will doubtless be baffled by this so PDF is
> an excellent alternative.
> 
> > Academics appear to be too involved in using such restrictive,
> > proprietary oriented applications, rather than teaching and practising
> > portability.
> 
> Which proprietary applications?  In the past most lecture notes have
> been distributed as Word documents -- I'd say PDF is certainly a step in
> the right direction!  I'm pretty sure the specifications for PDF have
> been openly published (although perhaps someone can correct me on this).
> 

It is my understanding, for example, that documents saved as web pages,
or, in HTML format, by that office suite (Office 2000) and by their
product Backpage 2000, or whatever it is named, can only be viewed
properly by IE5 or later, due to MS proprietary stuff included. If it
happens with saving files from the suite like that, then, it is logical
to also assume that files saved as PDF files from that suite, could be
similarly tainted. Especially when problems arise, in trying to open
those files, with non-MS applications. MS appears to tend to have this
attitude that output from its applications, should not be able to be
accessed fully, apart from the latest versions of its own applications.

Perhaps, the easiest solution, is just to save any documents produced by
that suite, as .txt files. Then they are truly, universally accessible.
But, an academic is not likely to be so accommodating.

> > It's just another symptom of the poor standards of education.
> 
> *laugh*
> 
> > I agree, in principle, with Christian; PDF files are platform
> > independent (in theory), and their use should be expanded. However, the
> > generation of PDF files should be done either by using the Acrobat
> > application for producing them (which the university should be able to
> > afford), or, some other application, that is guaranteed to produce
> > standard PDF files, without any proprietary muck in them, that can be
> > accessed and read, by any reasonable PDF file viewer.
> 
> Ummm... they're PDF files so they should work under any (functioning)
> PDF viewer.  Maybe I've gotten the wrong end of the stick here but I
> thought the problem Bill was having was not that the PDF files were in
> some way corrupted by proprietary formatting but rather that Acrobat
> Reader under Linux wasn't working properly (which it doesn't for me
> either, apparently being related to the colour depth in use).  If I'm on
> the right track here then what you've just said doesn't make any sense.
> 
> > The other problem with it, is the possessive, proprietary nature of the
> > files, with the password access, which, in effect, goes against the
> > purpose of universities; the unrestricted dissemination and sharing of
> > knowledge. Given that, under the Intellectual property regulations of
> > the university, all materials produced by academics at the university,
> > belong to the university, it may be a policy of the university, that
> > needs changing, to free up the disssemination of knowledge...
> 
> I just think protecting it with a password is rather silly.  It doesn't
> really protect the work in any way since a) it can still be freely
> redistributed and b) the password protection must be very weak indeed
> since there is no secure way of controlling content on another machine.
> Either way, xpdf supports this so it's not an issue.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Christian.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From tony at cantech.net.au  Wed Sep  6 11:42:09 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:42:09 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] database
In-Reply-To: <39B59C21.916E36F2@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009061137300.28106-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:

> <mmmmf!>

It was available and I had someone who'd do the work for me.  when I didn't
have time.   It was a good solution at the time.  It was always a stop-gap
measuere ... Now I can get rid of it :)

> > to postgres.
> > ATM it's not accessible BUT from memory we have 33 (financial) members.
> 
> Uh, how hard is this? If Access will write anything like ASCII, it should be a
> two-minute job.

Yeah export each table a CSV, use the appropriate CREATE TABLE () and INSERT
INTO statements.  then I have psql access to the data.   The slow down is the
web/console interface that doen't mean I have to type long SQL statements.

It will be ready for the installfest.   Thats the deadline I've given myself.

Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From christian at amnet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 11:46:55 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:46:55 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
In-Reply-To: <39B5BB8B.3484B66@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 11:35:39AM +0800
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au> <20000906100338.F1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5B548.165BF0B8@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906111844.I1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5BB8B.3484B66@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000906114655.J1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 11:35:39AM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> > Which proprietary applications?  In the past most lecture notes have
> > been distributed as Word documents -- I'd say PDF is certainly a step in
> > the right direction!  I'm pretty sure the specifications for PDF have
> > been openly published (although perhaps someone can correct me on this).
> > 
> It is my understanding, for example, that documents saved as web pages,
> or, in HTML format, by that office suite (Office 2000) and by their
> product Backpage 2000, or whatever it is named, can only be viewed
> properly by IE5 or later, due to MS proprietary stuff included. If it
> happens with saving files from the suite like that, then, it is logical
> to also assume that files saved as PDF files from that suite, could be
> similarly tainted. Especially when problems arise, in trying to open
> those files, with non-MS applications. MS appears to tend to have this
> attitude that output from its applications, should not be able to be
> accessed fully, apart from the latest versions of its own applications.

I'm sure the HTML would still display in Netscape etc., it just might
not include some special proprietary extensions.  If Microsoft included
proprietary extensions to PDF in their export filter then no one would
be able to read these files!  Bill has already said that the Acrobat
Reader under Windows can read the files therefore it would seem that the
PDFs generated are not proprietary extensions.

> Perhaps, the easiest solution, is just to save any documents produced by
> that suite, as .txt files. Then they are truly, universally accessible.
> But, an academic is not likely to be so accommodating.

And if an academic did this then you would find some new reason to
complain bitterly ("it looks so ugly...", "there are no pictures...",
"it's discriminating to people who use non-ASCII-based languages", "it
doesn't display on my EBCDIC-only terminal", etc.).  It seems to me that
PDF and (standard) HTML are the best formats for such distribution: HTML
if you want the document to be reformatted as appropriate and PDF if you
want the formatting and layouts to stay the same no matter what platform
it is displayed on.  In this case PDF seems like an good solution
(although the password protection is pointless) and nothing you've said
has convinced me otherwise.

< 37 lines snipped > 

Bret, why on earth did you include 37 lines of crap that you didn't
reply to and then append your name at the end?  If part of the email is
not relevant to your reply, remove it and in doing so take up less
memory, less disk space, less bandwidth PLUS make your email easier to
read.


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Wed Sep  6 11:49:32 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:49:32 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] database
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009061137300.28106-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000906114715.16280g-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima wrote:

> Yeah export each table a CSV, use the appropriate CREATE TABLE () and INSERT
> INTO statements.  then I have psql access to the data.   The slow down is the
> web/console interface that doen't mean I have to type long SQL statements.

FYI pgsql is installed on spark (needed for TWIG)

 - Matt



From leon at lostrealm.com  Wed Sep  6 11:55:33 2000
From: leon at lostrealm.com (Leon Blackwell)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:55:33 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
In-Reply-To: <20000906114655.J1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>; from Christian on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 11:46:55AM +0800
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au> <20000906100338.F1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5B548.165BF0B8@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906111844.I1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5BB8B.3484B66@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906114655.J1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000906115531.B692@portal.lostrealm.com>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 11:46:55AM +0800, Christian wrote:
> In this case PDF seems like an good solution
> (although the password protection is pointless)

I'm not sure about Murdoch or other Perth universities, but here
at Curtin we are not allowed to release course material publicaly.
(no, I don't understand it either... it's not like anyone would
want to steal it and use it for themselves  :)

I'm going to assume that that would be the reason for password
protecting the PDF -- one more level of security.  We already
password protect our unit webpages
( http://www.computing.edu.au/units/ ) to the outside world.  I
expect it won't be long before we're told to password protect our
PDFs and other files too.



-- 
 +----------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Leon Blackwell                       mailto:leon at lostrealm.com |
 | http://www.lostrealm.com/                         ICQ - 424725 |
 +----------------------------------------------------------------+


From christian at amnet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 11:59:05 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:59:05 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
In-Reply-To: <20000906115531.B692@portal.lostrealm.com>; from leon@lostrealm.com on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 11:55:33AM +0800
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au> <20000906100338.F1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5B548.165BF0B8@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906111844.I1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5BB8B.3484B66@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906114655.J1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <20000906115531.B692@portal.lostrealm.com>
Message-ID: <20000906115905.K1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 11:55:33AM +0800, Leon Blackwell wrote:
 
> I'm not sure about Murdoch or other Perth universities, but here
> at Curtin we are not allowed to release course material publicaly.
> (no, I don't understand it either... it's not like anyone would
> want to steal it and use it for themselves  :)
> I'm going to assume that that would be the reason for password
> protecting the PDF -- one more level of security.  We already
> password protect our unit webpages
> ( http://www.computing.edu.au/units/ ) to the outside world.  I
> expect it won't be long before we're told to password protect our
> PDFs and other files too.

I don't think there is any such restriction at Murdoch, certainly all
materials are publicly available.  Either way, I believe that password
protecting a PDF protects you from *modifying* it, not from actually
viewing it.


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 11:50:26 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:50:26 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au> <20000906100338.F1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5B548.165BF0B8@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906111844.I1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5BB8B.3484B66@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B5BF02.A7B64E8C@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> Christian wrote:
> >
<snip>
> 
> > > It's just another symptom of the poor standards of education.
> >
> > *laugh*
> >

Sorry; I thought that portability is (or, was) a serious component of
education in the area of computing education. However, I notice that
portability is not considered, or, taught, to any significant extent.

<snip>

> > > The other problem with it, is the possessive, proprietary nature of the
> > > files, with the password access, which, in effect, goes against the
> > > purpose of universities; the unrestricted dissemination and sharing of
> > > knowledge. Given that, under the Intellectual property regulations of
> > > the university, all materials produced by academics at the university,
> > > belong to the university, it may be a policy of the university, that
> > > needs changing, to free up the disssemination of knowledge...
> >
> > I just think protecting it with a password is rather silly.  It doesn't
> > really protect the work in any way since a) it can still be freely
> > redistributed and b) the password protection must be very weak indeed
> > since there is no secure way of controlling content on another machine.
> > Either way, xpdf supports this so it's not an issue.
> >

In thinking about this further, if the academic involved, insists on
restricting access to the files, via the use of passwords, the academic
can implement that, as has been done in other units, by using password
logins to restrict access to the parent directory for the unit (or,
other directory that is applicable), so not affecting the individual
files.

Surely, the academic involved, is aware of that?

Also, given the multi-platform versions that are available, if the
academic wanted to provide formatted materials, surely, the academic
could have used Star Office, which is free, and the CD's have at least
three platform-dependent versions, so that students can choose which
platform version they install and use, and, should be able to achieve
the same results, regardless of OS platform.

That, also, increases portability, to some extent, and, would retain any
formatting.


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 12:12:48 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:12:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au> <20000906100338.F1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5B548.165BF0B8@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906111844.I1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5BB8B.3484B66@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906114655.J1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <20000906115531.B692@portal.lostrealm.com> <20000906115905.K1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B5C440.965B6B53@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Christian wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 11:55:33AM +0800, Leon Blackwell wrote:
> 
> > I'm not sure about Murdoch or other Perth universities, but here
> > at Curtin we are not allowed to release course material publicaly.
> > (no, I don't understand it either... it's not like anyone would
> > want to steal it and use it for themselves  :)
> > I'm going to assume that that would be the reason for password
> > protecting the PDF -- one more level of security.  We already
> > password protect our unit webpages
> > ( http://www.computing.edu.au/units/ ) to the outside world.  I
> > expect it won't be long before we're told to password protect our
> > PDFs and other files too.
> 
> I don't think there is any such restriction at Murdoch, certainly all
> materials are publicly available.  Either way, I believe that password
> protecting a PDF protects you from *modifying* it, not from actually
> viewing it.


Slight correction, Christian - it depends on the academic, as to whether
the materials are publicly available. Examples include B108, which used
to require logging in, B211 lecture notes, which require logging in to
read the notes, and, others exist, and have existed, particulary within
the teaching IT department (as opposed to the IT department that
manitains the network, etc).

My understanding, was that the reason for restricting access to unit
materials, was to prevent people who were not enrolled in particular
units, from accessing the materials.

But, I could be wrong.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From colin at durbanet.co.za  Wed Sep  6 12:12:34 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:12:34 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au> <20000906100338.F1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5B548.165BF0B8@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906111844.I1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5BB8B.3484B66@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906114655.J1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <20000906115531.B692@portal.lostrealm.com>
Message-ID: <39B5C432.F37816D2@durbanet.co.za>

Leon Blackwell wrote:
> I'm not sure about Murdoch or other Perth universities, but here
> at Curtin we are not allowed to release course material publicaly.
> (no, I don't understand it either... it's not like anyone would
> want to steal it and use it for themselves  :)

Funny you should mention that. A certain person of my acquaintance
recently saw a unit description / publicity blurb pinned up at UWA. It
consisted, almost verbatim and without acknowledgement, of part a piece
this acquaintance (who lectures at Curtin) had written - a piece which,
when distributed, had been clearly marked as not for general
distribution. Options for response to this are being considered.

Of course, we could get into a long discussion about whether this sort
of writing, like GPL'd software, should be open-licensed. Current
conventions (small 'c') in the use and abuse of copyright on this sort
of material make it a pretty bold thing to do, though - and lecturers'
hands are often tied by the sort of institutional restrictions you
mention.

Colin


From christian at amnet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 12:16:36 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:16:36 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
In-Reply-To: <39B5C440.965B6B53@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 12:12:48PM +0800
References: <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au> <20000906100338.F1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5B548.165BF0B8@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906111844.I1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5BB8B.3484B66@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906114655.J1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <20000906115531.B692@portal.lostrealm.com> <20000906115905.K1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5C440.965B6B53@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000906121636.L1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 12:12:48PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
 
> My understanding, was that the reason for restricting access to unit
> materials, was to prevent people who were not enrolled in particular
> units, from accessing the materials.
> But, I could be wrong.

You are.  Anyone can walk in off the street and come to a Murdoch
lecture.  As such, restricting access to lecture notes seems more than a
little pointless.


From christian at amnet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 12:17:24 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:17:24 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
In-Reply-To: <39B5C432.F37816D2@durbanet.co.za>; from colin@durbanet.co.za on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 12:12:34PM +0800
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au> <20000906100338.F1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5B548.165BF0B8@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906111844.I1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5BB8B.3484B66@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906114655.J1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <20000906115531.B692@portal.lostrealm.com> <39B5C432.F37816D2@durbanet.co.za>
Message-ID: <20000906121724.M1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 12:12:34PM +0800, Colin Muller wrote:
 
> Of course, we could get into a long discussion about whether this sort
> of writing, like GPL'd software, should be open-licensed. Current
> conventions (small 'c') in the use and abuse of copyright on this sort
> of material make it a pretty bold thing to do, though - and lecturers'
> hands are often tied by the sort of institutional restrictions you
> mention.

Even if it were freely made available for reproduction and
redistribution, you would still have to acknowledge authorship...


From steveg at calm.wa.gov.au  Wed Sep  6 12:20:25 2000
From: steveg at calm.wa.gov.au (Steve Grasso)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:20:25 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
In-Reply-To: <20000906115905.K1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <20000906115531.B692@portal.lostrealm.com> <20000906115905.K1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00090612235601.09922@pluto.calm.wa.gov.au>

On Wed, 06 Sep 2000, Christian wrote:
[snip]
> Either way, I believe that password
> protecting a PDF protects you from *modifying* it, not from actually
> viewing it.

One of the features of Acrobat Distiller 4, is that an author may lock
PDF files which may only be unlocked by provision of a registration
key/password/number etc. I guess this is to facilitate electronic distribution
of salable publications.

Regards,
Steve


From christian at amnet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 12:19:07 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:19:07 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
In-Reply-To: <39B5BF02.A7B64E8C@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 11:50:26AM +0800
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au> <20000906100338.F1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5B548.165BF0B8@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906111844.I1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5BB8B.3484B66@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B5BF02.A7B64E8C@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000906121907.N1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 11:50:26AM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
 
> Sorry; I thought that portability is (or, was) a serious component of
> education in the area of computing education. However, I notice that
> portability is not considered, or, taught, to any significant extent.

It is portable.  Portable Document Format.  PDF.

 


From myk at golden.wattle.id.au  Wed Sep  6 12:20:50 2000
From: myk at golden.wattle.id.au (Mike Holland)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:20:50 +0800 (WST)
Subject: netscape fonts, was Re: [plug] Web Site
In-Reply-To: <20000906003816.B825@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009061216330.1552-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>

On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Jason Nicholls wrote:

>   Also, body text should have serifs for readability. ie: leave as default
>   font or use a serif style.

On nestcape I see serifs - a tiny Times font. So I check my preferences,
and enable "use document-specified fonts". But now I get a courier font!
(ie fixed-width)

The page looks much better under IE5. Is my system badly configured, or do
other netscape/linux boxes also do this?

-- 
Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
                          --==--



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep  6 12:23:08 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:23:08 +0800
Subject: [plug] 30 theses
Message-ID: <39B5C6AC.E68CFCFF@brooks.smileys.net>

[lunch break time: please read this and add theses. Each thesis should be short
(prefereably 2 lines or less) and to the point, but (and you know who you are)
not violent or needlessly offensive. I plan to collate all useful suggestions
and get them posted somewhere well-read on the Internet]

Preamble
~~~~~~~~

One might think that during the past 483 years, some civil progress would have
been made. However, it seems that in certain areas, specifically computing,
"there is nothing new under the sun". Today we are faced with a monopolistic
situation not unlike the one faced by Martin Luther when he nailed his 95 theses
to the door of the Wittemburg cathedral.

"The only thing one learns from history is that nobody learns anything from
history", claimed Hegel, and these new theses are yet another effort to prove
him wrong. It is our fond hope that you will take these ideas to heart, and
change the way you think about computers, perhaps even change the decisions you
make about buying and specifying computers.

While the modern equivalent of this action would be to "nail" our 95 theses to
Microsoft's home page, we feel that this would not even be as well received as
Martin's action was in his day, so we are publishing these theses here.

1. The opportunity for greatest freedom of choice is key to the greatest common
good.

2. Freedom of choice naturally includes the freedom to avoid choice.

3. The safest and simplest way to guarantee freedom of choice is to leave as
many choices open as possible in each step of the software food chain, from
developers through distributors to end users.

4. The only certain method of pushing control out towards each end user is to
make complete and useable source code readily available to everyone.

5. Long feedback chains mean late and often erroneous changes to software.

6. The shortest possible feedback chain, zero hops, results when the end user
can also be the developer, and vice versa.

7. Tailored gear can be made to fit better than sweatshop production-line gear.

8. Practice produces a more well-rounded product than theory.

9. Most people work best when they're working for themselves.

10. Most people take better care of something that they own. We need to hear the
lesson in "Don't worry, it's a rental."

11. Many eyeballs (and minds) make light work of debugging.

12. The only certain way to provide ownership, short feedback chains, practical
coding, self-powered and empowered workers and a broad skill base is to make
development tools readily available to the end user.

13. An example can be worth a thousand words of theory.

14. Monocultures are unhealthy, and in the long term not viable (in a natural
setting, they will die out: think about the Irish potato famine or the effects
of Texan broadacre monocropping on Russian farmland).

15. Polycultures are healthy and beneficial, even for nearby or connected
monocultures. The most robust situations in nature are extremely complex.

16. The only certain way to provide a broad spectrum of useful examples is to
establish a framework within which source code access is a right and source code
provision is an honour.

17. Entities with a larger number of centres of control are more difficult to
destroy than more "concentrated" structures.

18. Entities with a larger number of centres of control are more difficult to
subvert than more "homogeneous" structures.

19. Any significant success in a contested field will result in attempts to
subvert or destroy the successful entity from limited numbers of hostile
competitors.

20. Distribution (even abandonment) of control makes destruction or subversion
of an entity by hostile competitors difficult more quickly than it makes
assistance or empowerment of the entity by sympathisers difficult.

21. Hostile competitors must also have a right to life, however "the liberty of
the corporation must be thus far limited: it must not make a nuisance of itself
to other entities."

22. There are many "right ways" of acheiving an end; where resources permit,
many should be tried.

23. Reliability is generally more important for a user than snazzy features.

24. Reliability is generally more important for a user than the product being on
supermarket shelves (or FTP servers) for Christmas.

25. Wide document availability is generally more important that the power to
double-underscore, colour or "fontasize" about your text.

26. Keeping your passwords, credit card numbers and disk structure safe is
generally more important than being able to fly a little man around on somebody
else's screen on the fiery rocket blast from his backside, accompanied by a
jolly tune.

27. Having a public encryption system that works is better than having a private
one with your name on it and enormous security holes.

28. "Write once, run anywhere" is more safely and politely achieved with Python,
TCL or PERL than with a black-box ActiveX binary or VBS.

29. Reliability, interoperability and security are generally better achived by
bowing to a standards committee than by bullying one.

30. Paying a local computer guru $500 to set your machine up "just so" feels a
lot better than paying a remote and faceless software corporation $500 just for
a licence to use it.

31. [add more theses here: we want 95 of them in the end]

-- 
"I think that's how Chicago got started. A bunch of people in New York
said, 'Gee, I'm enjoying the crime and the poverty, but it just isn't
cold enough. Let's go west.'" -- Richard Jeni


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep  6 12:35:43 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:35:43 +0800
Subject: [plug] GDI printer
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4F7CF.FBA11463@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B503DB.EB50D771@brooks.smileys.net> <39B51163.16770817@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B5974A.CB6D10B8@brooks.smileys.net> <39B5B8C2.8442F536@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B5C99F.73454EEA@brooks.smileys.net>

Bret Busby wrote:
> I am yet to find Linux
> applications, and drivers, that work with a GDI printer.

Start here:
http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-09-03-001-04-OS-HW-HL

BTW, GDI printers suck. They're cheap in all possible ways and blow up easily.

> Lynx is not the only Linux browser, you know;

<sarcasm weight=heavy>Can you imagine my surprise when I discovered
this?</sarcasm>

Lynx does, however, show you the headers if you ask it to. And many other things
that *none* of the graphical browsers will do for you.

-- 
"Accurately delivered, a cream pie is an uncannily precise barometer
 of human nature." -- Noel Godin, pie-throwing anarchist


From colin at durbanet.co.za  Wed Sep  6 12:36:52 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:36:52 +0800
Subject: netscape fonts, was Re: [plug] Web Site
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009061216330.1552-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>
Message-ID: <39B5C9E4.167359B@durbanet.co.za>

Mike Holland wrote:
> On nestcape I see serifs - a tiny Times font. So I check my preferences,
> and enable "use document-specified fonts". But now I get a courier font!
> (ie fixed-width)

I'm seeing the same - NS 4.74, Linux. Saving the page and correcting
helvectia to helvetica sorts it.

Seems NS goes to non-proportional if there's a font face specified and
it doesn't recognise any of the given face names.

Colin


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep  6 12:40:53 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:40:53 +0800
Subject: [plug] database
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009061137300.28106-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B5CAD5.DF542297@brooks.smileys.net>

"Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima" wrote:
>> Uh, how hard is this? If Access will write anything like ASCII, it should be a
>> two-minute job.

> Yeah export each table a CSV, use the appropriate CREATE TABLE () and INSERT
> INTO statements.  then I have psql access to the data.   The slow down is the
> web/console interface that doen't mean I have to type long SQL statements.

sed <list.csv -e "s/'/''/g" | \
  gawk -F, \
  '{ print "INSERT INTO members VALUES('\"$1\"','\"$2\"','\"$3\"');\"; }" \
  >list.sql
psql plug <list.sql

-- 
Don't be nasty about our monarchy. That's our job. Get your own if
you want to be rude about them. -- Graham Cluley <sandspm at cix.co.uk>


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 12:45:55 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:45:55 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
References: <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au> <20000906100338.F1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5B548.165BF0B8@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906111844.I1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5BB8B.3484B66@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906114655.J1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <20000906115531.B692@portal.lostrealm.com> <20000906115905.K1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5C440.965B6B53@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906121636.L1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B5CC02.7E4163E6@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Christian wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 12:12:48PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > My understanding, was that the reason for restricting access to unit
> > materials, was to prevent people who were not enrolled in particular
> > units, from accessing the materials.
> > But, I could be wrong.
> 
> You are.  Anyone can walk in off the street and come to a Murdoch
> lecture.  As such, restricting access to lecture notes seems more than a
> little pointless.

I did not refer to the effectiveness of the principle, but the intent.

Just because the effectiveness may be lacking, does not mean that the
intent does not exist.

The intent is still, I believe, as I have stated.

All that you have said, is that the method is futile, not that the
intent does not exist.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep  6 12:47:25 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:47:25 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web Site
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009052134100.15880-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>
Message-ID: <39B5CC5D.F0D34487@brooks.smileys.net>

Mike Holland wrote:
> Lets see the source ...

>   <font face="verdana, helvectia, arial" size="-1">

Alpha is following an example I set before him, except I (hope I) spelt
"helvectia" better, and put arial first. Nowadays, I would use...

    <font face="verdana,helvetica,sans-serif">

...since arial gets subbed for helvetica on most machines that don't have it,
and sans-serif is a catch-all for the vanishingly few remaining machines that
have neither.

> Is verdana a windoze font, or should I have in in X? And is there really a
> font called helvectia, or is that a typo for helvetica?

Well, I guess it's not a typoe for GoudyOldStyle. (-:

-- 
"The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining
armour to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos
neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second-
rate technology, led them into it in the first place."
    -- writer Douglas Adams, on Windows 95


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 12:48:44 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:48:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] acrobat reader and printing
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4EB7E.BDE51DCA@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B4F0A7.9C2840B7@iinet.net.au> <20000906100338.F1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5B548.165BF0B8@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906111844.I1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39B5BB8B.3484B66@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906114655.J1303@eagle.amnet.net.au> <20000906115531.B692@portal.lostrealm.com> <39B5C432.F37816D2@durbanet.co.za> <20000906121724.M1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B5CCAC.13A25F1@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Christian wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 12:12:34PM +0800, Colin Muller wrote:
> 
> > Of course, we could get into a long discussion about whether this sort
> > of writing, like GPL'd software, should be open-licensed. Current
> > conventions (small 'c') in the use and abuse of copyright on this sort
> > of material make it a pretty bold thing to do, though - and lecturers'
> > hands are often tied by the sort of institutional restrictions you
> > mention.
> 
> Even if it were freely made available for reproduction and
> redistribution, you would still have to acknowledge authorship...

In theory, anyway.

Academia has been long known to plagiarise - seldom do people other than
students, get caught out and exposed.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep  6 12:51:23 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:51:23 +0800
Subject: [plug] Sendmail that came with RH6
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009051730500.28656-100000@rave.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B5CD4B.1E2A271E@brooks.smileys.net>

Jonathon Bates wrote:
> Just wondering what hte sort of security holes are in sendmail!
> And if sendmail.org willhave all the patches online.

Use PostFix unless you must use SendMail. More secure by design, lighter weight,
easier to configure. The payback is it's not as flexible, but 99% of sites have
no such exotic requirements anyway.

-- 
If a `religion' is defined to be a system of ideas that contains
unprovable statements, then Godel taught us that mathematics is
not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove
itself to be one. -- John Barrow


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 12:52:42 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:52:42 +0800
Subject: [plug] 30 theses
References: <39B5C6AC.E68CFCFF@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39B5CD9A.4AC16410@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Leon Brooks wrote:
> 
> [lunch break time: please read this and add theses. Each thesis should be short
> (prefereably 2 lines or less) and to the point, but (and you know who you are)
> not violent or needlessly offensive. I plan to collate all useful suggestions
> and get them posted somewhere well-read on the Internet]
> 
> Preamble
> ~~~~~~~~
> 
> One might think that during the past 483 years, some civil progress would have
> been made. However, it seems that in certain areas, specifically computing,
> "there is nothing new under the sun". Today we are faced with a monopolistic
> situation not unlike the one faced by Martin Luther when he nailed his 95 theses
> to the door of the Wittemburg cathedral.
> 
> "The only thing one learns from history is that nobody learns anything from
> history", claimed Hegel, and these new theses are yet another effort to prove
> him wrong. It is our fond hope that you will take these ideas to heart, and
> change the way you think about computers, perhaps even change the decisions you
> make about buying and specifying computers.
> 
> While the modern equivalent of this action would be to "nail" our 95 theses to
> Microsoft's home page, we feel that this would not even be as well received as
> Martin's action was in his day, so we are publishing these theses here.
> 
> 1. The opportunity for greatest freedom of choice is key to the greatest common
> good.
> 
> 2. Freedom of choice naturally includes the freedom to avoid choice.
> 
> 3. The safest and simplest way to guarantee freedom of choice is to leave as
> many choices open as possible in each step of the software food chain, from
> developers through distributors to end users.
> 
> 4. The only certain method of pushing control out towards each end user is to
> make complete and useable source code readily available to everyone.
> 
> 5. Long feedback chains mean late and often erroneous changes to software.
> 
> 6. The shortest possible feedback chain, zero hops, results when the end user
> can also be the developer, and vice versa.
> 
> 7. Tailored gear can be made to fit better than sweatshop production-line gear.
> 
> 8. Practice produces a more well-rounded product than theory.
> 
> 9. Most people work best when they're working for themselves.
> 
> 10. Most people take better care of something that they own. We need to hear the
> lesson in "Don't worry, it's a rental."
> 
> 11. Many eyeballs (and minds) make light work of debugging.
> 
> 12. The only certain way to provide ownership, short feedback chains, practical
> coding, self-powered and empowered workers and a broad skill base is to make
> development tools readily available to the end user.
> 
> 13. An example can be worth a thousand words of theory.
> 
> 14. Monocultures are unhealthy, and in the long term not viable (in a natural
> setting, they will die out: think about the Irish potato famine or the effects
> of Texan broadacre monocropping on Russian farmland).
> 
> 15. Polycultures are healthy and beneficial, even for nearby or connected
> monocultures. The most robust situations in nature are extremely complex.
> 
> 16. The only certain way to provide a broad spectrum of useful examples is to
> establish a framework within which source code access is a right and source code
> provision is an honour.
> 
> 17. Entities with a larger number of centres of control are more difficult to
> destroy than more "concentrated" structures.
> 
> 18. Entities with a larger number of centres of control are more difficult to
> subvert than more "homogeneous" structures.
> 
> 19. Any significant success in a contested field will result in attempts to
> subvert or destroy the successful entity from limited numbers of hostile
> competitors.
> 
> 20. Distribution (even abandonment) of control makes destruction or subversion
> of an entity by hostile competitors difficult more quickly than it makes
> assistance or empowerment of the entity by sympathisers difficult.
> 
> 21. Hostile competitors must also have a right to life, however "the liberty of
> the corporation must be thus far limited: it must not make a nuisance of itself
> to other entities."
> 
> 22. There are many "right ways" of acheiving an end; where resources permit,
> many should be tried.
> 
> 23. Reliability is generally more important for a user than snazzy features.
> 
> 24. Reliability is generally more important for a user than the product being on
> supermarket shelves (or FTP servers) for Christmas.
> 
> 25. Wide document availability is generally more important that the power to
> double-underscore, colour or "fontasize" about your text.
> 
> 26. Keeping your passwords, credit card numbers and disk structure safe is
> generally more important than being able to fly a little man around on somebody
> else's screen on the fiery rocket blast from his backside, accompanied by a
> jolly tune.
> 
> 27. Having a public encryption system that works is better than having a private
> one with your name on it and enormous security holes.
> 
> 28. "Write once, run anywhere" is more safely and politely achieved with Python,
> TCL or PERL than with a black-box ActiveX binary or VBS.
> 
> 29. Reliability, interoperability and security are generally better achived by
> bowing to a standards committee than by bullying one.
> 
> 30. Paying a local computer guru $500 to set your machine up "just so" feels a
> lot better than paying a remote and faceless software corporation $500 just for
> a licence to use it.
> 
> 31. [add more theses here: we want 95 of them in the end]
> 
> --
> "I think that's how Chicago got started. A bunch of people in New York
> said, 'Gee, I'm enjoying the crime and the poverty, but it just isn't
> cold enough. Let's go west.'" -- Richard Jeni

39. Assertions should be clear, in plain english, and, devoid of
metaphors.

40. Applications and output, should be designed to be portable; to be
hardware platform independent, to be operating system independent, and,
to be application independent.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 13:46:15 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 13:46:15 +0800
Subject: [plug] GDI printer
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4F7CF.FBA11463@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B503DB.EB50D771@brooks.smileys.net> <39B51163.16770817@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B5974A.CB6D10B8@brooks.smileys.net> <39B5B8C2.8442F536@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B5C99F.73454EEA@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39B5DA27.D02C434D@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Leon Brooks wrote:
> 
> Bret Busby wrote:
> > I am yet to find Linux
> > applications, and drivers, that work with a GDI printer.
> 
> Start here:
> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-09-03-001-04-OS-HW-HL
> 
> BTW, GDI printers suck. They're cheap in all possible ways and blow up easily.
> 
> > Lynx is not the only Linux browser, you know;
> 
> <sarcasm weight=heavy>Can you imagine my surprise when I discovered
> this?</sarcasm>
> 
> Lynx does, however, show you the headers if you ask it to. And many other things
> that *none* of the graphical browsers will do for you.
> 
> --
> "Accurately delivered, a cream pie is an uncannily precise barometer
>  of human nature." -- Noel Godin, pie-throwing anarchist

Thanks for the pointer, about the GDI printers. It shows that it is
being done. However, from the article, it appears that it is a matter of
someone writing the device drivers, and the purpose of the article seems
to be giving hints that may be useful to device programmers, who write
drivers for printers. I am not ashamed to admit that, at this time, that
is way beyond me. Different people have their different areas, and,
systems programming is not mine. I have to rely on the work of others,
in that respect. 

However, this problem is not just limited to GDI printers. Trying to get
the printer manufacturers, who insist on changing their printer models
on almost a monthly basis, to advise whether older printer drivers (such
as Linux printer drivers), can be used on the available current model
printers, is a waste of time, as they might as well all be producing GDI
printers, with no interest in their printers running with any OS other
than MS Windows.

A good example, is trying to get Epson to advise whether any of their
current range of printers will run with the 640, 800, and so on, printer
drivers. Their answer, is to say, go and buy a driver, from this other
company. HP's response, even though they supposedly support Linux, and
have had their own version of UNIX, for years, is that they are not
interested.

This is unfortunate, as it could be a good marketing opportunity, for
the manufacturers to advertise "This printer runs with Linux", or "This
printer is compatible with any version of UNIX", or "This printer comes
with drivers for Linux, UNIX, etc", or, even, to say "printer driver
emulations: Epson 640, 800 (or, HP Deskjet 500C , (or, some other
printer for which a Linux driver gives "Perfect" results, from the
HOW-TO) )".

But, none of the printer manufacturers, or, not many of them, appear to
be interested in compatibility of their printers.


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 14:10:19 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 14:10:19 +0800
Subject: [plug] GDI printer
References: <20000905205521.A8569@indigo.net.au> <39B4F7CF.FBA11463@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B503DB.EB50D771@brooks.smileys.net> <39B51163.16770817@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B5974A.CB6D10B8@brooks.smileys.net> <39B5B8C2.8442F536@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B5C99F.73454EEA@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39B5DFCB.B6BB4446@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Leon Brooks wrote:
> 

<snip>

> BTW, GDI printers suck. They're cheap in all possible ways and blow up easily.
> 

Not all GDI printers. I have been using an NEC Superscript 660+, for a
couple of years, now, and it churns out pages okay. Apart from some
problems, initially, with the driver installation, it has not given any
problems (apart from the absence of a Linux driver, and, only having
drivers for Win3.x and Win9x; notably, not WinNT).

While we do not have a high throughput; a ream of paper tends to last a
month or so, it has done okay, for the throughput.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From jbreen at wn.com.au  Wed Sep  6 15:50:29 2000
From: jbreen at wn.com.au (John Breen)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 15:50:29 +0800
Subject: [plug] GDI printer
Message-ID: <18467200093675029812@wn.com.au>

>However, this problem is not just limited to GDI printers. Trying to 
>get
>the printer manufacturers, who insist on changing their printer 
>models

This is indeed the case, although I have generally found that most
manufacturers do (still) provide some sort of list in their manual of
"what drivers to try if you can't get ours" - something which dates
back to the DOS days when every program had to provide its own way of
talking to the printer.

At least my last non-GDI printer did this, and I assume others do...


|
| John Breen
|
| jbreen at wn.com.au
| john at fairport.com.au
|
| "Do not worry, Arthur Dent.  Be afraid.  Be VERY afraid."
| Agrajag, "Life, the Universe and Everything"
|



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 16:00:04 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 16:00:04 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mailing list archive
Message-ID: <39B5F984.F6C42023@clearsol.iinet.net.au>


What has happened to the mailing list archive?

I have had a few attempts to access it, and keep getting "Document
contains no data".

I was trying to research something.
-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From myk at golden.wattle.id.au  Wed Sep  6 16:04:06 2000
From: myk at golden.wattle.id.au (Mike Holland)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 16:04:06 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] GDI printer
In-Reply-To: <39B5C99F.73454EEA@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009061557110.1167-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>

On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:

> BTW, GDI printers suck. They're cheap in all possible ways and blow up easily.

Isnt using ghostscript on Linux the same as using GDI on windoze,
that is, both just send a compressed bitmap to the printer?
  A smarter printer would be a waste under Linux, unless it does
postscript.

My Brother hl730 laser works well in "GDI" under linux, but i had to
compile a custom gs with the right driver. The driver was available
before any NT driver.
  This printer does HP emulation, but only at 300dpi. And its faster using
the "GDI" driver!

-- 
Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
                          --==--



From tony at cantech.net.au  Wed Sep  6 16:28:04 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 16:28:04 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Mailing list archive
In-Reply-To: <39B5F984.F6C42023@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009061627200.28106-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> 
> What has happened to the mailing list archive?
> 
> I have had a few attempts to access it, and keep getting "Document
> contains no data".


Ummmm what pages were you trying to get at ..... the frontpage comes up for me


Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 16:33:02 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 16:33:02 +0800
Subject: [plug] GDI printer
References: <18467200093675029812@wn.com.au>
Message-ID: <39B6013E.42F83BB8@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

John Breen wrote:
> 
> >However, this problem is not just limited to GDI printers. Trying to
> >get
> >the printer manufacturers, who insist on changing their printer
> >models
> 
> This is indeed the case, although I have generally found that most
> manufacturers do (still) provide some sort of list in their manual of
> "what drivers to try if you can't get ours" - something which dates
> back to the DOS days when every program had to provide its own way of
> talking to the printer.
> 
> At least my last non-GDI printer did this, and I assume others do...
> 

The problem is that it is in the manual, and not generally in the
advertising flyers, to any great extent. If I know, for example, that an
Epson 640 or 800 printer, or, a HP Deskjet 500C, printer, apparently
works well with Linux, trying to find emulations of these, for current
range printers, is almost impossible. And, shop staff generally know
only that the printers are things that get plugged into computers, and
into power points, and turned on, paper put into them, and then you
press print (in Windows), and printed paper magically comes out of the
printers. My experience, in trying to find what printer drivers work
with Epson of HP printers, in their current ranges, is "Dur, don't
know". And, that is from both the shops, and, the technical support
people from the printer manufacturers.

There is no point, in buying a printer, on the off-chance that it may do
the job. We should be able to find, before buying, whether a printer
will do the job.

I can't do that, from either the shops, or, from the printer
manufacturers because either they don't know, or, they are not
interested, so, I just don't waste money by buying printers that may or
may not do the job.

Thus, I am stuck with the GDI printer, until the shops and the
manufacturers, provide pre-sales support for their printers, and know
what they are trying to sell.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Wed Sep  6 16:34:08 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 16:34:08 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Mailing list archive
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009061627200.28106-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000906163110.16280j-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima wrote:

> Ummmm what pages were you trying to get at ..... the frontpage comes up
> for me

It didn't have a link for September 2000 when I checked it a few mins ago,
and now that it does, it actually links through to July.

Also if you type the address for september in manually
(http://www.cantech.net.au/plug/2000-09/threads.html)
there's a whole bunch of truncated messages down the bottom.  Any ideas
what happened there?

 - Matt



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 16:36:09 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 16:36:09 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mailing list archive
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009061627200.28106-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B601F9.B55A347C@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

"Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima" wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> >
> > What has happened to the mailing list archive?
> >
> > I have had a few attempts to access it, and keep getting "Document
> > contains no data".
> 
> Ummmm what pages were you trying to get at ..... the frontpage comes up for me
> 

I got it, now - couldn't get it before.

I was trying to follow the link, from the Mailing List page, at
http://plug.linux.org.au/

It may have just been some hiccup for a while, or the cantech server may
have been busy, or something.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From apolglaze at book-keepingnetwork.com.au  Wed Sep  6 16:59:54 2000
From: apolglaze at book-keepingnetwork.com.au (Alex Polglaze)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 16:59:54 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mailing list archive
References: <39B5F984.F6C42023@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B6078A.C64852F7@book-keepingnetwork.com.au>



Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> What has happened to the mailing list archive?
> 

I think its working fine. A short e-mail from Bret is indeed a sight. 

> I have had a few attempts to access it, and keep getting "Document
> contains no data".
> 
For missing archives, check any one of Bret's posts, everything seems to
be in there.

Alex


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 17:09:36 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:09:36 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mailing list archive
References: <39B5F984.F6C42023@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B6078A.C64852F7@book-keepingnetwork.com.au>
Message-ID: <39B609D0.27D38344@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Alex Polglaze wrote:
> 
> Bret Busby wrote:
> >
> > What has happened to the mailing list archive?
> >
> 
> I think its working fine. A short e-mail from Bret is indeed a sight.
> 
> > I have had a few attempts to access it, and keep getting "Document
> > contains no data".
> >
> For missing archives, check any one of Bret's posts, everything seems to
> be in there.
> 
> Alex

I think that we can do without the personal comments.

And, since you seem to think that anything in the archives, will be
contained in one of my emails, perhaps you could explain whether T1
lines are used in Australia? I had thought that they had been mentioned
in the past, on the mailing list, but could not find a reference to them
in the archives, when I was able to search the archives.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Wed Sep  6 17:26:36 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 17:26:36 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Mailing list archive
In-Reply-To: <39B609D0.27D38344@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000906172303.16280k-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> perhaps you could explain whether T1 lines are used in Australia?

Australia uses E1 lines, which are 2Mb as opposed to 1.5Mb which also
means when you buy a Prime Rate ISDN (PRI) for a digital modem box, they
contain 30 lines, not 23 like in the U.S.
(which is why a Cisco AS5200, for example, in the U.S. holds 46 modems,
 where the Australian version holds 60)

Anyway I think Alex was referring to the fact that despite numerous
complaints you still insist on quoting _MUCH_ more than is necessary from
previous posts, and some of us are getting rather annoyed about it.

 - Matt



From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Wed Sep  6 17:36:27 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 17:36:27 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mailing list archive
In-Reply-To: <39B609D0.27D38344@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 05:09:36PM +0800
References: <39B5F984.F6C42023@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B6078A.C64852F7@book-keepingnetwork.com.au> <39B609D0.27D38344@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000906173627.F3202@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

Hey Hey,

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 05:09:36PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> And, since you seem to think that anything in the archives, will be
> contained in one of my emails, perhaps you could explain whether T1
> lines are used in Australia? I had thought that they had been mentioned
> in the past, on the mailing list, but could not find a reference to them
> in the archives, when I was able to search the archives.

Not that I know about, the US went a different way with the telco
infrastructure to Australia. Although that is being superceeded  with
more recent technologies like fibre (called SONET with services like OC-3
etc...).

Rather than T1s and T3s, we have E1s and E3s:

	T1 = 1.544 Mbps (24 channels multiplexed)
	T2 = [4 x T1] 6.312 Mbps (not usually available to end consumers)
	T3 = [6 x T2] 44.736 Mbps (this is really big)

	E1 = 2.048 Mbps (32 channels total, 30 for data)

I can't find my referrences for the number of E1s go into E2s, E3s etc, but it
follows the same was a a T1 -> T3 (just different numbers) ;)



Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Wed Sep  6 17:43:24 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 17:43:24 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mailing list archive
In-Reply-To: <20000906173627.F3202@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>; from jason@mindsocket.com.au on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 05:36:27PM +0800
References: <39B5F984.F6C42023@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B6078A.C64852F7@book-keepingnetwork.com.au> <39B609D0.27D38344@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906173627.F3202@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>
Message-ID: <20000906174324.G3202@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

Hiya,

> 	T3 = [6 x T2] 44.736 Mbps (this is really big)

woops that should be 7x

> 	E1 = 2.048 Mbps (32 channels total, 30 for data)

found it ;)

	E2 = [4 x E1] 8.448 Mbps (again, not usually available)
	E3 = [4 x E2] 34.368 Mbps


Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 18:22:48 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 18:22:48 +0800
Subject: T1 (was Re: [plug] Mailing list archive)
References: <39B5F984.F6C42023@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B6078A.C64852F7@book-keepingnetwork.com.au> <39B609D0.27D38344@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906173627.F3202@nikita.mindsocket.com.au> <20000906174324.G3202@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>
Message-ID: <39B61AF8.AB65A39C@clearsol.iinet.net.au>


Thanks, everyone, for the info about the T1.

After about 10-15 calls to Telecom, and, about half an hour or, so, I
was advised that Australia uses E3, clocked down to T1, and that E3 is
used everywhere else in the world, execpt for the USA, which uses T1.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep  6 18:47:42 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 18:47:42 +0800
Subject: [plug] GDI printers
Message-ID: <39B620CE.E8BEC5C4@brooks.smileys.net>

Bret, here's the driver for the printer referenced in the previous
article I posted on the topic:

    http://freshmeat.net/projects/ml85p/

The author puzzles me. His FM contributions have been this and two CoBOL
compilers, hardly what you'd call related subjects...

-- 
If at first you don't succeed, try a shorter bungee.


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep  6 19:07:51 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 19:07:51 +0800
Subject: [plug] mailing list
Message-ID: <39B62587.F4A8F495@brooks.smileys.net>

Matt Kemner wrote:

> Also if you type the address for september in manually
> (http://www.cantech.net.au/plug/2000-09/threads.html)
> there's a whole bunch of truncated messages down the
> bottom. Any ideas what happened there?

Looks like we'll have to blame Bret. Every single one of the orphans is
his. I wonder if he has ooh-that-smarts quotes turned on?

-- 
If at first you don't succeed, try a shorter bungee.


From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Wed Sep  6 19:01:28 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 19:01:28 +0800
Subject: T1 (was Re: [plug] Mailing list archive)
In-Reply-To: <39B61AF8.AB65A39C@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 06:22:48PM +0800
References: <39B5F984.F6C42023@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B6078A.C64852F7@book-keepingnetwork.com.au> <39B609D0.27D38344@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906173627.F3202@nikita.mindsocket.com.au> <20000906174324.G3202@nikita.mindsocket.com.au> <39B61AF8.AB65A39C@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000906190128.I3202@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

Hey,

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 06:22:48PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> Thanks, everyone, for the info about the T1.
> 
> After about 10-15 calls to Telecom, and, about half an hour or, so, I
> was advised that Australia uses E3, clocked down to T1, and that E3 is
> used everywhere else in the world, execpt for the USA, which uses T1.

Read my last email, the bit about the USA being about the only place that use
Tn (n = integer) carriers is true.


Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From tclark at telia.com  Wed Sep  6 19:52:51 2000
From: tclark at telia.com (Tony Clark)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 13:52:51 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: T1 (was Re: [plug] Mailing list archive)
Message-ID: <200009061152.NAA09190@d1o901.telia.com>


quoting Jason Nicholls <jason at mindsocket.com.au>:

> Hey,
> 
> On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 06:22:48PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> > Thanks, everyone, for the info about the T1.
> > 
> > After about 10-15 calls to Telecom, and, about half an hour or, so, 
I
> > was advised that Australia uses E3, clocked down to T1, and that E3 
is
> > used everywhere else in the world, execpt for the USA, which uses 
T1.
> 
> Read my last email, the bit about the USA being about the only place 
that
> use
> Tn (n = integer) carriers is true.
> 
Lots of places use T1 not just the USA.  Hong Kong and China come to 
mind.  They actually use a mix of E1 and T1.  Mind you, I haven't ever 
heard of T1 being used in Oz, so I suggest Bret makes another 15 calls 
and clears that bit of mis-information up  :-)

tony

Contract Digital Design
Mobile +46 702 894 667


From billk at iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 20:08:05 2000
From: billk at iinet.net.au (BillK)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 20:08:05 +0800
Subject: T1 (was Re: [plug] Mailing list archive)
References: <39B5F984.F6C42023@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B6078A.C64852F7@book-keepingnetwork.com.au> <39B609D0.27D38344@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906173627.F3202@nikita.mindsocket.com.au> <20000906174324.G3202@nikita.mindsocket.com.au> <39B61AF8.AB65A39C@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000906190128.I3202@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>
Message-ID: <39B633A5.2B66F3F@iinet.net.au>

There's actually a rule of thumb that public telco's (used to) use that
between any two countries that use T series internally, the links are in
T format (USA, Japan, Canada, Latin America (I think) etc) while
everyone else uses E rates, including if one country used T internally. 
However with deregulation, commercial links (particularly sattelite etc)
and standardisation, E seems to winning out from the reading I have
done.

BillK


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 20:33:40 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 20:33:40 +0800
Subject: [plug] mailing list
References: <39B62587.F4A8F495@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39B639A4.BFAE16E6@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Leon Brooks wrote:
> 
> Matt Kemner wrote:
> 
> > Also if you type the address for september in manually
> > (http://www.cantech.net.au/plug/2000-09/threads.html)
> > there's a whole bunch of truncated messages down the
> > bottom. Any ideas what happened there?
> 
> Looks like we'll have to blame Bret. Every single one of the orphans is
> his. I wonder if he has ooh-that-smarts quotes turned on?
> 
> --
> If at first you don't succeed, try a shorter bungee.

I don't understand.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 20:39:41 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 20:39:41 +0800
Subject: [plug] GDI printers
References: <39B620CE.E8BEC5C4@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39B63B0D.DC685F81@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Leon Brooks wrote:
> 
> Bret, here's the driver for the printer referenced in the previous
> article I posted on the topic:
> 
>     http://freshmeat.net/projects/ml85p/
> 
> The author puzzles me. His FM contributions have been this and two CoBOL
> compilers, hardly what you'd call related subjects...
> 
> --
> If at first you don't succeed, try a shorter bungee.

Thanks.

Now, what I need is for some person to do the same for the NEC (without
the COBOL...).

Or, alternatively, for the printer manufacturers to be a bit more
co-operative...

I hope this doesn't mean that the only people who can create Linux
drivers for GDI printers, are COBOL people...

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From ojw at iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 21:41:59 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 13:41:59 +0000
Subject: [plug] Flamebait
Message-ID: <39B649A7.B609A7C1@iinet.net.au>

Ok... I'm a pretty open minded guy, but am I the only one who thinks
stallman's response to the GPLing of the QT library is being a tad
unforgiving?

--
Oliver White



From sharpe at ns.aus.com  Wed Sep  6 14:00:18 2000
From: sharpe at ns.aus.com (Richard Sharpe)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 15:00:18 +0900
Subject: [plug] Mailing list archive
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000906172303.16280k-100000@mercury.wasp.net
 .au>
References: <39B609D0.27D38344@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000906150018.009f6480@203.16.214.248>

At 05:26 PM 9/6/00 +0800, Matt Kemner wrote:
>On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
>
>> perhaps you could explain whether T1 lines are used in Australia?

Hmmm, there seems to be a number of errors here. Hopefully, I will not add
to them.

>Australia uses E1 lines, which are 2Mb as opposed to 1.5Mb which also

That should be 2.048Mbps as opposed to 1.544Mbps. T1 consistes of a frame
containing 24 channels (8 bits) and a framing bit for a total of 193 bits
in 125 microSeconds, or 1.544Mbps. A superframe, containing 12 or 24
frames, makes the framing bits more useful as they can be used for
signalling as well as framing.  In T1, one data channel is often used for
signalling as well (sometimes divided into 4 D channels of 16kbps each).

E1, OTOH, consists of 32 channels (8 bits) in 125 microSeconds, or
2.048Mbps. Users are only given 30 channels, and the other two are used for
framing and signalling.

>means when you buy a Prime Rate ISDN (PRI) for a digital modem box, they

Primary Rate Interface. They are ISDN, and they are channelized. That is,
you get no choice. With E1 they are 30 channels each of 64kbps, and if what
you wanted was 2.048Mbps, you have to use multilink PPP and you don't quite
get it anyway, as two channels are not available.

If you buy Frame Relay, OTOH, you get X.21, and that can go up to almost
2.048Mbps as one data stream, over which you use PVCs (or SVCs).

There is mucho info on this in books like: Understanding SONET/SDH and ATM
by Stamatios V Kartalopoulos.

The Ex and Tx signalling rates and framing are examples of SDH, the
Synchronous Digital Hierarchy.

>contain 30 lines, not 23 like in the U.S.
>(which is why a Cisco AS5200, for example, in the U.S. holds 46 modems,
> where the Australian version holds 60)

[Deletia]

> - Matt


Regards
-------
Richard Sharpe, sharpe at ns.aus.com
Samba (Team member, www.samba.org), Ethereal (Team member, www.zing.org)
Contributing author, SAMS Teach Yourself Samba in 24 Hours
Author, Special Edition, Using Samba




From sharpe at ns.aus.com  Wed Sep  6 14:05:46 2000
From: sharpe at ns.aus.com (Richard Sharpe)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 15:05:46 +0900
Subject: T1 (was Re: [plug] Mailing list archive)
In-Reply-To: <200009061152.NAA09190@d1o901.telia.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000906150546.00a0b650@203.16.214.248>

At 01:52 PM 9/6/00 +0200, Tony Clark wrote:
>
>quoting Jason Nicholls <jason at mindsocket.com.au>:
>Lots of places use T1 not just the USA.

That is true. Japan and Canada for example, although, Canada is perhaps
cheating, as it is almost the 53rd state of the Union.

>                                         Hong Kong and China come to 
>mind.  

I would be surprised. The Ex series is more rational than the Tx series,
and major Telco in HK is tightly plugged into Europe. However, I do not
know for sure.

>      They actually use a mix of E1 and T1. 

This would seem very unlikely, as the framing formats are very different.
You would need special equipment to convert between them.

>                                            Mind you, I haven't ever 
>heard of T1 being used in Oz, so I suggest Bret makes another 15 calls 
>and clears that bit of mis-information up  :-)

That is correct. As others have said, E1 etc are used in Australia.

>tony
>
>Contract Digital Design
>Mobile +46 702 894 667
>
>

Regards
-------
Richard Sharpe, sharpe at ns.aus.com
Samba (Team member, www.samba.org), Ethereal (Team member, www.zing.org)
Contributing author, SAMS Teach Yourself Samba in 24 Hours
Author, Special Edition, Using Samba




From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep  6 23:50:28 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:50:28 +0800
Subject: [plug] Flamebait
References: <39B649A7.B609A7C1@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B667C4.2A8968D5@brooks.smileys.net>

Oliver White wrote:
> Ok... I'm a pretty open minded guy, but am I the only one who thinks
> stallman's response to the GPLing of the QT library is being a tad
> unforgiving?

No, pedantic is the word you're looking for. RMS is famous for it.

-- 
Well, enough clowning around.  Perl is, in intent, a cleaned up
and summarized version of that wonderful semi-natural language
known as "Unix".
    -- Larry Wall in <1994Apr6.184419.3687 at netlabs.com>


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep  6 23:52:25 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:52:25 +0800
Subject: [plug] GDI printers
References: <39B620CE.E8BEC5C4@brooks.smileys.net> <39B63B0D.DC685F81@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B66839.39A74691@brooks.smileys.net>

Bret Busby wrote:
> Leon Brooks wrote:
>> Bret, here's the driver for the printer referenced in the previous
>> article I posted on the topic:

>>     http://freshmeat.net/projects/ml85p/

>> The author puzzles me. His FM contributions have been this and two CoBOL
>> compilers, hardly what you'd call related subjects...

> Now, what I need is for some person to do the same for the NEC (without
> the COBOL...).

As I understand it, the GDI printers are mostly very similar, implying that this
or another GDI driver may work for your printer. Weeeek! Weeeek! Weeeeek! Go on,
be a guinea pig!

-- 
"I refuse to use any computer language [APL] in which the
proponents shove snippets of code under each other's nose,
saying 'I bet you can't guess what this does!'"
    -- D'Arcy J.M. Cain, in comp.lang.ada


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep  6 23:54:42 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:54:42 +0800
Subject: [plug] mailing list (archive orphans)
References: <39B62587.F4A8F495@brooks.smileys.net> <39B639A4.BFAE16E6@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B668C2.ED067FCD@brooks.smileys.net>

Bret Busby wrote:
> Leon Brooks wrote:
>> Matt Kemner wrote:
>>> Also if you type the address for september in manually
>>> (http://www.cantech.net.au/plug/2000-09/threads.html)
>>> there's a whole bunch of truncated messages down the
>>> bottom. Any ideas what happened there?

>> Looks like we'll have to blame Bret. Every single one of the orphans is
>> his. I wonder if he has ooh-that-smarts quotes turned on?

> I don't understand.

Neither do I. But I'm working on it. I looked at the unthreaded HTML index, and
there were a whole pile of orphan messages down at the end, every single one of
them signed by one B Busby.

-- 
"In my day, we didn't have virtual reality. If a one-eyed razorback
 barbarian warrior was chasing you with an ax, you just had to hope
 you could outrun him." -- Sarah M. Wolford, Hanover


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Wed Sep  6 23:58:47 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 23:58:47 +0800 (WST)
Subject: what's in a bit? (Re: [plug] Mailing list archive)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000906150018.009f6480@203.16.214.248>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000906235212.16280l-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Richard Sharpe wrote:

> >Australia uses E1 lines, which are 2Mb as opposed to 1.5Mb which also
> 
> That should be 2.048Mbps as opposed to 1.544Mbps. T1 consistes of a frame

If you define 1Mb = 1 000 kbits, sure.
To me, 1Mb is 1024kb so an E1 with 32x64kb channels is 2048kb which is 2Mb
If you're defining 1Mb as 1 000 000 bits (to be consistent) you'd end up
with 2.097Mb

I think you'll find however that most people use 1Mb=1024kb=(1024^2)b
when talking about bandwidth (unless they're selling it to you) so I
don't quite understand how you can say I was wrong for saying 2Mb

 - Matt



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  6 23:55:17 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:55:17 +0800
Subject: [plug] GDI printers
References: <39B620CE.E8BEC5C4@brooks.smileys.net> <39B63B0D.DC685F81@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B66839.39A74691@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39B668E5.7B2BDB12@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Leon Brooks wrote:
> 
> Bret Busby wrote:
> > Leon Brooks wrote:
> >> Bret, here's the driver for the printer referenced in the previous
> >> article I posted on the topic:
> 
> >>     http://freshmeat.net/projects/ml85p/
> 
> >> The author puzzles me. His FM contributions have been this and two CoBOL
> >> compilers, hardly what you'd call related subjects...
> 
> > Now, what I need is for some person to do the same for the NEC (without
> > the COBOL...).
> 
> As I understand it, the GDI printers are mostly very similar, implying that this
> or another GDI driver may work for your printer. Weeeek! Weeeek! Weeeeek! Go on,
> be a guinea pig!
> 

Sorry; I missed the point. I will try it (later). I hope it does not
destroy the printer (it is not mine - I just look after it, and, use
it).

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From tclark at telia.com  Thu Sep  7 00:10:42 2000
From: tclark at telia.com (Tony Clark)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 18:10:42 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: T1 (was Re: [plug] Mailing list archive)
Message-ID: <200009061610.SAA26046@d1o901.telia.com>


quoting Richard Sharpe <sharpe at ns.aus.com>:

> I would be surprised. The Ex series is more rational than the Tx 
series,
> and major Telco in HK is tightly plugged into Europe. However, I do 
not
> know for sure.
>
> >      They actually use a mix of E1 and T1.
>
> This would seem very unlikely, as the framing formats are very 
different.
> You would need special equipment to convert between them.

The equipment is quite trival nowdays...and HK is a major 
communications hub with links from Japan, Taiwan, korea etc all of whom 
are T1 based.

tony


Contract Digital Design
Mobile +46 702 894 667


From myk at golden.wattle.id.au  Thu Sep  7 00:41:28 2000
From: myk at golden.wattle.id.au (Mike Holland)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 00:41:28 +0800 (WST)
Subject: T1 (was Re: [plug] Mailing list archive)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000906150546.00a0b650@203.16.214.248>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009070040140.2896-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>

On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Richard Sharpe wrote:

> That is true. Japan and Canada for example, although, Canada is perhaps
> cheating, as it is almost the 53rd state of the Union.

OK, I'll bite. Which are 51 and 52?

-- 
Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
                          --==--



From sharpe at ns.aus.com  Wed Sep  6 21:40:44 2000
From: sharpe at ns.aus.com (Richard Sharpe)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 22:40:44 +0900
Subject: T1 (was Re: [plug] Mailing list archive)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009070040140.2896-100000@donau.golden.wattl
 e.id.au>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906150546.00a0b650@203.16.214.248>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000906224044.00a2d800@203.16.214.248>

At 12:41 AM 9/7/00 +0800, Mike Holland wrote:
>On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Richard Sharpe wrote:
>
>> That is true. Japan and Canada for example, although, Canada is perhaps
>> cheating, as it is almost the 53rd state of the Union.
>
>OK, I'll bite. Which are 51 and 52?

Well, it seems I was wrong :-) I have always believed that there were 52
states, but a check on http://www.123world.com/usstates/ (after running it
through wc to check my counting) shows 51 states.  Of course, the site
could be wrong, but the names look familiar.

As to which is the 51st state, take your pick.

>-- 
>Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
>                          --==--
>
>
>

Regards
-------
Richard Sharpe, sharpe at ns.aus.com
Samba (Team member, www.samba.org), Ethereal (Team member, www.zing.org)
Contributing author, SAMS Teach Yourself Samba in 24 Hours
Author, Special Edition, Using Samba




From sharpe at ns.aus.com  Wed Sep  6 22:26:35 2000
From: sharpe at ns.aus.com (Richard Sharpe)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:26:35 +0900
Subject: T1 (was Re: [plug] Mailing list archive)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000906224044.00a2d800@203.16.214.248>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009070040140.2896-100000@donau.golden.wattl e.id.au>
 <3.0.6.32.20000906150546.00a0b650@203.16.214.248>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000906232635.00a1e370@203.16.214.248>

At 10:40 PM 9/6/00 +0900, Richard Sharpe wrote:
>At 12:41 AM 9/7/00 +0800, Mike Holland wrote:
>>On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Richard Sharpe wrote:
>>
>>> That is true. Japan and Canada for example, although, Canada is perhaps
>>> cheating, as it is almost the 53rd state of the Union.
>>
>>OK, I'll bite. Which are 51 and 52?
>
>Well, it seems I was wrong :-) I have always believed that there were 52
>states, but a check on http://www.123world.com/usstates/ (after running it
>through wc to check my counting) shows 51 states.  Of course, the site
>could be wrong, but the names look familiar.

Well, double blush. After checking with a US citizen, I looked at the data
on the web site, and found:

   Interlink Airlines as a state ...

Apologies for the noise.

>As to which is the 51st state, take your pick.

Obviously, Interlink Airlines ...

>>-- 
>>Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
>>                          --==--
>>
>>
>>
>
>Regards
>-------
>Richard Sharpe, sharpe at ns.aus.com
>Samba (Team member, www.samba.org), Ethereal (Team member, www.zing.org)
>Contributing author, SAMS Teach Yourself Samba in 24 Hours
>Author, Special Edition, Using Samba
>
>
>
>

Regards
-------
Richard Sharpe, sharpe at ns.aus.com
Samba (Team member, www.samba.org), Ethereal (Team member, www.zing.org)
Contributing author, SAMS Teach Yourself Samba in 24 Hours
Author, Special Edition, Using Samba




From kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au  Thu Sep  7 07:53:09 2000
From: kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au (Shackleton, Kevin)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 07:53:09 +0800 
Subject: what's in a bit? (Re: [plug] Mailing list archive)
Message-ID: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E3065B@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>

<pedancy=max>
I notice that Telstra Bigpond site is covered with references about 'mb' -
they offer rates of millibits apparently, where others might try to aim for
megabyes ('MB').

K.

> ----------
> From: 	Matt Kemner[SMTP:zombie at wasp.net.au]
> 
> If you define 1Mb = 1 000 kbits, sure.
> To me, 1Mb is 1024kb so an E1 with 32x64kb channels is 2048kb which is 2Mb
> If you're defining 1Mb as 1 000 000 bits (to be consistent) you'd end up
> with 2.097Mb
> 
> I think you'll find however that most people use 1Mb=1024kb=(1024^2)b
> when talking about bandwidth (unless they're selling it to you) so I
> don't quite understand how you can say I was wrong for saying 2Mb
> 
>  - Matt
> 
> 


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Thu Sep  7 07:49:35 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 07:49:35 +0800
Subject: what's in a bit? (Re: [plug] Mailing list archive)
References: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E3065B@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <39B6D80F.D18F4CA7@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

"Shackleton, Kevin" wrote:
> 
> <pedancy=max>
> I notice that Telstra Bigpond site is covered with references about 'mb' -
> they offer rates of millibits apparently, where others might try to aim for
> megabyes ('MB').
> 
> K.
> 

Given that the prefix "milli", means a thousandth (cf millimetre,
millilitre, etc), this sounds like they are getting some pretty good
resolution. A thousandth of a bit! 

The mind boggles...

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au  Thu Sep  7 07:55:58 2000
From: Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au (Brian Tombleson)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 07:55:58 +0800
Subject: T1 (was Re: [plug] Mailing list archive)
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906150546.00a0b650@203.16.214.248> <3.0.6.32.20000906224044.00a2d800@203.16.214.248>
Message-ID: <01ae01c0185e$0123f4e0$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Sharpe" <sharpe at ns.aus.com>
> At 12:41 AM 9/7/00 +0800, Mike Holland wrote:
> >On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Richard Sharpe wrote:
> >OK, I'll bite. Which are 51 and 52?
>
> As to which is the 51st state, take your pick.
>

In my ignorance, I thought it was 50 states before they added Hawaii and
Alaska .. now 53 with Canada .. but who really cares about american
geography or politics? :)

- Brian.



From Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au  Thu Sep  7 07:57:39 2000
From: Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au (Brian Tombleson)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 07:57:39 +0800
Subject: what's in a bit? (Re: [plug] Mailing list archive)
References: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E3065B@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au> <39B6D80F.D18F4CA7@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <01b401c0185e$3cc6fc40$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bret Busby" <bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:49 AM


> "Shackleton, Kevin" wrote:
> >
> > <pedancy=max>
> > I notice that Telstra Bigpond site is covered with references about
'mb' -
> > they offer rates of millibits apparently, where others might try to aim
for
> > megabyes ('MB').
> >
> > K.
> >
>
> Given that the prefix "milli", means a thousandth (cf millimetre,
> millilitre, etc), this sounds like they are getting some pretty good
> resolution. A thousandth of a bit!
>
> The mind boggles...

Maybe they were thinking of 'millipede' and decided to run with that idea :)

- Brian.



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Thu Sep  7 07:58:38 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 07:58:38 +0800
Subject: T1 (was Re: [plug] Mailing list archive)
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906150546.00a0b650@203.16.214.248> <3.0.6.32.20000906224044.00a2d800@203.16.214.248> <01ae01c0185e$0123f4e0$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>
Message-ID: <39B6DA2E.7D012DA5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Brian Tombleson wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Sharpe" <sharpe at ns.aus.com>
> > At 12:41 AM 9/7/00 +0800, Mike Holland wrote:
> > >On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Richard Sharpe wrote:
> > >OK, I'll bite. Which are 51 and 52?
> >
> > As to which is the 51st state, take your pick.
> >
> 
> In my ignorance, I thought it was 50 states before they added Hawaii and
> Alaska .. now 53 with Canada .. but who really cares about american
> geography or politics? :)
> 
> - Brian.

Wasn't Orstrarlia no. 54?
-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Thu Sep  7 08:00:46 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 08:00:46 +0800
Subject: what's in a bit? (Re: [plug] Mailing list archive)
References: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E3065B@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au> <39B6D80F.D18F4CA7@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <01b401c0185e$3cc6fc40$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>
Message-ID: <39B6DAAE.6930948E@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Brian Tombleson wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bret Busby" <bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au>
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:49 AM
> 
> > "Shackleton, Kevin" wrote:
> > >
> > > <pedancy=max>
> > > I notice that Telstra Bigpond site is covered with references about
> 'mb' -
> > > they offer rates of millibits apparently, where others might try to aim
> for
> > > megabyes ('MB').
> > >
> > > K.
> > >
> >
> > Given that the prefix "milli", means a thousandth (cf millimetre,
> > millilitre, etc), this sounds like they are getting some pretty good
> > resolution. A thousandth of a bit!
> >
> > The mind boggles...
> 
> Maybe they were thinking of 'millipede' and decided to run with that idea :)
> 
> - Brian.

Many sore little feet?

Perhaps, that  is why the EFTPOS machines get a bit slow, sometimes -
the poor little things must get tired, running backwards and forwards,
carrying all those packets.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep  7 08:09:38 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 08:09:38 +0800
Subject: [plug] GDI printers
References: <39B620CE.E8BEC5C4@brooks.smileys.net> <39B63B0D.DC685F81@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B66839.39A74691@brooks.smileys.net> <39B668E5.7B2BDB12@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B6DCC2.6D5B489F@brooks.smileys.net>

Bret Busby wrote:
> Leon Brooks wrote:
>> this
>> or another GDI driver may work for your printer. Weeeek! Weeeek! Weeeeek! Go on,
>> be a guinea pig!

> I hope it does not
> destroy the printer (it is not mine - I just look after it, and, use
> it).

That would be quite an achievement, given that things like motors and power
supplies are not under program control.

-- 
"Somebody once said that in looking for people to hire, you look
for three qualities: integrity, intelligence, and energy. And if
they don't have the first, the other two will kill you. You think
about it; it's true. If you hire somebody without the first, you
really want them to be dumb and lazy." -- Warren Buffet


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Thu Sep  7 08:28:53 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 08:28:53 +0800
Subject: [plug] GDI printers
References: <39B620CE.E8BEC5C4@brooks.smileys.net> <39B63B0D.DC685F81@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B66839.39A74691@brooks.smileys.net> <39B668E5.7B2BDB12@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B6DCC2.6D5B489F@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39B6E145.CCD26D7C@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Leon Brooks wrote:
> 
> Bret Busby wrote:
> > Leon Brooks wrote:
> >> this
> >> or another GDI driver may work for your printer. Weeeek! Weeeek! Weeeeek! Go on,
> >> be a guinea pig!
> 
> > I hope it does not
> > destroy the printer (it is not mine - I just look after it, and, use
> > it).
> 
> That would be quite an achievement, given that things like motors and power
> supplies are not under program control.
> 

But, if the software, through not working properly with the printer,
says "Start printing. Stop Printing. Start Printing. Stop Printing. Warm
Up. Cool Down. Paper Feed. Stop Paper feed.", and, all kinds of
disjointed commands, that cause the printer to think "What's going on
here? It tells me to start, then to stop, to cool down, warm up, and so
on, before I have completed the last task. What does this software think
it is?" 

Then the printer says " Stuff this, I am fed up with being jerked around
(in the physical, not metaphorical, sense, as in stop-start-stop-start,
without giving the mechanical components time to pause). I am taking a
sickie." 

And then, the drive motor dies, or the part that heat-seals the printing
(or whatever it does), goes phht, and dies, and emits lots of smoke.

And then, with the smoke emission, the smoke detector goes off, and the
sprinklers water the computers. But, instead of making the computers
grow bigger and more powerful, the water makes the computers make funny
noises and smells, and, start spiiting out components.

And, with the strange flashing lights, and the noise, the neighbours
call the police, and claim that the aliens have landed, and are trying
to take over the neighbourhood. so, the police send in the tactical
response group, who machine-gun the place.

And then, the fire brigade turn up, and prune the front door, with fire
axes, and, commit axe murder, on any devices that are still living.

Then, we have apocalypse, as the devices try to defend themselves.

If only printer manufacturers would supply Linux drivers, so that we did
not have to face this kind of thing, so early in the morning...

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From leon at lostrealm.com  Thu Sep  7 09:12:15 2000
From: leon at lostrealm.com (Leon Blackwell)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 09:12:15 +0800
Subject: [plug] Flamebait
In-Reply-To: <39B649A7.B609A7C1@iinet.net.au>; from Oliver White on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 01:41:59PM +0000
References: <39B649A7.B609A7C1@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000907091215.A5569@portal.lostrealm.com>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 01:41:59PM +0000, Oliver White wrote:
> Ok... I'm a pretty open minded guy, but am I the only one who thinks
> stallman's response to the GPLing of the QT library is being a tad
> unforgiving?

Nope  :)    Apparently KDE didn't like it too much either:
http://www.kde.org/announcements/rmsresponse.html
http://devel-home.kde.org/~granroth/personally.html

Still, despite not liking a lot of what he says, the world would
probably be a lot worse off *without* RMS.  We need alternate
viewpoints; and it's a fact that in today's society, you only get
noticed and listened to if you're loud and controversial.  RMS is
providing that voice.  If only 10% of his ideas are heard and
accepted, I think that would be just about right  :)



-- 
 +----------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Leon Blackwell                       mailto:leon at lostrealm.com |
 | http://www.lostrealm.com/                         ICQ - 424725 |
 +----------------------------------------------------------------+


From christian at amnet.net.au  Thu Sep  7 10:20:30 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:20:30 +0800
Subject: [plug] Flamebait
In-Reply-To: <39B649A7.B609A7C1@iinet.net.au>; from ojw@iinet.net.au on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 01:41:59PM +0000
References: <39B649A7.B609A7C1@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000907102030.O1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 01:41:59PM +0000, Oliver White wrote:
> Ok... I'm a pretty open minded guy, but am I the only one who thinks
> stallman's response to the GPLing of the QT library is being a tad
> unforgiving?

What specifically about it was unforgiving?  I read it as a largely
congratulatory piece which sought to reduce the divide between the free
software community and KDE/Qt with a touch of humour thrown in at the
end.  More or less what I was thinking and expected.  In fact, I seem to
remember rms mentioning the idea of forgiveness several times and
actually offering it...


From earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com  Thu Sep  7 10:45:56 2000
From: earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com (Earnshaw, Mike)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:45:56 +0800 
Subject: [plug] 4 Port serial cards, mgetty etc etc
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C176D@EXCHANGE>

List,

Just exploring setting up a RAS server and still gathering the info. I
have looked in the archives and picked up that I will need to use
setserial et al.

When booting the machine I see the device (RasTel 4 port PCI) listed
with ttyS0[4-7] and I/O, IRQ etc (checked with dmesg). Listed /dev/ttyS*
but only up to three is listed. Guess I have to create more here?

Using ls -la I see major,minor of 4,6[4-7] for ttyS[0-3] respectively.
Checked man for mknod and info mknod to find some more info on
major,minor but it seems a little spartan on my system. Not checked the
net yet.

Am I going in the correct direction here? 

Thanks,

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Mike Earnshaw      | "Nothing is foolproof to a      | e-mail in header
 Computer Systems  |  sufficiently talented fool"    | Tel : +61 8 9256
1099
  Support          |                     Anon.       | Fax : +61 8 9256
1199
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
   ,-._|\    Union Switch & signal
  /      \   24 Bannick Court
  *_.--._/   Canning Vale, WA 6155, Western Australia
        v 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Thu Sep  7 10:56:49 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:56:49 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] 4 Port serial cards, mgetty etc etc
In-Reply-To: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C176D@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907105527.16280n-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Earnshaw, Mike wrote:

> When booting the machine I see the device (RasTel 4 port PCI) listed
> with ttyS0[4-7] and I/O, IRQ etc (checked with dmesg). Listed /dev/ttyS*
> but only up to three is listed. Guess I have to create more here?

Yes, and a command has been written that does that.

try:

cd /dev
./MAKEDEV ttyS4
./MAKEDEV ttyS5
./MAKEDEV ttyS6
./MAKEDEV ttyS7

 - Matt



From earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com  Thu Sep  7 11:06:01 2000
From: earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com (Earnshaw, Mike)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 11:06:01 +0800 
Subject: [plug] 4 Port serial cards, mgetty etc etc
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C176E@EXCHANGE>

List,

This creates the devices OK, but with a group of 'uucp' rather than
'tty' and the permissions are different, is this something to worry
about given this will beocme a dial in server?

Mike

> ./MAKEDEV ttyS7
> 
>  - Matt
> 
> 


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Thu Sep  7 11:20:44 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 11:20:44 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] 4 Port serial cards, mgetty etc etc
In-Reply-To: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C176E@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907111809.16280p-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Earnshaw, Mike wrote:

> This creates the devices OK, but with a group of 'uucp' rather than
> 'tty' and the permissions are different, is this something to worry
> about given this will beocme a dial in server?

The permissions are different how?

If the server is going to have any local users on it (ie they can telnet
to it, or dial into it without having ppp forced upon them) you need to
make sure they cannot access the devices.  You should probably change
the group to tty to match the way your distro set up the rest of your
system, and chmod them to 660.

 - Matt



From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Thu Sep  7 11:29:44 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 11:29:44 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Flamebait
In-Reply-To: <39B649A7.B609A7C1@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907112041.15792C-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Oliver White wrote:
> Ok... I'm a pretty open minded guy, but am I the only one who thinks
> stallman's response to the GPLing of the QT library is being a tad
> unforgiving?
It seemed very forgiving to me, at least in a legal sense. :)
I presume by "unforgiving" you mean that he explicitly forgave them, thus
implying that they should not be forgiven implicitly? I agree it does seem
that way, but unfortunately, in the legal world, these things must be done
explicitly. The GPL contains a clause by which violating the GPL on a
particular piece of code bars the violator from using that code under the
GPL in the future, even in a conforming manner. For this reason, it is
necessary for the holder of the copyright to explicitly "forgive" the
violation to prevent any further use of the code still being in violation
of the GPL. Obviously RMS knows the supreme importance to our community
of the GPL's legal sanctity, and is taking the necessary steps to ensure
that it's standing is not undermined.

Having said that, I would be shocked if the FSF actually did hold
copyright to any KDE code, as they would certainly have pursued the issue
legally by now, for the same reason. As such, it was perhaps a little
presumptious of RMS to offer forgiveness when it was not needed. On the
other hand, it does set a very good example for others whose code may have
been used illicitly by KDE in the past.

In summary, I don't think he was forgiving or unforgiving, he was just
RMS. RMS seems to be one of the few people who can think on a purely
intellectual level without allowing emotion or social expectation to
interfere. As such he can seem insensitive, but is always, always
consistent in his beliefs/opinions and his statements.

-Greg Mildenhall



From earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com  Thu Sep  7 11:32:36 2000
From: earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com (Earnshaw, Mike)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 11:32:36 +0800 
Subject: [plug] 4 Port serial cards, mgetty etc etc
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1770@EXCHANGE>

List,

> The permissions are different how?

ttyS3 ---> crw------- 1 root tty    4,67
ttyS4 ---> crw-rw---- 1 root uucp   4,68

If I follow your suggestion and chmod them to 660 that is not the same
as the distro settings. Thinking this through if I had connected a modem
to S[0-3] it would not have worked for anyone but root, why would the
distro (RH) do that? I can see why 660 are the required permissions.

Mike


From christian at amnet.net.au  Thu Sep  7 11:40:19 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 11:40:19 +0800
Subject: [plug] Flamebait
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907112041.15792C-100000@live.wasp.net.au>; from assassin@live.wasp.net.au on Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 11:29:44AM +0800
References: <39B649A7.B609A7C1@iinet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907112041.15792C-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000907114019.P1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 11:29:44AM +0800, The Thought Assassin wrote:
> It seemed very forgiving to me, at least in a legal sense. :)
> I presume by "unforgiving" you mean that he explicitly forgave them, thus
> implying that they should not be forgiven implicitly? I agree it does seem
> that way, but unfortunately, in the legal world, these things must be done
> explicitly. The GPL contains a clause by which violating the GPL on a
> particular piece of code bars the violator from using that code under the
> GPL in the future, even in a conforming manner. For this reason, it is
> necessary for the holder of the copyright to explicitly "forgive" the
> violation to prevent any further use of the code still being in violation
> of the GPL. Obviously RMS knows the supreme importance to our community
> of the GPL's legal sanctity, and is taking the necessary steps to ensure
> that it's standing is not undermined.
> Having said that, I would be shocked if the FSF actually did hold
> copyright to any KDE code, as they would certainly have pursued the issue
> legally by now, for the same reason. As such, it was perhaps a little
> presumptious of RMS to offer forgiveness when it was not needed. On the
> other hand, it does set a very good example for others whose code may have
> been used illicitly by KDE in the past.
> In summary, I don't think he was forgiving or unforgiving, he was just
> RMS. RMS seems to be one of the few people who can think on a purely
> intellectual level without allowing emotion or social expectation to
> interfere. As such he can seem insensitive, but is always, always
> consistent in his beliefs/opinions and his statements.

I agree very much with your assessment of what rms said (and him
personally) but I'm puzzled by one thing that maybe you can explain!
Why is it that other people who have violated the GPL have not had to
seek "forgiveness" from the copyright holders for violation in the past?
(Prominent example being Corel but I'm sure people can think of more.)


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Thu Sep  7 11:41:24 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 11:41:24 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] 4 Port serial cards, mgetty etc etc
In-Reply-To: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1770@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907113357.16280q-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Earnshaw, Mike wrote:

> If I follow your suggestion and chmod them to 660 that is not the same
> as the distro settings.

Then set them the same as the distro. :)

Debian sets the group to "dialout" and chmods them to "660" so you can add
people that need to be able to dial _out_ of the box to the dialout group.

> Thinking this through if I had connected a modem to S[0-3] it would not
> have worked for anyone but root

Not true.  Even with mode 660 it would only "work" for people in the
specified (in this case tty) group, which I would hope are only those
users you trust implicitly - you see you are giving them permission to
access the device directly, which allows them to use any of your modems to
dial _out_ and possibly rack up huge phonebills in the process.

You want to set them up so they are only writable by root (or trusted
users) - and then when someone dials in, the appropriate getty program (ie
mgetty) will chown the device to that user - and as soon as they log out,
chown it back to root.

You can test this theory by looking at eg /dev/tty6 and then going to that
virtual terminal (alt-F6) and logging in as a user, and comparing
ownership & permissions - then logging out and comparing again.

 - Matt



From earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com  Thu Sep  7 11:49:31 2000
From: earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com (Earnshaw, Mike)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 11:49:31 +0800 
Subject: [plug] 4 Port serial cards, mgetty etc etc
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1773@EXCHANGE>

Matt, thanks!

Lesson learn't = not all distro's same ;) Thanks for the explaination on
tty, so easy when explained to you.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matt Kemner [mailto:zombie at wasp.net.au]
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 11:39 AM
> To: 'plug at plug.linux.org.au'
> Subject: RE: [plug] 4 Port serial cards, mgetty etc etc
> 
> 
> On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Earnshaw, Mike wrote:
> 
> > If I follow your suggestion and chmod them to 660 that is 
> not the same
> > as the distro settings.
> 
> Then set them the same as the distro. :)
> 
> Debian sets the group to "dialout" and chmods them to "660" 
> so you can add
> people that need to be able to dial _out_ of the box to the 
> dialout group.
> 
> > Thinking this through if I had connected a modem to S[0-3] 
> it would not
> > have worked for anyone but root
> 
> Not true.  Even with mode 660 it would only "work" for people in the
> specified (in this case tty) group, which I would hope are only those
> users you trust implicitly - you see you are giving them permission to
> access the device directly, which allows them to use any of 
> your modems to
> dial _out_ and possibly rack up huge phonebills in the process.
> 
> You want to set them up so they are only writable by root (or trusted
> users) - and then when someone dials in, the appropriate 
> getty program (ie
> mgetty) will chown the device to that user - and as soon as 
> they log out,
> chown it back to root.
> 
> You can test this theory by looking at eg /dev/tty6 and then 
> going to that
> virtual terminal (alt-F6) and logging in as a user, and comparing
> ownership & permissions - then logging out and comparing again.
> 
>  - Matt
> 
> 


From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Thu Sep  7 11:51:20 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 11:51:20 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Flamebait
In-Reply-To: <20000907114019.P1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907114139.15792D-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Christian wrote:
> Why is it that other people who have violated the GPL have not had to
> seek "forgiveness" from the copyright holders for violation in the past?
> (Prominent example being Corel but I'm sure people can think of more.)
Pass. Probably because noone asked RMS, and noone else noticed the clause
of the license. To be honest, I think that RMS actually thought that
offering legal forgiveness from the FSF would be seen as a gesture of
reconciliation, rather than an attempt to outline past differences - as I
mentioned, it is unlikely that it was legally necessitated by any FSF code
in KDE, so it is more a matter of posture rather than legality. I suppose
that in other situations, RMS did not feel the need for such a (perhaps
illadvised) gesture, but the history of hostility called for it here.

Either way, I think it has done more to draw attention to the conflict
than to mend any fences - analogous, in fact to some of the arguments
against an official "Sorry" statement from our government.

-Greg Mildenhall



From bburns at erggroup.com  Thu Sep  7 12:10:13 2000
From: bburns at erggroup.com (bburns at erggroup.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:10:13 +0800
Subject: [plug] sr_mod
Message-ID: <OF1C37F045.D2902739-ON48256953.0016D276@erggroup.com>

Where can I get sr_mod from?

insmod sr_mod returns -

insmod: sr_mod: no module by that name found

cheers,
Ben


---------------------------- ERG Group --------------------------
 The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential
 and may only be read by the intended recipient.
-----------------------------------------------------------------



From zombie at wasp.net.au  Thu Sep  7 12:29:10 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:29:10 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] sr_mod
In-Reply-To: <OF1C37F045.D2902739-ON48256953.0016D276@erggroup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907122631.16280x-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000 bburns at erggroup.com wrote:

> Where can I get sr_mod from?

It is part of the kernel source, and specifically is the code that deals
with SCSI CDROM's

Selecting "SCSI CD-ROM Support" as a module in the kernel config, and
running "make modules;make modules_install;depmod -a" should install that
module in the correct location, and update the dependency database so
modprobe should work after that - providing the kernel you are currently
running was compiled from the local machine.

The module should be installed in /lib/modules/<kernel version>/scsi/

 - Matt



From bburns at erggroup.com  Thu Sep  7 12:34:54 2000
From: bburns at erggroup.com (bburns at erggroup.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:34:54 +0800
Subject: [plug] sr_mod
Message-ID: <OF9093CCFE.37A5B94E-ON48256953.0018D5B1@erggroup.com>




Matt Kemner Wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Sep 2000 bburns at erggroup.com wrote:
> > Where can I get sr_mod from?

> It is part of the kernel source, and specifically is the code that deals
> with SCSI CDROM's

Yep - still trying to get the CD Writer going...

> Selecting "SCSI CD-ROM Support" as a module in the kernel config, and
> running "make modules;make modules_install;depmod -a" should install that
> module in the correct location, and update the dependency database so
> modprobe should work after that - providing the kernel you are currently
> running was compiled from the local machine.

I don't know ANYTHING about a kernel config...  Can't I just use insmod?

> The module should be installed in /lib/modules/<kernel version>/scsi/

Well - its not on my machine, so I guess I need the source... Anyone know
where I can the source from?

> - Matt

Cheers,
Ben




---------------------------- ERG Group --------------------------
 The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential
 and may only be read by the intended recipient.
-----------------------------------------------------------------



From earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com  Thu Sep  7 12:43:00 2000
From: earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com (Earnshaw, Mike)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:43:00 +0800 
Subject: [plug] 4 Port serial cards, mgetty etc etc
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1774@EXCHANGE>

List,

Been following a HOWTO that I got from linuxdoc.org on PPP server HOWTO
and it has says:

"chmod u+s /usr/sbin/pppd ... if you don't do this users will be unable
to set up their ppp link"

Now I am cheating a little since I have a working PPP server that I
inherited (but it only has one serial and we have moved to 4) so I check
things against that to see what the differences are. On the working
server it does not have rws (set uid?) on ppd, but it works. I suppose
if it ain't broke why change it, but what is the difference between the
two.

Thanks

Mike


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Thu Sep  7 12:54:03 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:54:03 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] 4 Port serial cards, mgetty etc etc
In-Reply-To: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1774@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907125232.16280z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Earnshaw, Mike wrote:

> "chmod u+s /usr/sbin/pppd ... if you don't do this users will be unable
> to set up their ppp link"
> 
> things against that to see what the differences are. On the working
> server it does not have rws (set uid?) on ppd, but it works. I suppose
> if it ain't broke why change it, but what is the difference between the
> two.

If you are using mgetty with autoppp (ie instead of the remote user
logging in with a script and then running ppp from the command line, they
just dial the number and initiate ppp their end, and log in via PAP) then
pppd does not need to be suid, because it is initially started by root.

 - Matt



From christian at amnet.net.au  Thu Sep  7 13:03:14 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:03:14 +0800
Subject: [plug] sr_mod
In-Reply-To: <OF9093CCFE.37A5B94E-ON48256953.0018D5B1@erggroup.com>; from bburns@erggroup.com on Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 12:34:54PM +0800
References: <OF9093CCFE.37A5B94E-ON48256953.0018D5B1@erggroup.com>
Message-ID: <20000907130314.Q1303@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 12:34:54PM +0800, bburns at erggroup.com wrote:
 
> Yep - still trying to get the CD Writer going...
> 
> > Selecting "SCSI CD-ROM Support" as a module in the kernel config, and
> > running "make modules;make modules_install;depmod -a" should install that
> > module in the correct location, and update the dependency database so
> > modprobe should work after that - providing the kernel you are currently
> > running was compiled from the local machine.
> 
> I don't know ANYTHING about a kernel config...  Can't I just use insmod?

insmod INSERTS the module into the running kernel but if you don't have
the module to begin with then that's not possible.  You need to build
the model from the kernel sources.

> > The module should be installed in /lib/modules/<kernel version>/scsi/
> 
> Well - its not on my machine, so I guess I need the source... Anyone know
> where I can the source from?

ftp.au.kernel.org for memory (amongst others).


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Thu Sep  7 13:09:44 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:09:44 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] sr_mod
In-Reply-To: <OF9093CCFE.37A5B94E-ON48256953.0018D5B1@erggroup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907130748.16280A-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000 bburns at erggroup.com wrote:

> Well - its not on my machine, so I guess I need the source... Anyone know
> where I can the source from?

As Christian mentioned, ftp.au.kernel.org will have it, or if you're
connected to the WAIX, ftp.uwa.edu.au would be closer & faster.

I also strongly suggest you read some documentation on building &
installing kernels (such as the Kernel HOWTO) before you do so, because
it's not an easy thing to the uninitiated.

 - Matt



From brad at seme.com.au  Thu Sep  7 13:48:00 2000
From: brad at seme.com.au (Brad Campbell)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 13:48:00 +0800
Subject: [plug] 4 Port serial cards, mgetty etc etc
References: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1773@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <39B72C10.554BD96C@seme.com.au>

"Earnshaw, Mike" wrote:
> 
> Matt, thanks!
> 
> Lesson learn't = not all distro's same ;) Thanks for the explaination on
> tty, so easy when explained to you.

The other thing to check, which caught me with an ISA 4 port, and a PCMCIA
4 port, is the kernel must be set up to use multiple ports.. or else even
if the devices exist, it will not initialise any device past ttyS3.
I had to re-compile my kernel to get the 4th port to work..
ie 1 onboard port, and 4 pcmcia ports.
Same when I put the ISA 4 port card in.. it would only set up a maximum of
4 ports.. meaning with the 2 onboard, and the 4 port card, I had 2 ports I 
could not use until I rebuilt the kernel.

Brad..


From robd at anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au  Thu Sep  7 21:32:54 2000
From: robd at anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au (Rob Dunne)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 21:32:54 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] more network problems
Message-ID: <14775.39174.142436.943269@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au>


Hi list,
 
     my ppp connection is stuffed again. I am at work at the moment
byt the connection is still up.
I can ping robertd-ppp but can not telnet (or ssh) to it. 
>From home I get exactly the same behavior. 

All I have changed since the machine was fixed at the plug meeting 
are
1)  the local name (lycra <- gateway)
2)  I installed ssh

    Have I stuffed something?
How can I find out more information about the problem?

--------------ping works
leeuwin >/usr/sbin/ping -s robertd-ppp
PING robertd-ppp.wa.cmis.CSIRO.AU: 56 data bytes
64 bytes from robertd-ppp.wa.cmis.CSIRO.AU (130.116.67.13): icmp_seq=0. 
                                                     time=166. ms
64 bytes from robertd-ppp.wa.cmis.CSIRO.AU (130.116.67.13): icmp_seq=1. 
                                               time=171. ms

----------------------telent doesnt------------------
leeuwin >telnet robertd-ppp
Trying 130.116.67.13...
Connected to robertd-ppp.wa.cmis.CSIRO.AU.
Escape character is '^]'.
----------------------ssh doesnt------------------
leeuwin >ssh -l dunne robertd-ppp

--------------------------------------------------------------------
leeuwin >/usr/sbin/traceroute robertd-ppp
traceroute to robertd-ppp.wa.cmis.CSIRO.AU (130.116.67.13), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
 1  wa.gw.CSIRO.AU (130.116.35.254)  1.308 ms  1.315 ms  1.071 ms
 2  annex.floreat.CSIRO.AU (130.116.9.11)  1.829 ms  1.751 ms  1.623 ms
 3  robertd-ppp (130.116.67.13)  157.046 ms  144.637 ms  147.927 ms
---------------------------------------------------------------------

					bye 
					    rob

-- 
 Rob Dunne         Fax: +61 8 9333 6121     Tel: +61 8 9333 6178
 CSIRO Mathematical and Information Sciences
 Leeuwin Centre for Earth Sensing Technologies 
 Private Bag 5, P.O., Wembley, Western Australia, 6013         
 http://matilda.vu.edu.au/~dunne  Email: Robert.Dunne at cmis.csiro.au

        Java has certainly revolutionized marketing and litigation.



From earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com  Thu Sep  7 15:09:26 2000
From: earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com (Earnshaw, Mike)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:09:26 +0800 
Subject: [plug] rc.local et al
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1776@EXCHANGE>

List,

I am embarassed to ask this one. In what order do the scripts execute on
startup? I have had to create an rc.serial in /etc/rc.d to issue several
setserial commands, I have changed the perms to 755. Had a quick search
throuch the other rc.* files using pico and ^W to se if I could see
where to call rc.serial from, but failed.

Thanks,

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Mike Earnshaw      | "Nothing is foolproof to a      | e-mail in header
 Computer Systems  |  sufficiently talented fool"    | Tel : +61 8 9256
1099
  Support          |                     Anon.       | Fax : +61 8 9256
1199
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
   ,-._|\    Union Switch & signal
  /      \   24 Bannick Court
  *_.--._/   Canning Vale, WA 6155, Western Australia
        v 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----


From earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com  Thu Sep  7 15:11:41 2000
From: earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com (Earnshaw, Mike)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:11:41 +0800 
Subject: [plug] rc.serial
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1777@EXCHANGE>

Real embarassed now .. its called from rc.sysinit ... sorry everyone

Thanks,

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Mike Earnshaw      | "Nothing is foolproof to a      | e-mail in header
 Computer Systems  |  sufficiently talented fool"    | Tel : +61 8 9256
1099
  Support          |                     Anon.       | Fax : +61 8 9256
1199
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
   ,-._|\    Union Switch & signal
  /      \   24 Bannick Court
  *_.--._/   Canning Vale, WA 6155, Western Australia
        v 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----


From myk at golden.wattle.id.au  Thu Sep  7 15:27:22 2000
From: myk at golden.wattle.id.au (Mike Holland)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:27:22 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] rc.local et al
In-Reply-To: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1776@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009071520110.4855-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Earnshaw, Mike wrote:

> I am embarassed to ask this one. 

There are no stupip questions, just ... :)

> In what order do the scripts execute on startup?

One of the nice things about unices, is that so much is done from scripts,
including the startup. So it is easy to follow. The first process is init,
which is controlled by /etc/inittab. You can read the commands there and
follow the scripts it calls to see exactly what happens. This is an
"interesting" exercise for anyone wanting to truly learn Linux.

  On redhat, the next-level scripts are /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit (worth
reading), and /etc/rc.d/rc which runs all the /etc/rc.d/rc?.d/* scripts.


-- 
Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
                          --==--



From dsbrown at cyllene.uwa.edu.au  Thu Sep  7 15:48:57 2000
From: dsbrown at cyllene.uwa.edu.au (Denis Brown)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 15:48:57 +0800
Subject: [plug] rc.serial
In-Reply-To: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1777@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000907152857.00e233e0@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>

Hello, Mike.

Not sure the embarrassment is called for to any great extent :-)   An 
on-line resource I've found handy is the Linux System Administrator's Guide 
(Lars Wirzenius, Joanna Oja) http://www.linux.org.au/LDP/LDP/sag/book1.html 
but I think there is/was a later version.  A number of Linux paper volumes 
have been mentioned on this list in the past as good places to discover 
answers to questions at this level.  I'm hoping that others may be able to 
list more url's which will assist me and others who are starting out in 
this area.

Cheers,
Denis



From buddrige at q-net.net.au  Thu Sep  7 16:16:10 2000
From: buddrige at q-net.net.au (David Buddrige)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:16:10 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] mounting floppy disk
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907161408.10771A-100000@twoup.q-net.net.au>

Hi all,

I have a floppy disk formatted under windows which I want to mount at
/mnt/floppy so as to transfer a document (staroffice) from my linux box to
a windows machine.

However, when I run the command:

	mount -t msdos /dev/fd0 /mnt/floppy

it says that the kernel does not have support for msdos filesystems.  I am
running a stock redhat 6.2 kernel... any ideas on what the correct file
system would be?  I have tried fat16, fat32, but no success thus far.

thanks heaps

David.



From c.norwood at ecu.edu.au  Thu Sep  7 16:26:46 2000
From: c.norwood at ecu.edu.au (Chris Norwood)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:26:46 +0800
Subject: [plug] mounting floppy disk
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907161408.10771A-100000@twoup.q-net.net.au>
Message-ID: <00f701c018a5$5cad36e0$abd3e68b@d8a3i2>

Hi,

I use RH 6.2.
try editing /etc/fstab

/dev/fd0 /mnt/floppy auto defaults,noauto 0 0

Chris
> 



From chris at mnet.com.au  Thu Sep  7 16:35:27 2000
From: chris at mnet.com.au (Christopher Darby)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:35:27 +0800
Subject: [plug] mounting floppy disk
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907161408.10771A-100000@twoup.q-net.net.au>
Message-ID: <MNEBIIBPLEJEOIIEJMIKCEHDCAAA.chris@mnet.com.au>

try
mount -t vfat /dev/fd0 /mnt/floppy

-----Original Message-----
From: David Buddrige [mailto:buddrige at q-net.net.au]
Sent: Thursday, 7 September 2000 4:16 PM
To: plug at plug.linux.org.au
Subject: [plug] mounting floppy disk


Hi all,

I have a floppy disk formatted under windows which I want to mount at
/mnt/floppy so as to transfer a document (staroffice) from my linux box to
a windows machine.

However, when I run the command:

	mount -t msdos /dev/fd0 /mnt/floppy

it says that the kernel does not have support for msdos filesystems.  I am
running a stock redhat 6.2 kernel... any ideas on what the correct file
system would be?  I have tried fat16, fat32, but no success thus far.

thanks heaps

David.



From zombie at wasp.net.au  Thu Sep  7 16:36:21 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:36:21 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] mounting floppy disk
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907161408.10771A-100000@twoup.q-net.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907163518.16280C-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, David Buddrige wrote:

> it says that the kernel does not have support for msdos filesystems.

cat /proc/filesystems to see what filesystems your kernel support.
try "modprobe msdos" or "modprobe vfat" and see if it will add support for
either of those.
then try the mount command with either -t msdos or -t vfat.

vfat is preferable because it will use windows' long filenames.

 - Matt



From myk at golden.wattle.id.au  Thu Sep  7 16:36:36 2000
From: myk at golden.wattle.id.au (Mike Holland)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:36:36 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] mounting floppy disk
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907161408.10771A-100000@twoup.q-net.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009071634320.5039-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, David Buddrige wrote:

> it says that the kernel does not have support for msdos filesystems.  I am

David,
try 'vfat' or auto. And an /etc/fstab entry to save typing.

Also, I prefer using mtools (mcopy etc) for that kind of thing. You may
find it easier. Others may disagree.


-- 
Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
                          --==--



From buddrige at q-net.net.au  Thu Sep  7 16:39:52 2000
From: buddrige at q-net.net.au (David Buddrige)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:39:52 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] mounting floppy disk
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000907163822.10868A-100000@twoup.q-net.net.au>

Thanks heaps for the suggestions... 

will give it a shot tonight... 8-)

David.



From alanh at wn.com.au  Thu Sep  7 19:30:24 2000
From: alanh at wn.com.au (alan howard)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 19:30:24 +0800
Subject: [plug] GDI printers
In-Reply-To: <39B6DCC2.6D5B489F@brooks.smileys.net>
References: <39B620CE.E8BEC5C4@brooks.smileys.net> <39B668E5.7B2BDB12@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B6DCC2.6D5B489F@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <00090719370400.00345@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 07 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:
> Bret Busby wrote:
> > Leon Brooks wrote:
> >> this
> >> or another GDI driver may work for your printer. Weeeek! Weeeek! Weeeeek! Go on,
> >> be a guinea pig!
> 
> > I hope it does not
> > destroy the printer (it is not mine - I just look after it, and, use
> > it).
> 
> That would be quite an achievement, given that things like motors and power
> supplies are not under program control.

doesn't it? .  I thought the program and the internal software on the printers
microcontroller determined the action of various motors etc. The power supply
should be fairly safe except if a motor is driven to one of the limmits in the
mechanism and draws excess current.

regards 
alan howard


From dagobah at mad.scientist.com  Thu Sep  7 19:54:52 2000
From: dagobah at mad.scientist.com (Bernard Blackham)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 19:54:52 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Installation of Debian 2.2
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009071948110.9302-100000@dagobah.home>

Hi all,

I'm relatively new to Linux (about a year's experience and most of it with
Red Hat 6.0). I comfortably got along with Red Hat on my server machine
for the past year and I'm moving to install Debian 2.2 onto my own
personal machine. I've been told it's a lot harder (as I've come to find)
and a couple of questions have come up (and I'm sure there'll be more
soon):

1) I am trying to install VMware (30-day trial) on this machine and it
detects that my development sources are for the 2.2.15 kernel and not the
2.2.17 kernel I have with Debian. This was a clean install of Debian 2.2,
not an upgrade. The linux/version.h contains the kernel id string of
2.2.15. Should this be 2.2.17 or is there something else I need to
install?

2) A lot of documentation also seems to be missing from my installation,
is it included in one of the .deb packages on my 3-cd set?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Bernard.

-- 
 Bernard Blackham
 dagobah at mad.scientist.com



From nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au  Thu Sep  7 20:37:28 2000
From: nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Bannon)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 20:37:28 +0800
Subject: [plug] Installation of Debian 2.2
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009071948110.9302-100000@dagobah.home>; from dagobah@mad.scientist.com on Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:54:52PM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009071948110.9302-100000@dagobah.home>
Message-ID: <20000907203728.A1960@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>

On Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:54:52PM +0800, Bernard Blackham wrote:
[...]
> for the past year and I'm moving to install Debian 2.2 onto my own
> personal machine. I've been told it's a lot harder (as I've come to find)
> and a couple of questions have come up (and I'm sure there'll be more
> soon):

People say that, but for at least anyone that's already had a
Linux box up and running, I can't see how its so bad. Every question
asked has a reason and genuine alteratives - I can't really think of
much that should be skipped.

> 1) I am trying to install VMware (30-day trial) on this machine and it
> detects that my development sources are for the 2.2.15 kernel and not the
> 2.2.17 kernel I have with Debian. This was a clean install of Debian 2.2,
> not an upgrade. The linux/version.h contains the kernel id string of
> 2.2.15. Should this be 2.2.17 or is there something else I need to
> install?

"apt-get install kernel-headers-2.2.17" might be what you need there.

> 2) A lot of documentation also seems to be missing from my installation,
> is it included in one of the .deb packages on my 3-cd set?
[...]

"apt-get install manpages-dev doc-linux-text" might give you two of
the larger chunks you might be expecting. Pretty much every package
will have something in /usr/share/doc/packagename, and some of the
larger programs have a separate documentation package - postgresql-doc
or perl-5.005-doc for example.

Anything in particular you were after?

Nick.

-- 
  Nick Bannon  | "I made this letter longer than usual because
nick at it.net.au | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep  7 21:01:56 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 21:01:56 +0800
Subject: [plug] GDI printers
References: <39B620CE.E8BEC5C4@brooks.smileys.net> <39B668E5.7B2BDB12@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39B6DCC2.6D5B489F@brooks.smileys.net> <00090719370400.00345@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <39B791C4.623EC15D@brooks.smileys.net>

alan howard wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:
>> Bret Busby wrote:
>>> Leon Brooks wrote:
>>>> this
>>>> or another GDI driver may work for your printer. Weeeek! Weeeek! Weeeeek! Go on,
>>>> be a guinea pig!

>>> I hope it does not
>>> destroy the printer (it is not mine - I just look after it, and, use
>>> it).

>> That would be quite an achievement, given that things like motors and power
>> supplies are not under program control.

> doesn't it? .  I thought the program and the internal software on the printers
> microcontroller determined the action of various motors etc. The power supply
> should be fairly safe except if a motor is driven to one of the limmits in the
> mechanism and draws excess current.

This is usually prohibited by hardware (i.e. a switch). Older printers (e.g.
Epson EX-1000) drove the stepper motors by wiggling bits on a port since at the
time this was cheaper than a stepper-controller chip. These could be programmed
to blow up a stepper motor. You could also switch on a pin solenoid in the head
(or all pins) and leave it on, melting down the head. The GDI lasers have no
pins, no "manual" control over steppers.

-- 
People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it is
safer to harrass rich women than motorcycle gangs.


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep  7 21:08:42 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 21:08:42 +0800
Subject: [plug] Flamebait (RMS)
References: <39B649A7.B609A7C1@iinet.net.au> <20000907091215.A5569@portal.lostrealm.com>
Message-ID: <39B7935A.F0D2AA35@brooks.smileys.net>

Leon Blackwell wrote:
> Still, despite not liking a lot of what he says, the world would
> probably be a lot worse off *without* RMS.

Funny, an awful lot of people use words to that effect about RMS... (-:

-- 
A computer without Microsoft and IBM is like chocolate cake without
ketchup and mustard. -- Jonathan Nicholson


From myk at golden.wattle.id.au  Thu Sep  7 21:41:04 2000
From: myk at golden.wattle.id.au (Mike Holland)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 21:41:04 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Flamebait (RMS)
In-Reply-To: <39B7935A.F0D2AA35@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009072135260.5393-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:

> Leon Blackwell wrote:
> > Still, despite not liking a lot of what he says, the world would
> > probably be a lot worse off *without* RMS.
> 
> Funny, an awful lot of people use words to that effect about RMS... (-:

Linux could not have existed without gnu. Without RMS we would all be
using FreeBSD <<shudder>>.
   (Would that have been allowed if gnu/linux didnt exist?)

Sure, RMS pisses everybody off. The "lignux" bit got me. (remember that?)
But he is still God. Lets face it, Linus is a mere mortal in comparison.
If we had to choose one in a deathmatch against Gates, Ellison, Case,
Turner etc for the future of mankind, I'll take Stallman.

-- 
Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
                          --==--



From billk at iinet.net.au  Thu Sep  7 21:46:03 2000
From: billk at iinet.net.au (BillK)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 21:46:03 +0800
Subject: [plug] ESD
Message-ID: <39B79C1B.52029499@iinet.net.au>

Can someone point me to a document (other than on the authors home page
which I have read, and am none the wiser!) on how to use ESD (the
Enlightened Sound Demon).  I wish to use to prevent licq  from stopping
xmms when a message arrives by overlaying the sounds which ESD is
supposed to allow.  However, the homepage documents I have read are not
exactly informative as to how I can do this and all attempts so far have
ended in failure.

BillK


From Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au  Thu Sep  7 23:45:10 2000
From: Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 23:45:10 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web Site
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009060829440.28106-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>
Message-ID: <NDBBKJLCGDKIONEINKJAKEGMCHAA.Jeremy@Malcolm.wattle.id.au>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> ..... Perhaps if time permits the perl script (that asks questions)
> could check the DB and update it as required.  that way people can 
> change their own mailing information.

I wrote a Perl CGI application for managing membership information
for clubs, it's still beta (and not progressing fast!) but maybe some
people on this list might want to knock it into shape for PLUG's use.
 Better than starting from scratch, anyhow. 
ftp://terminus.net.au/unix/perl/dbimem-0.9.tgz

- -- 
Independent consulting solicitor* | _ .__ ._ _    |\/| _.| _ _ |._ _
and technology consultant.**    \_|(/_|(/_| | |\/ |  |(_||(_(_)|| | |
Personal site: http://malcolm.wattle.id.au     /   Finger for GPG key
* http://www.ilaw.com.au ** http://www.terminus.net.au jm at ilaw.com.au

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From billk at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep  8 07:02:42 2000
From: billk at iinet.net.au (BillK)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 07:02:42 +0800
Subject: [plug] pdf files: update
Message-ID: <39B81E92.2BF183CD@iinet.net.au>

Found that xpdf and pdfinfo that come with Mandrake 7.1 handle password
protected files, and better yet it looks like it will print OK - thanks
Christian for the lead.

>From pdfinfo -upw "password" problem_file:

Title:        
How do processes talk to each other 
Author:       Eddie 
Creator:      Microsoft Word 8.0 
Producer:     ?? 
CreationDate: 20000905152903 
ModDate:      20000905153048 
Pages:        15 
Encrypted:    yes (print:yes copy:no) 
Linearized:   yes  

xpdf prints to a standard postscript file viewable by kghostscript and
presumably printable (outa time, will test tonight)

BillK


From steveg at calm.wa.gov.au  Fri Sep  8 08:34:41 2000
From: steveg at calm.wa.gov.au (Steve Grasso)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 08:34:41 +0800
Subject: [plug] Flamebait (RMS)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009072135260.5393-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009072135260.5393-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>
Message-ID: <00090808423400.12669@pluto.calm.wa.gov.au>

On Thu, 07 Sep 2000, Mike Holland wrote:
[snipppity]
> Linux could not have existed without gnu. Without RMS we would all be
> using FreeBSD <<shudder>>.

I hear your point, but what's with the shudder Mike? Nothing wrong with FreeBSD
-- it gives people who dislike noisy families an opportunity to live with
their urbane uncle, instead of being forced back to Fagan

:-)
Steve


From brad at seme.com.au  Fri Sep  8 12:47:54 2000
From: brad at seme.com.au (Brad Campbell)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 12:47:54 +0800
Subject: [plug] From the I have too much time dept....
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009072135260.5393-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au> <00090808423400.12669@pluto.calm.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <39B86F7A.A317E982@seme.com.au>

PuTTY runs nicely under wine :p)
So does winzip 8..


-- 
Brad....
                   /"\
Save the Forrests  \ /     ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
Burn a Greenie.     X      AGAINST HTML MAIL
                   / \


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Fri Sep  8 13:04:52 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 13:04:52 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] From the I have too much time dept....
In-Reply-To: <39B86F7A.A317E982@seme.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000908130355.16280D-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Fri, 8 Sep 2000, Brad Campbell wrote:

> PuTTY runs nicely under wine :p)

You are a sad, sad puppy.

 - Matt



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Fri Sep  8 13:23:49 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 13:23:49 +0800
Subject: [plug] From the I have too much time dept....
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000908130355.16280D-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B877E5.B126D6CC@brooks.smileys.net>

Matt Kemner wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Sep 2000, Brad Campbell wrote:
>> PuTTY runs nicely under wine :p)

> You are a sad, sad puppy.

It could be worse, he could be telnetting to localhost using WINE and then
sshing from there.

-- 
"The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth."
    -- George Orwell, 1984


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Fri Sep  8 13:25:54 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 13:25:54 +0800
Subject: [plug] Words at 20 paces
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009072135260.5393-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>
Message-ID: <39B87862.5205E289@brooks.smileys.net>

Mike Holland wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:
>> Leon Blackwell wrote:
>>> Still, despite not liking a lot of what he says, the world would
>>> probably be a lot worse off *without* RMS.

>> Funny, an awful lot of people use words to that effect about RMS... (-:

> If we had to choose one in a deathmatch against Gates, Ellison, Case,
> Turner etc for the future of mankind, I'll take Stallman.

I think "hard-nosed" is the phrase you're looking for.

-- 
Please help me. When you download files on hacking and the file extension
is "c" how do you use it? -- antons at iafrica.com, in alt.hackers.malicious


From michael.j.hunt at usa.net  Fri Sep  8 04:42:27 2000
From: michael.j.hunt at usa.net (Michael Hunt)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 22:42:27 +0200
Subject: [plug] 4 Port serial cards, mgetty etc etc
In-Reply-To: <39B72C10.554BD96C@seme.com.au>
Message-ID: <EKEEKLNPPABOMKNNPGMKIEIDCIAA.michael.j.hunt@usa.net>

> The other thing to check, which caught me with an ISA 4 port, and a PCMCIA
> 4 port, is the kernel must be set up to use multiple ports.. or else even
> if the devices exist, it will not initialise any device past ttyS3.
> I had to re-compile my kernel to get the 4th port to work..
> ie 1 onboard port, and 4 pcmcia ports.
> Same when I put the ISA 4 port card in.. it would only set up a maximum of
> 4 ports.. meaning with the 2 onboard, and the 4 port card, I had
> 2 ports I
> could not use until I rebuilt the kernel.

So what use did you put a 4 port pcmcia serial card to. I did not now that
even such a thing existed !!!

Michael Hunt



From michael.j.hunt at usa.net  Fri Sep  8 05:13:02 2000
From: michael.j.hunt at usa.net (Michael Hunt)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 23:13:02 +0200
Subject: [plug] Mail Digest and PuTTY echo.
Message-ID: <EKEEKLNPPABOMKNNPGMKAEIECIAA.michael.j.hunt@usa.net>

Hi ya all,

Two quick questions one to Matt as list maintainer and one to the whole
list.

1. Matt is it possible to get a daily digest of all the messages on a the
plug list. My connection chokes at various times of the day here in Africa
and I end up with multiple copies of the plug mail messages in my plug
folder because my connection dropped off or timed out. If I got the list
messages in digest form I could download at a better time and one that is
more economical. (Net connectivity in Niger comes in at about $4 an hour off
peak and $8 an hour peak, with the whole of the country being serviced by
192k satellite link that during peak periods crawls like a turtle. The local
agrimet (Niger's equivalent of the CSIRO) runs its whole operations off a
28.8k leased line and it has 110 computers providing 9 countries in West
Africa with an early warning system of famine, plague controls, weather
information etc. So you can see what I am up against if an organization with
USAID funding can only get this). Mayne the digest in a sipped format to
????

2. Does anyone know of a way to turn local echo on with the PuTTY client ? I
am using it to connect to a pop3 server port and delete large messages from
mail accounts that I don't want to download. It really helps when you can
see what you are typing. At present I have had to resort to using the
Microsoft telnet client in order to see what I am typing.

Michael Hunt

P.S. If anyone know of a complete list of POP3 commands I would appreciate a
link or a copy. I'm part curly after a way to view the headers before I
delete the messages.



From zombie at wasp.net.au  Fri Sep  8 14:13:36 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 14:13:36 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Mail Digest and PuTTY echo.
In-Reply-To: <EKEEKLNPPABOMKNNPGMKAEIECIAA.michael.j.hunt@usa.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000908140622.16280F-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Michael Hunt wrote:

> 1. Matt is it possible to get a daily digest of all the messages on a the
> plug list.

Yes, you can send the message "subscribe" to plug-digest-request and
reply the message you get, but you will also need to send me a seperate
email so I can add you to the list of email addresses that are allowed to
post to the main plug list.

> messages in digest form I could download at a better time

But can't you connect up once a day and download them all at once
from your mailserver anyway?

> am using it to connect to a pop3 server port and delete large messages from
> mail accounts that I don't want to download. It really helps when you can
> see what you are typing.

Doesn't the remote POP server echo what you type? I thought most POP
servers did...

> P.S. If anyone know of a complete list of POP3 commands I would appreciate a
> link or a copy.

They are all in RFC 1939, available at your local friendly RFC mirror.

I don't know of any in Niger, but for Perthites the closest would be
ftp://typhaon.ucs.uwa.edu.au/pub/rfc/rfc1939.txt.gz

> I'm part curly after a way to view the headers before I
> delete the messages.

TOP <message number> <number of lines of the body you want to see>

eg "TOP 1 0" if you want to see only the headers of the first message.
"TOP 28 5" if you want headers and the first 5 lines of msg 28.

 - Matt



From brad at seme.com.au  Fri Sep  8 14:13:48 2000
From: brad at seme.com.au (Brad Campbell)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 14:13:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] 4 Port serial cards, mgetty etc etc
References: <EKEEKLNPPABOMKNNPGMKIEIDCIAA.michael.j.hunt@usa.net>
Message-ID: <39B8839C.361E66C1@seme.com.au>

Michael Hunt wrote:

> So what use did you put a 4 port pcmcia serial card to. I did not now that
> even such a thing existed !!!
> 
> Michael Hunt

Yeah, 4 port Quatech card. I just grepped the pcmcia sources for a 4 port card
that was supported, and contacted the manufacturer to get one. Sold by Industrial
Computer Source in Melb.
Plugged it in and bingo, had ttyS16..ttyS19 automaticly.
And the system will support 2 of them, so you could have 8 ports on a laptop..
Convinent.. no ?

-- 
Brad....
                   /"\
Save the Forrests  \ /     ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
Burn a Greenie.     X      AGAINST HTML MAIL
                   / \


From brad at seme.com.au  Fri Sep  8 14:34:07 2000
From: brad at seme.com.au (Brad Campbell)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 14:34:07 +0800
Subject: [plug] 4 Port serial cards, mgetty etc etc
References: <EKEEKLNPPABOMKNNPGMKIEIDCIAA.michael.j.hunt@usa.net> <39B8839C.361E66C1@seme.com.au>
Message-ID: <39B8885F.132C1D93@seme.com.au>

Brad Campbell wrote:
> 
> Michael Hunt wrote:
> 
> > So what use did you put a 4 port pcmcia serial card to. I did not now that
> > even such a thing existed !!!
> >
> > Michael Hunt
> 
> Yeah, 4 port Quatech card. I just grepped the pcmcia sources for a 4 port card
> that was supported, and contacted the manufacturer to get one. Sold by Industrial
> Computer Source in Melb.
> Plugged it in and bingo, had ttyS16..ttyS19 automaticly.
> And the system will support 2 of them, so you could have 8 ports on a laptop..
> Convinent.. no ?

Sorry, just realised I did not answer the question..
I'm doing some development work on an Comms server for a security system, that
needs to talk to about 6 devices at once, thus the need for LOTS of com ports
on my laptop. I can't be stuffed lugging a pc around to do development/testing.

-- 
Brad....
                   /"\
Save the Forrests  \ /     ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
Burn a Greenie.     X      AGAINST HTML MAIL
                   / \


From peregrin at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep  8 14:46:04 2000
From: peregrin at iinet.net.au (Nigel Duff)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 14:46:04 +0800
Subject: [plug] ESD
In-Reply-To: <39B79C1B.52029499@iinet.net.au>; from BillK on Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 09:46:03PM +0800
References: <39B79C1B.52029499@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000908144604.A8773@iinet.net.au>

On Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 09:46:03PM +0800, BillK wrote:

> Can someone point me to a document (other than on the authors home page
> which I have read, and am none the wiser!) on how to use ESD (the
> Enlightened Sound Demon).  I wish to use to prevent licq  from stopping
> xmms when a message arrives by overlaying the sounds which ESD is
> supposed to allow.  However, the homepage documents I have read are not
> exactly informative as to how I can do this and all attempts so far have
> ended in failure.
> 
 Hi Bill,
 	I haven't found much decent documentation on esd or even E. For
licq, under Options -> OnEvent i have the command set to esdplay. This
is esd's version of the play command. If you want your programs to have
unfettered access to /dev/dsp, just start them with esddsp. Eg: in my
menu for netscape (in E) i have "Netscape" NULL exec "esddsp netscape".

HTH

Nigel




From deepblue at smileys.net  Fri Sep  8 16:37:36 2000
From: deepblue at smileys.net (Fred)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 16:37:36 +0800
Subject: [plug] Installfest. 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000908163611.00af1b50@smileys.net>

1. Still need fliers distributed through UWA I can help there.
2. Plus can bring in a RH 6.1 Win98 dual booter with burner if you still
need demo machines.
Fred.



From alanh at wn.com.au  Fri Sep  8 18:43:56 2000
From: alanh at wn.com.au (alan howard)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 18:43:56 +0800
Subject: [plug] GDI printers
In-Reply-To: <39B791C4.623EC15D@brooks.smileys.net>
References: <39B620CE.E8BEC5C4@brooks.smileys.net> <00090719370400.00345@localhost.localdomain> <39B791C4.623EC15D@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <00090818573200.00338@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 07 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:

> 
> > doesn't it? .  I thought the program and the internal software on the printers
> > microcontroller determined the action of various motors etc. The power supply
> > should be fairly safe except if a motor is driven to one of the limmits in the
> > mechanism and draws excess current.
> 
> This is usually prohibited by hardware (i.e. a switch). Older printers (e.g.
> Epson EX-1000) drove the stepper motors by wiggling bits on a port since at the
> time this was cheaper than a stepper-controller chip. These could be programmed
> to blow up a stepper motor. You could also switch on a pin solenoid in the head
> (or all pins) and leave it on, melting down the head. The GDI lasers have no
> pins, no "manual" control over steppers.

possibly, I have a old panasonic 9 pin dot matrix  ( not currently used) that
only can detect the print head home position, and as such would try to go to
the extreme right ( and beyond) when printing on some software with resulting
grones from the mechanism and motor. On this subject CD mechanisms also only
have a switch only on the home position ( TOC position) with no switch on the
outer position. If you get a faulty laser with either the E or F photo diode
faulty the tracking error signal can rise enough to make the transverse( sled)
servo drive the laser beyond the outer track position.

regards
alan howard


From squirrel at emerge.net.au  Sat Sep  9 12:26:05 2000
From: squirrel at emerge.net.au (Robert Andrews)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 21:26:05 -0700
Subject: [plug] IPCHAINS
Message-ID: <000501c01a16$13a8b4c0$0201a8c0@peter>

Hi all I am trying to get Microsoft Netmeeting to work on my Win98 comp Via
my Linux server
I have Redhat 6.1
I think the Kernal version is 2.2.12
ipchains 1.3.9, 17-Mar-1999

The chain rule I am trying to implement is from
http://www.tsmservices.com/masq/detailform.php3?132
and is as follows

Microsoft NetMeeting 2.0

       Application:
                         Microsoft NetMeeting 2.0
       Submitted by:
                         Jim Valera
       Kernel:
                         2.0.30
       Modules:
       IPChains:
                         Primary TCP connections:
                         This will allow what microsoft calls the 'Primary
TCPConnections' to work. This
                         will allow such features as: applicationsharing,
whiteboard, chat, file transfer, and
                         directory lookups.
                         ipmasqadm autofw -A -r tcp 389 389
                         ipmasqadm autofw -A -r tcp 522 522
                         ipmasqadm autofw -A -r tcp 1503 1503
                         ipmasqadm autofw -A -r tcp 1720 1720
                         ipmasqadm autofw -A -r tcp 1731 1731
                         You can make only outgoing calls. I have not tried
incomming calls but itmay
                         work if you have previously connected to the same
user.
                         Secondary TCP/UDP connections:
                         This will allow what microsoft calls the 'Secondary
TCP and UDPConnections' to
                         work. This will allow such features as: audio and
videoconferencing using the
                         H.323 protocol.
                         ipmasqadm autofw -A -r tcp 1024 65535ipmasqadm
autofw -A -r udp 1024
                         65535

However ipchains gives an error that basicly says to check the help file
when I try to implement the commands in my rc.firewall script
I have change the lines below to read as follows but it made no diff
? do I have the wrong ipchains version or kernal version
? or is there a typo

/sbin/ipchains -ipmasqadm autofw -A -r tcp 389 389
#/sbin/ipchains -ipmasqadm autofw -A -r tcp 522 522
#/sbin/ipchains -ipmasqadm autofw -A -r tcp 1503 1503
#/sbin/ipchains -ipmasqadm autofw -A -r tcp 1720 1720
#/sbin/ipchains -ipmasqadm autofw -A -r tcp 1731 1731

Regards Bob Andrews




From zombie at wasp.net.au  Sat Sep  9 00:48:24 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 00:48:24 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] IPCHAINS
In-Reply-To: <000501c01a16$13a8b4c0$0201a8c0@peter>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000909004016.16280G-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Fri, 8 Sep 2000, Robert Andrews wrote:

> I think the Kernal version is 2.2.12

>        Kernel:
>                          2.0.30

The commands were written for the 2.0 series kernel, which used a totally
different firewalling scheme than the 2.2 series kernel, so the commands
may not work exactly as specified.
However ipmasqadm is used in 2.2 so you may be in luck

>                          ipmasqadm autofw -A -r tcp 389 389
>                          ipmasqadm autofw -A -r tcp 522 522

> 
> /sbin/ipchains -ipmasqadm autofw -A -r tcp 389 389

Also "ipmasqadm" is a command in it's own right, it is not a parameter to
ipchains.

Try running "ipmasqadm autofw -A -r tcp 389 389" from the command line
(and the other commands you listed)

If it comes up with "command not found" you may need to install another
rpm containing ipmasqadm

 - Matt



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Sat Sep  9 09:07:40 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 09:07:40 +0800
Subject: [plug] APC September 2000
Message-ID: <39B98D5C.8F03F790@clearsol.iinet.net.au>


As I don't remember seeing any reference to it yet, on the list, I
wonder whether anyone has seen the Australian Personal Computer
magazine, September 2000 issue, with the APC Handy Linux Reference Card,
and the reviews of the different Linux versions, and, wonder what people
think of both.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From chris at bizzpro.com.au  Sat Sep  9 09:11:37 2000
From: chris at bizzpro.com.au (Chris Crawford)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 09:11:37 +0800
Subject: [plug] APC September 2000
References: <39B98D5C.8F03F790@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39B98E49.859F82E7@bizzpro.com.au>

Its a good idea as one of my staff use's it all the time

Bret Busby wrote:

> As I don't remember seeing any reference to it yet, on the list, I
> wonder whether anyone has seen the Australian Personal Computer
> magazine, September 2000 issue, with the APC Handy Linux Reference Card,
> and the reviews of the different Linux versions, and, wonder what people
> think of both.
>
> --
>
> Bret Busby
>
> ......................................

--
Chris Crawford
IT Manager
Bizzpro
http://www.bizzpro.com.au
ICQ 2835288


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From squirrel at emerge.net.au  Sun Sep 10 06:36:09 2000
From: squirrel at emerge.net.au (Robert Andrews)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 15:36:09 -0700
Subject: [plug] Kernal compile
Message-ID: <000901c01aae$5ab336e0$0201a8c0@peter>

Hi all my question is how do I find out how my Kernal was compiled
i.e how do I find if it was compiled with the following

       CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL=y
       CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE=y
       CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_MOD=y
       CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_IPAUTOFW=y/m
       CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_IPPORTFW=y/m
       CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_MFW=y/m




From zombie at wasp.net.au  Sat Sep  9 16:10:53 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 16:10:53 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Kernal compile
In-Reply-To: <000901c01aae$5ab336e0$0201a8c0@peter>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000909160710.16280H-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Sat, 9 Sep 2000, Robert Andrews wrote:

> Hi all my question is how do I find out how my Kernal was compiled

If you got your kernel with your distro, check out the documentation that
came with your kernel package, or the distribution's website.

>        CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL=y
>        CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE=y
>        CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_MOD=y
>        CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_IPAUTOFW=y/m
>        CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_IPPORTFW=y/m
>        CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_MFW=y/m

You could also try running the appropriate commands and seeing if they
work.
If they come up with error messages such as "could not open
/proc/net/ip_masquerade" then the kernel has not been configured with
ip_masquerade. If it can't open /proc/net/ip_portfw then you haven't got
portfw - but there may be a module for it in /lib/modules/<version>/ipv4

 - Matt



From ian.kent at pobox.com  Sat Sep  9 17:45:31 2000
From: ian.kent at pobox.com (Raven)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 17:45:31 +0800
Subject: [plug] IPCHAINS
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000909004016.16280G-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39BA06BB.6D86BDDC@pobox.com>



Matt Kemner wrote:

>
> Also "ipmasqadm" is a command in it's own right, it is not a parameter to
> ipchains.
>
> Try running "ipmasqadm autofw -A -r tcp 389 389" from the command line
> (and the other commands you listed)
>
> If it comes up with "command not found" you may need to install another
> rpm containing ipmasqadm
>

Yes. Try the IP Masquerading HOWTO at http://members.home.net/ipmasq/

--
   ,-._|\    Ian Kent
  /      \   Perth, Western Australia
  *_.--._/   E-mail: ian.kent at pobox.com, raven at plug.linux.org.au
        v    Web: http://pobox.com/~ian.kent




From kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au  Sat Sep  9 19:56:03 2000
From: kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au (Shackleton, Kevin)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 19:56:03 +0800 
Subject: [plug] Canon printer
Message-ID: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E309AE@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>

What lpr filter runs a Canon BJC4310 the best? (the BJC600 certainly doesn't
crack it)

K.




From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Sat Sep  9 21:33:05 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 21:33:05 +0800
Subject: [plug] Kernal compile
References: <000901c01aae$5ab336e0$0201a8c0@peter>
Message-ID: <39BA3C11.158F3A9E@brooks.smileys.net>

Robert Andrews wrote:
> Hi all my question is how do I find out how my Kernal was compiled
> i.e how do I find if it was compiled with the following

>        CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL=y
>        CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE=y
>        CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_MOD=y
>        CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_IPAUTOFW=y/m
>        CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_IPPORTFW=y/m
>        CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_MFW=y/m

If it was compiled from source on your machine, look in (ie, less)
/usr/src/linux/.config ; the next best guess is to look in /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ -
mine was compiled with masq but no autofw/portfw and has exactly two *masq*
files there, namely: ip_masq_debug and ip_masq_upd_dloose. If yours is different
you may learn something; also check /proc/net, mine has four files, namely:
ip_fwchains, ip_fwnames, ip_masq, ip_masquerade.

-- 
The Chico, California, City Council enacted a ban on nuclear weapons,
setting a $500 fine for anyone detonating one within city limits.


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Sat Sep  9 21:39:14 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 21:39:14 +0800
Subject: [plug] GDI printers
References: <39B620CE.E8BEC5C4@brooks.smileys.net> <00090719370400.00345@localhost.localdomain> <39B791C4.623EC15D@brooks.smileys.net> <00090818573200.00338@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <39BA3D82.FBAA5828@brooks.smileys.net>

alan howard wrote:
> On this subject CD mechanisms also only
> have a switch only on the home position ( TOC position) with no switch on the
> outer position. If you get a faulty laser with either the E or F photo diode
> faulty the tracking error signal can rise enough to make the transverse( sled)
> servo drive the laser beyond the outer track position.

Aye, that were noothing! When I were a lad, we had Apple ][ EuroPluses, wi' no'
e'en a track zero sensor; poor wee addled laddie'd goo'n bash his head(s)
against the stops 39 times soon 's lookit'yer.

Well, all right, there was actually a track zero sensor in the drive, and a wire
leading all the way back to the controller card, which *did* actually have
enough spare IO bits to sense this... but it wasn't connected. Some clone
controllers _did_ connect it and came with software to patch the system to sense
track 0.

I would be quite surpised if something as dumb as a GDI printer did have a way
of hurting itself, else random Windows, um, peculiarities would've killed a
*lot* of them by now.

-- 
"Actually this is a common misconception...I do *not* in fact have
a lot of time on my hands at all! I just have a very very very very
bad sense of priorities." -- Dean Engelhardt


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Sat Sep  9 21:41:10 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 21:41:10 +0800
Subject: [plug] 4 Port PCMCIA serial cards
References: <EKEEKLNPPABOMKNNPGMKIEIDCIAA.michael.j.hunt@usa.net> <39B8839C.361E66C1@seme.com.au>
Message-ID: <39BA3DF6.57776BB0@brooks.smileys.net>

Brad Campbell wrote:
> Plugged it in and bingo, had ttyS16..ttyS19 automaticly.
> And the system will support 2 of them, so you could have 8 ports on a laptop..
> Convinent.. no ?

For...? (-:

Generally, battery-operated data loggers don't bother supporting an entire
laptop just to collect 8 lines of serial data.

-- 
Five years ago I was on a flight from Vegas to Dallas.  The pilot
said, "Those of you on the right side of the plane can look down
and see Meteor Crater.  One of our flight attendants saw it for
the first time last week, and said 'Wow, it almost hit that road!'"


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Sat Sep  9 22:07:01 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 22:07:01 +0800
Subject: [plug] anyone here work for a public company?
Message-ID: <39BA4405.BA4CF4F2@brooks.smileys.net>

http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-09-08-004-04-OP-LF-MS

Text follows:

MS Office costs businesses about $6 billion each year; with free
alternatives like StarOffice that are now available, continuing to pay for
MS Office constitutes fiscal irresponsibility -- shareholders and employees
should be demanding an end to this colossal waste of corporate funds.

by John Wolley, Linux Today 

Seems like some philosopher once said, "all change is painful." Individuals
and organizations regard any change as carrying a significant cost, and that
cost must be offset by the benefits of making the change, or else there's no
point in doing it -- in the words of a less philosophical observer: "If it
ain't broke, don't fix it!" With software, the cost for a business is
retraining users and support people on the new software, plus the cost of
lost productivity while people are getting up to speed (and if the new
software is from Microsoft, there's often a significant additional cost of
purchasing new hardware, or paying twice for the licensing, but that's a
whole other story).

Individuals and organizations are going to resist changing over from the
proprietary software they're using to open source software until they can
see that the payback (in cost savings and/or functionality) is really big --
clearly big enough to make the pain of the change worthwhile. How close is
open source software to meeting that criterion?

Different people tend to have drastically different opinions on this issue.
But the opinions that ultimately count are those of the IT managers in large
corporations who determine what software those organizations will use --
whatever is adopted for corporate use tends to be adopted by corporate
employees for home use, for obvious reasons. So how can those decision
makers be influenced? What's a really compelling argument for these folks?

Influencing Corporations to Choose Open Source Sooner 

Most large corporations are already using open source software -- notably
Linux, Samba, Apache, Perl, Python -- in selected niches. The selected
niches tend to be "low end" web/file/print server apps and, at the other
extreme, supercomputer clusters. It's a safe bet that all these businesses
are watching open source software's rapid evolution and evaluating broader
uses for it. And it seems likely that eventually these folks will see the
benefits of changing over to open source as being worth the pain for most,
if not all, of the software they use -- eventually.

The problem is that IT managers tend to be a fairly conservative lot when it
comes to changing the software environment that they have to support. As a
number of articles that have been posted on Linux Today have noted, the
"free" as in "free beer" aspect of open source software is not very
important to corporate IT managers. IT managers will choose open source for
other reasons, such as the ability to customize it to suit specific needs,
and the ability to get bugs and security holes fixed quickly, and (as it
evolves ever more rapidly with major assists from IBM, SGI, and quite
literally it seems, "everybody but Microsoft") its eventual all-around
superiority.

But there are two constituencies for whom the "free beer" aspect -- the
savings in licensing costs alone -- could be just important enough to cause
them to clamor for a more rapid changeover to open source. Those are the
corporation's shareholders and the corporation's employees. How's that?

Let's focus on Microsoft Office. MS realizes about $6 billion per year from
Office licensing, most of it paid by corporations. A quick search of the
Linux Today archives failed to turn up specifics on pricing for Office, but
I suspect it works out to somewhere between $50 and $100 per seat per year.
For a corporation with 10,000 employees, that works out to $500,000 to
$1,000,000 per year of money that would otherwise would go into the
company's bottom line.

Do Shareholders Have Enough Incentive? 

Shareholders -- people who own stock in a company -- are critically
concerned with the company's net revenues. In the long run the value of the
stock that a person owns is directly related to the company's net revenues;
in the short run, it's related more to expectations of how the company's net
revenues will change in the future. Other things equal, the shareholder's
stock is definitely worth more if the company can use a free alternative to
MS Office instead of paying that $50-100 per employee per year to Microsoft.

How much more would a particular stock be worth if the company dumped MS
Office? That depends entirely on the relative size of the company's net
revenues vs. that expenditure for MS Office licensing. To keep the
calculations real simple, let's assume a company has 10,000 employees and
pays $1,000,000 per year for them all to use MS Office (assuming $100 per
seat, for simple calculations again).

If the company has $1 billion in net revenues, saving the MS Office
licensing would increase its bottom line by only 0.1% -- not enough to
matter in the stock price. But if the company's net revenues are $100
million, saving the MS Office licensing would increase its bottom line by a
full 1% -- and that is enough to affect the stock price significantly.

What About Employees? 

To the extent that employees have a vested interest in seeing the company's
net revenues expand, their concern with the company's bottom line is similar
to that of the shareholders. The employee's relation to the MS Office
licensing fee is perhaps more direct: that $50-100 could have been added
onto an annual bonus, devoted to expanded benefits, or used to finance an
employee gym, among other possibilities.

And then a lot of employees these days are shareholders in the companies
they work for, either through stock options or employee stock purchase
plans. People in this position share the shareholder's concern with the
company's bottom line.

Why Single Out MS Office? 

If either shareholders or employees are concerned enough about the company's
net revenues to want to take some kind of action to influence the company's
software choices, MS Office is the logical target to go after. Why?

The size of the licensing fees represent substantial potential savings. 
Suitable free alternatives are available, right now, no waiting.  The
changeover involves minimal pain for the gain; they can keep Windows (for
now).

What's the Logical Open Source Replacement? 

Right now, today, StarOffice is probably the best candidate to push. Why? It
runs on Windows, as a local app or off a file server, so companies can run
it exactly like they've been running MS Office. If it's run off a server,
users will just have to wait a little longer for the approximately 13MB
single executable to download, vs. the much smaller component binaries for
Excel, Word, and PowerPoint.

Six to twelve months from now, all bets are off. ThinkFree Office's lean
Java applets may run circles around both StarOffice and MS Office modules,
and its menu structure is more similar to MS Office than StarOffice's is.
Corel could conceivably open source its WordPerfect Office. And Applix would
be a very strong contender if Applixware were ported to Windows.

Any Gotcha's Here? 

None of the free alternatives can match MS Office feature for feature. A lot
of users wouldn't consider this necessarily a bad thing -- in a positive
light, it's a "reduction in bloat" -- but some users would miss some of the
features some of the time.

One of the major features that, as far as I've been able to determine, the
free alternatives can't match is MS Office's (nearly) "infinite
extensibility" -- the ability to completely redefine the menus and toolbars,
both by rearranging stock components and by adding custom macros. I've seen
MS Word in a corporate setting where I couldn't recognize it -- the menu
options consisted mostly of custom data forms specific to that company and
they connected through macros (now Visual Basic for Apps) to MS Exchange.
This type of customization of MS Office, especially where they've taken
advantage of Microsoft's notorious "tight integration" across products,
would boost the cost of a changeover to an open source alternative to the
point where it would probably be prohibitive.

The saving grace? The open source alternatives are getting better and better
at reading and writing the MS Office file formats, so a legacy "island" of
MS Office customizations here and there in a company could probably coexist
with the MS Office replacement everywhere else.

The Bottom Line 

When I first heard that Sun was releasing StarOffice for free, I checked it
out to see how well it compared with MS Office. I had a hard time finding
the commands that I was familiar in MS Office and the online help was no
help at all. And I didn't like the single 13MB executable, with all types of
documents being opened within the single application window. But the basic
functionality was all there and I was able to read and write MS Office files
without any problems. A number of co-workers tried it out with similar
results; only the PowerPoint presentations seemed to routinely need some
manual touch-up when the files went back and forth with MS Office.

That was a year ago. An acceptable free alternative to MS Office has been
available for a year now and the source code is being released under the GPL
in October. How much longer will the shareholders and employees of the
corporations that pay $6 billion per year to license MS Office tolerate this
colossal waste of corporate funds? Would it be tolerated at all if the waste
were more obvious, say they took the money out and burned it in the
corporate parking lot? And since this is an election year in the US, how
much longer will voters tolerate the waste of government funds on MS Office?

If an organization dumps MS Office, slipping Linux under that open source
office suite becomes a whole lot easier.


From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Sat Sep  9 22:39:53 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (Bradley Woodward)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 22:39:53 +0800
Subject: [plug] anyone here work for a public company?
In-Reply-To: <39BA4405.BA4CF4F2@brooks.smileys.net>
References: <39BA4405.BA4CF4F2@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <00090922395300.16981@quag2>

On Sat, 09 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:
> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-09-08-004-04-OP-LF-MS
>
> Text follows:
>
> MS Office costs businesses about $6 billion each year; with free
> alternatives like StarOffice that are now available, continuing to pay for
> MS Office constitutes fiscal irresponsibility -- shareholders and employees
> should be demanding an end to this colossal waste of corporate funds.

There is a difference between the cost of purchace and the cost of owning.  
Office costs a lot to buy, but doesn't cost much to own, because everybody 
coming out of receptionist school and business collage knows how to use the 
damn things.  The training costs are way down, because everybody mimics the 
MS style of applicaton, so everybody basically knows how to navigate the 
menus and toolbars of most new applications.

And from listening to the bean counters at work, $1000 for software is a zero 
consideration.  The main cost for any business is salary, and that's the same 
no matter what operating system is used.

Star Office may cost less to buy, but will cost more to own, because of 
retraining costs, the cost of converting documents and spreadsheets, etc.

There is also the cost of making sure all your business partners can read in 
SO formats when you email them spreadsheets or documents.

I've had this arguement with the people at work, and even with my parents.  
When I organised their new computer, I installed SO on it.  2 weeks later, my 
father had put Office 2000 over the top of it.  He prefered to spend $300 on 
something he knew well, than spend $0.00 on something he'd never seen before. 
The consertative pragmatist in action.




From Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au  Sun Sep 10 08:00:31 2000
From: Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 08:00:31 +0800
Subject: [plug] Canon printer
In-Reply-To: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E309AE@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <NDBBKJLCGDKIONEINKJAGEHFCHAA.Jeremy@Malcolm.wattle.id.au>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> What lpr filter runs a Canon BJC4310 the best? (the BJC600 
> certainly doesn't
> crack it)

I'm using the BJC600 filter with my BJC4310 with no complaints.  What
problem are you having with it?

- -- 
Independent consulting solicitor* | _ .__ ._ _    |\/| _.| _ _ |._ _
and technology consultant.**    \_|(/_|(/_| | |\/ |  |(_||(_(_)|| | |
Personal site: http://malcolm.wattle.id.au     /   Finger for GPG key
* http://www.ilaw.com.au ** http://www.terminus.net.au jm at ilaw.com.au

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Personal Privacy 6.5.3

iQB1AwUBObpb+b/mBljD2JABAQEmbAL/YfWe7Kvwt0OEVXs588wwYMqC83lXGOP3
A2k9xsUra2v8dd0v52T7DqHQLdzMi/229XWfJQffJzgO5FcwRSnRFD5Y18q1my2l
PM4k0Iuei17VZdrzS+cdnqfKLUYieFxM
=MrWj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Sun Sep 10 09:46:03 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 09:46:03 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Office and TCO
References: <39BA4405.BA4CF4F2@brooks.smileys.net> <00090922395300.16981@quag2>
Message-ID: <39BAE7DB.A39841D7@brooks.smileys.net>

Bradley Woodward wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:
>> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-09-08-004-04-OP-LF-MS

>> MS Office costs businesses about $6 billion each year; with free
>> alternatives like StarOffice that are now available, continuing to pay for
>> MS Office constitutes fiscal irresponsibility -- shareholders and employees
>> should be demanding an end to this colossal waste of corporate funds.

> There is a difference between the cost of purchace and the cost of owning.
> Office costs a lot to buy, but doesn't cost much to own, because everybody
> coming out of receptionist school and business collage knows how to use the
> damn things.

Kind of.

> The training costs are way down, because everybody mimics the
> MS style of applicaton, so everybody basically knows how to navigate the
> menus and toolbars of most new applications.

The trouble begins when they start mimicing the spaghettified macro systems that
typically grow up around Microsoft's "tightly integrated" Office systems, and
the parade really starts when users, because these are the _only_ flexible tools
made available to them, begin building "crystal palaces" of interlocked macros
and documents. One day it all becomes too hard, or some vital system template
gets destroyed by a dying app, or somebody upgrades or reinstalls a server over
a weekend and on Monday morning nothing works any more...

Another TCO revelation arrives with the first macro virus.

Still another with the first non-macro virus.

Then instead of minutes here and there finding a function in unfamiliar places,
the users begin losing the odd day or two here and there when Windows
spontaneously trashes itself. And did they save everything to the server? Not on
your life! Remember what happened during the last NT server upgrade...?

> And from listening to the bean counters at work, $1000 for software is a zero
> consideration.  The main cost for any business is salary, and that's the same
> no matter what operating system is used.

Another one is sanity. It might be worth an extra salary for a young Python geek
to keep a hundred office staff from smacking their heads against the monitor
glass as MS-Office-induced mayhem hits critical mass.

> There is also the cost of making sure all your business partners can read in
> SO formats when you email them spreadsheets or documents.

Eh? SO writes MS-Office formats. Not only that, it writes them better than
MS-Office, in the sense that more non-Office apps can read more of SO's
"MS-Office" files than they can of the genuine article.

> I've had this arguement with the people at work, and even with my parents.
> When I organised their new computer, I installed SO on it.  2 weeks later, my
> father had put Office 2000 over the top of it.  He prefered to spend $300 on
> something he knew well, than spend $0.00 on something he'd never seen before.
> The consertative pragmatist in action.

So how did Daddy Dearest start using MS-Office in the first place? I think his
argument is specious in that it doesn't address the real issue.

-- 
There was a young bard of Japan
Whose limericks never would scan
When they said it was so,
He replied, "Yes, I know,
But I always try to fit as many syllables into the last line as I possibly can."


From squirrel at emerge.net.au  Mon Sep 11 03:39:08 2000
From: squirrel at emerge.net.au (Robert Andrews)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:39:08 -0700
Subject: [plug] Kernal compile
References: <000901c01aae$5ab336e0$0201a8c0@peter> <39BA3C11.158F3A9E@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <002801c01b5e$cabc7cc0$0201a8c0@peter>

Hi Leon and thanks for the info I checked my config file and found the
following

# Protocol-specific masquerading support will be built as modules.
CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_MOD=y
CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_IPAUTOFW=m
CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_IPPORTFW=m
CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_MFW=m
CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_VS=y
CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_VS_TAB_BITS=12
CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_VS_RR=m
CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_VS_WRR=m
CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_VS_WLC=m
#
Does this mean that thigs like IPAUTOFW can be loaded as separate modules
without recompileing the kernal.
I have also checked /proc/sys/net/ipv4 and have only 1 file
ip_masq_debug

In   /proc/net I have
ip_fwchains
ip_fwnames
ip_masquerade

Also in /proc/net/ip_masq
there is
app
autofw
icmp
tcp
udp
vs

From kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au  Sun Sep 10 13:59:44 2000
From: kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au (Shackleton, Kevin)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:59:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Office and TCO
Message-ID: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E309CC@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>

I go along with Leon's comments.

Our IT support probably spends 2/3 of total time fixing those curious quirks
you get in Office, like page numbering refusing to do what its told,
pictures automatically re-aligning all over and even off the page and
especially the fatal exception error.  Maybe we can blame the OS for the
last, but it happens less often in 3rd-party apps that obey MS's own rules.

I think a little of that time could be put to learning the slightly
different menu layout.

The training argument is similar to our IT manager's reason for not allowing
any Linux severs on site - we don't know how to drive them.  As if we knew
how to drive NT.

K.



From skribe at amber.com.au  Sun Sep 10 17:12:55 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:12:55 +0800
Subject: [plug] PHP Arrays
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000910170742.00b4f4d0@amber.com.au>

Does anyone know how I can extract a specific element from a string indexed 
array in PHP?

I would have thought that $array_name["element_name"] would do it but it's 
not working for me.  I'm trying to extract out the value from the element 
name.  Any suggestions?

TIA

skribe
	Purity:                           62.0% 			
	Corruption:                    38.0%	
	Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
	Weirdness factor:           31%
	Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
	Medieval Career:            Black Knight	



From jas at whatever.iinet.net.au  Sun Sep 10 20:39:56 2000
From: jas at whatever.iinet.net.au (Jason :))
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 20:39:56 +0800
Subject: [plug] PHP Arrays
In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000910170742.00b4f4d0@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <COEHJKDMHELHODMMOHMGAECPCAAA.jas@whatever.iinet.net.au>

The syntax you are using is right. You can get the value of an element in an
array with the command

$value=$array["element_name"];

check that you have typed the name of the array and the element right. If it
still doesn't work, send us some of the code you are using (ie. code to
insert values into and get data from the array)

hope this helps

Jason :)

-----Original Message-----
From: skribe [mailto:skribe at amber.com.au]
Sent: Sunday, 10 September 2000 5:13 PM
To: plug at plug.linux.org.au
Subject: [plug] PHP Arrays


Does anyone know how I can extract a specific element from a string indexed
array in PHP?

I would have thought that $array_name["element_name"] would do it but it's
not working for me.  I'm trying to extract out the value from the element
name.  Any suggestions?

TIA

skribe
	Purity:                           62.0%
	Corruption:                    38.0%
	Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
	Weirdness factor:           31%
	Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
	Medieval Career:            Black Knight





From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Sun Sep 10 22:06:24 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (Bradley Woodward)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:06:24 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Office and TCO
In-Reply-To: <39BAE7DB.A39841D7@brooks.smileys.net>
References: <39BA4405.BA4CF4F2@brooks.smileys.net> <00090922395300.16981@quag2> <39BAE7DB.A39841D7@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <00091022062400.07751@quag2>

On Sun, 10 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:
> The trouble begins when they start mimicing the spaghettified macro systems
> that typically grow up around Microsoft's "tightly integrated" Office
> systems, and the parade really starts when users, because these are the
> _only_ flexible tools made available to them, begin building "crystal
> palaces" of interlocked macros and documents. One day it all becomes too
> hard, or some vital system template gets destroyed by a dying app, or
> somebody upgrades or reinstalls a server over a weekend and on Monday
> morning nothing works any more...

Intergration is good, to a point.  Being able to cut and paste between any 
application running is very convienent.  Being able to imbed an Excel 
spreadsheet in a VISO drawing which is part of a Power point slide show, and 
then have it automatically email itself at the end is of less use, but 
somebody must want to do it, because I have about 15 meg worth of support 
DLLs to let me.

> Another TCO revelation arrives with the first macro virus.

Well yeah, exactly.  Last time a vbs virus tore through our company, I 
laughed when the accountant bemoned the cost of the clean up operation.

But all they did was spend a small fortune on anti virus software for 
Exchange.  Doesn't stop the viruses of course, but it does make everybody 
feel warm and cozy.  Me?  I make backups on floppy disk and put them in the 
desk drawer.

> Another one is sanity. It might be worth an extra salary for a young Python
> geek to keep a hundred office staff from smacking their heads against the
> monitor glass as MS-Office-induced mayhem hits critical mass.

I must be working for strange organisations then.  The last two have been MS 
places, and I can't remember one Office induced mayhem in 9 years.  The last 
company had around 300 users, and the current one about 50.  I've been using 
Office 2000 since an early beta, and it shapes up pretty well.  It does the 
job.  Spreadsheets calculate, Word documents do the funky formatting things 
and Outlook emails people.  What more do I need it to do?  I can't remember 
the last time it crashed.  Our NT 4 servers get rebooted about once a 3 
weeks/a month or whenever Technology Park decides to cut power to everybody, 
just for a laugh.  It hangs in very well.  The fun part is when you can show 
them how to get rid of two $5000 servers (that's $5000 each) and replace them 
with one box filled with software that costs exactly $0.00.  And if Sendmail 
could do forms, I think I'd have been able to do it too.

Look, I'm not saying it's a good thing.  I don't like Office, and very very 
soon here at home there will be exactly ZERO pieces of Microsoft software on 
my spiffy 20 gig hard disk.  But my company sells into a very consertative 
market (court rooms).  They're so stuck in their ways, a lot use WP 5.1 for 
DOS.  They use Microsoft for no technical or financial reasons at all.  I see 
us trying to break into new markets in the USA, and we run up against huge 
organisations, all controlled by central financial departments and procedures 
for purchace.  I'm sure lots of people on this mailing list are the same - 
they get told what to put on their computers, and have no say in it.  And all 
of the people in the suits are consertaive.  They don't like change.  How 
many times have you heard people say "You'll never get fired for buying IBM." 
 Change means retraining, it means unknown problems.  Upgrades to software 
have to happen in very small chunks, so the users don't get scared away.  
True!  

> Eh? SO writes MS-Office formats. Not only that, it writes them better than
> MS-Office, in the sense that more non-Office apps can read more of SO's
> "MS-Office" files than they can of the genuine article.

Unfortunatly, the arguement of using one piece of software to read and write 
file formats belonging to a different piece of software doesn't work well.  
I've tried this one too.  I even handed the department boss a copy of SO 5.1 
on CD and said try this, it's free, and can 100% do everything you'll ever 
need an office product to do.  Shrug - he uses Lotus products to do work with 
Lotus files, Microsoft products to work with MS products.  The idea of Word 
not being able to write Word documents as well as another word processor is 
just a little hard to take.

I like SO 5.2. I use it, enthuse to other people about it, give it to people 
who want a word processor to use...  But I'm under no illusions as to my 
chances of getting it through the door of my company.

> So how did Daddy Dearest start using MS-Office in the first place? I think
> his argument is specious in that it doesn't address the real issue.

Because somebody installed it on his computer and showed him how to.  Same 
reason I'd say 90% of people do.  To him there is no issue.  He wants to 
write letters to people and type reports.  For what he needs it for, he could 
use Write or even notepad.  No need for a 120 Meg office package at all.   He 
got office because that's what he knew.

I realise what I'm saying will never be accepted on a Linux support mailing 
list, but from where I sit in the bowels of a small organisation selling to a 
market that detests the word Change, the desktop is now and for the forseable 
future owned by Microsoft.

Whatever...  My #1 requirement for a desktop is making sure I can get a 
picture of Gillian Anderson on it.  Everything else is just icing.


From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Sun Sep 10 22:15:14 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (Bradley Woodward)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:15:14 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Office and TCO
In-Reply-To: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E309CC@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
References: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E309CC@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <00091022151401.07751@quag2>

On Sun, 10 Sep 2000, Shackleton, Kevin wrote:
> I go along with Leon's comments.

So do I, believe it or not.  I'm just don't think that dumping a free copy of 
a word processor on somebody's desk is going to make them change to using it.

> Our IT support probably spends 2/3 of total time fixing those curious
> quirks you get in Office, like page numbering refusing to do what its told,
> pictures automatically re-aligning all over and even off the page and
> especially the fatal exception error.  Maybe we can blame the OS for the
> last, but it happens less often in 3rd-party apps that obey MS's own rules.

As I said, we must have very different organisations.  I've been writing 
design documents and reports for years, and haven't lost a single document 
because of a crash in Word.

> The training argument is similar to our IT manager's reason for not
> allowing any Linux severs on site - we don't know how to drive them.  As if
> we knew how to drive NT.

I'm very close to having permission to put a linux box into the department 
for more than just evaluation purposes.  Last week I was with in a nat's 
whisker of getting them to dump Win2000 server, NT IIS 5.0, MSSQL 7.0 and ASP 
web stuff in favor of Linux, mysql, Apache and PHP4.  I even had pricing to 
show them how I was about to save the company damn nearly $10,000 in software 
licensing fees, not to mention hardware costs.  Instead, it's going on a 
third party Solaris box, but damn it I kept my PHP4.

And I think it's there to say.  No damn way I'm spending a month re-writing 
in ASP, and they know it.  :)


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 11 08:20:29 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:20:29 +0800
Subject: [plug] PHP Arrays
References: <4.3.0.20000910170742.00b4f4d0@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <39BC254D.F522C6AE@brooks.smileys.net>

skribe wrote:
> I would have thought that $array_name["element_name"] would do it but it's
> not working for me.  I'm trying to extract out the value from the element
> name.  Any suggestions?

If the element has been added like this:

    array["element"] = value;

...then this should also work:

    value == $array["element"];

As a debugging test, try this:

    while (list (key, value) = each ($array)) {
	echo "array[" . $key . "] = '" . $value . "'<br>\n";
    }

After that, I commend to you the annotated manual at http://www.php.net/manual/

-- 
Traverse: To ski across a slope at an angle; one of two quick and
          simple methods of reducing speed.
Tree:     The other method. -- from "The Skier's Dictionary"


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 11 08:23:35 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:23:35 +0800
Subject: [plug] Kernal compile
References: <000901c01aae$5ab336e0$0201a8c0@peter> <39BA3C11.158F3A9E@brooks.smileys.net> <002801c01b5e$cabc7cc0$0201a8c0@peter>
Message-ID: <39BC2607.3A701A6A@brooks.smileys.net>

Robert Andrews wrote:
> CONFIG_IP_MASQUERADE_IPAUTOFW=m

> Does this mean that thigs like IPAUTOFW can be loaded as separate modules
> without recompileing the kernal.

It certainly looks that way.

> I have also checked /proc/sys/net/ipv4 and have only 1 file
> ip_masq_debug

> In   /proc/net I have
> ip_fwchains
> ip_fwnames
> ip_masquerade

> Also in /proc/net/ip_masq
> there is
> app
> autofw
> icmp
> tcp
> udp
> vs
> From the above information would it be fair to say that I have all the
> required files for  ipmasqadm.

You certainly seem to have everything that ipchains would look for.

> The only thing that is not set is
> CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL=y

This only impacts the number of questions that "make (x|menu|)config" asks you,
has no direct effect on whether code is compiled or not.

> also the lines that have '=y/m' only have the 'm'
> I presume the m is for module and the y is compile or install the module ?.

m is for module, y is for build it directly into the kernel.

-- 
Tech support is a fine art which, once mastered, virtually ensures
loss of sanity. -- Joe Thompson <joe at cstone.net>


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 11 08:35:31 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:35:31 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Office and TCO
References: <39BA4405.BA4CF4F2@brooks.smileys.net> <00090922395300.16981@quag2> <39BAE7DB.A39841D7@brooks.smileys.net> <00091022062400.07751@quag2>
Message-ID: <39BC28D3.59841919@brooks.smileys.net>

Bradley Woodward wrote:
> Being able to imbed an Excel
> spreadsheet in a VISO drawing which is part of a Power point slide show, and
> then have it automatically email itself at the end is of less use, but
> somebody must want to do it, because I have about 15 meg worth of support
> DLLs to let me.

One co I support complained regularly about how slow and erratic their Internet
link was ("It must be the Linux box") until I showed them the MRTG graphs with
little plateaux where an inbound or outbound PowerPoint presentation (as email
attachment) had flooded their ISDN link for three quarters of an hour (20
megabytes) at a time.

>> Another TCO revelation arrives with the first macro virus.

> Well yeah, exactly.  Last time a vbs virus tore through our company, I
> laughed when the accountant bemoned the cost of the clean up operation.

> But all they did was spend a small fortune on anti virus software for
> Exchange.  Doesn't stop the viruses of course, but it does make everybody
> feel warm and cozy.  Me?  I make backups on floppy disk and put them in the
> desk drawer.

Aha! So _that's_ where all of the reinfestations are coming from! (-:

>> Another one is sanity. It might be worth an extra salary for a young Python
>> geek to keep a hundred office staff from smacking their heads against the
>> monitor glass as MS-Office-induced mayhem hits critical mass.

> I must be working for strange organisations then.  The last two have been MS
> places, and I can't remember one Office induced mayhem in 9 years.

Oh, I can. I have a crystal-clear memory of the look on a legal secretary's face
as she realised that a bung Word macro had saved over the top of the last three
days' work, twice (grind those bits into the disk! pound 'em, boys!), and the
last time she'd backed up was... three days beforehand.

> Our NT 4 servers get rebooted about once a 3
> weeks/a month or whenever Technology Park decides to cut power to everybody,
> just for a laugh.

When installing Mandrake or SuSE, set the partition type on anything important
to ReiserFS.

> It hangs in very well.  The fun part is when you can show
> them how to get rid of two $5000 servers (that's $5000 each) and replace them
> with one box filled with software that costs exactly $0.00.  And if Sendmail
> could do forms, I think I'd have been able to do it too.

Uh, what is "do" forms? What kind of forms? I ask this because there are many
tools for processing form-like information out of email streams, and turning a
web-form into email is a one-liner in PHP.

>> Eh? SO writes MS-Office formats. Not only that, it writes them better than
>> MS-Office, in the sense that more non-Office apps can read more of SO's
>> "MS-Office" files than they can of the genuine article.

> The idea of Word
> not being able to write Word documents as well as another word processor is
> just a little hard to take.

Next time Word royally screws up a WP document, try it in SO. If SO can read it,
point this out. Each time.

>> So how did Daddy Dearest start using MS-Office in the first place? I think
>> his argument is specious in that it doesn't address the real issue.

> Because somebody installed it on his computer and showed him how to.  Same
> reason I'd say 90% of people do.

So in essence you're doing the right thing with SO by replicating this process.

> Whatever...  My #1 requirement for a desktop is making sure I can get a
> picture of Gillian Anderson on it.  Everything else is just icing.

I won't ask.

-- 
I wouldn't touch ActiveX with a 10-foot polecat.
I might, however, let one loose on the developers.
    -- cddukes at eos.ncsu.edu


From colin at durbanet.co.za  Mon Sep 11 08:38:00 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:38:00 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Office and TCO
References: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E309CC@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au> <00091022151401.07751@quag2>
Message-ID: <39BC2968.399CE5D6@durbanet.co.za>

For what it's worth, below is another angle on the price you pay when
buying MS etc software originating in the USA instead of using [fF]ree
systems which can be sourced locally for the cost of locally-based
support contracts.

Colin

From:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/business/2000/09/item20000911095908_1.htm

In Melbourne for the World Economic Forum, the Zurich Group's global
chief economist, David Hale, says there is no short-term relief in sight
for the local currency after last week's all-time lows.

"Australia's problem is that while its economy has achieved major
breakthroughs in recent years in boosting productivity and also
utilising technology, [it] has fallen behind in the growth of output in
the IT [information technology] sector," he said.

"You don't have any major IT companies. You've got a $12 billion trade
deficit in this sector and it has given you the tag unfortunately of an
old economy currency."


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 11 08:38:40 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:38:40 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Office and TCO
References: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E309CC@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au> <00091022151401.07751@quag2>
Message-ID: <39BC2990.A2C6FCC3@brooks.smileys.net>

Bradley Woodward wrote:
> I'm very close to having permission to put a linux box into the department
> for more than just evaluation purposes.  Last week I was with in a [g]nat's
> whisker of getting them to dump Win2000 server, NT IIS 5.0, MSSQL 7.0 and ASP
> web stuff in favor of Linux, mysql, Apache and PHP4.  I even had pricing to
> show them how I was about to save the company damn nearly $10,000 in software
> licensing fees, not to mention hardware costs.  Instead, it's going on a
> third party Solaris box, but damn it I kept my PHP4.

Would they be sad if you quietly wedged a little '486 box (say, in a nice thin
Osborne case like the one behind me) under your monitor and plugged it into the
network? One day, a tech may discover to his immense surprise that the
enterprise revolves around a small antiquity on someone's desktop.

-- 
"Try moving off NT easily. You can move from Solaris to HP/UX to
AIX or DEC easily relative to moving off of NT, which is like a
Roach Motel. Once you check in, you never check out."
    -- Scott McNealy, Sun Microsystems


From grogers at greenwood.wa.edu.au  Mon Sep 11 08:45:33 2000
From: grogers at greenwood.wa.edu.au (Gavin Rogers)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:45:33 +0800(WST)
Subject: [plug] MS Office and TCO
Message-ID: <E13YHj3-0007Da-00@joan.greenwood.wa.edu.au>


> Would they be sad if you quietly wedged a little '486 box (say, in a nice thin
> Osborne case like the one behind me) under your monitor and plugged it into
the
> network? One day, a tech may discover to his immense surprise that the
> enterprise revolves around a small antiquity on someone's desktop.

Is that a good thing? I mean, if you leave, and your 486 running linux stays
there doing important things, and it breaks... would you want to be the new IT
person having to deal with an unknown and undocumented 'black box' which appears
to handle, say, everything internet related for the entire company?

Linux systems are good things - but sneaking them in will only cause trouble!


Gavin.





From skribe at amber.com.au  Mon Sep 11 08:53:04 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:53:04 +0800
Subject: [plug] PHP Arrays
In-Reply-To: <COEHJKDMHELHODMMOHMGAECPCAAA.jas@whatever.iinet.net.au>
References: <4.3.0.20000910170742.00b4f4d0@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000911084746.00bf1480@amber.com.au>

At 20:39 10/09/00, Jason :) wrote:
>send us some of the code you are using (ie. code to
>insert values into and get data from the array)
<?
$browser = get_browser();
$value=$browser[browser];
echo "$value";
?>

$value has no value.  It should show up as Netscape as you can see from the 
relevant line from Leon's while code:

browser[browser] = 'Netscape'

I have no idea.

skribe
	Purity:                           62.0% 			
	Corruption:                    38.0%	
	Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
	Weirdness factor:           31%
	Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
	Medieval Career:            Black Knight	



From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Mon Sep 11 09:19:32 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (SweenyTod)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:19:32 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Office and TCO
In-Reply-To: <39BC28D3.59841919@brooks.smileys.net>
References: <39BA4405.BA4CF4F2@brooks.smileys.net>
 <00090922395300.16981@quag2>
 <39BAE7DB.A39841D7@brooks.smileys.net>
 <00091022062400.07751@quag2>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000911085823.0376ee40@mail.sweenytod.com>

At 08:35 AM 11/09/2000, you wrote:

 > It hangs in very well.  The fun part is when you can show
> > them how to get rid of two $5000 servers (that's $5000 each) and 
> replace them
> > with one box filled with software that costs exactly $0.00.  And if 
> Sendmail
> > could do forms, I think I'd have been able to do it too.
>
>Uh, what is "do" forms? What kind of forms? I ask this because there are many
>tools for processing form-like information out of email streams, and turning a
>web-form into email is a one-liner in PHP.

Well, that's a very good question, and I've asked it myself a number of 
times.  Basically, it's an outlook email beaten to look like a standard 
form on a webpage.  It submits the data back to Exchange, which does 
whatever you want with it.  It's nothing clever or special.  The only 
reason it's used is that it is part of Outlook.  I can think of a number of 
alternatives, and don't think it would take more than a day to convert 
every form we use over to a web based thing.  I've asked why we don't 
switch to using Sendmail, and so get rid of an entire server, but, and I 
quote, "Exchange is the company standard."  And that quote is at the heart 
of what I've been saying.  It's there, it's working, and they don't want to 
change because after all this effort and expense, they want to get their 
money worth out of it.

> > The idea of Word
> > not being able to write Word documents as well as another word processor is
> > just a little hard to take.
>
>Next time Word royally screws up a WP document, try it in SO. If SO can 
>read it,
>point this out. Each time.

Ah, I see.  SO's import filters are pretty top notch hey?  I'll keep that 
in mind.

> > Whatever...  My #1 requirement for a desktop is making sure I can get a
> > picture of Gillian Anderson on it.  Everything else is just icing.
>
>I won't ask.

Hey, I'm single and have no life.  Leave me alone. :)




=============================================================
Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd.    His skin was pale and his eye was odd.
Always trust an Australian with a razor.

http://www.sweenytod.com               Paranoid is normal, normal is good



From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Mon Sep 11 09:32:30 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (SweenyTod)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:32:30 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Office and TCO
In-Reply-To: <39BC2990.A2C6FCC3@brooks.smileys.net>
References: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E309CC@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
 <00091022151401.07751@quag2>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000911092001.03783ad8@mail.sweenytod.com>

At 08:38 AM 11/09/2000, you wrote:
>Bradley Woodward wrote:
> > I'm very close to having permission to put a linux box into the department
> > for more than just evaluation purposes.  Last week I was with in a [g]nat's
> > whisker of getting them to dump Win2000 server, NT IIS 5.0, MSSQL 7.0 
> and ASP
> > web stuff in favor of Linux, mysql, Apache and PHP4.  I even had pricing to
> > show them how I was about to save the company damn nearly $10,000 in 
> software
> > licensing fees, not to mention hardware costs.  Instead, it's going on a
> > third party Solaris box, but damn it I kept my PHP4.
>
>Would they be sad if you quietly wedged a little '486 box (say, in a nice thin
>Osborne case like the one behind me) under your monitor and plugged it 
>into the
>network? One day, a tech may discover to his immense surprise that the
>enterprise revolves around a small antiquity on someone's desktop.

Our internet gateway, web proxy (squid) and firewall all run on a P200 
running RH Linux, so we're in that situation now.  I think the momentum is 
building, and I'm confidant that I'll have Linux doing important money 
earning work here quite soon.  I believe the main issues for a company with 
this are:

Support.  No biggie - you can sign a support contract with RH or whoever if 
you really feel the need to have somebody to talk to.  I find I've had more 
intellegant answers from mailing lists like this one, than I've had from a 
$130 support call to Microsoft.

The Unknown.  This is a huge issue for companies.  Microsoft might be 
regarded as not very good, but it's a known quantity.  Linux is 
unknown.  This is changing quite fast of course, but still hasn't 
penetrated the board rooms.  That's why reference sites are a massively 
good thing.  I've had a degree of success with this, by pointing to 
slashdot.org.  That place gets millions of hits per day, and runs on free 
software.  To be able to say to the boss that I'm planning on using the 
same technology for our projects is a big thing to them, because there is a 
visible example of reliability.  Any huge site that runs mysql, PHP, Apache 
and Linux would be very welcome.  The last big fight is still to come.

Cost.  It's amazing how uncomfortable people are paying nothing for 
something.  We've been conditioned to pay for what we get, and it's weird 
how hard it is to break that.  My solution to that is to order the CD for a 
product, like Redhat.  They feel better having paid $70 for it.

Have I mentioned reference sites yet?  Let me do it again.  Reference sites 
are important beond description.  It's vital that a company not think it's 
the first to deploy a technology.  They need tested and time proven solutions.

I think it's way past time I got of my soapbox now.  :)



=============================================================
Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd.    His skin was pale and his eye was odd.
Always trust an Australian with a razor.

http://www.sweenytod.com               Paranoid is normal, normal is good



From christian at amnet.net.au  Mon Sep 11 09:33:53 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:33:53 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Office and TCO
In-Reply-To: <00091022151401.07751@quag2>; from sweenytod@sweenytod.com on Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 10:15:14PM +0800
References: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E309CC@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au> <00091022151401.07751@quag2>
Message-ID: <20000911093353.A16639@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 10:15:14PM +0800, Bradley Woodward wrote:
 
> As I said, we must have very different organisations.  I've been writing 
> design documents and reports for years, and haven't lost a single document 
> because of a crash in Word.

Buy a lottery ticket.  NOW.


From gmalcolm at cygnus.uwa.edu.au  Mon Sep 11 11:09:11 2000
From: gmalcolm at cygnus.uwa.edu.au (Grant Malcolm)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:09:11 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Mac -> Linux? - long!
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000911094655.18277A-100000@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>

Small office environment - 12 Macs. We're not a DTP bureau, but a
community service agency. 

http://www.wantree.com.au/~recnet

Management is fed up with:

	a) poor performance from current ethernet network
	b) problems exchanging files internally & externally
	c) no workgroup software (shared calendar/scheduling/contacts)
	d) no common hardware or software standard within office

Other significant issues include the fact that most new staff are arriving
with Wintel skills and we've had difficulties obtaining ready and
affordable Mac support and training. The organisation may consider
appointing a very part-time IT support/sys admin person. 

Significant applications in use:

	FileMaker Pro for Mac
	- most of the organisation runs on this 
	MS Word/MS Works/Claris Works/Apple Works
	MS Excel
	PageMaker 6.52
	Photoshop 4
	NS/IE 4+
	MS Outlook

We've had a systems consultant in whose off-the-shelf solution has been to
suggest outfitting us all with PCs running win2k & msoffice and install an
nt server with contact management and scheduling software.

:(

i asked the consultant about open source alternatives. he felt using
"non-standard" (i.e. non-MS) applications would only exacerbate issues
related to support and exchanging files with external agencies. 

My feelings? As a not-for-profit organisation we're focused on providing
maximum support to our "clients". We need IT solutions that operate as
transparently as possible. Our staff are not IT professionals and even
asking them to remember to save a .doc extension on documents they are
emailing to win-based colleagues has proved too problematical!

Our client management system has been developed on FileMaker for Mac. 
It's a moderately complex contact management system.  Some of our staff
will not cope with even minor modifications to screen layouts and would
require retraining. However, we know it can be dropped on a disk and run
under FileMaker for windows without any alteration.

Moving to an MS environment would appear to deliver transparent ease of
operation for them.

I'm horrified at the prospect! While i've been dabbling with Linux for a
couple of years, i've just managed to reach a point where my home pc
hasn't booted windows for three months - even my wife is using it! Now i
might be forced to used the blighted MS at work.

There is a window of opportunity here for Linux with our organisation.
With what we'd save on purchasing proprietary software, we could probably
afford to completely revamp all of the existing applications developed for
FileMaker.

I don't think a shoot out or price war between the MS consultant currently
working on this and a Linux consultant is likely to win out here. However,
if there were a Linux advocate/s interested in working with this MS guy,
there maybe an opportunity to win our business and a new convert to open
source alternatives. 

Suggestions?

Cheers
Grant

PS. apologies for the length of this ramble!

------------------------------------------------
CONNECT with your LOCAL THEATRE
                     http://www.theatre.asn.au
------------------------------------------------






From jas at whatever.iinet.net.au  Mon Sep 11 12:39:52 2000
From: jas at whatever.iinet.net.au (Jason :))
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:39:52 +0800
Subject: [plug] PHP Arrays
In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000911084746.00bf1480@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <COEHJKDMHELHODMMOHMGOECPCAAA.jas@whatever.iinet.net.au>

on line 5 in that code, try:
$value=$browser["browser"];

PHP seems to like having quotation marks in its array element name thingy...

|
| <?
| $browser = get_browser();
| $value=$browser[browser];
| echo "$value";
| ?>
|



From tony at cantech.net.au  Mon Sep 11 13:03:22 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:03:22 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Tuesday's Meeting
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009111259030.16159-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

Hello All.
        Next Tusedays (12/09/2000) meeting will be held at:

Tennyson Group Office
Lvl 2 
1 Havelock St 
West Perth 6005 

and will commence at 19:30.

Leon Brooks, will give am updated  talk on PHP4 and SQL.  Entitled
	"Dynamising web pages with PHP4 and SQL" 

For info on meetings, locations and topics see:
    http://plug.linux.org.au/meetings.html

Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From gherardi at ark.cs.curtin.edu.au  Mon Sep 11 13:06:40 2000
From: gherardi at ark.cs.curtin.edu.au (Carl Gherardi)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:06:40 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] PHP Arrays
In-Reply-To: <COEHJKDMHELHODMMOHMGOECPCAAA.jas@whatever.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009111303500.12759-100000@ark.cs.curtin.edu.au>

On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Jason :) wrote:

> on line 5 in that code, try:
> $value=$browser["browser"];
> 
> PHP seems to like having quotation marks in its array element name thingy...
>
Or if browser in line 5 is a variable then
$value=$browser[$variable];

I've forgotten $ signs way to many times previously...
 
> |
> | <?
> | $browser = get_browser();
> | $value=$browser[browser];
> | echo "$value";
> | ?>
> |
> 
> 
> 



From skribe at amber.com.au  Mon Sep 11 13:14:47 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:14:47 +0800
Subject: [plug] PHP Arrays
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009111303500.12759-100000@ark.cs.curtin.edu
 .au>
References: <COEHJKDMHELHODMMOHMGOECPCAAA.jas@whatever.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000911131240.00c0e940@amber.com.au>

At 13:06 11/09/00, Carl Gherardi wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Jason :) wrote:
>
> > on line 5 in that code, try:
> > $value=$browser["browser"];
> >
> > PHP seems to like having quotation marks in its array element name 
> thingy...
> >
>Or if browser in line 5 is a variable then
>$value=$browser[$variable];
>
>I've forgotten $ signs way to many times previously...

Unfortunately, none of those solutions made any difference.  Does it work 
for anyone else?  I'm using php-4.02 - from the latest set of 
rpms.  Perhaps there's a bug.

TIA

skribe
	Purity:                           62.0% 			
	Corruption:                    38.0%	
	Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
	Weirdness factor:           31%
	Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
	Medieval Career:            Black Knight	



From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Mon Sep 11 13:35:38 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (SweenyTod)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:35:38 +0800
Subject: [plug] PHP Arrays
In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000911131240.00c0e940@amber.com.au>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009111303500.12759-100000@ark.cs.curtin.edu .au>
 <COEHJKDMHELHODMMOHMGOECPCAAA.jas@whatever.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000911132612.03788540@mail.sweenytod.com>

At 01:14 PM 11/09/2000, you wrote:
>At 13:06 11/09/00, Carl Gherardi wrote:
>>On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Jason :) wrote:
>>
>> > on line 5 in that code, try:
>> > $value=$browser["browser"];
>> >
>> > PHP seems to like having quotation marks in its array element name 
>> thingy...
>> >
>>Or if browser in line 5 is a variable then
>>$value=$browser[$variable];
>>
>>I've forgotten $ signs way to many times previously...
>
>Unfortunately, none of those solutions made any difference.  Does it work 
>for anyone else?  I'm using php-4.02 - from the latest set of 
>rpms.  Perhaps there's a bug.

Sorry if this has already been said, but I haven't been following this 
thread.  In order for get_browser() to work, you need the browsercap.ini 
file.  This is, from what I can gather, a browser version of termcap.  PHP 
reads $HTTP_USER_AGENT to find out what browser you've got, and then sucks 
the info out of browsercap.ini to populate the array.  If the file isn't 
there, then the array will be empty.

Try http://www.cyscape.com/asp/browscap/ for the file, install it and then 
try again.  The PHP FAQ talks about this.

Of course, $HTTP_USER_AGENT might return the information you're 
after.  Mine shows this:

Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0)

 From that I can tell most information about the client's browser that I'd 
need to.  Operating system and version of IE is there, if you're prepared 
to parse the info.



=============================================================
Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd.    His skin was pale and his eye was odd.
Always trust an Australian with a razor.

http://www.sweenytod.com               Paranoid is normal, normal is good



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Mon Sep 11 14:24:49 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:24:49 +0800
Subject: [plug]database front-end scripting tools, and Tuesday's Meeting
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009111259030.16159-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>
Message-ID: <39BC7AB1.7711DD8E@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

"Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima" wrote:
> 
> Hello All.
>         Next Tusedays (12/09/2000) meeting will be held at:
> 
> Tennyson Group Office
> Lvl 2
> 1 Havelock St
> West Perth 6005
> 
> and will commence at 19:30.
> 
> Leon Brooks, will give am updated  talk on PHP4 and SQL.  Entitled
>         "Dynamising web pages with PHP4 and SQL"
> 

I have a question (so, what else is new?).

We have a database, that we have written for a customer, that was
written in MS Access. Over the years, with many changes, it got to the
stage, where it needs to be rewrittten, to refine it, and, now, extra
functionality is also wanted.

We got Visual Studio 6, with Visual Foxpro, as it appeared more
powerful, and, the tables were stored as separate files, etc, so, it
appeared to have many benefits, over MS Access. However, it appears that
Visual Foxpro 6 has lousy reporting. And, the customer wants either the
most complicated report, or, the two most complicated reports, to
include extra fuctionality, including a bar graph representation of some
of the data that is stored in one of the sub-reports, that is embedded
in one of the reports.

What the two (most complicated) reports involve, are several embedded
sub-reports, created from accessing several tables, at present resulting
in reports of a graphical (by font, etc), text-based nature, forming the
final reports, with sub-reports side by side, and, offset (one to the
right, and the others in a series, alongside, and, above and below, the
sub-report to the right). The customer now wants, also, a graphical
representation of a summary of one of the sub-reports, displayed as a
vertical bar graph, under the sub report to the right. The sub-reports
may or may not appear, depending on which sub-report it is, and, whether
the quantities that the particular sub-report returns, are zero (in
which case it does not appear), or, non-zero.

So, this was investigated (as to whether it could be done, and, if so,
how), with Visual Foxpro 6. The graph was no problem, but, apart from
the graph, the reporting is lousy, with no provision for sub-reports,
and, with the column names on the report, only being the field names
allocated to a table (as in apparently unable to do "select.... from...
as ..."). And, only one report (no subreports), appears able to be
included in a report.

We looked through Visual Basic books, and, found the consistent response
"Visual basic has only simple reporting tools - for more complicated
reports, use a third-party application".

So, we found an MS Access book, that appears to give information as to
how to do it (note, the version of MS Access, is Access 97); but, the
forms in that, have wonky things - like colour problems (from memory,
the form background colour gets set, but, a sub-form tabs device thing,
defaults to the desktop colour scheme, which could lead to really weird
colour combinations, and make the application quite unpleasant to use).

The customer also wants networking incorporated in the new software
version, for a peer to peer network, where he uses Win98, and
applications that run on it, on other PC's that are connected to the PC,
on which the data is mostly entered, and the reports produced.

So, I thought, stuff it - we are getting problems, trying to do it with
MS based products, unless we have to buy expensive, third-party
software, which would have to be on-charged and on-sold to the customer,
significantly increasing the price of the work, which we do not want to
make even more expensive; why not investigate using a Linux based web
application solution, with the data entry PC, as a web server. So, we
looked through some PHP and Perl books, and, we can't find any capacity
for outputting data as graphical graphs. We have seen an example (a
character based usage graph for a web site) of a character based graph,
in the Perl 5 HOW_TO book, but, no other reference to graphs, in any of
the Perl or PHP books, at which we looked. One of the PHP books
referenced, was "Building Database Applications for the Web Using PHP3".

What we need to know, is, whether PHP or Perl, or, some similar
Linux-based, web oriented, application, can be used to generate
reasonably complex reports, with embedded sub-reports, and, graphical
(as opposed to character-based) dynamic graphs, able to be embedded in
the reports.

I have also looked at some Java books, including "Database Programming
with Visual J++", but, Java is lousy for output formatting anyway (and,
from what I understand, file-handling), and I didn't find anything
useful.

Without going into spending heaps of money on expensive, proprietary,
third-party reporting tools, such as Cold Fusion, or Cognos, etc, does
PHP, or Perl, or any similar application, have the capability to do what
we need?

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From gmalcolm at cygnus.uwa.edu.au  Mon Sep 11 14:35:17 2000
From: gmalcolm at cygnus.uwa.edu.au (Grant Malcolm)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:35:17 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug]database front-end scripting tools, and Tuesday's Meeting
In-Reply-To: <39BC7AB1.7711DD8E@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000911143135.4876B-100000@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>

On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> What we need to know, is, whether PHP or Perl, or, some similar
> Linux-based, web oriented, application, can be used to generate
> reasonably complex reports, with embedded sub-reports, and, graphical
> (as opposed to character-based) dynamic graphs, able to be embedded in
> the reports.

Yes.

http://www.hotscripts.com/PHP/Scripts_and_Programs/Graphs_and_Charts/

amongst many other references.

Cheers
Grant

------------------------------------------------
CONNECT with your LOCAL THEATRE
                     http://www.theatre.asn.au
------------------------------------------------



From tony at cantech.net.au  Mon Sep 11 14:35:04 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:35:04 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug]database front-end scripting tools, and Tuesday's Meeting
In-Reply-To: <39BC7AB1.7711DD8E@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009111429390.16159-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> I have a question (so, what else is new?).

<snip db stuff>

> What we need to know, is, whether PHP or Perl, or, some similar
> Linux-based, web oriented, application, can be used to generate
> reasonably complex reports, with embedded sub-reports, and, graphical
> (as opposed to character-based) dynamic graphs, able to be embedded in
> the reports.

You can get the GD libraries for perl these can draw graphs from raw data.
You can obviously use the perl DBI/DBD to get at the data.

If things were dire you could generate LaTeX from perl then dvips it and print
the ps.   If you weren't after a paper report then writing html from perl is
easy.

In short you can do it .... it ';s just a matter of the skills available in
you business and the time you have in devel.
 
> I have also looked at some Java books, including "Database Programming
> with Visual J++", but, Java is lousy for output formatting anyway (and,
> from what I understand, file-handling), and I didn't find anything
> useful.

Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Mon Sep 11 14:44:08 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:44:08 +0800
Subject: [plug]database front-end scripting tools, and Tuesday's Meeting
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000911143135.4876B-100000@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <39BC7F38.6357553B@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Grant Malcolm wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > What we need to know, is, whether PHP or Perl, or, some similar
> > Linux-based, web oriented, application, can be used to generate
> > reasonably complex reports, with embedded sub-reports, and, graphical
> > (as opposed to character-based) dynamic graphs, able to be embedded in
> > the reports.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> http://www.hotscripts.com/PHP/Scripts_and_Programs/Graphs_and_Charts/
> 
> amongst many other references.
> 
> Cheers
> Grant
> 

Thanks, Tony and Grant, for the pointers. It is usually, just a matter
of getting the references. Will investigate further.

Hopefully, such stuff can be included tomorrow night, and, hopefully, we
can get there.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................


From earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com  Mon Sep 11 16:13:47 2000
From: earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com (Earnshaw, Mike)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:13:47 +0800
Subject: [plug] PPP to SMB authentication
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1785@EXCHANGE>

List,

I have just set up a PPP RAS server in Linux, got the machine to answer
the line etc. Unfortunately we have a NT PDC that (for the time being)
is used for user authentication. I have been told I need a patch
"smb_nt_verify" for the pppd source for this to work. Just tried a few
searches on the net and I am currently searching the samba www site, but
time is running out on me.

Anyone know where I can get this from?

Thanks,

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Mike Earnshaw      | "Nothing is foolproof to a      | e-mail in header
 Computer Systems  |  sufficiently talented fool"    | Tel : +61 8 9256
1099
  Support          |                     Anon.       | Fax : +61 8 9256
1199
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
   ,-._|\    Union Switch & signal
  /      \   24 Bannick Court
  *_.--._/   Canning Vale, WA 6155, Western Australia
        v 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----


From tony at cantech.net.au  Mon Sep 11 16:34:19 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:34:19 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] PPP to SMB authentication
In-Reply-To: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1785@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009111632380.16159-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Earnshaw, Mike wrote:

> I have just set up a PPP RAS server in Linux, got the machine to answer
> the line etc. Unfortunately we have a NT PDC that (for the time being)
> is used for user authentication. I have been told I need a patch
> "smb_nt_verify" for the pppd source for this to work. Just tried a few
> searches on the net and I am currently searching the samba www site, but
> time is running out on me.

If you have a pam cabable system you could into the SAMBA module at:
http://www.us.kernel.org/pub/linux/libs/pam/modules.html

It sould be a simple change to add smb auth into ppp (or ANY pam supporting
app).


Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com  Mon Sep 11 16:52:07 2000
From: earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com (Earnshaw, Mike)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:52:07 +0800
Subject: [plug] PAM + SMB + PPP
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1786@EXCHANGE>

List,

Not sure I understand this ...

http://sg.samba.org/samba/ftp/pam_smb/

It mentions in here that when compiled and installed I need to modify
the /etc/pam.d contents to show what 'programs' will use this. On my
target system there is a 'ppp' in this directory ...

#%PAM-1.0
auth		required	pam_nologin.so
auth		required	pam_pwd.so shadow nullok
account	required	pam_pwd.so
session	required	pam_pwd.so

Guessing heavily here, the first column is a process or action, all of
which are mandatory and use the third columns 'programs' to work.

Do I need to create something similar for pppd in pam.d? Or do I need to
"merge" this PAM into the pppd (2.3.11) source and recompile?

Thanks,

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Mike Earnshaw      | "Nothing is foolproof to a      | e-mail in header
 Computer Systems  |  sufficiently talented fool"    | Tel : +61 8 9256
1099
  Support          |                     Anon.       | Fax : +61 8 9256
1199
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
   ,-._|\    Union Switch & signal
  /      \   24 Bannick Court
  *_.--._/   Canning Vale, WA 6155, Western Australia
        v 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----


From tony at cantech.net.au  Mon Sep 11 16:55:52 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:55:52 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] PAM + SMB + PPP
In-Reply-To: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1786@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009111654000.16159-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Earnshaw, Mike wrote:

> Guessing heavily here, the first column is a process or action, all of
> which are mandatory and use the third columns 'programs' to work.
> 
> Do I need to create something similar for pppd in pam.d? Or do I need to
> "merge" this PAM into the pppd (2.3.11) source and recompile?

Basically ppp and pppd are the same(in this context) so you'd just add a line
like:
#%PAM-1.0
auth       required     /lib/security/pam_securetty.so
auth       required     /lib/security/pam_smb_auth.so              <---
auth       required     /lib/security/pam_nologin.so
account    required     /lib/security/pam_pwdb.so
password   required     /lib/security/pam_cracklib.so
password   required     /lib/security/pam_pwdb.so shadow nullok use_authtok
session    required     /lib/security/pam_pwdb.so

to your existing ppp file.

Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From skribe at amber.com.au  Mon Sep 11 17:06:36 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:06:36 +0800
Subject: [plug] PHP Arrays
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000911132612.03788540@mail.sweenytod.com>
References: <4.3.0.20000911131240.00c0e940@amber.com.au>
 <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009111303500.12759-100000@ark.cs.curtin.edu .au>
 <COEHJKDMHELHODMMOHMGOECPCAAA.jas@whatever.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000911165220.00c068b0@amber.com.au>

At 13:35 11/09/00, SweenyTod wrote:
>Sorry if this has already been said, but I haven't been following this 
>thread.  In order for get_browser() to work, you need the browsercap.ini 
>file.  This is, from what I can gather, a browser version of termcap.  PHP 
>reads $HTTP_USER_AGENT to find out what browser you've got, and then sucks 
>the info out of browsercap.ini to populate the array.  If the file isn't 
>there, then the array will be empty.

Yep.  All done.  The array works.  Extracting individual elements from the 
array don't.  Either my formatting is somehow up the duff or there is a bug 
in 4.0.2.

I haven't played with extracting individual info from arrays before so 
there is every chance that I'm doing something wrong.  What I'm trying to 
do is fairly basic and could easily be done with just $http_user_agent.  I 
wanted to play with get_browser() to see if I could use it for something a 
little more complicated.  It seems not =).

Unfortunately the manual is of little use in this case.  I spent several 
hours yesterday bashing my head against this, searching through the manual, 
the errata and the otherwise very good book, Professional PHP Programming, 
all to no avail.  There seems to be plenty of info about how to cycle 
through the data in an array but very little on how to extract individual 
elements beyond the first or last.

I have no doubt, however, that Leon will commend to me the specific page in 
the manual about extracting individual elements from an array, though =).


skribe
	Purity:                           62.0% 			
	Corruption:                    38.0%	
	Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
	Weirdness factor:           31%
	Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
	Medieval Career:            Black Knight	



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 11 18:03:00 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:03:00 +0800
Subject: [plug] PHP Arrays
References: <4.3.0.20000911131240.00c0e940@amber.com.au>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009111303500.12759-100000@ark.cs.curtin.edu .au>
	 <COEHJKDMHELHODMMOHMGOECPCAAA.jas@whatever.iinet.net.au> <4.3.0.20000911165220.00c068b0@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <39BCADD4.2281AD40@brooks.smileys.net>

skribe wrote:
> I have no doubt, however, that Leon will commend to me the specific page in
> the manual about extracting individual elements from an array, though =).

$array[0]        or hiher offset,
$array[name]     and
$array["name"]   all work for me

-- 
"They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they
outvoted me." -- Nathaniel Lee, en route to a mental institution, 17th c.


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 11 18:07:08 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:07:08 +0800
Subject: [plug]database front-end scripting tools, and Tuesday's Meeting
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009111259030.16159-100000@thor.cantech.net.au> <39BC7AB1.7711DD8E@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39BCAECC.82F15A4F@brooks.smileys.net>

Bret Busby wrote:
> [--S--N--I--P--]
> What we need to know, is, whether PHP or Perl, or, some similar
> Linux-based, web oriented, application, can be used to generate
> reasonably complex reports, with embedded sub-reports, and, graphical
> (as opposed to character-based) dynamic graphs, able to be embedded in
> the reports.

Bar graphs are trivial, just use a two-cell table.

Graph-graphs can be done using PHP's gd functions.

-- 
Get with the program, Jeffrey. No one is "wrong" on Usenet. They are
either 100% totally correct, or they are "a lying, scum sucking weasel."
There is no in between. -- Garrett Johnson, in talk.politics.misc


From skribe at amber.com.au  Mon Sep 11 18:09:03 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:09:03 +0800
Subject: [plug] PHP Arrays
In-Reply-To: <39BCADD4.2281AD40@brooks.smileys.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000911131240.00c0e940@amber.com.au>
 <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009111303500.12759-100000@ark.cs.curtin.edu .au>
 <COEHJKDMHELHODMMOHMGOECPCAAA.jas@whatever.iinet.net.au>
 <4.3.0.20000911165220.00c068b0@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000911180759.00aedd40@amber.com.au>


>all work for me

Yeah.  They all work for me too...

with one exception =).


skribe
	Purity:                           62.0% 			
	Corruption:                    38.0%	
	Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
	Weirdness factor:           31%
	Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
	Medieval Career:            Black Knight	



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 11 19:31:57 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:31:57 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Office and TCO
References: <39BA4405.BA4CF4F2@brooks.smileys.net>
	 <00090922395300.16981@quag2>
	 <39BAE7DB.A39841D7@brooks.smileys.net>
	 <00091022062400.07751@quag2> <4.3.2.7.2.20000911085823.0376ee40@mail.sweenytod.com>
Message-ID: <39BCC2AD.E2E5B33C@brooks.smileys.net>

SweenyTod wrote:
>> Uh, what is "do" forms? What kind of forms? I ask this because there are many
>> tools for processing form-like information out of email streams, and turning a
>> web-form into email is a one-liner in PHP.

> Well, that's a very good question, and I've asked it myself a number of
> times.  Basically, it's an outlook email beaten to look like a standard
> form on a webpage.  It submits the data back to Exchange, which does
> whatever you want with it.  It's nothing clever or special.  The only
> reason it's used is that it is part of Outlook.  I can think of a number of
> alternatives, and don't think it would take more than a day to convert
> every form we use over to a web based thing.  I've asked why we don't
> switch to using Sendmail, and so get rid of an entire server, but, and I
> quote, "Exchange is the company standard."  And that quote is at the heart
> of what I've been saying.  It's there, it's working, and they don't want to
> change because after all this effort and expense, they want to get their
> money worth out of it.

Ah, so... too easy. Just send HTML email with a form buried in it that points
back to a page on your intranet webserver, which snarfs the data from the fields
using PHP, send an email and presents a "so long and thanks for all the fish"
page.

As for Exchange, point out that one powerball (or cracker) and the whole lot is
(1) public knowledge and (2) history; go for HP OpenMail or one of the Bynari
solutions.

>>> The idea of Word
>>> not being able to write Word documents as well as another word processor is
>>> just a little hard to take.

>> Next time Word royally screws up a WP document, try it in SO. If SO can
>> read it, point this out. Each time.

> Ah, I see.  SO's import filters are pretty top notch hey?

Not so much that as they make no wild assumptions about sanity on import, or
what will be reading it on export.

>>> Whatever...  My #1 requirement for a desktop is making sure I can get a
>>> picture of Gillian Anderson on it.  Everything else is just icing.

>> I won't ask.

> Hey, I'm single and have no life.  Leave me alone. :)

I have a friend who is married and has no life. She's perfectly happy. (-:

-- 
"The liberty of the computer must be thus far limited; it must not
make a nuisance of itself to other systems." (Egress filtering)


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 11 19:37:35 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:37:35 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Office and TCO
References: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E309CC@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
	 <00091022151401.07751@quag2> <4.3.2.7.2.20000911092001.03783ad8@mail.sweenytod.com>
Message-ID: <39BCC3FF.7C99E54C@brooks.smileys.net>

SweenyTod wrote:
> At 08:38 AM 11/09/2000, you wrote:
>> Bradley Woodward wrote:
>>> I'm very close to having permission to put a linux box into the department
>>> for more than just evaluation purposes.

>> Would they be sad if you quietly wedged a little '486 box (say, in a nice
>> thin Osborne case like the one behind me) under your monitor and plugged
>> it into the network?

> Our internet gateway, web proxy (squid) and firewall all run on a P200
> running RH Linux, so we're in that situation now.

Next step is to add another box. For testing things, is the official excuse. Are
there any other P200s lying around? Put up a webserver on it, hello intranet,
give everyone a default page, including link to simple instructions for
uupdating their page.

Put up MRTG and graph some things. Network traffic, web traffic, squid useage,
percentage of email containing images... it matters not. Add Sympa and put a few
mailing lists on it (compete with the Exchange box), you know, social clubs,
interest groups (cricket fans, whatever), that kind of thing.

See if you an make it "indispensible" by stealth. (-:

> Cost.  It's amazing how uncomfortable people are paying nothing for
> something.

Meet your new retailer. Of anything. (-:

If you like, I'll invoice you reasonable-sounding amounts for stuff and donate
the bulk of it to the authors. Kill at least three birds with one stone (they
get to feel comfortable, authors get money, I get turnover).

-- 
A clerk at a register in a computer store was questioned as to why
a 14.4 fax-modem costs over $400. The Induhvidual clerk seriously
studied the box and replied, "Well, it also has data."
    -- from the DNRC Newsletter, by Scott Adams


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 11 19:39:41 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:39:41 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS bleeding Australia dry
References: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E309CC@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au> <00091022151401.07751@quag2> <39BC2968.399CE5D6@durbanet.co.za>
Message-ID: <39BCC47D.86DC975E@brooks.smileys.net>

Colin Muller wrote:
> "Australia's problem is that while its economy has achieved major
> breakthroughs in recent years in boosting productivity and also
> utilising technology, [it] has fallen behind in the growth of output in
> the IT [information technology] sector," he said.

ie, buying too much gear and software in instead of making it locally.

Fix the national debt, ease the trade imbalance, use Linux?

-- 
If your boss gets drunk and offers to photocopy her 
posterior, do not helpfully suggest pressing "reduce 75%."
    -- from "Office Party Tips", by Scott Adams


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Tue Sep 12 08:27:53 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 08:27:53 +0800
Subject: [plug] place your orders! (-:
Message-ID: <39BD7889.93C8FDA9@brooks.smileys.net>

For all of the BIll fans on the list:

    http://www.boardwatch.com/borgposter.html

-- 
"I recently shampooed my pet rabbit with Body Shop shampoo. Its eyes
bulged out and turned red. If you tested your stuff on animals like
everyone else, this sort of thing wouldn't happen." 
    -- Extract from a customer complaint letter


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Tue Sep 12 08:31:02 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 08:31:02 +0800
Subject: [plug] OSS gets insurance break?
Message-ID: <39BD7945.4461422B@brooks.smileys.net>

Lloyds like TripWire:

    http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/newsbursts/0,7407,2626799,00.html

-- 
"The POP3 server service depends on the SMTP server service, which 
 failed to start because of the following error:

"The operation completed successfully."  -- Windows NT Server v3.51


From colin at durbanet.co.za  Tue Sep 12 08:34:20 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 08:34:20 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS bleeding Australia dry
References: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E309CC@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au> <00091022151401.07751@quag2> <39BC2968.399CE5D6@durbanet.co.za> <39BCC47D.86DC975E@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39BD7A0C.C6804BB6@durbanet.co.za>

Leon Brooks wrote:
> 
> Colin Muller wrote:
> > "Australia's problem is that while its economy has achieved major
> > breakthroughs in recent years in boosting productivity and also
> > utilising technology, [it] has fallen behind in the growth of output in
> > the IT [information technology] sector," he said.
> 
> ie, buying too much gear and software in instead of making it locally.
> 
> Fix the national debt, ease the trade imbalance, use Linux?

It's a point I've used successfully before as part of an argument in
favour of using open source software on a project. Depends on the
client's sense of (or legal obligation to pretend to have a sense of)
this sort of thing, of course: if a client is part of - or funded by -
the government, for example, this can be presented as a social
responsibility issue, and the macro-economic cost of using imports can
be presented as a point of vulnerability to public criticism (which is
exactly what it should be, in my view). Your mileage will definitely
vary from client to client, inside and outside government, but I've
found it worth slipping a paragraph about this into proposals. Makes
people think about it for a millisecond, if nothing else.

Along similar lines, buying local support for open source products
contributes to the development of local IT expertise. Buying imported
software contributes to the development of IT expertise in R&D labs in
the source country. There's a danger of painting all this a bit too
monotonally, of course - but the basic considerations are real.

Colin


From colin at durbanet.co.za  Tue Sep 12 08:51:28 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 08:51:28 +0800
Subject: [plug] Aide vs Tripwire?
References: <39BD7945.4461422B@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39BD7E10.59AF0B93@durbanet.co.za>

Leon Brooks wrote:
> 
> Lloyds like TripWire:
> 
>     http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/newsbursts/0,7407,2626799,00.html

Insurance aside, does anyone know of any reasons not to use Aide instead
of Tripwire?

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~rammer/aide.html

Colin


From jbreen at wn.com.au  Tue Sep 12 10:27:04 2000
From: jbreen at wn.com.au (John Breen)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:27:04 +0800
Subject: [plug] IP Masquerade - HELP!
Message-ID: <41200092122274312@wn.com.au>

Okay, I admit to being stumped.  Perhaps some of the gurus could
help.  Again.

I've read the Linux IP Masquerading HOWTO, with special attention to
getting it all to go on a 2.2.x kernel (such as I have...)  I've
followed the instructions therein in rebuilding my kernel, set up a
script that's run on startup to configure IP Firewalling with
IPCHAINS and put the right things in the right places in
/proc/sys/net/ipv4.  I've set up my network correctly - TCP/IP works
fine internally and samba runs perfectly over it.  When I connect to
my ISP, I can go to my linux box and do

ping <address of my end of the connection>

and see it work.  I can ping the other end of the connection and it
works.  I can ping the DNS by IP and all goes well.  I set up my
resolv.conf so I pass off DNS requests to their end, and ping a URL
and it goes well.  (ie, the Linux box is happy that it's got a
connection)

I now go to the windows box, set up the default gateway to the IP of
my Linux box, go through the required "You have moved the mouse. 
Your computer must be restarted..." crap, and ping the IP of the
linux box.  It works fine.  I then ping the IP of the my end of the
connection and all goes well.  But, when I ping the other end of the
connection, I get "destination host is unreachable".  Thinking, "Ok,
ICMP doesn't work..." I make a note to take another look at the
kernel configuration and try a ftp connect to a remote site by IP
number, knowing the ftp masq module is built and loaded.  Nothing
doing.  Madly, I go back through the HOWTO again.  Nope, everything
checks OK.

The IPCHAINS rules that are set up according to the HOWTO are 

/sbin/ipchains -P forward DENY
/sbin/ipchains -A forward -s 192.168.0.0/24 -j MASQ

My dialup scripts sets a default route via the PPP connection.  I've
checked my routing table and yes, the default is there.

Also, in /etc/sysconfig/network (? - I'm not at my linux box right
now...), I've put the line to enable IP Masquerading.

What's wrong here?  I spent most of Sunday buggering around trying to
get everything to work.  There's probably something I'm missing, but
I'm buggered if I can see what...

HELP!
|
| John Breen
|
| jbreen at wn.com.au
| john at fairport.com.au
|
| "Do not worry, Arthur Dent.  Be afraid.  Be VERY afraid."
| Agrajag, "Life, the Universe and Everything"
|



From Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au  Mon Sep 11 18:54:37 2000
From: Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:54:37 +0800
Subject: [plug] Box [off-topic]
Message-ID: <000501c01bde$d6973fa0$c83cfea9@terminus>

Does anyone have an old box (eg. early Pentium, 400Mb HDD, 16Mb) they don't
need that they can bring along tonight?  I need one for tomorrow and I'll
pay cash.

TIA





From christian at amnet.net.au  Tue Sep 12 10:27:49 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:27:49 +0800
Subject: [plug] Aide vs Tripwire?
In-Reply-To: <39BD7E10.59AF0B93@durbanet.co.za>; from colin@durbanet.co.za on Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 08:51:28AM +0800
References: <39BD7945.4461422B@brooks.smileys.net> <39BD7E10.59AF0B93@durbanet.co.za>
Message-ID: <20000912102749.C16639@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 08:51:28AM +0800, Colin Muller wrote:
> Leon Brooks wrote:
> > 
> > Lloyds like TripWire:
> > 
> >     http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/newsbursts/0,7407,2626799,00.html
> 
> Insurance aside, does anyone know of any reasons not to use Aide instead
> of Tripwire?
> 
> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~rammer/aide.html

At a quick glance, AIDE seems to support more hash functions so that's
an advantage, albeit a very tiny one.  Without evaluating AIDE (i.e.,
going purely on what's on the web page) it basically seems to do exactly
what Tripwire does except it's free software.  I'm not sure whether or
not it's quite as "mature" as Tripwire though.  Either way these tools
give minimal protection against a sophisticated attacker.


From tony at cantech.net.au  Tue Sep 12 11:13:32 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:13:32 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Box [off-topic]
In-Reply-To: <000501c01bde$d6973fa0$c83cfea9@terminus>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009121112480.659-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:

> Does anyone have an old box (eg. early Pentium, 400Mb HDD, 16Mb) they don't
> need that they can bring along tonight?  I need one for tomorrow and I'll
> pay cash.

Do you need one perminantly or just for a while (where while is < 2 Months)


Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au  Mon Sep 11 19:30:19 2000
From: Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:30:19 +0800
Subject: [plug] Box [off-topic]
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009121112480.659-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>
Message-ID: <000501c01be3$ab56ea20$c83cfea9@terminus>

> Do you need one perminantly or just for a while (where while is < 2
Months)

Permanently.  Needs a network card in it.  A keyboard would be nice too.





From earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com  Tue Sep 12 11:35:04 2000
From: earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com (Earnshaw, Mike)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:35:04 +0800
Subject: [plug] FTP shortcuts
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1790@EXCHANGE>

List,

When using ftp are there any nice shortcuts (like the TAB auto
completion etc) that would make it so much easier getting those files
from the web? Just using a standard install of RH

Thanks,

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Mike Earnshaw      | "Nothing is foolproof to a      | e-mail in header
 Computer Systems  |  sufficiently talented fool"    | Tel : +61 8 9256
1099
  Support          |                     Anon.       | Fax : +61 8 9256
1199
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
   ,-._|\    Union Switch & signal
  /      \   24 Bannick Court
  *_.--._/   Canning Vale, WA 6155, Western Australia
        v 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----


From christian at amnet.net.au  Tue Sep 12 11:37:38 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:37:38 +0800
Subject: [plug] FTP shortcuts
In-Reply-To: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1790@EXCHANGE>; from earnshawm@wa.switch.aust.com on Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 11:35:04AM +0800
References: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1790@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <20000912113738.D16639@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 11:35:04AM +0800, Earnshaw, Mike wrote:
> When using ftp are there any nice shortcuts (like the TAB auto
> completion etc) that would make it so much easier getting those files
> from the web? Just using a standard install of RH

ncftp does TAB completion... but it can be annoying slow depending on
how fast the network connection is between you and the FTP site.
Otherwise, there are plenty of GUI or more user-friendly FTP clients
than standard ftp(1).

Regards,

Christian.


From steveg at calm.wa.gov.au  Tue Sep 12 11:42:23 2000
From: steveg at calm.wa.gov.au (Steve Grasso)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:42:23 +0800
Subject: [plug] Box [off-topic]
In-Reply-To: <000501c01be3$ab56ea20$c83cfea9@terminus>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009121112480.659-100000@thor.cantech.net.au> <000501c01be3$ab56ea20$c83cfea9@terminus>
Message-ID: <00091211481203.25271@pluto.calm.wa.gov.au>

On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:
> > Do you need one perminantly or just for a while (where while is < 2
> Months)
> 
> Permanently.  Needs a network card in it.  A keyboard would be nice too.

If you're still in a fix at 4.00pm today, an option for you would be to grab
about  $120 and hurry down to Computers with Purpose at 104 Wray Ave in Freo
and pick one up.

Regards,
Steve (and no, I don't have shares in the shop. I've found them to be a
reliable source of cheap computers/bits in the past)


From steveg at calm.wa.gov.au  Tue Sep 12 11:37:21 2000
From: steveg at calm.wa.gov.au (Steve Grasso)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:37:21 +0800
Subject: [plug] IP Masquerade - HELP!
In-Reply-To: <41200092122274312@wn.com.au>
References: <41200092122274312@wn.com.au>
Message-ID: <00091212151204.25271@pluto.calm.wa.gov.au>

On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, John Breen wrote:
> Okay, I admit to being stumped.  Perhaps some of the gurus could
> help.  Again.

I'm no guru. With my advice YMMV.

[snip] 

A few suggestions, many of which have been covered before on list in relation
to the use of ipchains 

--   Have you enabled ip forwarding? As root, look at the result of

cat /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward

If this is 1, forwarding has been allowed (kernel willing). If not the
following will switch it on

echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward

--   You may glean some clues from the following ipchains-enabling script

http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/sdf/h/b/hburgiss/linux/ipchains.html

--  When I started setting up gateway machines, I found Rusty's IPCHAINS-HOWTO
more useful than the MASQUERADING-HOWTO in getting both going:

http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/IPCHAINS-HOWTO.html

--  I've found Pointman Firewall (http://www.pointman.org/) provides a
painless method for implementing masq and ipchains (providing the kernel's
ready to go). Once it's installed, I recommend checking and editing the
firewall rules to suit your requirements.

Hope this helps John.

Regards,
Steve


From steveg at calm.wa.gov.au  Tue Sep 12 12:16:12 2000
From: steveg at calm.wa.gov.au (Steve Grasso)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 12:16:12 +0800
Subject: [plug] Interface Keeps Dying
Message-ID: <00091212261405.25271@pluto.calm.wa.gov.au>

List,

Any suggestions as to why a 3com509b NIC might keep dying after a few minutes?
ifconfig reports it as being up even when it's not, and an ifdown/ifup kicks
it alive again. The IRQ and IO are not conflicting with anything else, and PnP
has been switched off at card level. In the absence of something else (ideas?),
I'm concluding the NIC's had it.

TIA
Steve


From griffith at environ.wa.gov.au  Tue Sep 12 12:41:43 2000
From: griffith at environ.wa.gov.au (David Griffiths)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 12:41:43 +0800
Subject: [plug] FTP shortcuts
In-Reply-To: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1790@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <00Sep12.123026wst.119044@epagate.environ.wa.gov.au>

>List,
>
>When using ftp are there any nice shortcuts (like the TAB auto
>completion etc) that would make it so much easier getting those files
>from the web? Just using a standard install of RH
>
>Thanks,
>

You've know this one already, but...
if you're just using plain old ftp using "mget" can be handy. It allows you
to say
"mget kernel*" and asks you to type y/n for each match. Better than typing
full file names.

cheers,

Dave.



 ========================================================================

  David Griffiths                             griffith at environ.wa.gov.au

  Air Quality Management Branch
  Department of Environmental Protection          Phone:   61 8 9222 7151

  Westralia Square                                Fax  :   61 8 9321 5184
  141 St Georges Tce
  Perth 6000
  Western Australia
 ========================================================================




From garth at cclinic.com.au  Tue Sep 12 12:43:04 2000
From: garth at cclinic.com.au (Garth Atkinson)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 12:43:04 +0800
Subject: [plug] Ulysses ISO best mirror
Message-ID: <39BDB458.A0D3CC33@cclinic.com.au>

Hello Pluggers

Where is the best place to download the Mandrake 7.2b ISO images
from? 

ftp.wasp.net.au?
or
www.wasp.net.au?

Or is it on aarnet somewhere?

Garth


From earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com  Tue Sep 12 13:13:51 2000
From: earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com (Earnshaw, Mike)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 13:13:51 +0800
Subject: [plug] PAM - PPP - NT PDC Auth - tailspin...
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1792@EXCHANGE>

List,

I seem to be stuck! In summary what I am trying to do is use a Linux 6.2
box as a PPP server that authenticates against an NT PDC for user names.

I have installed ppp 2.3.11, got pam_smb-1.1.6.

My mgetty login.conf has:
/AutoPPP/	-	@	/usr/sbin/pppd	auth	login	debug

/etc/pam.d/ppp
auth	required	pam_smb_auth.so

/lib/security
pam_smb_auth.so

/etc/pam.conf
<DOMAIN NAME>
<PDC NAME - which is also in DNS>

When ever I try and dial in, the line is answered but password is
rejected and following /var/log/mesages shows PAP authentication
failure.

This is all very new and I am stumped. Reading the pam_smb help page the
only thing I don't appear to have on my system is pamsmbd [Do I need to
re-compile smb with pam support or something here?]

Help please.

Thanks,

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Mike Earnshaw      | "Nothing is foolproof to a      | e-mail in header
 Computer Systems  |  sufficiently talented fool"    | Tel : +61 8 9256
1099
  Support          |                     Anon.       | Fax : +61 8 9256
1199
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
   ,-._|\    Union Switch & signal
  /      \   24 Bannick Court
  *_.--._/   Canning Vale, WA 6155, Western Australia
        v 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----


From steveg at calm.wa.gov.au  Tue Sep 12 13:36:09 2000
From: steveg at calm.wa.gov.au (Steve Grasso)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 13:36:09 +0800
Subject: [plug] IP Masquerade - HELP!
In-Reply-To: <41200092125447828@wn.com.au>
References: <41200092125447828@wn.com.au>
Message-ID: <00091213370206.25271@pluto.calm.wa.gov.au>

> >On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, John Breen wrote:
> >I'm no guru. With my advice YMMV.
> Nup, that acronym's got me buggered too :)

Sorry. Your Milage May Vary.


From sbaker at icg.net.au  Tue Sep 12 14:40:52 2000
From: sbaker at icg.net.au (Steve Baker)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:40:52 +0800
Subject: [plug] FTP shortcuts
References: <00Sep12.123026wst.119044@epagate.environ.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <01a301c01c84$7adf76e0$65140a0a@sg.mercatela.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Griffiths" <griffith at environ.wa.gov.au>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Tuesday, 12 September 2000 12:41
Subject: Re: [plug] FTP shortcuts


> >List,
> >
> >When using ftp are there any nice shortcuts (like the TAB auto
> >completion etc) that would make it so much easier getting those files
> >from the web? Just using a standard install of RH
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
>
> You've know this one already, but...
> if you're just using plain old ftp using "mget" can be handy. It allows
you
> to say
> "mget kernel*" and asks you to type y/n for each match. Better than typing
> full file names.
>
> cheers,
>
> Dave.
>

and if you say 'prompt n' before that, it won't ask y/n for each one either.

Regards,
Steve
--
Steve Baker
Principal Associate

mercatela
Tel: +65 324 9727
Fax: +65 324 5116

www.mercatela.com




From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 12 14:49:21 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:49:21 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] FTP shortcuts
In-Reply-To: <01a301c01c84$7adf76e0$65140a0a@sg.mercatela.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000912144507.2158B-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Steve Baker wrote:
> From: "David Griffiths" <griffith at environ.wa.gov.au>
> > if you're just using plain old ftp using "mget" can be handy. It allows
> > you to say "mget kernel*" and asks you to type y/n for each match.
> > Better than typing full file names.

> and if you say 'prompt n' before that, it won't ask y/n for each one either.

This is not, strictly speaking, accurate:

gmild at retsina:~$ ftp
ftp> prompt 
Interactive mode off.
ftp> prompt n
Interactive mode on.
ftp> prompt y
Interactive mode off.
ftp> prompt off
Interactive mode on.
ftp> prompt on
Interactive mode off.
ftp> prompt ly turn interactive mode off please
Interactive mode on.

As you can see, the "prompt" command merely toggles the state, ignoring
the parameter. You will need to make sure that the response from the ftp
client is "Interactive mode off.", which it should be on the first
invocation of "prompt", since the default is almost always "on".

-Greg Mildenhall



From thomasa at wa.switch.aust.com  Tue Sep 12 14:51:59 2000
From: thomasa at wa.switch.aust.com (Thomas, Andre)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:51:59 +0800
Subject: [plug] Box [off-topic]
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE107FFBE@EXCHANGE>

Does any one have their number?

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Grasso [mailto:steveg at calm.wa.gov.au]
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 11:39 AM
To: plug at plug.linux.org.au
Subject: Re: [plug] Box [off-topic]


On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:
> > Do you need one perminantly or just for a while (where while is < 2
> Months)
> 
> Permanently.  Needs a network card in it.  A keyboard would be nice
too.

If you're still in a fix at 4.00pm today, an option for you would be to
grab
about  $120 and hurry down to Computers with Purpose at 104 Wray Ave in
Freo
and pick one up.

Regards,
Steve (and no, I don't have shares in the shop. I've found them to be a
reliable source of cheap computers/bits in the past)


From colinr at tiwest.com.au  Tue Sep 12 14:58:44 2000
From: colinr at tiwest.com.au (Colin Rothnie)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:58:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] Box [off-topic]
Message-ID: <E9EDEF4E768BD311BE0B00A0C9D4C42835E242@minxs1.tiwest.com.au>

Thomas, Andre wrote 
>Does any one have their number?

Back before the name change:
PC'S FOR ALL  104 WRAY AVE  FREMANTLE 6160 ........... (08) 9430-9243 

Ask for Ben.

Cheers
Colin


From steveg at calm.wa.gov.au  Tue Sep 12 15:12:54 2000
From: steveg at calm.wa.gov.au (Steve Grasso)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:12:54 +0800
Subject: [plug] Box [off-topic]
In-Reply-To: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE107FFBE@EXCHANGE>
References: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE107FFBE@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <00091215142008.25271@pluto.calm.wa.gov.au>

The shop name is actually "PC's With Purpose", the address is 104 Wray Ave
Fremantle and their phone number is 9430 9243.

Steve


On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Thomas, Andre wrote:
> Does any one have their number?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Grasso [mailto:steveg at calm.wa.gov.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 11:39 AM
> To: plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Subject: Re: [plug] Box [off-topic]
> 
> 
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:
> > > Do you need one perminantly or just for a while (where while is < 2
> > Months)
> > 
> > Permanently.  Needs a network card in it.  A keyboard would be nice
> too.
> 
> If you're still in a fix at 4.00pm today, an option for you would be to
> grab
> about  $120 and hurry down to Computers with Purpose at 104 Wray Ave in
> Freo
> and pick one up.
> 
> Regards,
> Steve (and no, I don't have shares in the shop. I've found them to be a
> reliable source of cheap computers/bits in the past)


From earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com  Tue Sep 12 15:12:06 2000
From: earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com (Earnshaw, Mike)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:12:06 +0800
Subject: [plug] SMB - PPP - NT PDC Auth - tailspin ...
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C1799@EXCHANGE>

Second post. First didn't appear to make it to list. Sorry if it
duplicates

List,

I seem to be stuck! In summary what I am trying to do is use a Linux 6.2
box as a PPP server that authenticates against an NT PDC for user names.

I have installed ppp 2.3.11, got pam_smb-1.1.6.

My mgetty login.conf has:
/AutoPPP/	-	@	/usr/sbin/pppd	auth	login	debug

/etc/pam.d/ppp
auth	required	pam_smb_auth.so

/lib/security
pam_smb_auth.so

/etc/pam.conf
<DOMAIN NAME>
<PDC NAME - which is also in DNS>

When ever I try and dial in, the line is answered but password is
rejected and following /var/log/mesages shows PAP authentication
failure.

This is all very new and I am stumped. Reading the pam_smb help page the
only thing I don't appear to have on my system is pamsmbd [Do I need to
re-compile smb with pam support or something here?]

Help please.

Thanks,

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Mike Earnshaw      | "Nothing is foolproof to a      | e-mail in header
 Computer Systems  |  sufficiently talented fool"    | Tel : +61 8 9256
1099
  Support          |                     Anon.       | Fax : +61 8 9256
1199
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
   ,-._|\    Union Switch & signal
  /      \   24 Bannick Court
  *_.--._/   Canning Vale, WA 6155, Western Australia
        v 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----


From thomasa at wa.switch.aust.com  Tue Sep 12 15:29:59 2000
From: thomasa at wa.switch.aust.com (Thomas, Andre)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:29:59 +0800
Subject: [plug] OT phone number
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE107FFC2@EXCHANGE>

Cheers,

-Andr?


From dagobah at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 12 16:19:23 2000
From: dagobah at mad.scientist.com (Bernard Blackham)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:19:23 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Printtool for debian
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009121613070.2665-100000@bernard>

Hi,

Coming from Red Hat and moving to Debian, I'm still trying to find where
everything is. Is there an equivalent to printtool for Red Hat and
it's magic filters and smb configuration capabilities in Debian 2.2? I
came across a printtool for the woody distribution of Debian, but it
doesnt seem to be included in Debian 2.2 (potato) and the woody deb
package does not install (says corrupted). Is there a tool as nice as
printtool for setting up smb printers for Linux?

Also, this may be a fairly self-answering question... The reason I am
using this is to print to my Windows only printer (argh) from linux. It (a
Canon LBP-660) is currently attached to my machine and always printed
under Windows, sluggishly of course. I can get it to work under Linux by
running a dumbed down version of Windows 98 in VMWare and I can print
PostScript files by feeding them through gs with output as hp laserjet and
print through smbclient to the virtual machine (phew!). Is there a neater
solution? ie, a driver for the LBP-660 for linux? being a Windows only
printer I'm guessing not. I did find a web page where somebody claims to
have got it to work using the laserjet driver, but i'm unable to do the
same. The windows driver supports HP PCL5e emulation (and thus the
laserjet output from gs), but the printer talks it's own raw language. Has
anybody had any success with this?

Thanks,

Bernard.

-- 
 Bernard Blackham
 dagobah at mad.scientist.com



From dagobah at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 12 15:59:22 2000
From: dagobah at mad.scientist.com (Bernard Blackham)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:59:22 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] IP Masquerade - HELP!
In-Reply-To: <41200092122274312@wn.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009121557130.1839-100000@bernard>

John,

I'm not definite if this is the problem, but it may help to specify which
interface to masquerade on:

/sbin/ipchains -A forward -i ppp0 -s 192.168.0.0/24 -j MASQ
                          ^^^^^^^

That's what I currently have in my setup and it works fine.

Hope this helps,

Bernard.

-- 
 Bernard Blackham
 dagobah at mad.scientist.com





From chris at bizzpro.com.au  Tue Sep 12 16:45:22 2000
From: chris at bizzpro.com.au (Chris Crawford)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:45:22 +0800
Subject: [plug] Printtool for debian
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009121613070.2665-100000@bernard>
Message-ID: <39BDED22.ECCFB4C9@bizzpro.com.au>

Hi Bernard
I use apsfilter on Debian 2.2
you can get it from http://www.linuxwa.com.au


Bernard Blackham wrote:


> Hi,
>
> Coming from Red Hat and moving to Debian, I'm still trying to find where
> everything is. Is there an equivalent to printtool for Red Hat and
> it's magic filters and smb configuration capabilities in Debian 2.2? I
> came across a printtool for the woody distribution of Debian, but it
> doesnt seem to be included in Debian 2.2 (potato) and the woody deb
> package does not install (says corrupted). Is there a tool as nice as
> printtool for setting up smb printers for Linux?
>
> Also, this may be a fairly self-answering question... The reason I am
> using this is to print to my Windows only printer (argh) from linux. It (a
> Canon LBP-660) is currently attached to my machine and always printed
> under Windows, sluggishly of course. I can get it to work under Linux by
> running a dumbed down version of Windows 98 in VMWare and I can print
> PostScript files by feeding them through gs with output as hp laserjet and
> print through smbclient to the virtual machine (phew!). Is there a neater
> solution? ie, a driver for the LBP-660 for linux? being a Windows only
> printer I'm guessing not. I did find a web page where somebody claims to
> have got it to work using the laserjet driver, but i'm unable to do the
> same. The windows driver supports HP PCL5e emulation (and thus the
> laserjet output from gs), but the printer talks it's own raw language. Has
> anybody had any success with this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bernard.
>
> --
>  Bernard Blackham
>  dagobah at mad.scientist.com

--
Chris Crawford
IT Manager
Bizzpro
http://www.bizzpro.com.au
ICQ 2835288


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From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Tue Sep 12 17:11:20 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:11:20 +0800
Subject: [plug] IP Masquerade - HELP!
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009121557130.1839-100000@bernard>
Message-ID: <003501c01c99$6c75b000$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

Berny,

Even though my Linux server/gateway is running 5.2 I have found that this
works: (from the NET3-4HOWTO):

Masquerading with IPCHAINS

This is similar to using IPFWADM but the command structure has changed:

             # Network route for ethernet
             route add -net 192.168.1.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 eth0
             #
             # Default route to the rest of the internet.
             route add default ppp0
             #
             # Cause all hosts on the 192.168.1/24 network to be
masqueraded.
             ipchains -A forward -s 192.168.1.0/24 -j MASQ

Of course, you'll need to make sure you put in your private IP if it's
different to the one shown here.

/Kai

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bernard Blackham" <dagobah at mad.scientist.com>
To: "John Breen" <jbreen at wn.com.au>
Cc: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [plug] IP Masquerade - HELP!


> John,
>
> I'm not definite if this is the problem, but it may help to specify which
> interface to masquerade on:
>
> /sbin/ipchains -A forward -i ppp0 -s 192.168.0.0/24 -j MASQ
>                           ^^^^^^^
>
> That's what I currently have in my setup and it works fine.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Bernard.
>
> --
>  Bernard Blackham
>  dagobah at mad.scientist.com
>
>
>
>
>



From gpearson at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 12 16:58:12 2000
From: gpearson at iinet.net.au (Daniel Pearson)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:58:12 +0800
Subject: [plug] inetd.conf on RH 6.2?
Message-ID: <020401c01c97$c90d37e0$0100a8c0@phenoid>

Hi there,
I've just recently installed Red Hat 6.2 and have been wanting to telnet
into the box but /etc/inetd.conf no longer exists, so I can't create an
entry for it? I can see an entry for it in LinuxConf, but there is no
inetd.conf.. :/

Regards
Daniel Pearson



From dagobah at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 12 16:57:43 2000
From: dagobah at mad.scientist.com (Bernard Blackham)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:57:43 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Printtool for debian
In-Reply-To: <39BDED22.ECCFB4C9@bizzpro.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009121649360.3323-100000@bernard>

Chris,

> I use apsfilter on Debian 2.2
> you can get it from http://www.linuxwa.com.au

I have tried it but I found it only supports serial or parallel printers
through lpd. Does it infact support samba remote printers? Or Canon
LBP-660's? It's a windows specific printer and it requires bidirectional
transfers for status updates etc and i doubt it could be handled easily by
lpr alone without a secondary daemon of some sort.

Bernard.

-- 
 Bernard Blackham
 dagobah at mad.scientist.com






From tony at cantech.net.au  Tue Sep 12 17:16:00 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:16:00 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] inetd.conf on RH 6.2?
In-Reply-To: <020401c01c97$c90d37e0$0100a8c0@phenoid>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009121715440.659-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Daniel Pearson wrote:

> Hi there,
> I've just recently installed Red Hat 6.2 and have been wanting to telnet
> into the box but /etc/inetd.conf no longer exists, so I can't create an
> entry for it? I can see an entry for it in LinuxConf, but there is no
> inetd.conf.. :/

You need to install inetd-0.16-4.i386.rpm

Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From gpearson at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 12 17:35:19 2000
From: gpearson at iinet.net.au (Daniel Pearson)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:35:19 +0800
Subject: [plug] inetd.conf on RH 6.2?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009121715440.659-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>
Message-ID: <021801c01c9c$f5c554c0$0100a8c0@phenoid>

Hi,
I installed that as well, I even rebooted the machine but it still didn't
seem to be there... I guess I'll just try again

Regards
Daniel Pearson

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima <tony at cantech.net.au>
To: Daniel Pearson <gpearson at iinet.net.au>
Cc: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [plug] inetd.conf on RH 6.2?


> On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Daniel Pearson wrote:
>
> > Hi there,
> > I've just recently installed Red Hat 6.2 and have been wanting to telnet
> > into the box but /etc/inetd.conf no longer exists, so I can't create an
> > entry for it? I can see an entry for it in LinuxConf, but there is no
> > inetd.conf.. :/
>
> You need to install inetd-0.16-4.i386.rpm
>
> Yours Tony.
>
> /*
>  * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the
>  * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
>  * --Albert Einstein
>  */
>
>
>



From michael at harvestroad.com  Tue Sep 12 19:52:48 2000
From: michael at harvestroad.com (Michael De Santis)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:52:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] RPM kernel Upgrade
Message-ID: <39BE1910.FA933B9@harvestroad.com.au>


Hi,

I am having trouble upgrading to the latest Red Hat kernel using the RPM

command. Even though it completes without any error messages I find that

the new kernel has installed correctly.

I would appreciate it if someone could e-mail the correct rpm command
switches for an rpm upgrade.

Cheers
Michael



From billk at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 12 20:02:28 2000
From: billk at iinet.net.au (BillK)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 20:02:28 +0800
Subject: [plug] IP Masquerade - HELP!
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009121557130.1839-100000@bernard> <003501c01c99$6c75b000$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>
Message-ID: <39BE1B54.5CFB38BD@iinet.net.au>

John,
	skip around the problem and get pmfirewall.  Its an adaptive script
that asks what you want done (masq, what ports blocked/enabled) and then
reads interfaces etc to build the ipchains ruleset and load the required
kernel modules.  It can also be manually adjusted after setup and the
config files are easy to understand - seems to be getting good reviews
from what I have read, and my results (on Mandrake) have been all I
wanted.  You can also use it to get things up and running, and use it as
an example/base for your own rules.

BillK


From satyr at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 12 21:19:44 2000
From: satyr at iinet.net.au (Matt)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:19:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] Printers [ STAR & CANON]
Message-ID: <39BE2D6F.81AA39E7@iinet.net.au>

Hey all,

I was just wondering which is the best filter to use for a STAR LC24-200
Colour dot matrix and a CANON BJC-4200?

Thanks in advance

Matt



From billk at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 12 21:34:12 2000
From: billk at iinet.net.au (BillK)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:34:12 +0800
Subject: [plug] Printers [ STAR & CANON]
References: <39BE2D6F.81AA39E7@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39BE30D4.A7507D8F@iinet.net.au>

I use the bjc-600/4000 for general printing with my bjc-620 - works
reliably.  For fancier printing (transparencies, 720dpi etc), look at
the bjc-610u series - worked well before I upgraded last time, but have
not had a reason to set up yet.  Believe the 600/4000 series are largely
driver compatible.

BillK


Matt wrote:
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> I was just wondering which is the best filter to use for a STAR LC24-200
> Colour dot matrix and a CANON BJC-4200?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Matt


From Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au  Tue Sep 12 21:45:26 2000
From: Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:45:26 +0800
Subject: [plug] RPM kernel Upgrade
In-Reply-To: <39BE1910.FA933B9@harvestroad.com.au>
Message-ID: <NDBBKJLCGDKIONEINKJACEIFCHAA.Jeremy@Malcolm.wattle.id.au>

> I am having trouble upgrading to the latest Red Hat kernel using the RPM
> command. Even though it completes without any error messages I find that
> the new kernel has installed correctly.

Uh, and that's a problem because...?

Assuming you meant "not" then are you sure you are not just installing the
kernel sources, which you then have to compile yourself?

cd /usr/src/linux [make sure the symlink is there and up-to-date]
make mrproper
make menuconfig
make dep
make bzlilo
make modules
make modules_install
reboot

--
Independent consulting solicitor* | _ .__ ._ _    |\/| _.| _ _ |._ _
and technology consultant.**    \_|(/_|(/_| | |\/ |  |(_||(_(_)|| | |
Personal site: http://malcolm.wattle.id.au     /   Finger for GPG key
* http://www.ilaw.com.au ** http://www.terminus.net.au jm at ilaw.com.au



From Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au  Tue Sep 12 22:15:19 2000
From: Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:15:19 +0800
Subject: [plug] Printtool for debian
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009121613070.2665-100000@bernard>
Message-ID: <NDBBKJLCGDKIONEINKJAEEIGCHAA.Jeremy@Malcolm.wattle.id.au>

> Is there a tool as nice as
> printtool for setting up smb printers for Linux?

Yes, Corel has one in its rebadged Debian distro.

-- 
Independent consulting solicitor* | _ .__ ._ _    |\/| _.| _ _ |._ _
and technology consultant.**    \_|(/_|(/_| | |\/ |  |(_||(_(_)|| | |
Personal site: http://malcolm.wattle.id.au     /   Finger for GPG key
* http://www.ilaw.com.au ** http://www.terminus.net.au jm at ilaw.com.au


From Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au  Tue Sep 12 22:15:21 2000
From: Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:15:21 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mac -> Linux? - long!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000911094655.18277A-100000@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <NDBBKJLCGDKIONEINKJAGEIGCHAA.Jeremy@Malcolm.wattle.id.au>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> Our client management system has been developed on FileMaker for
> Mac.   

Another solution you could consider would be to have *one* Windows
machine on your network running FileMaker with its Web server module,
and you could access the FileMaker database over the Web from Linux
clients (or any Web-enabled clients).  Depending on how recent your
version of FileMaker is, the Web interface is not half bad.

- -- 
Independent consulting solicitor* | _ .__ ._ _    |\/| _.| _ _ |._ _
and technology consultant.**    \_|(/_|(/_| | |\/ |  |(_||(_(_)|| | |
Personal site: http://malcolm.wattle.id.au     /   Finger for GPG key
* http://www.ilaw.com.au ** http://www.terminus.net.au jm at ilaw.com.au

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From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep 13 00:03:08 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:03:08 +0800
Subject: [plug] Ulysses ISO best mirror
References: <39BDB458.A0D3CC33@cclinic.com.au>
Message-ID: <39BE53BC.57BF1FCC@brooks.smileys.net>

Garth Atkinson wrote:
> Where is the best place to download the Mandrake 7.2b ISO images
> from?

Apparently, Chris Crawford has some in Hilton. I'll be fetching some tomorrow or
Thursday, if all goes as planned.

-- 
I am returning this otherwise good typing paper to you because
someone has printed gibberish all over it and put your name at
the top. -- English Professor, Ohio University


From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Wed Sep 13 00:10:36 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:10:36 +0800
Subject: [plug] inetd.conf on RH 6.2?
In-Reply-To: <021801c01c9c$f5c554c0$0100a8c0@phenoid>; from gpearson@iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 05:35:19PM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009121715440.659-100000@thor.cantech.net.au> <021801c01c9c$f5c554c0$0100a8c0@phenoid>
Message-ID: <20000913001036.A853@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

G'day Daniel,

On Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 05:35:19PM +0800, Daniel Pearson wrote:
> ... I even rebooted the machine ...
<snip>

Sounds like a "windows" trick to get things working.



Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From satyr at iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 13 07:23:31 2000
From: satyr at iinet.net.au (Matt)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:23:31 +0800
Subject: [plug] Printers [ STAR & CANON]
References: <39BE2D6F.81AA39E7@iinet.net.au> <39BE30D4.A7507D8F@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39BEBAF3.64BBACD1@iinet.net.au>

BillK wrote:

> I use the bjc-600/4000 for general printing with my bjc-620 - works
> reliably.  For fancier printing (transparencies, 720dpi etc), look at
> the bjc-610u series - worked well before I upgraded last time, but have
> not had a reason to set up yet.  Believe the 600/4000 series are largely
> driver compatible.
>
> BillK
>
> Matt wrote:
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> > I was just wondering which is the best filter to use for a STAR LC24-200
> > Colour dot matrix and a CANON BJC-4200?
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
> > Matt

Thanks :)

Matt



From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Wed Sep 13 16:17:05 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:17:05 +0800
Subject: [plug] [ot] contracting work
Message-ID: <20000913161705.D853@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

G'day People,

Sorry, but this one is off topic... Replies should be sent directly to me:

I need some help understanding what should go into a work contract (this topic
came up earlier about Intellectual Property). Some people on this list do
contracting, do you have a standard contract (as in you use, not standard as
in all contractors use) that I could take a look at?

What areas should I look at being covered?


Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From jbreen at wn.com.au  Thu Sep 14 09:50:23 2000
From: jbreen at wn.com.au (John Breen)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:50:23 +0800
Subject: [plug] Subscribing...
Message-ID: <412000941415023750@wn.com.au>

Sorry, I forget who maintains the list...

I'm trying to subscribe john at fairport.com.au by e-mail to 

plug-request at plug.linux.org.au

, without any success.
|
| John Breen
|
| jbreen at wn.com.au
| john at fairport.com.au
|
| "Do not worry, Arthur Dent.  Be afraid.  Be VERY afraid."
| Agrajag, "Life, the Universe and Everything"
|



From zombie at wasp.net.au  Thu Sep 14 09:56:20 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:56:20 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Subscribing...
In-Reply-To: <412000941415023750@wn.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000914095338.6668E-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, John Breen wrote:

> Sorry, I forget who maintains the list...

That would be me
 
> I'm trying to subscribe john at fairport.com.au by e-mail to 
> plug-request at plug.linux.org.au
> without any success.
>
> | jbreen at wn.com.au
> | john at fairport.com.au

The problem is the listserver is getting confused by the fact you also
have "jbreen at wn.com.au" in your signature, and it's trying to process
that, and concludes you are already subscribed to the list.

 - Matt



From earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com  Thu Sep 14 10:15:31 2000
From: earnshawm at wa.switch.aust.com (Earnshaw, Mike)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:15:31 +0800
Subject: [plug] ppp + authentication
Message-ID: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C17A8@EXCHANGE>

List,

Not sure where I am going now with this problem. So far I have managed
to use pam_smb with console logins but with ppp I it appears to be still
using /etc/passwd.

In both of ppp and login in /etc/pam.d I have the entry:

auth	required	/lib/security/pam_smb_auth.so

I have the pam_smb.conf in /etc so:

<domain name>
<pdc name>

The <pdc name> is recorded in /etc/hosts.

I have tried using the 'show-password' option for pppd in
/etc/mgetty../login.conf but the password does not appear to be recorded
in /var/log/mgetty.ttyS4 even though I have the debug level set to 8.

With ppp connections if the /etc/passwd file has an associated passwd
for the user it connects, but when I replace the ':x:' with ':*:' {go
get the info from the PDC} it gives a PAP auth failure. Yet with a
console login it works OK. This is verified by changing the password at
the PDC and then trying to console login with the old password {fails}
then the new password {accepted}

I am really not sure where to look now. Any pointers please? 

Thanks,

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Mike Earnshaw      | "Nothing is foolproof to a      | e-mail in header
 Computer Systems  |  sufficiently talented fool"    | Tel : +61 8 9256
1099
  Support          |                     Anon.       | Fax : +61 8 9256
1199
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
   ,-._|\    Union Switch & signal
  /      \   24 Bannick Court
  *_.--._/   Canning Vale, WA 6155, Western Australia
        v 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----


From tony at cantech.net.au  Thu Sep 14 10:27:29 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:27:29 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] ppp + authentication
In-Reply-To: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C17A8@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009141023400.10725-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Earnshaw, Mike wrote:

> Not sure where I am going now with this problem. So far I have managed
> to use pam_smb with console logins but with ppp I it appears to be still
> using /etc/passwd.

<snip>

> I am really not sure where to look now. Any pointers please? 

Try nOT useinf PAP.  Take out the line for autoppp in mgetty.conf.   Then set
thew windows machine to display a post dial terminal window.

Then you'll be useing /bin/login instead of the PAP stuff in ppp.   I know
it's a sub optimal solution BUT it may work.


Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From gherardi at ark.cs.curtin.edu.au  Thu Sep 14 11:45:26 2000
From: gherardi at ark.cs.curtin.edu.au (Carl Gherardi)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:45:26 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Redhat passwords - max 8 chars!?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009141141190.8031-100000@ark.cs.curtin.edu.au>

Something i noticed a while ago.

All my passwords are at least 9 chars long, and i made a typo on the 10th
char one day, and redhat(6.1) let me in.

So after a bit of testing i found that at least the redhat distro ingnores
everything but the first 8 chars of a password.

Is this the same across all distros? I tested this on freeBSD and it
rejects me..

and why would this be?

Thanks

Carl



From tony at cantech.net.au  Thu Sep 14 11:49:56 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:49:56 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Redhat passwords - max 8 chars!?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009141141190.8031-100000@ark.cs.curtin.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009141147010.10725-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Carl Gherardi wrote:

> Something i noticed a while ago.
> 
> All my passwords are at least 9 chars long, and i made a typo on the 10th
> char one day, and redhat(6.1) let me in.
> 
> So after a bit of testing i found that at least the redhat distro ingnores
> everything but the first 8 chars of a password.
> 
> Is this the same across all distros? I tested this on freeBSD and it
> rejects me..
> 
> and why would this be?

IIRC that behaviour hasd been inherited from older crypt libraries.  Newer
ones should be able to have longer passwords.  I believe that if you turn 
on MD5 passwords to use long passwords.


Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From griffith at environ.wa.gov.au  Thu Sep 14 12:08:16 2000
From: griffith at environ.wa.gov.au (David Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 12:08:16 +0800
Subject: [plug] Redhat passwords - max 8 chars!?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009141141190.8031-100000@ark.cs.curtin.edu.au>
Message-ID: <00Sep14.115653wst.119046@epagate.environ.wa.gov.au>

>Something i noticed a while ago.
>
>All my passwords are at least 9 chars long, and i made a typo on the 10th
>char one day, and redhat(6.1) let me in.
>
>So after a bit of testing i found that at least the redhat distro ingnores
>everything but the first 8 chars of a password.
>
>Is this the same across all distros? I tested this on freeBSD and it
>rejects me..
>
>and why would this be?
>
>Thanks
>
>Carl

Carl this is a limitation of the old style unix password encryption.

If you run authconfig (with recent versions of Red Hat) it will give you
the option of using MD5 encryption which allows many more characters (can't
recall of hand how many).

It also gives you the option of using shadow passwords which are a good
idea, and will convert the password file for you transparently.

cheers,

Dave



 ========================================================================

  David Griffiths                             griffith at environ.wa.gov.au

  Air Quality Management Branch
  Department of Environmental Protection          Phone:   61 8 9222 7151

  Westralia Square                                Fax  :   61 8 9321 5184
  141 St Georges Tce
  Perth 6000
  Western Australia
 ========================================================================




From christian at amnet.net.au  Thu Sep 14 11:56:21 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:56:21 +0800
Subject: [plug] Redhat passwords - max 8 chars!?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009141141190.8031-100000@ark.cs.curtin.edu.au>; from gherardi@ark.cs.curtin.edu.au on Thu, Sep 14, 2000 at 11:45:26AM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009141141190.8031-100000@ark.cs.curtin.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20000914115621.K16639@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Thu, Sep 14, 2000 at 11:45:26AM +0800, Carl Gherardi wrote:
> Something i noticed a while ago.
> 
> All my passwords are at least 9 chars long, and i made a typo on the 10th
> char one day, and redhat(6.1) let me in.
> So after a bit of testing i found that at least the redhat distro ingnores
> everything but the first 8 chars of a password.
> Is this the same across all distros? I tested this on freeBSD and it
> rejects me..
> and why would this be?

Your distribution is using a DES style crypt().  DES has a 56-bit key.
Given 7-bit ASCII, 8 characters is the maximum that can be used to
construct the key (7 x 8 = 56).  If you want longer passwords you'll
need to use MD5 hashing instead which allows up to 128 character
passwords and is a little better in that it is more computationally
expensive than DES-crypt()'s.  I thought recent versions of Red Hat used
MD5 by default but since I don't use Red Hat much I can't say for sure.
Either way you can change it by switching it on in /etc/login.defs or by
editing the appropriate PAM configuration file.

Regards,

Christian.


From christian at amnet.net.au  Thu Sep 14 11:57:35 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:57:35 +0800
Subject: [plug] Redhat passwords - max 8 chars!?
In-Reply-To: <00Sep14.115653wst.119046@epagate.environ.wa.gov.au>; from griffith@environ.wa.gov.au on Thu, Sep 14, 2000 at 12:08:16PM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009141141190.8031-100000@ark.cs.curtin.edu.au> <00Sep14.115653wst.119046@epagate.environ.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20000914115735.L16639@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Thu, Sep 14, 2000 at 12:08:16PM +0800, David Griffiths wrote:
 
> Carl this is a limitation of the old style unix password encryption.

Technically it's hashing, not encryption.  The passwords are not stored
on a Unix system at all, either encrypted or in plaintext. :-)


From griffith at environ.wa.gov.au  Thu Sep 14 13:12:16 2000
From: griffith at environ.wa.gov.au (David Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 13:12:16 +0800
Subject: [plug] Redhat passwords - max 8 chars!?
In-Reply-To: <20000914115735.L16639@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00Sep14.130052wst.119041@epagate.environ.wa.gov.au>

>On Thu, Sep 14, 2000 at 12:08:16PM +0800, David Griffiths wrote:
>
>> Carl this is a limitation of the old style unix password encryption.
>
>Technically it's hashing,

good point.


>not encryption.

Are you sure about this definition? Is not a hash simply one way encryption?
(quoting from linux security HOWTO)

cheers,

Dave.



 ========================================================================

  David Griffiths                             griffith at environ.wa.gov.au

  Air Quality Management Branch
  Department of Environmental Protection          Phone:   61 8 9222 7151

  Westralia Square                                Fax  :   61 8 9321 5184
  141 St Georges Tce
  Perth 6000
  Western Australia
 ========================================================================




From batesy at rave.iinet.net.au  Thu Sep 14 13:31:57 2000
From: batesy at rave.iinet.net.au (Jonathon Bates)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 13:31:57 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Updating Sendmail
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009141328340.25264-100000@rave.iinet.net.au>

Hi People,
I have a quick question.
When you upgrade sendmail, firstly you would stop sendmail correcT?
/etc/..... sendmail stop
then basically get the source of the latest version, un tar it and compile
it?
Or do I need to remove the older version sendmail?
Any help is greatly appreciated!

Cheers
Batesy
--
Jonathon Bates 
"No pain is worse than that of giving in."



From zombie at wasp.net.au  Thu Sep 14 13:51:21 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 13:51:21 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Updating Sendmail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009141328340.25264-100000@rave.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000914134618.6668F-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jonathon Bates wrote:

> Hi People,
> I have a quick question.
> When you upgrade sendmail, firstly you would stop sendmail correcT?
> /etc/..... sendmail stop
> then basically get the source of the latest version, un tar it and compile
> it?

Really the best way to upgrade would be to have your distribution do it
for you.

ie with RedHat & derivatives, download the appropriate rpm file and use
the -U (upgrade) command for rpm to install it.

With Debian & derivatives, type "apt-get update;apt-get install sendmail"
and it will download & install the latest version for you, providing apt
it set up correctly, otherwise download the .deb file and run
"dpkg -i <debfile>"

If you're not running a distro that has automated package management, then
you'll have to do it the way you suggested.

 - Matt



From christian at amnet.net.au  Thu Sep 14 14:28:48 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:28:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] Redhat passwords - max 8 chars!?
In-Reply-To: <00Sep14.130052wst.119041@epagate.environ.wa.gov.au>; from griffith@environ.wa.gov.au on Thu, Sep 14, 2000 at 01:12:16PM +0800
References: <20000914115735.L16639@eagle.amnet.net.au> <00Sep14.130052wst.119041@epagate.environ.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20000914142848.M16639@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Thu, Sep 14, 2000 at 01:12:16PM +0800, David Griffiths wrote:
> >Technically it's hashing,
> 
> good point.
> 
> >not encryption.
> 
> Are you sure about this definition? Is not a hash simply one way encryption?
> (quoting from linux security HOWTO)

Absolutely positive.  A cryptographic (or "one-way") hash function
(which is specifically what we're talking about in this case) converts
input data of arbitrary length (typically less than 2^64 bytes) into a
fixed length output (typically between 16 and 32 bytes) with two key
properties, namely a) the chance of collision (i.e., two inputs giving
the same hash) is infintessimally small, even withstanding manipulation
of the inputs by an attacker and b) there is no feasible way of
reversing the operation such that the input can be determined by the
output.

Encryption on the other hand, by definition, is a reversible process
(hence the pairing of encryption/decryption).  It involves combining one
piece of data (the "key") with the data to be encrypted ("plaintext")
in a well-defined manner (the "algorithm" or "cipher") resulting in some
output ("ciphertext").  Note that the ciphertext will typically be of a
similar size to the plaintext (nearly always bigger).

Describing hashing as one-way encryption is probably a suitable way of
explaining the concept to someone in a very loose and non-technical way
but it's still incorrect since the processes involved are very
different.

Regards,

Christian.



From griffith at environ.wa.gov.au  Thu Sep 14 15:53:09 2000
From: griffith at environ.wa.gov.au (David Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:53:09 +0800
Subject: [plug] Redhat passwords - max 8 chars!?
In-Reply-To: <20000914142848.M16639@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00Sep14.154150wst.119043@epagate.environ.wa.gov.au>

>> Are you sure about this definition? Is not a hash simply one way encryption?
>> (quoting from linux security HOWTO)
>
>Absolutely positive.  A cryptographic (or "one-way") hash function
>(which is specifically what we're talking about in this case) converts
>input data of arbitrary length (typically less than 2^64 bytes) into a
>fixed length output (typically between 16 and 32 bytes) with two key
>properties, namely a) the chance of collision (i.e., two inputs giving
>the same hash) is infintessimally small, even withstanding manipulation
>of the inputs by an attacker and b) there is no feasible way of
>reversing the operation such that the input can be determined by the
>output.
>
>Encryption on the other hand, by definition, is a reversible process
>(hence the pairing of encryption/decryption).  It involves combining one
>piece of data (the "key") with the data to be encrypted ("plaintext")
>in a well-defined manner (the "algorithm" or "cipher") resulting in some
>output ("ciphertext").  Note that the ciphertext will typically be of a
>similar size to the plaintext (nearly always bigger).
>

Ah <nods sagely>. If I understand you correctly then the important
distinction then is not so much the "one-way-ness/reversibility" of hashes
(which in principle can succumb to brute force methods for reversal) as the
_non-uniqueness_ of input data giving rise to the hash (implying the brute
force reversal results will probably be meaningless if the collision space
is large enough).

If the mapping between input text and possible hashes is unique with
precisely zero chance of collision, (input data space would have to be
stricly limited to be less than or equal to hash space) does the hash then
also fulfill the definition of encryption? Does the DES hashing of 8 char
unix passwords have a 1 to 1 mapping?

Hey you're shaking up a few brain cells here Christian! I haven't thought
about this stuff for ages :-)

cheers,

Dave




From christian at amnet.net.au  Thu Sep 14 16:08:15 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 16:08:15 +0800
Subject: [plug] Redhat passwords - max 8 chars!?
In-Reply-To: <00Sep14.154150wst.119043@epagate.environ.wa.gov.au>; from griffith@environ.wa.gov.au on Thu, Sep 14, 2000 at 03:53:09PM +0800
References: <20000914142848.M16639@eagle.amnet.net.au> <00Sep14.154150wst.119043@epagate.environ.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20000914160815.N16639@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Thu, Sep 14, 2000 at 03:53:09PM +0800, David Griffiths wrote:
 
> Ah <nods sagely>. If I understand you correctly then the important
> distinction then is not so much the "one-way-ness/reversibility" of hashes
> (which in principle can succumb to brute force methods for reversal) as the
> _non-uniqueness_ of input data giving rise to the hash (implying the brute
> force reversal results will probably be meaningless if the collision space
> is large enough).

Well, I guess the important distinction is that you can't really
"reverse" (as such) a hash.  You can make a guess at the pre-image
(which is what you're referring to by "brute force methods for
reversal") but this isn't anything like a brute-force known
plaintext/ciphertext attack on a cipher.  The main reason for this is
that there is no key involved in the hashing process.  Just some input,
a the hashing algorithm and the fixed-length output.  The output is
a unique (within the range of the length of the hash output) fingerprint
of the input but there is no way of "reversing" it as such.  On the
other hand, a cipher has a way of reversing it -- a key.  This is what I
would be stressing in terms of explaining the difference between a
one-way hash function and encryption.

> If the mapping between input text and possible hashes is unique with
> precisely zero chance of collision, (input data space would have to be
> stricly limited to be less than or equal to hash space) does the hash then
> also fulfill the definition of encryption? Does the DES hashing of 8 char
> unix passwords have a 1 to 1 mapping?

There won't ever be precisely zero chance of collision but the
probability can be so tiny that zero is close enough for *most* intents
and purposes.  For example strong 160-bit hash algorirthms are
considered to be secure against birthday attacks so this is almost
equivalent to saying that the chance is virually zero.  Either way, the
hash will never been the definition of encryption because it doesn't
have a key.  A hash is not meant to be reversible, a cipher is.

For your next question, if I understand you correctly, there isn't a
one-to-one mapping of DES crypt() passwords to the hash output because
these passwords include a 12-bit salt (makes 4096 possible outputs to
one input of the hash function).  If you took away the salt then hashing
the same password would give the same output (and this is necessarily
true of any hash function).  Am I understanding your question correctly?

> Hey you're shaking up a few brain cells here Christian! I haven't thought
> about this stuff for ages :-)

Lucky you, I think about it all the time. :P

Regards,

Christian.


From griffith at environ.wa.gov.au  Thu Sep 14 17:37:58 2000
From: griffith at environ.wa.gov.au (David Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 17:37:58 +0800
Subject: [plug] Redhat passwords - max 8 chars!?
In-Reply-To: <20000914160815.N16639@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00Sep14.172634wst.119043@epagate.environ.wa.gov.au>

On Thu, Sep 14, 2000 Christian wrote:

>
>For your next question, if I understand you correctly, there isn't a
>one-to-one mapping of DES crypt() passwords to the hash output because
>these passwords include a 12-bit salt (makes 4096 possible outputs to
>one input of the hash function).  If you took away the salt then hashing
>the same password would give the same output (and this is necessarily
>true of any hash function).
> Am I understanding your question correctly?
>
Pretty well - I had long forgotten about the function of salts - thanks for
reminding me. The question was perhaps more to do with the size of the
collision space. But you've already answered that question above (in a
deleted paragraph).

Thanks for the comments!

cheers,

Dave.




From ian.kent at pobox.com  Wed Sep 13 22:27:48 2000
From: ian.kent at pobox.com (raven)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:27:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] inetd.conf on RH 6.2?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009121715440.659-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>
Message-ID: <39BF8EE4.655ED053@raven.bogus>

"Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima" wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Daniel Pearson wrote:
>
> > Hi there,
> > I've just recently installed Red Hat 6.2 and have been wanting to telnet
> > into the box but /etc/inetd.conf no longer exists, so I can't create an
> > entry for it? I can see an entry for it in LinuxConf, but there is no
> > inetd.conf.. :/
>
> You need to install inetd-0.16-4.i386.rpm
>

/etc/inetd.conf is in fact in this package. If you cannot find it then you have not reinstalled the package correctly or you are looking in the wrong place somehow.

--
   ,-._|\    Ian Kent
  /      \   Perth, Western Australia
  *_.--._/   E-mail: ian.kent at pobox.com, raven at plug.linux.org.au
        v    Web: http://pobox.com/~ian.kent





From gpearson at iinet.net.au  Thu Sep 14 18:09:51 2000
From: gpearson at iinet.net.au (Daniel Pearson)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 18:09:51 +0800
Subject: [plug] inetd.conf on RH 6.2?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009121715440.659-100000@thor.cantech.net.au> <39BF8EE4.655ED053@raven.bogus>
Message-ID: <02f101c01e34$1ab24fc0$0100a8c0@phenoid>

I installed it again, and it worked - its not there. One small problem now
however, I can't ping/telnet/ftp/traceroute or anything to the box.. it all
just times out, but before the reinstall everything worked fine..

Daniel

----- Original Message -----
From: raven <ian.kent at pobox.com>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: [plug] inetd.conf on RH 6.2?


> "Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima" wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Daniel Pearson wrote:
> >
> > > Hi there,
> > > I've just recently installed Red Hat 6.2 and have been wanting to
telnet
> > > into the box but /etc/inetd.conf no longer exists, so I can't create
an
> > > entry for it? I can see an entry for it in LinuxConf, but there is no
> > > inetd.conf.. :/
> >
> > You need to install inetd-0.16-4.i386.rpm
> >
>
> /etc/inetd.conf is in fact in this package. If you cannot find it then you
have not reinstalled the package correctly or you are looking in the wrong
place somehow.
>
> --
>    ,-._|\    Ian Kent
>   /      \   Perth, Western Australia
>   *_.--._/   E-mail: ian.kent at pobox.com, raven at plug.linux.org.au
>         v    Web: http://pobox.com/~ian.kent
>
>
>
>
>



From dagobah at mad.scientist.com  Thu Sep 14 18:17:15 2000
From: dagobah at mad.scientist.com (Bernard Blackham)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 18:17:15 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Compiling KDE 1.1.2
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009141803520.26468-100000@bernard>

List,

I am trying to compile and install KDE 1.1.2 on my Debain 2.2 machine, and
compiling from the source tgz's. I have installed Qt 2.2.0 source and
binaries which seem to work fine. I've compiled and installed the
kdesupport libs easily enough. When it comes to the kdelibs themselves,
they tend to spew errors that seem to be about the Qt libraries or
headers:

---BEGIN CUT---

make all-recursive make[1]: Entering directory `/usr/src/kdelibs-1.1.2'
Making all in kdecore make[2]: Entering directory
`/usr/src/kdelibs-1.1.2/kdecore' /bin/sh ../libtool --silent
--mode=compile g++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I.. -I/usr/local/qt/include
-O2 -Wall -c kconfigbase.cpp kconfigbase.cpp: In method `const class
QString KConfigBase::readEntry(const char *, const char * = 0) const':
kconfigbase.cpp:382: no matching function for call to `QString::detach ()'
kconfigbase.cpp:394: `class QCharRef' used where a `int' was expected
kconfigbase.cpp: In method `void KConfigBase::writeEntry(const char *,
QStrList &, char = ',', bool = true, bool = false, bool = false)':
kconfigbase.cpp:894: call of overloaded `writeEntry(const char *&, QString
&, bool &, bool &, bool &)' is ambiguous kconfigbase.cpp:808: candidates
are: const char * KConfigBase::writeEntry(const char *, const char *, bool
= true, bool = false, bool = false) kconfigbase.h:543:  const char *
KConfigBase::writeEntry(const char *, bool, bool = true, bool = false,
bool = false) kconfigbase.h:561:  const char *
KConfigBase::writeEntry(const char *, const QFont &, bool = true, bool =
false, bool = false) kconfigbase.h:579:  void
KConfigBase::writeEntry(const char *, const QColor &, bool = true, bool =
false, bool = false) 
.
.
.
make[2]: *** [kconfigbase.lo] Error 1 make[2]:
Leaving directory `/usr/src/kdelibs-1.1.2/kdecore' make[1]: ***
[all-recursive] Error 1 make[1]: Leaving directory
`/usr/src/kdelibs-1.1.2' make: *** [all-recursive-am] Error 2

---END CUT---

the . . . is a tonne of similar messages about amiguities in the function
prototypes all referred from in kconfigbase.h/cpp. I'm guessing by the Q's
there's something wrong with my Qt library? I can't seem to find any joy
in the KDE web pages, FAQs, installation notes, etc.
Can anybody shed any light on the source of my problems please?

Thanks,

Bernard.

--
 Bernard Blackham
 dagobah at mad.scientist.com



From tclark at telia.com  Thu Sep 14 19:52:23 2000
From: tclark at telia.com (Tony Clark)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 13:52:23 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [plug] Compiling KDE 1.1.2
Message-ID: <200009141152.NAA29448@d1o901.telia.com>


quoting Bernard Blackham <dagobah at mad.scientist.com>:

> List,
> 
> I am trying to compile and install KDE 1.1.2 on my Debain 2.2 
machine, and
> compiling from the source tgz's. I have installed Qt 2.2.0 source and
> binaries which seem to work fine. I've compiled and installed the
> kdesupport libs easily enough. When it comes to the kdelibs 
themselves,
> they tend to spew errors that seem to be about the Qt libraries or
> headers:
> 
Sure KDE 1.1.2 doesn't require the Qt1.44 libs..think it may do. 

tony

Contract Digital Design
Mobile +46 702 894 667


From dagobah at mad.scientist.com  Thu Sep 14 20:04:25 2000
From: dagobah at mad.scientist.com (Bernard Blackham)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:04:25 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Compiling KDE 1.1.2
In-Reply-To: <200009141152.NAA29448@d1o901.telia.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009141952500.28999-100000@bernard>


> Sure KDE 1.1.2 doesn't require the Qt1.44 libs..think it may do. 

They recommend something like at least Qt1.44, but perhaps the 2.2.0 libs
are too much. Is it possible to get the 2 versions of qt libs running in
parallel? I will try it, but does anybody know if its definitely possible
or not?

Bernard.

-- 
 Bernard Blackham
 dagobah at mad.scientist.com





From zombie at wasp.net.au  Thu Sep 14 20:23:49 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:23:49 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Compiling KDE 1.1.2
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000914202125.6668J-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

Bernard Blackham wrote:

> Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:04:25 +0800 (WST)
> From: Bernard Blackham <dagobah at mad.scientist.com>
> Reply-To: plug at plug.linux.org.au
> To: Tony Clark <tclark at telia.com>
> Cc: plug at plug.linux.org.au, plug at plug.linux.org.au,
> plug at plug.linux.org.au,
> plug-request at plug.linux.org.au

Bernard, why are you sending your messages to plug at plug twice, and once to
plug-request at plug?

> > Sure KDE 1.1.2 doesn't require the Qt1.44 libs..think it may do. 

> They recommend something like at least Qt1.44, but perhaps the 2.2.0
> libs
> are too much.

Alternative to trying to compile it yourself, have you considered
installing the kde .deb packages from Debian-woody?

Sounds like it would save you a lot of hassle.. :)

 - Matt



From Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au  Thu Sep 14 22:23:27 2000
From: Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:23:27 +0800
Subject: [plug] [ot] contracting work
Message-ID: <NDBBKJLCGDKIONEINKJACEIOCHAA.Jeremy@Malcolm.wattle.id.au>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Jason Nicholls wrote:

> I need some help understanding what should go into a work contract 
> (this topic came up earlier about Intellectual Property). Some
> people on this list do contracting, do you have a standard contract
> (as in you use, not standard as in all contractors use) that I
> could take a look at?

Sheesh what are you trying to do, put me out of business? :-) 

> What areas should I look at being covered?
  
Ownership of IP, confidentiality, restraint of trade (exclusivity or
non), subcontracting, nature of relationship, reimbursement of
expenses (or not), tax/super/insurance, nature of duties, nature of
relationship (not employment), termination, liability... amongst
others, but those are definitely some of the most important.

- -- 
Independent consulting solicitor* | _ .__ ._ _    |\/| _.| _ _ |._ _
and technology consultant.**    \_|(/_|(/_| | |\/ |  |(_||(_(_)|| | |
Personal site: http://malcolm.wattle.id.au     /   Finger for GPG key
* http://www.ilaw.com.au ** http://www.terminus.net.au jm at ilaw.com.au

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Personal Privacy 6.5.3

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From gmalcolm at cygnus.uwa.edu.au  Fri Sep 15 11:10:58 2000
From: gmalcolm at cygnus.uwa.edu.au (Grant Malcolm)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:10:58 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Mac -> Linux?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBKJLCGDKIONEINKJAGEIGCHAA.Jeremy@Malcolm.wattle.id.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000913104127.23143D-100000@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>

Thanks everyone, for the contributions - a couple of additional detailed
ones generously provided off-list - and my apologies for the delay in
responding.

To recap, we're not in a position of trying to edge out existing systems. 
They're all going. If we're swapping one OS for another, why shouldn't we
swap Mac for Linux?

I'm reassured that it's entirely possible to deliver what we need with
open source software. What i lack is the ability to draw together any
coherent solution from the multitude of possibilities.

I'm just hoping that someone who freelances in this area may be prepared
to quote for the job. If they can work the miracle - have us change over
to Linux rather than MS - then there'd be the associated installation,
configuration and maybe a support contract of some description available
as the honeypot.

The catch is that there is an existing systems consultant already
contracted to undertake a systems audit and develop specifications. I was
(naively?) surprised to find that open source software was not part of
this person's language. 

I'm not looking for someone to "white ant" this guy, but i'd like to see
that something beyond off the shelf MS products is given serious
consideration as an option. Anyone offering to quote would need to work
through the systems consultant, rather than directly with our
organisation.

So, let me know if you are interested and as soon i have some specs from
this guy, i'll mail out some copies.

Cheers
Grant

------------------------------------------------
CONNECT with your LOCAL THEATRE
                     http://www.theatre.asn.au
------------------------------------------------










From kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au  Fri Sep 15 11:33:57 2000
From: kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au (Shackleton, Kevin)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:33:57 +0800
Subject: [plug] New parallel port
Message-ID: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E310C8@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>

Is there anything I need to do to set up a second parallel port, once the
card is in? (I recall in a recent post you had to create new serial ports
somehow).

(It's the school - they're so excited about their Linux proxy server / Samba
print server that they want to put the other printer onto it).

I may be able to score one of those print server boxes, but I'm not sure if
there will be a setup disc for it (this will let me keep the printer on the
opposite side of the room and avoid the need for a second parallel port).  I
assume it can have a name and/or fixed IP stuffed into it, otherwise I will
have to use tcpdump to sniff out its NIC address and set up dhcpd to reserve
a specific IP address for it.  Does anyone have a working syntax for
dhcpd.conf to do that? Or any other brilliant ideas on dealing with a print
server? (I think it's a Cisco)

K.



From colinr at tiwest.com.au  Fri Sep 15 11:42:38 2000
From: colinr at tiwest.com.au (Colin Rothnie)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:42:38 +0800
Subject: [plug] New parallel port
Message-ID: <E9EDEF4E768BD311BE0B00A0C9D4C42835E24D@minxs1.tiwest.com.au>

Kevin Shackleton wrote:
> Or any other brilliant ideas on dealing with a print
> server? (I think it's a Cisco)

My only experience has been with the HP printer servers.  Once they are set
up to use TCP/IP as well as/instead of DLC you can telnet into them and
configure them that way.

Unless you need to change the IP address of the server, you probably don't
need to change anything.  At the Linux end, just add the rm= and rp=
parameters to the printer definition in /etc/printcap.  The easiest way (if
you have RedHat or Mandrake) is to use their printtool tool.  The rm
parameter is the ip address or DNS name of the printer server and the rp
parameter is the printer queue defined on the server.

Here is the printcap entry from my Linux server for a plotter connected to a
HP printer server called "mineplotter1" in DNS.  

lp0|dj650c:\
        :sd=/var/spool/lpd/lp0:\
        :mx#0:\
        :sh:\
        :rm=mineplotter1:\
        :rp=PASSTHRU:

While this one uses rp=PASSTHRU, I have several other HP printer servers
that use rp=raw and I am fairly certain that when there were more than one
parallel outputs on the printer server , these could be specified as rp=raw1
or rp=raw2 etc.

The queue names are probably specific to the device, so you may need to dig
up a manual our scrounge around the Net to find out what they are.

Cheers
Colin Rothnie


From jeffw at mbox.com.au  Fri Sep 15 13:07:30 2000
From: jeffw at mbox.com.au (jeffw at mbox.com.au)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 13:07:30 +0800
Subject: [plug] Compiling KDE 1.1.2
Message-ID: <3f0bef3f706b.3f706b3f0bef@mbox.com.au>

KDE 1.1.2 will not work with Qt 2.2.0. Why don't you download the latest 
preview of KDE2 and use that? It's up to the penultimate release I think 
- should be prety stable.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bernard Blackham <dagobah at mad.scientist.com>
Date: Thursday, September 14, 2000 6:17 pm
Subject: [plug] Compiling KDE 1.1.2

> List,
> 
> I am trying to compile and install KDE 1.1.2 on my Debain 2.2 
> machine, and
> compiling from the source tgz's. I have installed Qt 2.2.0 source and
> binaries which seem to work fine. I've compiled and installed the
> kdesupport libs easily enough. When it comes to the kdelibs 
> themselves,they tend to spew errors that seem to be about the Qt 
> libraries or
> headers:
> 
> ---BEGIN CUT---
> 
> make all-recursive make[1]: Entering directory `/usr/src/kdelibs-
> 1.1.2'Making all in kdecore make[2]: Entering directory
> `/usr/src/kdelibs-1.1.2/kdecore' /bin/sh ../libtool --silent
> --mode=compile g++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I.. -
> I/usr/local/qt/include-O2 -Wall -c kconfigbase.cpp 
> kconfigbase.cpp: In method `const class
> QString KConfigBase::readEntry(const char *, const char * = 0) const':
> kconfigbase.cpp:382: no matching function for call to 
> `QString::detach ()'
> kconfigbase.cpp:394: `class QCharRef' used where a `int' was expected
> kconfigbase.cpp: In method `void KConfigBase::writeEntry(const 
> char *,
> QStrList &, char = ',', bool = true, bool = false, bool = false)':
> kconfigbase.cpp:894: call of overloaded `writeEntry(const char *&, 
> QString&, bool &, bool &, bool &)' is ambiguous 
> kconfigbase.cpp:808: candidates
> are: const char * KConfigBase::writeEntry(const char *, const char 
> *, bool
> = true, bool = false, bool = false) kconfigbase.h:543:  const char *
> KConfigBase::writeEntry(const char *, bool, bool = true, bool = false,
> bool = false) kconfigbase.h:561:  const char *
> KConfigBase::writeEntry(const char *, const QFont &, bool = true, 
> bool =
> false, bool = false) kconfigbase.h:579:  void
> KConfigBase::writeEntry(const char *, const QColor &, bool = true, 
> bool =
> false, bool = false) 
> .
> .
> .
> make[2]: *** [kconfigbase.lo] Error 1 make[2]:
> Leaving directory `/usr/src/kdelibs-1.1.2/kdecore' make[1]: ***
> [all-recursive] Error 1 make[1]: Leaving directory
> `/usr/src/kdelibs-1.1.2' make: *** [all-recursive-am] Error 2
> 
> ---END CUT---
> 
> the . . . is a tonne of similar messages about amiguities in the 
> functionprototypes all referred from in kconfigbase.h/cpp. I'm 
> guessing by the Q's
> there's something wrong with my Qt library? I can't seem to find 
> any joy
> in the KDE web pages, FAQs, installation notes, etc.
> Can anybody shed any light on the source of my problems please?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bernard.
> 
> --
> Bernard Blackham
> dagobah at mad.scientist.com
> 
> 
> 



From michael.j.hunt at usa.net  Fri Sep 15 04:39:39 2000
From: michael.j.hunt at usa.net (Michael Hunt)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:39:39 +0200
Subject: [plug] ppp + authentication
In-Reply-To: <41B710421A32D411A9AE004005353FE10C17A8@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <EKEEKLNPPABOMKNNPGMKAEKOCIAA.michael.j.hunt@usa.net>

> List,
>
> Not sure where I am going now with this problem. So far I have managed
> to use pam_smb with console logins but with ppp I it appears to be still
> using /etc/passwd.

Not that this is an answer to your question but as you are only just
implementing this you may want to check out the following security advisory
that I saw on Linux Weekly News Web Site. (http://lwn.net/)

pam_smb remotely-exploitable stack buffer overflow. A remotely-exploitable
stack buffer overflow has been reported in the pam_smb pluggable
authentication module. This is a severe vulnerability, which could lead to a
remote root compromise. All versions of pam_smb prior to 1.1.6 are affected.
If you are using Samba and pam_smb, an immediate upgrade is strongly urged.

Though you might find that useful to know before you did get it working and
put it in a production environment.

Michael Hunt



From baker at netwest.com.au  Fri Sep 15 16:16:25 2000
From: baker at netwest.com.au (Mark Baker)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 16:16:25 +0800
Subject: [plug] AUUG WA  September meeting: Stealth Unix
Message-ID: <219B0FEF1841D41192D70040C79959AE010E58@ntserver.netwest.com.au>


> Subject: AUUG WA  September: Stealth Unix
> -----------------------------------+--------------------------------------
>                             WAUG  Meeting
>                          The Victoria League
>                            276 Onslow Road
>                              Shenton Park
> 
>                       Wednesday September 20, 2000
>                                 6.15pm
> 
> 
>                              Don Griffiths
>                           Information Systems
>                            Curtin University
> 
>                             Stealth Unix
> 
>                             
> Don will discuss three different Unix development environments that
> operate
> under the Windows NT operating system.
> 
> 
> 
> NOTE: There won't be any food provided as part of the
> meeting however a snack menu is available at the bar
> between 6pm and 8pm.
> 
> 
> This meeting will be held at our regular venue, the premises of the
> Victoria League. These are located on the western corner of Onslow
> Road and King Street, Shenton Park. Coming from the city down Thomas
> Street, Onslow Road is the first right after the Rockeby Road traffic
> lights. The premises are about 1.5km down Onslow on the Right. 
> There are bar facilities available.
> -----------------------------------+-----------------------------------


From niall at linuxsolutions.net.au  Sat Sep 16 10:22:00 2000
From: niall at linuxsolutions.net.au (Niall Young)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 10:22:00 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Any local Debian developers?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000916102041.20910A-100000@mail.linuxsolutions.net.au>

Are there any local Debian developers here?  I'm planning to apply
shortly and need to go through the id/gpg signing formalities.

--
Niall Young

Linux Solutions -- www.linuxsolutions.net.au -- niall at linuxsolutions.net.au
        Providing Internet and Audio/Video Solutions and Consulting        
              Ph: 0407 421 537 -- PO BOX 1117, Gwelup WA 6018              



From alpha at indigo.net.au  Sat Sep 16 13:59:19 2000
From: alpha at indigo.net.au (Joshua Pierre)
Date: 16 Sep 2000 13:59:19 WST
Subject: [plug] TCP Quotas
Message-ID: <200009160600.e8G60rI02955@sodium.indigo.net.au>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://lists.plug.org.au/pipermail/plug/attachments/20000916/b9558cf8/attachment.ksh>

From davecook at iinet.net.au  Sat Sep 16 14:30:28 2000
From: davecook at iinet.net.au (davecook at iinet.net.au)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 14:30:28 +0800
Subject: [plug] Any local Debian developers?
Message-ID: <200009160630.OAA18689@localhost.localdomain>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://lists.plug.org.au/pipermail/plug/attachments/20000916/bfc312d8/attachment.ksh>

From batesy at rave.iinet.net.au  Sun Sep 17 09:32:08 2000
From: batesy at rave.iinet.net.au (Jonathon Bates)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 09:32:08 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Vacation files.
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009170905190.26010-100000@rave.iinet.net.au>

hey guys,
I have just a quick question in regards to a vacation file I want to set
up.
Obviosuly I firstly issue thee command 
# vacation -i
(creates the .vacation.db file.)
Then I create a .forward file with the following:
 \batesy, "|/usr/bin/vacation -a Bates Jonathon"

I then create a .vaction.msg file
"I am not here"

Now when I goto send a message I get the following bounced message:
(please ignore the blahski, its just something I was playing with)
(i get the bounced message irrespective of the username...)

The original message was received at Sat, 16 Sep 2000 19:21:02 +0800
from batesy at localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
"|/usr/bin/vacation -a blahski"
    (expanded from: <blahski at batesy.iinet.net.au>)
\lahski
    (reason: 550 5.1.1 User unknown)
    (expanded from: <blahski at batesy.iinet.net.au>)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
550 5.1.1 /home/blahski/.forward: line 1: \lahski... User unknown
500 5.0.0 "|/usr/bin/vacation -a blahski"... Bad usage

    [ Part 2: "Delivery Status" ]

Reporting-MTA: dns; batesy.iinet.net.au
Arrival-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 19:21:02 +0800

Final-Recipient: RFC822; blahski at batesy.iinet.net.au
X-Actual-Recipient: rfc822; |/usr/bin/vacation -a
blahski at batesy.iinet.net.au
Action: failed
Status: 5.5.4
Last-Attempt-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 19:21:02 +0800

Final-Recipient: RFC822; blahski at batesy.iinet.net.au
X-Actual-Recipient: RFC822; \lahski at batesy.iinet.net.au
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.1
Diagnostic-Code: X-Unix; 550 5.1.1 User unknown
Last-Attempt-Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 19:21:02 +0800

As always any helpi s appreciated!

Thanks people!
Cya
batesy



From alanh at wn.com.au  Sun Sep 17 14:21:15 2000
From: alanh at wn.com.au (alan howard)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 14:21:15 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ?????
Message-ID: <00091714231900.00373@localhost.localdomain>

has any one seen microsofts freedom to inovate network- what a joke, and yet
some people will believe the one sided rubbish thats on there.


From ojw at iinet.net.au  Sun Sep 17 16:51:15 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 08:51:15 +0000
Subject: [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ?????
References: <00091714231900.00373@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <39C48603.61BC25F6@iinet.net.au>

alan howard wrote:

> has any one seen microsofts freedom to inovate network- what a joke, and yet
> some people will believe the one sided rubbish thats on there.

Please mark your off topic posts as such.

--
Oliver White



From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Sun Sep 17 18:18:04 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 18:18:04 +0800
Subject: Off-Topic [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ?????
References: <00091714231900.00373@localhost.localdomain> <39C48603.61BC25F6@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <002b01c02090$926a66c0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

Yes, I even subscribed to it for a laugh, to see what sort of material they
sent out to their followers...I have not received anything yet.
Maybe it's because I signed up when I was using Netscape in Linux ? :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Oliver White" <ojw at iinet.net.au>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ?????


> alan howard wrote:
>
> > has any one seen microsofts freedom to inovate network- what a joke, and
yet
> > some people will believe the one sided rubbish thats on there.
>
> Please mark your off topic posts as such.
>
> --
> Oliver White
>
>
>



From alanh at wn.com.au  Sun Sep 17 17:59:29 2000
From: alanh at wn.com.au (alan howard)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 17:59:29 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ????? (off topic )
In-Reply-To: <39C48603.61BC25F6@iinet.net.au>
References: <00091714231900.00373@localhost.localdomain> <39C48603.61BC25F6@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00091718172900.00350@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000, Oliver White wrote:
> alan howard wrote:
> 
> > has any one seen microsofts freedom to inovate network- what a joke, and yet
> > some people will believe the one sided rubbish thats on there.
> 
> Please mark your off topic posts as such.
> 
> --
> Oliver White

sorry oliver, i will in future.
Unfortunatly what microsoft does at the moment and in the future has the
possibility of affecting linux users. Microsoft has already decleared war on us
( see leon brooks postings) . Whether we like it , or not, microsoft is in a
position to determin standards for web page formatts, office files , and a host
of other things. Microsoft , at the moment is threatened by the Department of
Justice ruling, and the increasing popularity of Linux and is reacting to this
threat by a series of mis-information not only about linux , but also some of
its competitors in the office suit stakes.  I would not be suprised if
microsoft releases web servers that only IE will work on , and various other
tactics to make the use of linux not so easy ( we can already find web sites
written specifically for IE ).

regards
alan howard


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Sun Sep 17 20:22:27 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:22:27 +0800
Subject: [plug] OT: MS Freedom to enervate
References: <00091714231900.00373@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <39C4B783.D4CB5EF@brooks.smileys.net>

alan howard wrote:
> has any one seen microsofts freedom to inovate network - what a joke,

Call it "freedom to enervate" as it's both more accurate, gets the message
across, and is easier to take than the raucous laughter it deserves.

    http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=enervate

The definition from Princeton University (scroll down that URL) seems most
appropriate.

Don'chya love it when the randomly-generated taglines resonate so well? (-:

-- 
A government big enough to give you everything you want is big
enough to take from you everything you have. -- Gerald R. Ford


From alanh at wn.com.au  Sun Sep 17 20:54:10 2000
From: alanh at wn.com.au (alan howard)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:54:10 +0800
Subject: [plug] OT: MS Freedom to enervate
In-Reply-To: <39C4B783.D4CB5EF@brooks.smileys.net>
References: <00091714231900.00373@localhost.localdomain> <39C4B783.D4CB5EF@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <00091721061802.00384@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:
> alan howard wrote:
> > has any one seen microsofts freedom to inovate network - what a joke,
> 
> Call it "freedom to enervate" as it's both more accurate, gets the message
> across, and is easier to take than the raucous laughter it deserves.
> 
>     http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=enervate
> 
> The definition from Princeton University (scroll down that URL) seems most
> appropriate.
> 
> Don'chya love it when the randomly-generated taglines resonate so well? (-:
 
the problem here, leon, is that most pc users think that MS is god, fortunatly
the subscibers to this group know otherwise. It would be a joke if it wasn't
taken seriously, unfortunatly it will be by most. :-(.
it reminds me of the VHS versus BETA video debate many years ago . the superior
system (BETA ) lost against VHS in the home , while BETACAM is used
profesionally and not VHS. Which is superior? The one that sells the most , or
the one that performs the best?
regards
alan howard


From Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au  Sun Sep 17 21:43:14 2000
From: Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au (Brian Tombleson)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 21:43:14 +0800
Subject: [plug] anyone here work for a public company?
References: <39BA4405.BA4CF4F2@brooks.smileys.net> <00090922395300.16981@quag2>
Message-ID: <004201c020ad$3a8c5400$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>

Sorry to come in late on this one ..

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bradley Woodward" <sweenytod at sweenytod.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 10:39 PM


> On Sat, 09 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:
> > http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-09-08-004-04-OP-LF-MS
> >
> > Text follows:
> >
> > MS Office costs businesses about $6 billion each year; with free
> > alternatives like StarOffice that are now available, continuing to pay
for
> > MS Office constitutes fiscal irresponsibility -- shareholders and
employees
> > should be demanding an end to this colossal waste of corporate funds.
>
> There is a difference between the cost of purchace and the cost of owning.
> Office costs a lot to buy, but doesn't cost much to own, because everybody
> coming out of receptionist school and business collage knows how to use
the
> damn things.  The training costs are way down, because everybody mimics
the
> MS style of applicaton, so everybody basically knows how to navigate the
> menus and toolbars of most new applications.

Criticism and philosophical debate aside, is one of the avenues that people
like us (PLUG) be taking is getting into the decision-makers in
'receptionist schools', high-schools, uni's, etc and convincing them to
change over?

This would mean cost of ownership of SO/Linux/Open-source/Free-software will
drop to $0 along with MS stock price, right?

- Brian.

Just my $0.545 (GST incl.) worth of thoughts.




From woodward at omen.net.au  Sun Sep 17 22:01:54 2000
From: woodward at omen.net.au (Clive Woodward)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 22:01:54 +0800
Subject: [plug] OT: MS Freedom to enervate
In-Reply-To: <00091721061802.00384@localhost.localdomain>
References: <39C4B783.D4CB5EF@brooks.smileys.net>
 <00091714231900.00373@localhost.localdomain>
 <39C4B783.D4CB5EF@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000917214616.00beba60@mail.iinet.net.au>


Getting further off topic... ;-)

I agree in part with Alan's VHS versus Beta analogy but his example is not 
totally correct. As a technician in the broadcast video field, I must point 
out that Beta (domestic) and Betacam have very little in common, other than 
being based on a physically similar cassette size (Betacam tape speed is 
six times that of Beta). VHS has a broadcast relative, too: "M" and more 
recently "M-2" (again with substantial differences other than basic shell 
dimensions). M-2 has a similar broadcast market share in the USA as BetacamSP.

The real Beta v's VHS argument is that Sony would licence its Beta format 
to only two other players (Sanyo and Toshiba from memory), whilst VHS 
(JVC's baby) was more freely available to other manufacturers. Beta may 
have been marginally better on specification but it was always more 
expensive to buy the hardware. VHS won.

In terms of Windoze v's Linux, more the opposite way around, yet M$ wins?

Sorry for the bandwidth :-)


Clive.

At 20:54 Sunday 17-09-00 +0800, you wrote:

>it reminds me of the VHS versus BETA video debate many years ago . the 
>superior system (BETA) lost against VHS in the home, while BETACAM is used
>profesionally and not VHS. Which is superior? The one that sells the most, 
>or the one that performs the best?
>regards
>alan howard


_____________________________________________________________________

                                 Clive Woodward t/as:
                     .           WOODRONICS [ABN 27 278 784 779]
               _/- /_|\          PO Box 74
             .~  |     \                 Applecross WA 6953
             \ WA|      \        AUSTRALIA
           => *_.-.._   /
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                      V          Fax:    +61 8 9316 8399
                                 Mobile: 0403 006 153
                                 email:  woodward at omen.net.au

                 CONTRACTING AND CONSULTING IN PROFESSIONAL
                 & BROADCAST AUDIO AND VIDEO ELECTRONICS.

         "It's not a problem, it's an opportunity! I'll make it work."

_____________________________________________________________________



From simpware at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 18 09:09:10 2000
From: simpware at yahoo.com (Andrew Furey)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 18:09:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ????? (off topic )
Message-ID: <20000918010910.16872.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com>

> I would not be suprised if microsoft releases web
> servers that only IE will work on

IMHO it would be the other way, MS would release a
version of IE that only works on their web servers.
They tried basically the same thing with W2K and
Kerberos (IIRC).

Remember, their monopoly (for now :) is the desktop,
so they would try to leverage that to get the server
monopoly.

Andrew Furey

=====
In a world without walls and fences, who needs windows and gates?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 18 09:19:37 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:19:37 +0800
Subject: [plug] [contains rant] Linux in schools (was: public company?)
References: <39BA4405.BA4CF4F2@brooks.smileys.net> <00090922395300.16981@quag2> <004201c020ad$3a8c5400$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>
Message-ID: <39C56DA9.814DFD17@brooks.smileys.net>

Brian Tombleson wrote:
> This would mean cost of ownership of SO/Linux/Open-source/Free-software will
> drop to $0 along with MS stock price, right?

TCO is never zero; the attraction for a school would be real security and real
stability. That combined with vastly reduced problems with standards (e.g. not
having Active Directory around to mess with your DNS) and freely available
development tools for the ComSci(upper-schools)/Science(high-school) students
would be heaven on a stick for most dedicated educational admins.

I hate to say this, since it could offend some people, but it must needs be
said: a lot of school admins are very bad at their jobs. Many of them are
co-opted teachers with no deep understanding of computer basics, and it's hard
to explain to them that while their systems look all right, there's a copy of
Back Orifice, 7th Sphere or NetBus on practically every machine and privacy
there is a myth.

Where Linux would help out here is by being deliverable secure (OpenWall kernel
patches etc), and remotely maintainable even on the budget internet links that
most schools use. This would make it more practical to outsource administration
to someone who actually understands what they're doing, so the co-opted science
teacher can be released to return to doing what they were really trained for and
the school can have some bona-fide reliability and security out of their
network.

I find that business clients are extremely happy to pay me $1000 to set up a
server if it saves them $5000 in MS licencing fees plus $2-5000 in staff time
not lost to crashes every year. It works like this: server dies from acute email
infestation, takes 3 hours to repair, meanwhile 30 out of 50 staff twiddle their
thumbs at $20/hour == $1800 for one outage, plus frustration, plus maybe lost
business; server dies for a day...?

<RANT>Businesses go from happy to delighted if I can do gateway/firewall, file,
database, web, name and email services on the one box for $2000 plus hardware.
Contrast this with $2000 for a Cisco, plus at least two NT or 2000 licences,
plus maybe bananoid per-CPU licences for their website, plus Exchange, plus
setup fees anyway, who knows what else? You might require: 1 box for MS-SQL,
another for Exchange, and another for the other services - or to be safe, one
for web and one for DNS/proxy. There may be another router or two for further
inter-MS-box firewalling - and none of these NT/2000 boxes are likely to be
off-the-shelf stuff! No sir-ree! We're talking Hardware Compatibility List gear
and near double the price here! One site I know of, to do their stuff with MS
software, would require a minimum of four HCL boxes at $5000++ each, plus four
NT/2000 licences, plus an MS-SQL licence (they have this already and are
regretting it), plus Exchange, plus an internet connector licence ($2500 per CPU
and the SQL box has 2 CPUs), plus an additional router to add to their existing
two, plus setup costs... say $30,000 to $35,000, without any form of
clustering/failover, plus regular reboots - in which they are most uninterested
- in place of about $4000 for a reliable system, or about $7000 with instant,
automatic failover to a duplicate box. Which would *you* choose?

Making the case for workstations is harder in up-front financial terms, since a
workstation doesn't cost that much less to set up than a server - but it can
still be done. The big win in workstations is that the staff cannot run ILOVEYOU
viruses or even attachments that merely sound a klaxon, flash the screen pink
and put the words "I'M GAY" across it. Even if a staff member figures out how to
run such things on Linux, the most they can destroy is their own user context.
Now consider Windows, where the little man flyng around your screen (propelled
by the rocket flame spraying from his sitting gear and accompanied by
suitable(?) noises) might also be putting your network card into promiscuous
mode or shipping your address and .pwl files back to its author - or running
your hard disk heads into the spindle.

I see three Internet cafes, who shall run nameless. One runs Linux on 9 boxes
but does it on really cheap hardware. About half the time, one box or another
will be unreliable. About 10% of the time, one box or another will be useless
due to hardware failure. Except for disk crashes or corruption due to dying
hardware, these boxes do not require a reinstall (might average one box per nine
months). The other cafes each run Windows on three boxes. Not only do these
boxes require reinstallation regularly (more often than monthly per box), but if
the owner is away the typical working population is one box, and if the owner is
present, two. The two Windows-based cafes are remarkably similar in this
respect, except that one connects to the inernet through a LAN and Linux box and
the other has three modems. In terms of abuse, a school is not much different to
an internet cafe.

If the 9-seat cafe were to run at the same speed as the others, you might think
that they would be doing a reinstall every three days and have three to six
boxes offline at any given instant. In practice it would be much worse, since
one virussed machine could wipe the lot. Yes, I know there are virus scanners,
and both Windows cafes use them. I suppose it helps, and wonder how they'd get
along without them. Now, think of a school as being a 30- to 300- seat internet
cafe... can you see why having Linux workstations might be attractive to
them?</RANT>

For these reasons, the Linux business is booming. Expect heartless opportunists
to swarm onto the field soon.

-- 
The real problem isn't whether machines think but whether people do.
    -- B.F. Skinner


From kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au  Mon Sep 18 09:48:06 2000
From: kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au (Shackleton, Kevin)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:48:06 +0800
Subject: [plug] [contains rant] Linux in schools (was: public company?
	)
Message-ID: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E31261@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>

Of course the cost thing isn't so much of an issue at schools - they are
given a bundle of 'free' CDs with all the Back Office stuff.

They generally seem to run the server stuff on plain new PCs, without
following the recommendations from Microsoft about how to break up the
tasks.

The word 'entrapment' springs to mind . . (and some images from that film,
mmm)

You have to show the schools how they can use the new machines to run Learn
To Spell games and the old machines that no longer do that properly can be
used as the servers.

K.

> ----------
> From: 	Leon Brooks[SMTP:leon at brooks.smileys.net]
> 
> I find that business clients are extremely happy to pay me $1000 to set up
> a
> server if it saves them $5000 in MS licencing fees . . . .
> 


From christian at amnet.net.au  Mon Sep 18 09:41:09 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:41:09 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ????? (off topic )
In-Reply-To: <20000918010910.16872.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com>; from simpware@yahoo.com on Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 06:09:10PM -0700
References: <20000918010910.16872.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20000918094109.A8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 06:09:10PM -0700, Andrew Furey wrote:
> > I would not be suprised if microsoft releases web
> > servers that only IE will work on
> 
> IMHO it would be the other way, MS would release a
> version of IE that only works on their web servers.
> They tried basically the same thing with W2K and
> Kerberos (IIRC).
> Remember, their monopoly (for now :) is the desktop,
> so they would try to leverage that to get the server
> monopoly.

I doubt they would do this given the stranglehold Apache has on the web
server market but the idea is definitely something they might consider.
Either way, they backed down with Kerberos which is a fairly unimportant
protocol compared with, say, HTTP so imagine what the outcry would be if
they did.

Either way, rants about Microsoft propaganda are pretty off-topic on a
list about Linux in Perth IMHO.


From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Mon Sep 18 09:49:14 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (Bradley Woodward)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:49:14 +0800
Subject: [plug] [contains rant] Linux in schools (was: public
  company?)
In-Reply-To: <39C56DA9.814DFD17@brooks.smileys.net>
References: <39BA4405.BA4CF4F2@brooks.smileys.net>
 <00090922395300.16981@quag2>
 <004201c020ad$3a8c5400$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918093338.00b28ed0@mail.sweenytod.com>

At 09:19 AM 18/09/2000, you wrote:

>and near double the price here! One site I know of, to do their stuff with MS
>software, would require a minimum of four HCL boxes at $5000++ each, plus four
>NT/2000 licences, plus an MS-SQL licence (they have this already and are
>regretting it), plus Exchange, plus an internet connector licence ($2500 
>per CPU

This internet connector license is a very sneaky way of getting a bunch 
more cash outta people.  From memory, even MS-SQL needs a special license 
when connecting it to an e-commerce web site.  You can't just say "Well, 
one web server == one odbc connection == 1 license needed for mssql".  You 
need a special internet version which costs, or is this the internet 
connector license you were talking about?  That sucks hugly.  Short of 
heavy duty transaction processing, I can't find a single thing mysql 
doesn't do a heap quicker than the other two or three databases I've played 
with (MS-SQL, Acess via ODBC (please don't laugh at me) and 
Oracle).  Oracle I did like, but it's overkill for most web sites I think, 
and I'm no DBA.  I do wanna check out the new Interbase 6.0.  That sounds 
quite sweet.

You don't *need* HCL boxes.  This place I work at runs quite happly on 
clone rubbish, and has very few hours downtime.  Of course, I wouldn't 
recommend this.  Murphy just loves places that live like this.  We've 
suffered one MB/disk meltdown on a vital server.  sigh - oh the pain.  Good 
hardware is worth every cent, to a degree.  HCL stuff is overpriced, IMHO.



=============================================================
Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd.    His skin was pale and his eye was odd.
Always trust an Australian with a razor.

http://www.sweenytod.com               Paranoid is normal, normal is good



From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Mon Sep 18 09:56:04 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (Bradley Woodward)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:56:04 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ????? (off topic )
In-Reply-To: <20000918094109.A8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>
References: <20000918010910.16872.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20000918010910.16872.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918094922.00aff748@mail.sweenytod.com>

At 09:41 AM 18/09/2000, you wrote:
>I doubt they would do this given the stranglehold Apache has on the web
>server market but the idea is definitely something they might consider.

It's not that much of a strangle hold, to be honest.  Netcraft modified 
their surveys, and now don't include default installs, that aren't real web 
sites.  They call them "active" sites, and the percentages are very close.

http://www.netcraft.com/survey/index-200007.html#active has the 
gossip.  The interesting bit is at the bottom, where we see:

OS              Hosts           %       Active          %
Linux           6,116,811       35.73   2,265,095       29.99
Microsoft       3,644,187       21.32   2,222,841       28.32

Apache is still in front, but not by a heck of a lot.


=============================================================
Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd.    His skin was pale and his eye was odd.
Always trust an Australian with a razor.

http://www.sweenytod.com               Paranoid is normal, normal is good



From c.norwood at ecu.edu.au  Mon Sep 18 10:10:34 2000
From: c.norwood at ecu.edu.au (Chris Norwood)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:10:34 +0800
Subject: [plug] Site for flavour comparison
Message-ID: <005601c02115$a1cd73c0$0dd3e68b@d8a3i2>

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone knows of a site where the various distributions
are compared that doesn't consist of  - Redhat sux dedian rules etc.  I am
trying to work out what flavour would best suit me as a Windows user trying
to learn basic Linux without too much programming.  I like a program that
holds my hand while learning it. Hopefully this will give me some idea of
what flavour to put on at the installfest (currently RH6.2).  I have tried a
few sites without much success.

Please note I am not trying to start a distribution argument thread!!!

Chris Norwood




From skribe at amber.com.au  Mon Sep 18 10:29:40 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:29:40 +0800
Subject: [plug] Site for flavour comparison
In-Reply-To: <005601c02115$a1cd73c0$0dd3e68b@d8a3i2>
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000918101651.00c99100@amber.com.au>

At 10:10 18/09/00, Chris Norwood wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone knows of a site where the various distributions
>are compared that doesn't consist of  - Redhat sux dedian rules etc.  I am
>trying to work out what flavour would best suit me as a Windows user trying
>to learn basic Linux without too much programming.  I like a program that
>holds my hand while learning it. Hopefully this will give me some idea of
>what flavour to put on at the installfest (currently RH6.2).  I have tried a
>few sites without much success.

The September 2000 edition of Australian Personal Computer magazine gave a 
fairly comprehensive review of the various linux distributions.  You might 
be able to find the article at http://www.apcmag.com/.

>Please note I am not trying to start a distribution argument thread!!!

You are so.  Admit it! =)

skribe
	Purity:                           62.0% 			
	Corruption:                    38.0%	
	Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
	Weirdness factor:           31%
	Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
	Medieval Career:            Black Knight	



From c.norwood at ecu.edu.au  Mon Sep 18 10:41:04 2000
From: c.norwood at ecu.edu.au (Chris Norwood)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:41:04 +0800
Subject: [plug] Site for flavour comparison
References: <4.3.0.20000918101651.00c99100@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <008801c02119$e40c8a60$0dd3e68b@d8a3i2>

Thanks Skribe.

Here is the site for anyone else who is interested.

http://www.apcmag.com/apcmag.nsf/a796bff82774ce0eca25693100486bc9/3bb909f41f
af59ddca25694c001fde42!OpenDocument&Highlight=2,Linux

Chris



From christian at amnet.net.au  Mon Sep 18 10:48:55 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:48:55 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ????? (off topic )
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918094922.00aff748@mail.sweenytod.com>; from sweenytod@sweenytod.com on Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 09:56:04AM +0800
References: <20000918010910.16872.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com> <20000918010910.16872.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com> <20000918094109.A8341@eagle.amnet.net.au> <4.3.2.7.2.20000918094922.00aff748@mail.sweenytod.com>
Message-ID: <20000918104855.C8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 09:56:04AM +0800, Bradley Woodward wrote:
> At 09:41 AM 18/09/2000, you wrote:
> >I doubt they would do this given the stranglehold Apache has on the web
> >server market but the idea is definitely something they might consider.
> 
> It's not that much of a strangle hold, to be honest.  Netcraft modified 
> their surveys, and now don't include default installs, that aren't real web 
> sites.  They call them "active" sites, and the percentages are very close.

Ummm... sorry?  The percentage dropped about 3%.  Apache has 59.6%
market share ("active sites") according to the link above.  The next
highest is Microsoft with 26.8% so Apache has more than double the next
highest.  It may not be quite as much as Microsoft's monopoly on the
desktop but it's still a figurative stranglehold in my book!  The
previous suggestion that Microsoft would make IE not work with Apache is
ludicrous based on these figures -- IE users would be denied access to
OVER HALF of the web sites they went to visit.  If IE could only work
with IIS then IE users then THREE QUARTERS of the web would be out
of reach.  Of course there are a million and one ways to play with
statistics and do dodgy experimental studies but, however, you look at
it such an attempt by Microsoft would be very foolhardy which was the
point I was trying to make.


From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Mon Sep 18 10:54:20 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (Bradley Woodward)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:54:20 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ????? (off topic )
In-Reply-To: <20000918104855.C8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918094922.00aff748@mail.sweenytod.com>
 <20000918010910.16872.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20000918010910.16872.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20000918094109.A8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000918094922.00aff748@mail.sweenytod.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918105309.00b3ecc8@mail.sweenytod.com>

At 10:48 AM 18/09/2000, you wrote:
>On Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 09:56:04AM +0800, Bradley Woodward wrote:
> > At 09:41 AM 18/09/2000, you wrote:
> > >I doubt they would do this given the stranglehold Apache has on the web
> > >server market but the idea is definitely something they might consider.
> >
> > It's not that much of a strangle hold, to be honest.  Netcraft modified
> > their surveys, and now don't include default installs, that aren't real 
> web
> > sites.  They call them "active" sites, and the percentages are very close.
>
>Ummm... sorry?  The percentage dropped about 3%.  Apache has 59.6%
>market share ("active sites") according to the link above.  The next

The point Netcraft made was that most of these sites are default installs 
of Linux and Apache.  You install Linux with all options selected, and you 
end up with a working web server (cool hey), and a webpage.  Netcraft 
stopped counting those default installed webpages, and the percentages 
dropped to what I posted.



=============================================================
Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd.    His skin was pale and his eye was odd.
Always trust an Australian with a razor.

http://www.sweenytod.com               Paranoid is normal, normal is good



From christian at amnet.net.au  Mon Sep 18 11:07:48 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:07:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ????? (off topic )
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918105309.00b3ecc8@mail.sweenytod.com>; from sweenytod@sweenytod.com on Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:54:20AM +0800
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918094922.00aff748@mail.sweenytod.com> <20000918010910.16872.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com> <20000918010910.16872.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com> <20000918094109.A8341@eagle.amnet.net.au> <4.3.2.7.2.20000918094922.00aff748@mail.sweenytod.com> <20000918104855.C8341@eagle.amnet.net.au> <4.3.2.7.2.20000918105309.00b3ecc8@mail.sweenytod.com>
Message-ID: <20000918110748.D8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:54:20AM +0800, Bradley Woodward wrote:
> The point Netcraft made was that most of these sites are default installs 
> of Linux and Apache.  You install Linux with all options selected, and you 
> end up with a working web server (cool hey), and a webpage.  Netcraft 
> stopped counting those default installed webpages, and the percentages 
> dropped to what I posted.

I hope that "cool hey" is sarcastic -- the last thing it should do is
install a working web server.  Either way, the percentages dropped by
THREE PERCENT, i.e., they barely moved so my description of a
stranglehold is still quite reasonable.


From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Mon Sep 18 11:13:48 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (Bradley Woodward)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:13:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] lies, damned lies and statistics.  (OT)
In-Reply-To: <20000918110748.D8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918105309.00b3ecc8@mail.sweenytod.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000918094922.00aff748@mail.sweenytod.com>
 <20000918010910.16872.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20000918010910.16872.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20000918094109.A8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000918094922.00aff748@mail.sweenytod.com>
 <20000918104855.C8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000918105309.00b3ecc8@mail.sweenytod.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918111151.00b712d8@mail.sweenytod.com>

At 11:07 AM 18/09/2000, you wrote:
>On Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:54:20AM +0800, Bradley Woodward wrote:
> > The point Netcraft made was that most of these sites are default installs
> > of Linux and Apache.  You install Linux with all options selected, and you
> > end up with a working web server (cool hey), and a webpage.  Netcraft
> > stopped counting those default installed webpages, and the percentages
> > dropped to what I posted.
>
>I hope that "cool hey" is sarcastic -- the last thing it should do is
>install a working web server.  Either way, the percentages dropped by
>THREE PERCENT, i.e., they barely moved so my description of a
>stranglehold is still quite reasonable.

Ok, whatever.  I'm not gonna argue over the numbers writen on a 
webpage.  Read it yourself, you'll find what I said printed there.  It even 
made news on slashdot, so I suppect there is some validity to it.

Either way, Apache still leads.



=============================================================
Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd.    His skin was pale and his eye was odd.
Always trust an Australian with a razor.

http://www.sweenytod.com               Paranoid is normal, normal is good



From batesy at rave.iinet.net.au  Thu Sep 14 14:09:37 2000
From: batesy at rave.iinet.net.au (Jonathon Bates)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:09:37 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Updating Sendmail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000914134618.6668F-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009141407170.1271-100000@rave.iinet.net.au>

> Really the best way to upgrade would be to have your distribution do it
> for you.
> 
> ie with RedHat & derivatives, download the appropriate rpm file and use
> the -U (upgrade) command for rpm to install it.

Thanks Mat!
And obviously no compilation, I jsut have to edit the appropriate files
restart sendmail and then away I go!
Kewlies!

> If you're not running a distro that has automated package management, then
> you'll have to do it the way you suggested.
Thanks! :)

Cya
Batesy

--
Jonathon Bates
"No pain is worse than that of giving in."



From paul at bauma.com.au  Mon Sep 18 11:31:18 2000
From: paul at bauma.com.au (Paul Baumgarten)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:31:18 +0800
Subject: [plug] [contains rant] Linux in schools (was: public company?)
References: <39BA4405.BA4CF4F2@brooks.smileys.net> <00090922395300.16981@quag2> <004201c020ad$3a8c5400$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au> <39C56DA9.814DFD17@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39C58C86.16248404@kcc.wa.edu.au>

As an IT Manager at a private K-12 school, I thought I might throw in my
two cents worth for this thread.

I would tend to agree with Leon's statement of sys-admin's being
co-opted teachers for the vast majority of public schools and some
private schools (generally the low fee paying variety but even some of
these have sys-admins from a non-teaching background).  Quite a lot of
the private schools are able to afford and do employ IT trained people
as their sys-admin's.

We migrated our server farm from NT to Linux almost two years ago.  In
return I received many comments from the key staff who were the most
demanding on the system about how much more reliable the network had
become.  Since that time the only noteworthy down time has been the
result of a hard disk failure on our database server (ouch) and a
Network Switch that went south cutting off half the campus for a couple
of days until replaced.  From the cost perspective we have saved an
estimated $7000 in licensing.

As a result of this, the powers that be are becoming increasingly open
to the idea of alternatives to the standard Microsoft approach for other
uses.... espescially when one considers that MS-Office licensing has
cost the school around $10K to $15K in the last 2 years.  The Corel and
StarOffice alternatives are the ones attracting the most attention at
the moment.  Corel offers very good site licensing for educational
institutions and star office, is of course, zero dollars for licensing. 
The other factor is that both of these products can be run on Linux.

At this stage we are in the planning stages of a dual-boot (win95/linux)
lab for next year.

Working in the educational environment I can tell you that the
linux/open-source approach is being watched with keen interest from many
schools.  The cost savings alone make them very attractive.  The key
issues that are causing restraint in moving across are:

* Industry acceptance.  One of the key concerns of schools is that they
should be training students with the packages used by industry - at
which point the MS monopoly raises it's head.  The counter argument to
this is that schools should not be training a package but teaching a set
of skills that are transferable between different applications.  Either
way this is probably the major stumbling block.

* Ability to use educational-specific packages that are only available
for Windows.  Products such as Wine and Vmware go some length to
addressing this problem but the perception that it could be complicated
to use (compliated=not just a single click to load my ms-app) is one
factor that requires addressing.

* Staff training.  Teachers don't want to look like idiots when standing
in front of a classroom of 14 yr old kids.  Many teachers stuggle with
Windows/Office as it is.  Changing to something else without proper
training and in house support would cause a riot.  This is the reason we
are taking a gentle approach here by looking at the dual-boot lab... to
later become a linux plus wine/vmware lab.

I don't believe industrial support tends to be a major concern (as much
as Microsoft would try to claim it should be an issue).  In fact in my
discussions with IT staff at other colleges I don't remember support
being mentioned once.  After all, compared to the "support" received by
Microsoft... what could possibly be worse?

As far as the system reloads that Leon mentioned we are in the process
of rolling out software that updates the Win95 clients on-the-fly at
system startup from a master image on a server.  Prior to this we were
re-imaging our win95/office97 student use workstations probably twice a
term.

-- 
Paul Baumgarten
Information Systems Manager, Kingsway Christian College
Email: paul at bauma.com.au or paul at kcc.wa.edu.au
Mobile: 041 994 2779


From skribe at amber.com.au  Mon Sep 18 11:32:05 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:32:05 +0800
Subject: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au>

Here's the alpha-release version of the PLUG FAQ.  I apologise in advance 
if there are problems with formatting.  If you spot any problems please 
forward them to me.  Also if you have anything that should be added contact 
me with the relevant details.

To Joshua Pierre: I can get you a HTML version for the web site by Thursday 
if nothing intrudes.

--- Begin FAQ ---

$VERSION 0.2 20000918
Maintainer: skribe at amber.com.au
Perth Linux User Group (PLUG) Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) with Answers

This is the FAQ for the Perth Linux User Group (PLUG). PLUG is an 
association dealing primarily with the use of all forms and distributions 
of GNU/Linux in Perth, Western Australia.

Table of Contents

1.0 General Information	
	1.1	What is PLUG?
	1.2	What are the aims of PLUG?
	1.3	What does PLUG do?
	1.4	How do I join PLUG?
	1.5	What are the benefits for members?
	1.6	When does PLUG meet?
	1.7	Who are the current Office Bearers of PLUG?
	1.8	Is PLUG incorporated?

2.0 Mailing List
	2.1	How do I join the mailing List?
	2.2	How do I leave the mailing list?
	2.3	How busy is the mailing list?
	2.4	What is acceptable behaviour?
	2.5	What is netiquette?
	2.6	What are flamebait and trolls?
	2.7	What has already been discussed?
	2.8	What topics should I avoid?
	2.9	Who maintains the mailing list?

3.0 Web Site
	3.1	Where is the web site?
	3.2	Who is the web site maintainer?

4.0 The Library
	4.1	How do I access the library?
*	4.2	What's in the library?

5.0 Spark
	5.1	What is Spark?
	5.2	How do I get an account on Spark?

6.0 Linux in Perth
	6.1	Where can I get Linux in Perth?
*	6.2	Are there any linux-friendly retailers?
	6.3	Are there any linux-friendly ISPs?

7.0 Linux Links
	7.1	What can I go to find out more about Linux?

8.0 Miscellaneous
*	8.1	Contributors

(*) incomplete - need more information.

1.0 General Information

1.1 	What is PLUG?

	PLUG stands for Perth Linux User Group.  It is an association dealing 
primarily with all forms and distributions of the GNU/Linux computer 
operating system.  It is based in Perth, Western Australia, although 
membership is not limited to those living in the Perth metropolitian 
area.  We have members and associates from across the world.

1.2	What are the aims of PLUG?

	Apart from saving the world, PLUG exists to promote and support Linux in 
Perth, Western Australia.  Its mission is threefold:

	i. 	Advocate the use of Linux.
	ii. 	Provide a focal point for local users to make contacts to get help.
	iii.	Improve the groups' knowledge about Linux and associated products.

1.3	What does PLUG do?

	Mailing list:  This is arguably the most active area of PLUG.  The mailing 
list allows PLUG's members to provide support for Linux as well as keep its 
members informed about what's happening in the computing world.  There are 
also discussions about features of the various linux distributions and of 
course we joke around and have fun as only computing geeks know how =). See 
also 2.0.

	Website:  The website allows members to keep informed about the latest 
club activities and news.  It's our virtual newsletter.  It also has a 
search facility, so that members can check the archives of the mailing 
list, and a listing of the library's contents. See also 3.0.

	Library:  The library is small but growing.  It is mainly software at the 
moment although books will hopefully become available soon.  To see what we 
have available in the library check the website.  See also 4.0.

	Meetings:  PLUG holds two types of regular meetings:

		i.	Seminars - a talk about one or more aspects of Linux.  There is 
usually a question and answer session afterward.
		ii.	Problem-solving - Bring your own computer in and the linux members 
will tinker with it to help solve the problems you're having with linux.

	Promote Linux:   PLUG is most active in their promotion of Linux through 
the running of Installfests.  These allow the general public to have linux 
installed on their computer system by members of PLUG.

1.4	How do I join PLUG?

	The current cost for membership to PLUG is $10.  You can join at one of 
the meetings or by making a secret rendezvous with the Secretary, Tony.

1.5	What are the benefits for members?

	Members get an account on Spark, the association's computer.  They also 
get access to the club library.  They will hopefully soon get discounts at 
certain retailers/ISPs etc.

1.6	When does PLUG meet?

	PLUG meets twice per month:

		2nd Tuesday of the month they meet at Tennyson Group Office (Seminar)
		4th Monday of the month they meet at UCC.	(Problem solver)
	
1.7	Who are the current Office Bearers of PLUG?

	President: 	Matt Kemner
	Vice-President: Ian Kent
	Secretary:	Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima
	Treasurer: David Campbell (acting:Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
	
1.8	Is PLUG incorporated?

	Yes.  We did it so PLUG can hold property and accept donations, monetary 
or hardware.
	

2.0 Mailing List

2.1	How do I join the mailing List?

	To join it send an e-mail to : plug-request at plug.linux.org.au containing 
the word SUBSCRIBE in the subject OR body of the message.

2.2	How do I leave the mailing list?

	You can check out any time you like but you can never leave. 
Bwhahahahahaha!  But seriously, send a message to 
plug-request at plug.linux.org.au containing the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the 
subject OR body of the message.

	DO NOT SEND "UNSUBSCRIBE" MESSAGES TO THE PLUG at PLUG.LINUX.ORG.AU 
ADDRESS!  It annoys us, makes you
look silly in front of everyone and is just generally considered very poor 
form.  Remember we live in the same city.  We can easily find out where you 
live =).


2.3	How busy is the mailing list?

	The mailing list varies in its level of activity.  On average I'd guess 
the list receives about 10-20 messages per day, although there have been 
days with zero messages and sometimes days of 40 or more.

2.4	What is acceptable behaviour?

	No flames.  No trolls.  Basic netiquette.
	If there is someone that you find repeatedly annoys you on the list, don't 
flame them.  Either ignore them or set up a killfile filter. Ask on the 
mailing list how to do this.  It depends on what software you're 
using.  I'll include a basic how-to if necessary.

2.5	What is netiquette?

	Netiquette are the unwritten rules of behaviour on the 
internet.  Fortunately someone has written them down: Go 
here. 
http://dir.yahoo.com/Computers_and_Internet/Internet/Information_and_Documentation/Beginner_s_Guides/Netiquette/

2.6	What are flames, flamebait and trolls?

	A flame is a verbal attack, usually personal in nature.
	Flamebait or a troll is a message (usually offtopic) that is designed to 
incite a negative emotional response:  i.e. strong criticism of particular 
linux distributions, editors, operating systems and even mail servers can 
be considered flamebait. (See 2.8) -

MAINTAINER'S NOTE - Don't criticise the free software movement either.  Not 
even in jest =).


2.7	What has already been discussed?

	A lot of stuff has already been discussed.  New member to the list are 
encouraged to search recent list postings (last few months) in case their 
questions have already been answered.  A search facility is available via 
the web site.


2.8	What topics should I avoid?

	Anything that is controversial or infammatory.  Such things as asking 
which linux distribution is the best.  The answer to this question depends 
on what you're trying to do with linux and assorted other 
factors.  Invariably you'll be told to try the more popular ones (RedHat, 
Debian, Slackware, Mandrake, SUSE, Caldera, etc) and discover which one 
suits your needs best.  While "What is the best distribution?" isn't 
particularly welcome, asking "What is the best distribution/software for me 
to use in <very specific situation>?" is entirely reasonable....  (See also 
7.1)

	Also avoid talking about any topics that have been talked to 
death.  Discussing the reply-to header of the mailing list is definitely a 
topic to be avoided.  If you're new to the list check the archives before 
asking your question.

2.9	Who maintains the mailing list?

	Currently Matt Kemner maintains the list.  He can be reached at 
zombie at wasp.net.au.



3.0 	Web Site
	
3.1	Where is the web site?

	The Web site is at http://plug.linux.org.au/
	
3.2	Who is the web site maintainer?

	The web site is currently maintained by Joshua Pierre (alpha at indigo.net.au).



4.0 The Library
	
4.1	How do I access the library?
	
	The library is currently held by Tony.  To access it you have to contact 
him or show up to one of the meetings.

4.2	What's in the library?

	The library catalogue is here (or will be soon =). 
http://plug.linux.org.au/library/catalogue/


5.0 Spark

5.1	What is Spark?
	
	Spark is PLUG's computer.  It is a SPARC (details?).  It runs the mailing 
list and the web site.  When we can convince it to run more we will =).

5.2	How do I get an account on Spark?

	You have to be a member.  Contact Matt Kemner (zombie at wasp.net.au) for 
further details.


6.0 Linux in Perth
	
6.1	Where can I get Linux in Perth?

	The best and easiest way to get linux is from the PLUG library or from one 
of it's members.  Just ask at a meeting or on the mailing 
list.  Alternatively, if you have a relatively fast net connection (or 
don't mind waiting several days) you can download it from the 
internet.   Linux can also be obtained from a number of retailers.  These 
include:

	i.	Navada Computers
	ii.	Myer
	iii.	Computer Hardware House (do they still exist?)
	iv.	Others (please add to the list)

6.2	Are there any linux-friendly hardware retailers?

	Probably, but I don't know who they are.  Can anyone else help here?
	
6.3	Are there any linux-friendly ISPs?

	i.	IINet Technologies
	ii.	Cantech Online
	iii.	WASP
	iv.	Others (please add to the list)

7.0 Linux Links

7.1	Where can I go to find out more about Linux?  Here's a few off the top 
of my head.  Others please:

	General
		Linux Australia	http://www.linux.org.au/
		Linux Home Page	http://www.linux.org/
		LinuxHQ		http://www.linuxhq.com/
		Linux	Life		http://www.linuxlife.org/

	Distributions
		Red Hat		http://www.redhat.com/
		Debian			http://www.debian.org/
		Slackware		http://www.cdrom.com/
		SUSE			http://www.suse.com/
		Caldera			http://www.caldera.com/
		Mandrake		http://www.mandrake.com/

		A comprehensive review of the various distributions (as at September 
2000) can be found at:

		http://www.apcmag.com/apcmag.nsf/a796bff82774ce0eca25693100486bc9/3bb909f41faf59ddca25694c001fde42!OpenDocument&Highlight=2,Linux

	Applications
		Freshmeat		http://www.freshmeat.net/
		Rufus			http://rufus.w3.org/linux/RPM/

	Security
		http://www.securityportal.com/lasg
		http://www.nic.com/~dave/SecurityAdminGuide/SecurityAdminGuide.html
		http://www.linuxsecurity.com/

	Discussion and News
		Slashdot		http://slashdot.org/
		Linux Today		http://www.linuxtoday.com/

8.0 Miscellaneous

8.1	Contributors

	PLUG would not be possible without the wonderful support of the following 
people and organisations:

	Gary  Allpike for his hard work during the inception of PLUG.
         	Linux Australia for hosting the domain and supporting PLUG.
         	Matt Kemner for spark and for running the mailing list
        	 WASP for bandwidth
         	Linus Torvalds for starting the whole shebang.

--- End FAQ ---

skribe
	Purity:                           62.0% 			
	Corruption:                    38.0%	
	Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
	Weirdness factor:           31%
	Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
	Medieval Career:            Black Knight	



From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Mon Sep 18 11:44:54 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:44:54 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ????? (off topic )
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918094922.00aff748@mail.sweenytod.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000918114031.651A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Bradley Woodward wrote:
> At 09:41 AM 18/09/2000, you wrote:
> >I doubt they would do this given the stranglehold Apache has on the web
> >server market but the idea is definitely something they might consider.
> OS              Hosts           %       Active          %
> Linux           6,116,811       35.73   2,265,095       29.99
> Microsoft       3,644,187       21.32   2,222,841       28.32
> 
> Apache is still in front, but not by a heck of a lot.
OK, assuming that IIS => Windows is plausible, but remember that Apache is
Free Software and is available on an absurd number of platforms. If there
are more _Linux_ servers alone than Microsoft, then I'd say the Apache
numbers would almost certainly constitute a stranglehold.
You should probably have made sure of what your numbers meant before you
tried to argue with Christian - I suspect he did not read your irrelevant 
numbers, having already read the relevant ones himself.

-Greg Mildenhall



From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Mon Sep 18 12:15:30 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (Bradley Woodward)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:15:30 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ????? (off topic )
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000918114031.651A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918094922.00aff748@mail.sweenytod.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918121431.00ba4ef8@mail.sweenytod.com>

At 11:44 AM 18/09/2000, you wrote:
>OK, assuming that IIS => Windows is plausible, but remember that Apache is
>Free Software and is available on an absurd number of platforms. If there
>are more _Linux_ servers alone than Microsoft, then I'd say the Apache
>numbers would almost certainly constitute a stranglehold.
>You should probably have made sure of what your numbers meant before you
>tried to argue with Christian - I suspect he did not read your irrelevant
>numbers, having already read the relevant ones himself.

Uh huh.  I suspect you didn't actually read the web page I posted the URL 
for either.

Perhaps you should have before jumping to conclusions about what I was saying.



=============================================================
Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd.    His skin was pale and his eye was odd.
Always trust an Australian with a razor.

http://www.sweenytod.com               Paranoid is normal, normal is good



From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Mon Sep 18 12:18:48 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (Bradley Woodward)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:18:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] lies, damned lies and statistics.  (OT)
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918121753.03620638@mail.sweenytod.com>

At 11:24 AM 18/09/2000, you wrote:
>What are you talking about?  The page says:
>   Apache loses 6,205,474 sites, causing its share to drop around three
>   percentage points from 62.53% to 59.56%.
>
>The graph shows the changes between sites and normal sites.  That's what
>the numbers say.  Am I reading something wrong?

No, you're not.  Those are the exact counts of web sites recorded, and 
quite accurate.  There are a NEW set of figures though.  (is it just me or 
is this sounding like a bad gangster movie with the crooked accountant 
running two sets of books)

Ok then.  This is the story as I see it writen on the Netcraft webpage at 
http://www.netcraft.com/survey/index-200007.html#active.

Really, it requires reading from about the half way mark.  Look for the 
heading  "How many active sites are there?".  They have an arguement that 
says a large number of all web sites are "non active", and therefore should 
not be included in the final analysis.  It also takes into account virtual 
web sites.  Quite honestly, I'm a tad confused as to how they come by the 
numbers.  What I believe they're doing is taking out stuff like the default 
web pages some domain registration sites create.  For example, register.com 
runs linux servers, but has hundreds of thousands of web sites that are 
just their default "Welcome to foo.com.  This is a default web page, 
because the owner is too lazy to change it."  If you don't count those 
non-active sites, linux/apache loses 1.3 million sites.  Or so Netcraft says.

Quote from Netcraft:  "So, whereas in the early days of the web, hostnames 
were a good indication of actively managed content providing information 
and services to the internet community, the situation now is considerably 
more blurred, with the web including a great deal of activity, but also 
some considerable quantity of sites untouched by human hand, produced 
automatically at the point of customer acquisition by domain registration 
or hosting service companies. "

The whole thing is that Netcraft are no longer counting these automatic web 
pages, and with that done you end up with the set of numbers that says 
Apache is only a few % ahead of MS.

<puff puff>

But even with all this playing of games with the numbers, Apache still wins 
out.

Oddly enough, if you survey just the Fortune 500 companies, most are 
running Netscape servers.  Who'd have guessed.



=============================================================
Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd.    His skin was pale and his eye was odd.
Always trust an Australian with a razor.

http://www.sweenytod.com               Paranoid is normal, normal is good



From colin at durbanet.co.za  Mon Sep 18 12:26:26 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:26:26 +0800
Subject: [plug] lies, damned lies and statistics.  (OT)
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918121753.03620638@mail.sweenytod.com>
Message-ID: <39C59972.B1AE107F@durbanet.co.za>

Bradley Woodward wrote:

> The whole thing is that Netcraft are no longer counting these automatic web
> pages, and with that done you end up with the set of numbers that says
> Apache is only a few % ahead of MS.

You're quoting the Linux vs MS figure, not the Apache vs MS one.

Colin


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Mon Sep 18 12:30:28 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:30:28 +0800
Subject: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <39C59A64.9804E092@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

skribe wrote:
> 
> Here's the alpha-release version of the PLUG FAQ.  I apologise in advance
> if there are problems with formatting.  If you spot any problems please
> forward them to me.  Also if you have anything that should be added contact
> me with the relevant details.
> 

1.4 should include the three different rates of membership fees.

1.5 should mention things like having voting rights, being able to
contribute to rpomoting Linux use and understanding, etc.

1.6 - "they meet" should be replaced by "- meetings are held" -
otherwise, PLUG sounds like something and someone else.

2.4 - flames and trolling; flaming appears to have been acceptable, and,
trolling appears to have amused many. Perhaps. the status of each,
should be clarified.

2.5 - dead link. Returns:
"Yahoo! - Document Not Found

The document you requested was not found. 

The category you are trying to reach may have moved. To find a relocated
category, try searching on the category
name in Yahoo!. 

If you still have problems, please send us email. 
"

2.6 I thought that trolls were done as practical jokes. This is not
mentioned. (I may, however, be wrong)

6.1 I believe that iinet also sells copies. Also, if it is still on
Wellington Street, The Software Centre (that is where we bought RH 6.0
boxed set). Also, Harvey Norman (the Cannington shop sells vraious
distributions).

6.2 Trinix sells Linux boxes - they should be "Linux-friendly".

7.1 General - what about www.li.org? tucows? Also,
http://linux.cnet.com/linux/

8.1 - what about thanking Tennyson, for hosting the meetings, and, UCC?
    Also, does Linux Australia host the domain name, or, WASP? I thought
that WAP does (though, once again, I may be wrong...)

Anyway, it is good to see the FAQ being done. Hope the above is helpful
and useful.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Mon Sep 18 12:34:32 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:34:32 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ????? (off topic )
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918094922.00aff748@mail.sweenytod.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000918122735.651B-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

OK, perhaps you are meaning something else to what everyone thinks you
mean. Since you seem sure that what you have said is accurate, I do not
doubt it, but could you explain how you reach the conclusion you appear to
reach from these figures?

On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Bradley Woodward wrote:
> OS              Hosts           %       Active          %
> Linux           6,116,811       35.73   2,265,095       29.99
> Microsoft       3,644,187       21.32   2,222,841       28.32
> 
> Apache is still in front, but not by a heck of a lot.

Or were the table and the comment not meant to be related?

-Greg




From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Mon Sep 18 12:48:16 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (Bradley Woodward)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:48:16 +0800
Subject: [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ????? (off topic )
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000918122735.651B-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918094922.00aff748@mail.sweenytod.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918124243.00b73628@mail.sweenytod.com>

At 12:34 PM 18/09/2000, you wrote:
>OK, perhaps you are meaning something else to what everyone thinks you
>mean. Since you seem sure that what you have said is accurate, I do not
>doubt it, but could you explain how you reach the conclusion you appear to
>reach from these figures?
>
>On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Bradley Woodward wrote:
> > OS              Hosts           %       Active          %
> > Linux           6,116,811       35.73   2,265,095       29.99
> > Microsoft       3,644,187       21.32   2,222,841       28.32
> >
> > Apache is still in front, but not by a heck of a lot.
>
>Or were the table and the comment not meant to be related?

As somebody else pointed out, I'm quoting Linux vs MS figures, not IIS vs 
Apache figures.  I wonder what difference that makes.  Let's see.  We have 
Zeus on Linux as well, and Netscape stuff too.  Netscape is mostly high end 
enterprise sites, and running on Solaris they say.

I made the assumption that Linux == Apache, and that is obviously 
wrong.  Which I suspect is the point you were both making.  sigh.

So, I shall now shut the hell up, go and drink another coffee, and leave 
you all in peace.




=============================================================
Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd.    His skin was pale and his eye was odd.
Always trust an Australian with a razor.

http://www.sweenytod.com               Paranoid is normal, normal is good



From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Mon Sep 18 12:55:18 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (Bradley Woodward)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:55:18 +0800
Subject: [plug] PDA's
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918125512.00b73210@mail.ami.com.au>

In the hope of sounding intelligent this time, I have an easier thing to 
talk about.

I've decided to indulge in a little retail therapy, and buy a PDA.  The 
people around here all talk about things that run the latest version of 
Windows CE, which is exactly what I'm NOT looking for.

So...  Can somebody please point me in the direction of a PDA that does or 
can run Linux.


Thanks.


=============================================================
Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd.    His skin was pale and his eye was odd.
Always trust an Australian with a razor.

http://www.sweenytod.com               Paranoid is normal, normal is good



From clintcar at bigpond.com  Mon Sep 18 11:07:24 2000
From: clintcar at bigpond.com (Clint Carlson)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:07:24 +1000
Subject: [plug] Wine....need help
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918094922.00aff748@mail.sweenytod.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000918124243.00b73628@mail.sweenytod.com>
Message-ID: <001801c0211d$92985980$ed94868b@pbncomputer>

Greetings all...as a first time linux user I am in need of some serious help
with setting up my wine.ini file...... could someone send me a sample file
or at least lead me to a source which can give me a little simpler
information than that supplied with wine?



From brad at mapsys.com.au  Mon Sep 18 13:26:04 2000
From: brad at mapsys.com.au (Bradley Browne)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:26:04 +0800
Subject: [plug] PDA's
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918125512.00b73210@mail.ami.com.au>
Message-ID: <39C5A76C.7C4695DC@mapsys.com.au>


I have found the following URL useful in diagnosing my next PDA
http://www.pocketlinux.com/
I am sure there is more though.

Brad

Bradley Woodward wrote:
> 
> In the hope of sounding intelligent this time, I have an easier thing to
> talk about.
> 
> I've decided to indulge in a little retail therapy, and buy a PDA.  The
> people around here all talk about things that run the latest version of
> Windows CE, which is exactly what I'm NOT looking for.
> 
> So...  Can somebody please point me in the direction of a PDA that does or
> can run Linux.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> =============================================================
> Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd.    His skin was pale and his eye was odd.
> Always trust an Australian with a razor.
> 
> http://www.sweenytod.com               Paranoid is normal, normal is good

--
Bradley Browne
GIS Application Specialist
Digital Mapping Solutions

Level 2, 2 Hardy Street
South Perth 6151
Ph: 08 9474 6311   Fax: 08 9474 6411
email: brad at mapsys.com.au
http://www.mapsys.com.au/


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Mon Sep 18 13:32:10 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:32:10 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
In-Reply-To: <39C59A64.9804E092@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000918132523.6668N-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> 6.1 I believe that iinet also sells copies. Also, if it is still on
> Wellington Street, The Software Centre (that is where we bought RH 6.0
> boxed set). Also, Harvey Norman (the Cannington shop sells vraious
> distributions).

Linux Services WA also sells all versions of Linux & applications, and is
a Linux friendly hardware retailer.

> 8.1 - what about thanking Tennyson, for hosting the meetings, and, UCC?
>     Also, does Linux Australia host the domain name, or, WASP? I thought
> that WAP does (though, once again, I may be wrong...)

Spark hosts the plug.linux.org.au domain, Linux Aust hosts the
linux.org.au domain and Munnari & Connect etc host the .org.au and .au
domains.

That paragraph should probably be changed to:
Linux Australia for initially hosting the domain and mailing list .....

 - Matt



From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Mon Sep 18 13:46:57 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (Bradley Woodward)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:46:57 +0800
Subject: [plug] PDA's
In-Reply-To: <39C5A76C.7C4695DC@mapsys.com.au>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918125512.00b73210@mail.ami.com.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918134511.00ba4ef8@mail.sweenytod.com>

At 01:26 PM 18/09/2000, you wrote:
>I have found the following URL useful in diagnosing my next PDA
>http://www.pocketlinux.com/

Great, thanks a lot.

>I am sure there is more though.

I found a neat site sponsered by Compaq, http://www.handhelds.org/.  It's a 
site that is suppoed to gather support for open source software for 
handheld and wearable computers.  They (compaq) also ported Linux to their 
iPAQ PDA.

Sweet.



=============================================================
Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd.    His skin was pale and his eye was odd.
Always trust an Australian with a razor.

http://www.sweenytod.com               Paranoid is normal, normal is good



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Mon Sep 18 13:48:44 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:48:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] Hosting query (was Re: [plug] FAQ - alpha release)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000918132523.6668N-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39C5ACBC.1F3FCA07@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Matt Kemner wrote:
> 
<snip>

> > 8.1 - what about thanking Tennyson, for hosting the meetings, and, UCC?
> >     Also, does Linux Australia host the domain name, or, WASP? I thought
> > that WAP does (though, once again, I may be wrong...)
> 
> Spark hosts the plug.linux.org.au domain, Linux Aust hosts the
> linux.org.au domain and Munnari & Connect etc host the .org.au and .au
> domains.
> 
> That paragraph should probably be changed to:
> Linux Australia for initially hosting the domain and mailing list .....
> 
>  - Matt

I don't understand; I thought that Spark is the name of the machine, and
that WASP provided the hosting. I had understood that an ISP could host
a domain name, with the domain name owner providing a machine to the
ISP, with the machine running onsite at the ISP, with all the wbesite
stuff for the domain name, running  on the web server, or, that an ISP
could provide virtual hosting for a domain name, whence the ISP provides
space on one of its web servers, for the website associated with a
domain name.

I had understood that a sparcstation was used as a webserver for the
PLUG stuff (the domain name, and member websites, etc), and that the web
server (Sparc PLUG) is located at WASP, where the PLUG domain name and
associated websites (the PLUG websites, and the member websites), are
hosted.

As I appear to have got all this completely wrong, could all of this be
clarified, please?

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Mon Sep 18 14:18:06 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:18:06 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Hosting query (was Re: [plug] FAQ - alpha release)
In-Reply-To: <39C5ACBC.1F3FCA07@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000918135719.6668O-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> I don't understand; I thought that Spark is the name of the machine, and
> that WASP provided the hosting. I had understood that an ISP could host
> a domain name, with the domain name owner providing a machine to the
> ISP, with the machine running onsite at the ISP, with all the wbesite
> stuff for the domain name, running  on the web server, or, that an ISP
> could provide virtual hosting for a domain name, whence the ISP provides
> space on one of its web servers, for the website associated with a
> domain name.

Bret,

Any machine with a fixed (static) IP address that runs some type of
nameserver (eg BIND) is able to host a domain. You don't need to pay your
ISP to host it for you (but then usually you're paying them for the
machine hosting, or dialup static IP anyway)

plug.linux.org.au is delegated to "plug.linux.org.au" (IP 202.61.164.81)
and "wormhole.wasp.net.au" (IP 202.61.164.5) and Spark is configured as
the primary, which is why I said Spark hosts the domain.

I was just trying to convey that PLUG is in control of the domain, not
WASP.

(Although considering the same person's in charge of both, it's probably a
 pointless argument)

> I had understood that a sparcstation was used as a webserver for the
> PLUG stuff (the domain name, and member websites, etc), and that the web
> server (Sparc PLUG) is located at WASP, where the PLUG domain name and
> associated websites (the PLUG websites, and the member websites), are
> hosted.

That's quite a confusing way of saying:

PLUG's mailserver, webserver, primary dns server and members' area is
hosted on PLUG's own machine (Spark)

Spark currently resides in WASP's machine room.

All WASP provides is the power, bandwidth and physical space (sitting on
top of a "Hey this server is actually kind of stable"[1] NT box) ;) 

 - Matt

[1] http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99oct/19991001.html



From kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au  Mon Sep 18 15:00:53 2000
From: kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au (Shackleton, Kevin)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:00:53 +0800
Subject: [plug] [contains rant] Linux in schools (was: public company?
	)
Message-ID: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E3131F@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>

I should have said - 'free' MS software is only to government schools.  I
would have thought you would have spent more than $7000 the last two years,
NT4 being $3000 on its own, and we've covered the rorts in SQL-Server
licensing . .

K.

> ----------
> From: 	Paul Baumgarten[SMTP:paul at bauma.com.au]
> 
> From the cost perspective we have saved an
> estimated $7000 in licensing.
> 


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Mon Sep 18 14:55:54 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:55:54 +0800
Subject: [plug] Hosting query (was Re: [plug] FAQ - alpha release)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000918135719.6668O-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39C5BC7A.B0DB4BF3@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Matt Kemner wrote:
> 
<snip>

> All WASP provides is the power, bandwidth and physical space (sitting on
> top of a "Hey this server is actually kind of stable"[1] NT box) ;)
> 
>  - Matt
> 
> [1] http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99oct/19991001.html

Very good :)

Thanks for the advice.

So, does WASP provide free permanent Internet connection for the server
(Sparc PLUG) ?


From grogers at greenwood.wa.edu.au  Mon Sep 18 15:00:59 2000
From: grogers at greenwood.wa.edu.au (Gavin Rogers)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 07:00:59 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [plug] [contains rant] Linux in schools (was: public company?
 )
In-Reply-To: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E3131F@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009180657320.32030-100000@joan.greenwood.wa.edu.au>



On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Shackleton, Kevin wrote:

> I should have said - 'free' MS software is only to government schools.  I
> would have thought you would have spent more than $7000 the last two years,
> NT4 being $3000 on its own, and we've covered the rorts in SQL-Server
> licensing . .

Also, we get 'OS upgrades' for free but not the OS itself. So we're still
stuck buying a copy of Windows for practically each and every machine. The
upgrade to NT workstation is then free.

I'm not 100% on the licensing agreement for 'big stuff' like NT server,
but I believe a license still has to be paid for them.

Of course, it goes without saying that we loathe to use NT unless it's
absolutely necessary. Linux systems have done all of our internet related
'stuff' for over a year now with no problems whatsoever.


Regards,
Gavin Rogers
Network administrator
Greenwood Senior High School





From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 18 15:28:20 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:28:20 +0800
Subject: [plug] [OTICHO]* IE-only webservers
References: <20000918010910.16872.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com> <20000918094109.A8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39C5C414.93101901@brooks.smileys.net>

Christian wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 06:09:10PM -0700, Andrew Furey wrote:
>>> I would not be suprised if microsoft releases web
>>> servers that only IE will work on

>> IMHO it would be the other way, MS would release a
>> version of IE that only works on their web servers.
>> They tried basically the same thing with W2K and
>> Kerberos (IIRC).
>> Remember, their monopoly (for now :) is the desktop,
>> so they would try to leverage that to get the server
>> monopoly.

> I doubt they would do this given the stranglehold Apache has on the web
> server market but the idea is definitely something they might consider.
> Either way, they backed down with Kerberos which is a fairly unimportant
> protocol compared with, say, HTTP so imagine what the outcry would be if
> they did.

I agree that they wouldn't do this outright. Remember, their catch-cry is
"embrace and extend", so what they would do (have done) is make webservers and
browsers that "work better" together, or in other words, have proprietary
_extensions_ to existing protocols, so that each will actually work with
3rd-party products, just "better" with Microsoft products.

DAV was actually a half-hearted attempt at this, neatly torpedoed by the author
of mod_dav (round of applause). C# is a very unsubtle attempt at resurrecting
"Project Cool" AKA corrupting Java. Evidently they've given up the stealth
approach so now appear to be set to work towards their aim brashly. The OSS
answer would be toolsets for migrating _away_ from C# to something like Java or
Python.

* OTICHO == "Off Topic In Christian's Humble Opinion" (-:

-- 
"Happiness is a warm puppy", said the anaconda.


From paul at kcc.wa.edu.au  Mon Sep 18 15:31:01 2000
From: paul at kcc.wa.edu.au (Paul Baumgarten)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:31:01 +0800
Subject: [plug] [contains rant] Linux in schools (was: public company?)
References: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E3131F@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <39C5C4B5.93213DE@kcc.wa.edu.au>

Nah... even private K-12 schools get reasonably good (as in better than
real world) pricing.

WinNT4 Server costs ~ $150 to $300 and client access licensing costs ~
$10 to $20 per seat (it varies a little bit from school to school
depending on which programme your volume qualifies you for).  With
education Microsoft are basically doing the same thing with schools that
Apple did in it's early days.  "Giving it away" so that it is what
people are trained on and then purchase when in business.  Even still,
it is money I would rather save and I know that many other schools are
in the same boat.

While the Server OS is comparibly cheap for schools, MS does make good
money on the Apps side of things.  So using your figure, where I might
pay 10% of retail for the Server, for MS Office I pay around 30% - 40%
and since there are a lot more workstations than servers, there is still
a considerable MS tax being paid. 

"Shackleton, Kevin" wrote:
> 
> I should have said - 'free' MS software is only to government schools.  I
> would have thought you would have spent more than $7000 the last two years,
> NT4 being $3000 on its own, and we've covered the rorts in SQL-Server
> licensing . .
> 
> > From:         Paul Baumgarten[SMTP:paul at bauma.com.au]
> >
> > From the cost perspective we have saved an
> > estimated $7000 in licensing.
> >

-- 
Paul Baumgarten
Information Systems Manager, Kingsway Christian College
Email: paul at bauma.com.au or paul at kcc.wa.edu.au
Mobile: 041 994 2779


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Mon Sep 18 15:34:13 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:34:13 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Hosting query (was Re: [plug] FAQ - alpha release)
In-Reply-To: <39C5BC7A.B0DB4BF3@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000918151411.6668P-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> So, does WASP provide free permanent Internet connection for the server
> (Sparc PLUG) ?

Yes, with the request (which is passed onto everyone who obtains a spark
account) of "Please don't abuse it"

Spark currently seems to use about 150MB of incoming data and 450MB of
outgoing data per month.

> I am not trying to be pedantic; but, it seems to me, that, if WASP is
> providing PLUG with a free service, for which PLUG would otherwise be
> paying, then, it would be fair to include WASP in the credits.

It is :) Second line from the bottom of the FAQ

 - Matt




From skribe at amber.com.au  Mon Sep 18 15:39:37 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:39:37 +0800
Subject: [plug] [contains rant] Linux in schools (was: public
  company?)
In-Reply-To: <39C5C4B5.93213DE@kcc.wa.edu.au>
References: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919E3131F@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000918153842.00bf9ef0@amber.com.au>

At 15:31 18/09/00, Paul Baumgarten wrote:
>With education Microsoft are basically doing the same thing with schools that
>Apple did in it's early days.  "Giving it away" so that it is what
>people are trained on and then purchase when in business.

Hey, we should do that with linux: give it awa....doh! =)

skribe
	Purity:                           62.0% 			
	Corruption:                    38.0%	
	Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
	Weirdness factor:           31%
	Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
	Medieval Career:            Black Knight	



From andrew.mcmeikan at mitswa.com.au  Mon Sep 18 15:56:06 2000
From: andrew.mcmeikan at mitswa.com.au (McMeikan, Andrew)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:56:06 +0800
Subject: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
Message-ID: <54A50136B6CAD3118FBD00C00D00DDEF0372CD@mits_perth_com1.mitswa.com.au>

I object to this, not that I have any criticism, but in the spirit of
continuous improvement I'd want to hear it.

	cya,	Andrew...

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	skribe [SMTP:skribe at amber.com.au]
> Sent:	Monday, September 18, 2000 11:28 AM
> To:	plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Subject:	[plug] FAQ - alpha release
> 
> Here's the alpha-release version of the PLUG FAQ.  I apologise in advance 
> if there are problems with formatting.  If you spot any problems please 
> forward them to me.  Also if you have anything that should be added
> contact 
> me with the relevant details.
	<snip>

> MAINTAINER'S NOTE - Don't criticise the free software movement either.
> Not 
> even in jest =).
> 
	<snip>
The information transmitted is intended for the person or entity to 
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged 
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, copying or other 
use of, or taking any action in reliance upon, this information by 
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If 
you have received this in error, please contact the sender and delete 
the material from your system. Utility Services Corporation (USC) is not 
responsible for any changes made to the material other than those made 
by USC or for the effect of the changes on the material?s meaning.


From christian at amnet.net.au  Mon Sep 18 16:43:33 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:43:33 +0800
Subject: [plug] PDA's
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918125512.00b73210@mail.ami.com.au>; from sweenytod@sweenytod.com on Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 12:55:18PM +0800
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918125512.00b73210@mail.ami.com.au>
Message-ID: <20000918164332.F8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 12:55:18PM +0800, Bradley Woodward wrote:
> In the hope of sounding intelligent this time, I have an easier thing to 
> talk about.
> I've decided to indulge in a little retail therapy, and buy a PDA.  The 
> people around here all talk about things that run the latest version of 
> Windows CE, which is exactly what I'm NOT looking for.
> So...  Can somebody please point me in the direction of a PDA that does or 
> can run Linux.

At risk of sounding controversial, why do you want a handheld that runs
Linux?  If it's just for the cool factor/hack value then fair enough.
(For me personally, spending $1000+ for a toy is a little hard to
justify!) But otherwise, Linux on a handheld may not be the best way to
go.  For example, PalmOS is much less resource hungry than Linux.
Therefore it can run on less powerful hardware.  Therefore PalmOS
devices are smaller and faster and cost less.  Secondly, I don't know
about you but I spend most of my time communicating with my Linux
systems via the keyboard.  Even the latest GUIs can't beat the GNU
utilities and bash for speed, flexibility and power.  Most handhelds
either don't come with a keyboard or they come with a small one that is
awkward to use (plus making the device much larger, heavier and more
expensive).  Sure, you can get detachable keyboards (I have one for my
Palm) but they very often defeat the purpose of a handheld.  The fact
is, Linux systems (as are found on the desktop) are not really suitable
for handhelds IMHO.  PDAs like the YOPY that use Linux will probably end
up being highly simplified and handheldified GUIs (to make the system
usable) built on top of a Linux kernel.  Sure you can always probably
strip them away and just use Linux but it'll probably be slow and/or
very, very awkward.  My advice is that, if you want the power of Linux
to be portable, get a small laptop.  Otherwise, if you want a PDA, then
think seriously about a Palm.  You can get the colour Palm IIIc for $700
now or the incredibly sleek Vx (LCD) for $600 or so.  They integrate
nicely with Linux and the support is only going to get better.  They
aren't as powerful or as spectacular as the new PocketPC's (which can
have 32MB of RAM, 16-bit colour and MP3 playback) but they have longer
battery life, run much faster, have more applications available, will
work with Linux and tend to be smaller.  Anyway, I guess it depends a
lot on what you're looking for... but if you're looking at PDAs then my
advice is to look for something small, highly usable, highly flexible,
fast and convenient.  Unfortunately, on a handheld, Linux is probably
none of those things.

Regards,

Christian.


From gmalcolm at cygnus.uwa.edu.au  Mon Sep 18 17:13:16 2000
From: gmalcolm at cygnus.uwa.edu.au (Grant Malcolm)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:13:16 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] PDA's
In-Reply-To: <20000918164332.F8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000918165341.3244V-100000@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>

Ditto everything that Christian had to say about PDA's generally plus a
couple of quick points. 

1) There is a group working on porting uCLinux to modified Pilot hardware.

http://www.uclinux.org/
http://www.trgnet.com/Palm/News/linux.htm

2) From 10 years of heavy PDA use, if it doesn't fit comfortably in my
shirt pocket, no length of feature list will convince me to use it. 

3) um... Christian are you sure this isn't all moving a little off-topic?

;)

Cheers
Grant

------------------------------------------------
CONNECT with your LOCAL THEATRE
                     http://www.theatre.asn.au
------------------------------------------------




From christian at amnet.net.au  Mon Sep 18 17:21:40 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:21:40 +0800
Subject: [plug] PDA's
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000918165341.3244V-100000@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>; from gmalcolm@cygnus.uwa.edu.au on Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 05:13:16PM +0800
References: <20000918164332.F8341@eagle.amnet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000918165341.3244V-100000@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20000918172140.G8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 05:13:16PM +0800, Grant Malcolm wrote:
> 3) um... Christian are you sure this isn't all moving a little off-topic?

Well, he asked a question and I gave my opinion so I don't think I
steered it too far off topic if at all. :)  Besides, given that today's
major discussion topics have been evil Microsoft propaganda, software
licensing costs for schools and Apache's market share, I think my reply
was surprisingly good! :P


From alpha at indigo.net.au  Mon Sep 18 17:47:31 2000
From: alpha at indigo.net.au (Joshua Pierre)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:47:31 +0800
Subject: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au>; from skribe@amber.com.au on Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 11:32:05AM +0800
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <20000918174731.B11397@indigo.net.au>

Umm,

yuo can  also get linux from http://www.everythinglinux.com.au and htttp://www.lsl.com.au.

Indigo Networks is also a linux based and linux friendly ISP.

http://www.indigo.net.au for more info.

Cheers,

Josh

-- 
Joshua Pierre		Indigo Networks - Technical Support
alpha at indigo.net.au	http://www.indigo.net.au



From Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au  Mon Sep 18 17:52:11 2000
From: Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au (Brian Tombleson)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:52:11 +0800
Subject: [plug] PDA's
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918125512.00b73210@mail.ami.com.au> <20000918164332.F8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00f601c02156$1e034a10$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>

I agree with most of what Cristian says, but the slip-side (between this
side and the flip side :) I would like to point out is that I don't think it
hurts to show how flexible and extensible Linux can be, so good luck to
porting it to PDA's - just because I won't use it doesn't mean it doesn't
deserve to be tried.

Also, I think it's good to extend the GNU/FSF philosophy onto all mediums.
If (for some unthinkable reason) the PDA's completely replace the desktop
computer, I would hate to think that proprietary vendors have once again
cornered the market with deal-making and customizations on hardware so the
Linux and free software movement is set back to the dark ages.

Just thoughts.

-Brian.



From ojw at iinet.net.au  Mon Sep 18 18:03:31 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:03:31 +0000
Subject: [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ????? (off topic )
References: <20000918010910.16872.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com>
	 <20000918010910.16872.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000918094922.00aff748@mail.sweenytod.com>
Message-ID: <39C5E873.BDBEFFC7@iinet.net.au>

Bradley Woodward wrote:

> http://www.netcraft.com/survey/index-200007.html#active has the
> gossip.  The interesting bit is at the bottom, where we see:
>
> OS              Hosts           %       Active          %
> Linux           6,116,811       35.73   2,265,095       29.99
> Microsoft       3,644,187       21.32   2,222,841       28.32
>
> Apache is still in front, but not by a heck of a lot.

You can run Apache on Windows... what do these figures mean?

--
Oliver White



From ojw at iinet.net.au  Mon Sep 18 18:06:01 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:06:01 +0000
Subject: [plug] MS Freedom to inovate network ????? (off topic )
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918094922.00aff748@mail.sweenytod.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000918124243.00b73628@mail.sweenytod.com>
Message-ID: <39C5E909.10615FFF@iinet.net.au>

Bradley Woodward wrote:

> I made the assumption that Linux == Apache, and that is obviously
> wrong.  Which I suspect is the point you were both making.  sigh.
>
> So, I shall now shut the hell up, go and drink another coffee, and leave
> you all in peace.

Hehe. Nevermind. :-)

--
Oliver White



From sweenytod at sweenytod.com  Mon Sep 18 18:08:49 2000
From: sweenytod at sweenytod.com (Bradley Woodward)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:08:49 +0800
Subject: [plug] PDA's
In-Reply-To: <20000918164332.F8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918125512.00b73210@mail.ami.com.au> <20000918164332.F8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00091818084900.01025@quag2>

On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Christian wrote:

> At risk of sounding controversial, why do you want a handheld that runs
> Linux?  If it's just for the cool factor/hack value then fair enough.

Well, two reasons.  I do want one for the normal PDA things, such as address 
books, hand held diary, that sort of thing.  The main reason I wanted a linux 
version was that I want to try and develop some software for it.  The idea of 
a hand held hooking up to my digital camera and automatically downloading the 
pictures sounded rather neat.  :)

It is a good question though.  I'm not sure I can get past the cool 
factor/hack value comment though.  Truth be told, that's part of the reason 
too.

> (For me personally, spending $1000+ for a toy is a little hard to
> justify!) But otherwise, Linux on a handheld may not be the best way to
> go.  For example, PalmOS is much less resource hungry than Linux.
> Therefore it can run on less powerful hardware.  Therefore PalmOS
> devices are smaller and faster and cost less.  Secondly, I don't know
> about you but I spend most of my time communicating with my Linux
> systems via the keyboard.

No, you're exactly right.  That's how I work too, and how I'm thinking of 
going anyway.  PalmOS is designed for the platform, and while Linux will run 
on it, I don't think it's the most appropriate.

Now to beat up on the budget and find the cash.

Thanks for the comments.


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 18 18:37:27 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:37:27 +0800
Subject: [plug] skribe'd FAQ
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <39C5F067.C64DD847@brooks.smileys.net>

skribe wrote:
> Here's the alpha-release version of the PLUG FAQ.

Now that's a strangely, er, connected, pair of lines...

-- 
I have had a perfectly wonderful evening.
But this wasn't it.  -- Groucho Marx


From skribe at amber.com.au  Mon Sep 18 18:47:21 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:47:21 +0800
Subject: [plug] skribe'd FAQ
In-Reply-To: <39C5F067.C64DD847@brooks.smileys.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000918184604.00c05290@amber.com.au>

@thwack!! =)

skribe
	Purity:                           62.0% 			
	Corruption:                    38.0%	
	Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
	Weirdness factor:           31%
	Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
	Medieval Career:            Black Knight	



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 18 20:04:53 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 20:04:53 +0800
Subject: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <39C604E5.43D1692A@brooks.smileys.net>

skribe wrote:
> 1.0 General Information
>         1.3     What does PLUG do?
          1.3a    What does PLUG plan to do next?
>         1.4     How do I join PLUG?

> 2.0 Mailing List
>         2.1     How do I join the mailing List?
>         2.2     How do I leave the mailing list?
          2.2a    Are there archives of the list?
>         2.3     How busy is the mailing list?

> 5.0 Spark
>         5.1     What is Spark?
          5.1a    What can I use Spark for?
>         5.2     How do I get an account on Spark?

> 6.0 Linux in Perth
>         6.1     Where can I get Linux in Perth?
> *       6.2     Are there any linux-friendly retailers?
>         6.3     Are there any linux-friendly ISPs?
          6.4     Are there any local Linux gurus or pay-for support?

>         PLUG stands for Perth Linux User Group.  It is an association dealing
> primarily with all forms and distributions of the GNU/Linux computer
> operating system.

We also welcome users of ``fellow-traveller'' operating systems: FreeBSD,
OpenBSD, NetBSD and the like.

>         Apart from saving the world,

Uh, wasn't that supposed to read ``dominating the world''?

>         Website:  The website allows members to keep informed about the latest
> club activities and news.  It's our virtual newsletter.  It also has a
> search facility, so that members can check the archives of the mailing
> list, and a listing of the library's contents. See also 3.0.

Individual members may choose to exhibit their personal websites at
http://plug.linux.org.au/~membername/

>         Promote Linux:   PLUG is most active in their promotion of Linux through
> the running of Installfests.  These allow the general public to have linux
> installed on their computer system by members of PLUG.

``PLUG seeks to promote Linux with a variety of activities. One of these
activities is the InstallFest, designed to get new members and non-members on
their feet with Linux for the first time. Many computers are delivered with
Windows pre-installed, and the InstallFest is a partial answer to this head
start.

``PLUG also organises other community activities from time to time, such as
Quakeathons and other high-bandwidth networked gatherings. This also provides
another excuse to tinker with hardware and drivers.''

> 1.4     How do I join PLUG?

>         The current cost for membership to PLUG is $10.

Per annum? What about students, pensioners, unemployed? Corporate membership?
Flat rate? Includes GST? GST-exempt?

Raising this to a more realistic level to assist PLUG in raising sufficent funds
for hiring venues, pay-for promotion and other real-world expenses would be
good.

> 1.5     What are the benefits for members?

>         Members get an account on Spark, the association's computer.

``See also 5.1''

>         PLUG meets twice per month:
> 
>                 2nd Tuesday of the month they meet at Tennyson Group Office (Seminar)
>                 4th Monday of the month they meet at UCC.       (Problem solver)

Please expand the acronym, and explain that "the Univesity" is UWA (and expand
that too). http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/

> But seriously, send a message to
> plug-request at plug.linux.org.au containing the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the
> subject OR body of the message.

``Note: this is plug<b>-request</b>@..., not just plug at ...''

>         No flames.  No trolls.  Basic netiquette.

> 2.6     What are flames, flamebait and trolls?

>         A flame is a verbal attack, usually personal in nature.
>         Flamebait or a troll is a message (usually offtopic) that is designed to
> incite a negative emotional response:  i.e. strong criticism of particular
> linux distributions, editors, operating systems and even mail servers can
> be considered flamebait. (See 2.8) -

Asking ``How do I killfile Xxxx Xxxxx'' (Xxxx Xxxxx representing a real name) on
the list is considered trolling.

> A search facility is available via
> the web site.

``via the website'' should be a hyperlink to the search facility.

> 2.8     What topics should I avoid?
> 
>         Anything that is controversial or infammatory.

Leading to the crime of infammy? (-: s/infammatory/inflammatory/

> Discussing the reply-to header of the mailing list is definitely a
> topic to be avoided.  If you're new to the list check the archives before
> asking your question.

Actually a ``death row'' composed largely of archived messages illustrating the
original question and any conclusion(s) reached would be a good idea.

> Currently Matt Kemner maintains the list.  He can be reached at
> zombie at wasp.net.au.

Go for the standard: <a href="URL">"Matt Kemner" &lt;zombie at wasp.net.au&gt;</a>

> The web site is currently maintained by Joshua Pierre (alpha at indigo.net.au).

Truly alpha, and not a1pha?

> Spark is PLUG's computer.  It is a SPARC (details?).  It runs the mailing
> list and the web site.  When we can convince it to run more we will =).

And scripting (PERL and PHP) for the web pages, and (I think) an SQL database,
maybe PostgreSQL but haven't checked and the memory is dim.

> 6.2     Are there any linux-friendly hardware retailers?

>         Probably, but I don't know who they are.  Can anyone else help here?

Computer Clinic (http://www.cclinic.com.au) also do hardware. And the website
may even say so one day.

> 6.3     Are there any linux-friendly ISPs?

>         iv.     Others (please add to the list)

Indigo.net.au
Aceonline.net.au

> 7.1     Where can I go to find out more about Linux?  Here's a few off the top
> of my head.  Others please:
> 
>         General
>                 Linux Australia http://www.linux.org.au/
>                 Linux Home Page http://www.linux.org/
>                 LinuxHQ         http://www.linuxhq.com/
>                 Linux   Life            http://www.linuxlife.org/

Linux News  http://www.linuxtoday.com/
            http://lwn.net/

>         Distributions
>                 Mandrake                http://www.mandrake.com/

http://www.linux-mandrake.com/

>         Applications
>                 Freshmeat               http://www.freshmeat.net/
>                 Rufus                   http://rufus.w3.org/linux/RPM/

                  Scientific Apps on Linux
http://sal.kachinatech.com/index.shtml
                  LinuxApps (Internet.Com owns) http://www.linuxapps.com/

>         Security
>                 http://www.securityportal.com/lasg
>                 http://www.nic.com/~dave/SecurityAdminGuide/SecurityAdminGuide.html
>                 http://www.linuxsecurity.com/

                  http://rootprompt.org/
                  http://www.securityfocus.com/
                  http://www.kerneli.org/

>         Discussion and News
>                 Slashdot                http://slashdot.org/
>                 Linux Today             http://www.linuxtoday.com/
                  Linux Weekly News       http://lwn.net/
                  Linux.Com               http://www.linux.com/
                  GeekNews                http://www.geeknews.org/

> Gary Allpike for his hard work during the inception of PLUG

``, free hosting of the initial PLUG website, and continuing to host the main
Linux Australia server.''

> Matt Kemner for spark and for running the mailing list

``, and for always being right but never insisting.''

> WASP for bandwidth
> Linus Torvalds for starting the whole shebang.

Tony Breeds-Taurima for a stupendous amount of work and expense getting the
incorporation done.

Tennyson Group for hosting our meetings.

The University Compuer Club at the University of Western Australia for hosting
our fix-it nights.

Canning Technical College for providing an Installfest venue (plus numerous
sponsors - IBM?)

>         Medieval Career:            Black Knight

Going to Helen Rowe's wedding?

-- 
Instant sex will never be better than the kind you have to peel and cook.


From dhill at wantree.com.au  Mon Sep 18 22:00:47 2000
From: dhill at wantree.com.au (Damion Hill)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:00:47 +0800
Subject: [plug] IPChains
Message-ID: <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds>

I'm hoping to get a pointer here.

I've set up a script to apply the IPChains I wish to use for my home 
network and have them working. The one thing that needs attention 
is the setting for the IP address. All of the details I've found in doco 
refer to static IP or DHCP. I dial to iiNet who assign an ip 
depending on which port you've dialed in to.

How can I automate the IP setting in my script? At present I'm 
using ifconfig to get the address and editing a macro in the script 
before applying the rules. There has to be an easier way!!

Cheers,
Damion.
--
Damion Hill
dhill at wantree.com.au


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Mon Sep 18 22:04:34 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:04:34 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] IPChains
In-Reply-To: <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000918220305.6668S-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Damion Hill wrote:

> The one thing that needs attention is the setting for the IP address.  I
> dial to iiNet who assign an ip depending on which port you've dialed in
> to. 

What is in the script (and what does it do) and why does it need to know
your IP address?

 - Matt



From dhill at wantree.com.au  Mon Sep 18 22:22:51 2000
From: dhill at wantree.com.au (Damion Hill)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:22:51 +0800
Subject: [plug] IPChains
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000918220305.6668S-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
References: <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds>
Message-ID: <200009181422.WAA18038@zaphod.frogstar.dds>



On 18 Sep 00, at 22:04, Matt Kemner wrote:

> On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Damion Hill wrote:
> 
> > The one thing that needs attention is the setting for the IP
> > address.  I dial to iiNet who assign an ip depending on which port
> > you've dialed in to. 
> 
> What is in the script (and what does it do) and why does it need to
> know your IP address?
> 
Matt,

This is an excert from my script

# Macro defs
PPPADDR="203.59.179.249"
UNPRIVPORTS="1024:65535"

# Retrieve mail (POP3) from any host
ipchains -A input -j ACCEPT -i ppp0 -p tcp -s any/0 110 -d 
$PPPADDR $UNPRIVPORT
ipchains -A output -j ACCEPT -i ppp0 -p tcp -d any/0 110 -s 
$PPPADDR $UNPRIVPORT

A reply from Kai (off list) showed me that he is using the interface 
(ppp0) rather than the IP address. I think this is where I'm going 
wrong.

Damion.
--
Damion Hill
dhill at wantree.com.au


From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Mon Sep 18 22:43:59 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:43:59 +0800
Subject: [plug] IPChains
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000918220305.6668S-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <001601c0217e$e1db1080$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

Hi Damion,
I put in two lines of text and that's it !!

route add default ppp0
ipfwadm -F -a m -S 192.168.0.0/24 -D 0.0.0.0/0

I have no problems.

The RH 6.2 equiv to that is:
route add default ppp0
ipchains -A forward -s 192.168.0.0/24 -j MASQ

Of course you need to be root to do that and you must make sure that your
internal address (the 192....) matches yours.
I hope this helps...

/Kai

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Kemner" <zombie at wasp.net.au>
To: "Perth Linux Users Group" <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [plug] IPChains


> On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Damion Hill wrote:
>
> > The one thing that needs attention is the setting for the IP address.  I
> > dial to iiNet who assign an ip depending on which port you've dialed in
> > to.
>
> What is in the script (and what does it do) and why does it need to know
> your IP address?
>
>  - Matt
>
>
>



From dhill at wantree.com.au  Mon Sep 18 22:46:16 2000
From: dhill at wantree.com.au (Damion Hill)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:46:16 +0800
Subject: [plug] IPChains
In-Reply-To: <200009181422.WAA18038@zaphod.frogstar.dds>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000918220305.6668S-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <200009181446.WAA18341@zaphod.frogstar.dds>

Thanks to both Matt and Kai on this. They both opened my eyes.

I needlessly had the PPPADDR macro in my scripts (that's what 
happens when you follow examples from a book). I didn't need my 
ppp0 address for these rules to work. The rules apply to the ppp0 
interface and therefore son't need to be told the specific IP. Doh!! 
This has been bugging me for a couple of weeks!!

Live and learn.

On 18 Sep 00, at 22:22, Damion Hill wrote:
> 
> On 18 Sep 00, at 22:04, Matt Kemner wrote:
> 
> > What is in the script (and what does it do) and why does it need to
> > know your IP address?
> > 
> Matt,
> 
> This is an excert from my script
> 
> # Macro defs
> PPPADDR="203.59.179.249"
> UNPRIVPORTS="1024:65535"
> 
> # Retrieve mail (POP3) from any host
> ipchains -A input -j ACCEPT -i ppp0 -p tcp -s any/0 110 -d 
> $PPPADDR $UNPRIVPORT
> ipchains -A output -j ACCEPT -i ppp0 -p tcp -d any/0 110 -s 
> $PPPADDR $UNPRIVPORT
> 
> A reply from Kai (off list) showed me that he is using the interface
> (ppp0) rather than the IP address. I think this is where I'm going
> wrong.
> 
> Damion.
> --
> Damion Hill
> dhill at wantree.com.au
> 
> 


--
Damion Hill
dhill at wantree.com.au


From dynamix at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 19 00:49:37 2000
From: dynamix at iinet.net.au (dez)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:49:37 +0800
Subject: [plug] Athlon Tbird and duron
Message-ID: <634.000919@iinet.net.au>

Hi pluggers...
has anyone any nfo on the Athlon Thunderbird and/or the Duron
processors ( to be coupled with asus a7v mb) and Linux ???
I did hear a rumble that the original athlon was unstable under linux
....and does anyone know which chips ibm and compaq are selling on the
linux-ready machines???
thanx dez

  

-- 
 Regardz,
 dez                          mailto:dynamix at iinet.net.au




From clintcar at bigpond.com  Tue Sep 19 08:37:03 2000
From: clintcar at bigpond.com (Clint Carlson)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:37:03 +1000
Subject: [plug] Programming Languages
References: <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds>
Message-ID: <001001c021d1$bbf5bf20$8796868b@pbncomputer>

Hello All.

As a new linux user I have been inspired to re-try my hand at programming,
just for fun. The last experience I had was with pascal all so many years
ago (which i was a bit of a guru at I dont mind saying :P)

Now I am looking for a language/builder that is simple to use but has good
functionality. I was wondering if any of you could lead me in the right
direction....As I said I will be using this just for personal.small uses,
now for serious programming.....

Thanks
Clint



From kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au  Tue Sep 19 10:51:17 2000
From: kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au (Shackleton, Kevin)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:51:17 +0800
Subject: [plug] Programming Languages
Message-ID: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919F0E14B@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>

There's Kylix - real soon now.

K.

> ----------
> From: 	Clint Carlson[SMTP:clintcar at bigpond.com]
> Reply To: 	plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Sent: 	Tuesday, 19 September 2000 10:25
> To: 	plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Subject: 	[plug] Programming Languages
> 
> Hello All.
> 
> As a new linux user I have been inspired to re-try my hand at programming,
> just for fun. The last experience I had was with pascal all so many years
> ago (which i was a bit of a guru at I dont mind saying :P)
> 
> Now I am looking for a language/builder that is simple to use but has good
> functionality. I was wondering if any of you could lead me in the right
> direction....As I said I will be using this just for personal.small uses,
> now for serious programming.....
> 
> Thanks
> Clint
> 
> 


From christian at amnet.net.au  Tue Sep 19 10:42:28 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:42:28 +0800
Subject: [plug] Programming Languages
In-Reply-To: <001001c021d1$bbf5bf20$8796868b@pbncomputer>; from clintcar@bigpond.com on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:37:03AM +1000
References: <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds> <001001c021d1$bbf5bf20$8796868b@pbncomputer>
Message-ID: <20000919104228.I8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:37:03AM +1000, Clint Carlson wrote:
> As a new linux user I have been inspired to re-try my hand at programming,
> just for fun. The last experience I had was with pascal all so many years
> ago (which i was a bit of a guru at I dont mind saying :P)
> 
> Now I am looking for a language/builder that is simple to use but has good
> functionality. I was wondering if any of you could lead me in the right
> direction....As I said I will be using this just for personal.small uses,
> now for serious programming.....

<takes open can of worms from Clint>

My god, what a question.  Are you sure you don't want to know which
distribution is the best or even which editor? (Debian and vim, btw...)

Ok, well... there are probably a million and one opinions for this but
here's mine.  If you want to do serious programming (or at least pretend
to) then C is the way to go.  You can probably pick it up from your
Pascal background without too much difficulty but being a good C
programmer takes a bit of practice and you can expect to get the message
"Segmentation fault" quite often... ;-)

If you want a fun language that's easy to use and is very flexible (plus
has HEAPS of really easy to use libraries to do practically anything)
then Perl is the way to go.  It's probably a bit further away from
Pascal than C in terms of syntax but it's much more forgiving and if you
pick up a decent book (e.g., "Learning Perl") then you'll be up and
running in no time.  The disadvantages of Perl (IMHO) are that it's
slower than C (usually not a big issue) and it's syntax has a multitude
of forms ("There's more than one way to do it!") which can get quite
confusing at times, especially for a beginner.

If you like object oriented things, or just want to see what all the
fuss is about, then Python is probably the way to go.  It's apparently
very easy to learn, is very powerful and also lots of fun.
Syntactically it's also quite a bit simpler than Perl too.

<prepares to pass worm can onto next person>

Regards,

Christian.


From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 19 11:35:05 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:35:05 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Programming Languages
In-Reply-To: <20000919104228.I8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000919110215.6167A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Christian wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:37:03AM +1000, Clint Carlson wrote:
> > As a new linux user I have been inspired to re-try my hand at programming,
> > Now I am looking for a language/builder that is simple to use but has good
> > functionality.
> <takes open can of worms from Clint>
> My god, what a question.  Are you sure you don't want to know which
> distribution is the best or even which editor? (Debian and vim, btw...)
You're doing well so far. :)

> Ok, well... there are probably a million and one opinions for this but
> here's mine.  If you want to do serious programming (or at least pretend
> to) then C is the way to go.
I would tend to agree there, too. C is not so easy for beginners, but if
you are programming to get things done, rather than to learn the Art, then
C is pretty much where it's at. If you are interested in programming for
programming's sake, then perhaps you should learn Smalltalk or Python or
Haskell as well/instead.

> You can probably pick it up from your Pascal background without too much
> difficulty but being a good C programmer takes a bit of practice
And usually, but not always, exposure to other languages/paradigms. Some
of the most beautiful code I have seen has been written in C - it allows
an elegant simplicity with which the programmer can do anything he or she
sees fit without constraint, and if the programmer is good at what they
do, the results reflect that almost perfectly. Chances are though, that
they learnt those ways of thinking and abstracting from use of some
bondage+discipline language forcing them to think that way in the past.

> If you want a fun language that's easy to use and is very flexible (plus
> has HEAPS of really easy to use libraries to do practically anything)
> then Perl is the way to go.
OTOH, if you learn Perl too early you will probably never become a _good_
programmer. Ditto Visual Basic. I don't know if it's a good idea to use
Perl too extensively until such time as you are broadly enough experienced
to understand what is wrong with it. That said, it is probably the world's
most useful scripting language as long as you don't have the intention of
learning good coding practices with it.

> It's probably a bit further away from Pascal than C in terms of syntax
Definitely.

> but it's much more forgiving
You make that sound like a good thing? :)

> and if you pick up a decent book (e.g., "Learning Perl") then you'll be
> up and running in no time.
Yep. If you have a task to do, learn Perl in a hurry. Then if have any
pretentions to becoming a good programmer, forget it even faster. :)

> The disadvantages of Perl (IMHO) are <...> it's syntax has a multitude
> of forms ("There's more than one way to do it!") which can get quite
> confusing at times, especially for a beginner.
Only for a beginner? What are your rates for maintaining Perl code?

> If you like object oriented things, or just want to see what all the
> fuss is about, then Python is probably the way to go.
No, if you want to see what the fuss is about, try Java.
If you want to learn about OO, then Python is a good suggestion. :)

> Syntactically it's also quite a bit simpler than Perl too.
My mind is boggling trying to think of a language of which this is false. 

> <prepares to pass worm can onto next person>
<shaking the can> "It's ready, who wants it now?"

-Greg



From chris at mnet.com.au  Tue Sep 19 11:41:46 2000
From: chris at mnet.com.au (Christopher Darby)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:41:46 +0800
Subject: [plug] Programming Languages
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000919110215.6167A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <BAEGKAMANPNDGLLKPEAMKEIKCAAA.chris@mnet.com.au>

you mite try learning Java as a language for a beginner, it shares similar
structure and functionallity of see, as well as introducing you to Object
Oritented Programming, it shouldnt be too hard to learn C or C++ after
learning Java as they share alot of similarities.

Chris Darby

-----Original Message-----
From: The Thought Assassin [mailto:assassin at live.wasp.net.au]
Sent: Tuesday, 19 September 2000 11:35 AM
To: plug at plug.linux.org.au
Subject: Re: [plug] Programming Languages


On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Christian wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:37:03AM +1000, Clint Carlson wrote:
> > As a new linux user I have been inspired to re-try my hand at
programming,
> > Now I am looking for a language/builder that is simple to use but has
good
> > functionality.
> <takes open can of worms from Clint>
> My god, what a question.  Are you sure you don't want to know which
> distribution is the best or even which editor? (Debian and vim, btw...)
You're doing well so far. :)

> Ok, well... there are probably a million and one opinions for this but
> here's mine.  If you want to do serious programming (or at least pretend
> to) then C is the way to go.
I would tend to agree there, too. C is not so easy for beginners, but if
you are programming to get things done, rather than to learn the Art, then
C is pretty much where it's at. If you are interested in programming for
programming's sake, then perhaps you should learn Smalltalk or Python or
Haskell as well/instead.

> You can probably pick it up from your Pascal background without too much
> difficulty but being a good C programmer takes a bit of practice
And usually, but not always, exposure to other languages/paradigms. Some
of the most beautiful code I have seen has been written in C - it allows
an elegant simplicity with which the programmer can do anything he or she
sees fit without constraint, and if the programmer is good at what they
do, the results reflect that almost perfectly. Chances are though, that
they learnt those ways of thinking and abstracting from use of some
bondage+discipline language forcing them to think that way in the past.

> If you want a fun language that's easy to use and is very flexible (plus
> has HEAPS of really easy to use libraries to do practically anything)
> then Perl is the way to go.
OTOH, if you learn Perl too early you will probably never become a _good_
programmer. Ditto Visual Basic. I don't know if it's a good idea to use
Perl too extensively until such time as you are broadly enough experienced
to understand what is wrong with it. That said, it is probably the world's
most useful scripting language as long as you don't have the intention of
learning good coding practices with it.

> It's probably a bit further away from Pascal than C in terms of syntax
Definitely.

> but it's much more forgiving
You make that sound like a good thing? :)

> and if you pick up a decent book (e.g., "Learning Perl") then you'll be
> up and running in no time.
Yep. If you have a task to do, learn Perl in a hurry. Then if have any
pretentions to becoming a good programmer, forget it even faster. :)

> The disadvantages of Perl (IMHO) are <...> it's syntax has a multitude
> of forms ("There's more than one way to do it!") which can get quite
> confusing at times, especially for a beginner.
Only for a beginner? What are your rates for maintaining Perl code?

> If you like object oriented things, or just want to see what all the
> fuss is about, then Python is probably the way to go.
No, if you want to see what the fuss is about, try Java.
If you want to learn about OO, then Python is a good suggestion. :)

> Syntactically it's also quite a bit simpler than Perl too.
My mind is boggling trying to think of a language of which this is false.

> <prepares to pass worm can onto next person>
<shaking the can> "It's ready, who wants it now?"

-Greg



From christian at amnet.net.au  Tue Sep 19 11:55:24 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:55:24 +0800
Subject: [plug] Programming Languages
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000919110215.6167A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>; from assassin@live.wasp.net.au on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 11:35:05AM +0800
References: <20000919104228.I8341@eagle.amnet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000919110215.6167A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000919115524.J8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 11:35:05AM +0800, The Thought Assassin wrote:
> > distribution is the best or even which editor? (Debian and vim, btw...)
> You're doing well so far. :)

Yeah, I thought so too. :P

> > You can probably pick it up from your Pascal background without too much
> > difficulty but being a good C programmer takes a bit of practice
> And usually, but not always, exposure to other languages/paradigms. Some
> of the most beautiful code I have seen has been written in C - it allows
> an elegant simplicity with which the programmer can do anything he or she
> sees fit without constraint, and if the programmer is good at what they
> do, the results reflect that almost perfectly. Chances are though, that
> they learnt those ways of thinking and abstracting from use of some
> bondage+discipline language forcing them to think that way in the past.

I know what you mean but sometimes C makes you jump through hoops to do
things which *should* be straightforward.  This is one of the things I
like about Perl -- it allows me to do exactly what I want in a number of
simple and highly logical steps.

> OTOH, if you learn Perl too early you will probably never become a _good_
> programmer. Ditto Visual Basic. I don't know if it's a good idea to use
> Perl too extensively until such time as you are broadly enough experienced
> to understand what is wrong with it. That said, it is probably the world's
> most useful scripting language as long as you don't have the intention of
> learning good coding practices with it.

*nod*  Completely agree.

 
> > The disadvantages of Perl (IMHO) are <...> it's syntax has a multitude
> > of forms ("There's more than one way to do it!") which can get quite
> > confusing at times, especially for a beginner.
> Only for a beginner? What are your rates for maintaining Perl code?

Heh.  I can read my own Perl code with extreme ease.  While C code can
look extremely elegant, IMHO nothing compares to a well-written bit of
Perl.  Perl allows you to do exactly what you want using extremely nice
syntactic structures and the resulting code is quite beautiful.  The
major problem is that there are also a bunch of extremely ugly syntactic
structures for doing the exact same thing so, like you say, if you're a
good programmer and have experience with something like C then the Perl
code you write is also probably going to be quite good.  But if you like
writing messy code (which you can do under pretty much any language)
then Perl is a disaster waiting to happen.

 
> > Syntactically it's also quite a bit simpler than Perl too.
> My mind is boggling trying to think of a language of which this is false. 

True... there are plenty of languages which syntactically are much more
obscure but probably none that are quite as complex.

> > <prepares to pass worm can onto next person>
> <shaking the can> "It's ready, who wants it now?"

Ugg, pass it back the other way, I've had enough of it... :P


From skribe at amber.com.au  Tue Sep 19 12:15:50 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:15:50 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web Spam
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20000919120831.03a2da30@amber.com.au>

sphc-stage.xt3.com.au has the following link on their site:

http://amber/SPHCDev/images/sitemap/sm-hline.gif

This unfortunately defaults to my domain which of course means I'm getting 
barraged with  404 errors from my error catching script.  I've written to 
the webmaster but over the last 15 mins I've received over 30 hits.  I'm 
fairly sure the webmaster is just testing (although I've yet to receive any 
response) but it's driving me up the wall.  Is there anything I can do 
apart from turning off my error catching script?


skribe
         Purity:                           62.0%
         Corruption:                    38.0%
         Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
         Weirdness factor:           31%
         Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
         Medieval Career:            Black Knight



From colin at durbanet.co.za  Tue Sep 19 12:34:20 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:34:20 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web Spam
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20000919120831.03a2da30@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <39C6ECCC.C235E060@durbanet.co.za>

skribe wrote:
> sphc-stage.xt3.com.au has the following link on their site:
> 
> http://amber/SPHCDev/images/sitemap/sm-hline.gif
> 
> This unfortunately defaults to my domain which of course means I'm getting
> barraged with  404 errors from my error catching script.  I've written to
> the webmaster but over the last 15 mins I've received over 30 hits.  I'm
> fairly sure the webmaster is just testing (although I've yet to receive any
> response) but it's driving me up the wall.  Is there anything I can do
> apart from turning off my error catching script?

If you have the bandwidth: place a 50 MB, 10000x10000 pixel image file
at that address.

Colin


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 19 12:43:27 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:43:27 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Web Spam
In-Reply-To: <39C6ECCC.C235E060@durbanet.co.za>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000919124238.6668W-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Colin Muller wrote:

> If you have the bandwidth: place a 50 MB, 10000x10000 pixel image file
> at that address.

Put up an ad banner at that location?

You might as well make some money from the additional hits.. :)

 - Matt



From skribe at amber.com.au  Tue Sep 19 12:44:20 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:44:20 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web Spam
In-Reply-To: <39C6ECCC.C235E060@durbanet.co.za>
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20000919120831.03a2da30@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20000919123920.03a79970@amber.com.au>

At 12:34 19/09/00, Colin Muller wrote:
>If you have the bandwidth: place a 50 MB, 10000x10000 pixel image file
>at that address.

LOL!  Tempting.

They just got back to me and I'm flabbergasted.  They don't understand what 
the problem is.  They have a machine named amber that's why they're using 
http://amber/.  I just explained to them to use the FQDN for the 
machine.  I'm just waiting for them to ask me what FQDN is now =).

Would anyone like to take a guess what OS they run? ;)


skribe



From satyr at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 19 14:12:01 2000
From: satyr at iinet.net.au (Matt)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:12:01 +0800
Subject: [plug]RAM
Message-ID: <39C703B1.2C782921@iinet.net.au>

Hey All,

I have another problem.

I am currently running Linux Mandrake 7.1 with Kernel 2.2.16

The problem I am having is Linux thinks it only has 64 meg of RAM, but I
actually have 128 (2X64 SDRAM).

The BIOS detects the 128 meg but when linux come to the login prompt it
says it only has 64.

I have taken a look at the chips and made sure they are insurted
properly, and they are, I have recompiled the Kernel acouple of times
but it says the same thing. and i have enven tried the 2.2.15 Kernel.

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Matt




From ojw at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 19 14:13:59 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 06:13:59 +0000
Subject: [plug] Programming Languages
References: <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds> <001001c021d1$bbf5bf20$8796868b@pbncomputer>
Message-ID: <39C70427.B3086B23@iinet.net.au>

Clint Carlson wrote:

> Now I am looking for a language/builder that is simple to use but has good
> functionality. I was wondering if any of you could lead me in the right
> direction....As I said I will be using this just for personal.small uses,
> now for serious programming.....

They'll all say Perl, I say Python. :-)

http://www.python.org

--
Oliver White



From kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au  Tue Sep 19 14:21:21 2000
From: kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au (Beau Kuiper)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:21:21 +0800
Subject: [plug]RAM
In-Reply-To: <39C703B1.2C782921@iinet.net.au>
References: <39C703B1.2C782921@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00091914220800.00154@darkstar>

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Matt wrote:
> Hey All,
> 
> I have another problem.
> 
> I am currently running Linux Mandrake 7.1 with Kernel 2.2.16
> 
> The problem I am having is Linux thinks it only has 64 meg of RAM, but I
> actually have 128 (2X64 SDRAM).
> 
> The BIOS detects the 128 meg but when linux come to the login prompt it
> says it only has 64.

try the boot option ram=128M

Then linux should be happy
Beau Kuiper
kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au

> 
> I have taken a look at the chips and made sure they are insurted
> properly, and they are, I have recompiled the Kernel acouple of times
> but it says the same thing. and i have enven tried the 2.2.15 Kernel.
> 
> Any help will be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Matt


From ojw at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 19 14:28:46 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 06:28:46 +0000
Subject: [plug] Programming Languages
References: <20000919104228.I8341@eagle.amnet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000919110215.6167A-100000@live.wasp.net.au> <20000919115524.J8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39C7079E.B562C7F3@iinet.net.au>

<snip yadda yadda yadda>

I notice no one has brought up C++ yet. ;-)

--
Oliver White



From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Tue Sep 19 14:49:37 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:49:37 +0800
Subject: [plug]RAM
References: <39C703B1.2C782921@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <005501c02205$c7539b60$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

Hi Matt !

This is something I have seen also, all you gotta do to cure this is edit a
line in your lilo.conf.
For 128Mb of RAM, you do it like this:

        append="linux mem=128M"

And remember to run /sbin/lilo after you've edited that for the changes to
take effect in the LILO boot sector.

I hope that helps !

Kai

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt" <satyr at iinet.net.au>
To: "PLUG" <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 2:12 PM
Subject: [plug]RAM


> Hey All,
>
> I have another problem.
>
> I am currently running Linux Mandrake 7.1 with Kernel 2.2.16
>
> The problem I am having is Linux thinks it only has 64 meg of RAM, but I
> actually have 128 (2X64 SDRAM).
>
> The BIOS detects the 128 meg but when linux come to the login prompt it
> says it only has 64.
>
> I have taken a look at the chips and made sure they are insurted
> properly, and they are, I have recompiled the Kernel acouple of times
> but it says the same thing. and i have enven tried the 2.2.15 Kernel.
>
> Any help will be appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>



From leon at lostrealm.com  Tue Sep 19 14:34:05 2000
From: leon at lostrealm.com (Leon Blackwell)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:34:05 +0800
Subject: [plug] Programming Languages
In-Reply-To: <39C7079E.B562C7F3@iinet.net.au>; from ojw@iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 06:28:46AM +0000
References: <20000919104228.I8341@eagle.amnet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000919110215.6167A-100000@live.wasp.net.au> <20000919115524.J8341@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39C7079E.B562C7F3@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000919143404.A24107@lostrealm.com>

I'm going to pre-empt the upcoming religious war and say let's
stop before someone gets an eye poked out.

We all know there's no language better than FORTRAN 4...


...except maybe COBOL.




(ever noticed how they're both capitalised?  :)



-- 
 +----------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Leon Blackwell                       mailto:leon at lostrealm.com |
 | http://www.lostrealm.com/                         ICQ - 424725 |
 +----------------------------------------------------------------+


From ojw at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 19 14:35:59 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 06:35:59 +0000
Subject: [plug]RAM
References: <39C703B1.2C782921@iinet.net.au> <00091914220800.00154@darkstar>
Message-ID: <39C7094F.9930593D@iinet.net.au>

Beau Kuiper wrote:

> > The BIOS detects the 128 meg but when linux come to the login prompt it
> > says it only has 64.
>
> try the boot option ram=128M

funny... I don't have that option set, and my system detects all 128MB.

--
Oli White



From christian at amnet.net.au  Tue Sep 19 14:38:29 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:38:29 +0800
Subject: [plug]RAM
In-Reply-To: <39C7094F.9930593D@iinet.net.au>; from ojw@iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 06:35:59AM +0000
References: <39C703B1.2C782921@iinet.net.au> <00091914220800.00154@darkstar> <39C7094F.9930593D@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000919143829.L8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 06:35:59AM +0000, Oliver White wrote:
> Beau Kuiper wrote:
> 
> > > The BIOS detects the 128 meg but when linux come to the login prompt it
> > > says it only has 64.
> >
> > try the boot option ram=128M
> 
> funny... I don't have that option set, and my system detects all 128MB.

Yeah, me either (on several different systems).  It used to be a problem
with 2.0.x kernels that they couldn't detect more than 64MB of RAM but I
thought it was fixed... my guess would be that this person has a broken
BIOS of some sort.


From robd at anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au  Tue Sep 19 22:08:40 2000
From: robd at anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au (Rob Dunne)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:08:40 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Programming Languages
In-Reply-To: <39C70427.B3086B23@iinet.net.au>
References: <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds>
	<001001c021d1$bbf5bf20$8796868b@pbncomputer>
	<39C70427.B3086B23@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <14791.29544.83741.860338@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au>

I think that you should have a look at fortran

for general info on fortran on linux
    http://studbolt.physast.uga.edu/templon/fortran.html

for comments on g77 -- an very nice fortran compiler
       http://studbolt.physast.uga.edu/templon/g77-comments.html

a fortan90 subset compiler (no f77 backwards compatability)
      http://www.imagine1.com/

see also  Clive G. Page, "Professional Programmer's Guide 
             to Fortran 77"
at ftp.star.le.ac.uk in  /pub/fortran/prof77.ps.gz


Oliver White writes:
 > Clint Carlson wrote:
 > 
 > > Now I am looking for a language/builder that is simple to use but has good
 > > functionality. I was wondering if any of you could lead me in the right
 > > direction....As I said I will be using this just for personal.small uses,
 > > now for serious programming.....
 > 
 > They'll all say Perl, I say Python. :-)
 > 
 > http://www.python.org
 > 
 > --
 > Oliver White
 > 
 > 
 > 

-- 
 Rob Dunne         Fax: +61 8 9333 6121     Tel: +61 8 9333 6178
 CSIRO Mathematical and Information Sciences
 Leeuwin Centre for Earth Sensing Technologies 
 Private Bag 5, P.O., Wembley, Western Australia, 6013         
 http://matilda.vu.edu.au/~dunne  Email: Robert.Dunne at cmis.csiro.au

        Java has certainly revolutionized marketing and litigation.



From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 19 14:46:43 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:46:43 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Programming Languages
In-Reply-To: <001001c021d1$bbf5bf20$8796868b@pbncomputer>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000919144500.6167B-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Clint Carlson wrote:
> Now I am looking for a language/builder that is simple to use but has good
> functionality.
This will be easier if you tell us what kind of projects you had in mind.
What do you wish to create, and what do you wish to learn?

-Greg Mildenhall



From kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au  Tue Sep 19 14:42:05 2000
From: kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au (Beau Kuiper)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:42:05 +0800
Subject: [plug]RAM
In-Reply-To: <39C7094F.9930593D@iinet.net.au>
References: <39C703B1.2C782921@iinet.net.au> <00091914220800.00154@darkstar> <39C7094F.9930593D@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00091914462701.00154@darkstar>

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Oliver White wrote:
> Beau Kuiper wrote:
> 
> > > The BIOS detects the 128 meg but when linux come to the login prompt it
> > > says it only has 64.
> >
> > try the boot option ram=128M
> 
> funny... I don't have that option set, and my system detects all 128MB.

It really has a lot to do with the BIOS more than anything else. Boards with
buggy BIOS'es may not report the correct amount of memory for linux. I also
think older BIOS'es are not able to report > 64meg ram. There also may be
other issues at work here too. 

This happens mostly on older computers (pentiums and older) although I wouldn't
be suprised if even a few newer computers screw it up.

I have 96 meg ram, and it is dectected fine on my computer too :-)

Beau Kuiper
kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au


From kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au  Tue Sep 19 14:46:52 2000
From: kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au (Beau Kuiper)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:46:52 +0800
Subject: [plug]RAM
In-Reply-To: <20000919143829.L8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>
References: <39C703B1.2C782921@iinet.net.au> <39C7094F.9930593D@iinet.net.au> <20000919143829.L8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00091914481002.00154@darkstar>

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Christian wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 06:35:59AM +0000, Oliver White wrote:
> > Beau Kuiper wrote:
> > 
> > > > The BIOS detects the 128 meg but when linux come to the login prompt it
> > > > says it only has 64.
> > >
> > > try the boot option ram=128M
> > 
> > funny... I don't have that option set, and my system detects all 128MB.
> 
> Yeah, me either (on several different systems).  It used to be a problem
> with 2.0.x kernels that they couldn't detect more than 64MB of RAM but I
> thought it was fixed... my guess would be that this person has a broken
> BIOS of some sort.

Probably, 2.2.x uses a new BIOS api to read memory size. If the api is not
defined by a particular BIOS, or it is buggy, memory cannot be dectected
correctly.

Beau Kuiper
kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Tue Sep 19 14:58:44 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:58:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web Spam
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20000919120831.03a2da30@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <39C70EA4.5030401@brooks.smileys.net>

skribe wrote:
> sphc-stage.xt3.com.au has the following link on their site
> http://amber/SPHCDev/images/sitemap/sm-hline.gif
> This unfortunately defaults to my domain which of course means I'm 
> getting barraged with  404 errors from my error catching script. 
They want an image? Give 'em an image. A nice big bright red one with 
yellow letters flashing to black, saying THIS URL IS BROKEN - MY 
WEBMASTER IS A TWONK. Guarantee a fast response! (-:




From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Tue Sep 19 15:10:24 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:10:24 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web Spam
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20000919120831.03a2da30@amber.com.au> <39C70EA4.5030401@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <008101c02208$af3458a0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

hahahahahaaaa

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Leon Brooks" <leon at brooks.smileys.net>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [plug] Web Spam


> skribe wrote:
> > sphc-stage.xt3.com.au has the following link on their site
> > http://amber/SPHCDev/images/sitemap/sm-hline.gif
> > This unfortunately defaults to my domain which of course means I'm 
> > getting barraged with  404 errors from my error catching script. 
> They want an image? Give 'em an image. A nice big bright red one with 
> yellow letters flashing to black, saying THIS URL IS BROKEN - MY 
> WEBMASTER IS A TWONK. Guarantee a fast response! (-:
> 
> 
> 
> 



From satyr at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 19 15:03:50 2000
From: satyr at iinet.net.au (Matt)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:03:50 +0800
Subject: [plug]RAM
References: <39C703B1.2C782921@iinet.net.au> <00091914220800.00154@darkstar> <39C7094F.9930593D@iinet.net.au> <20000919143829.L8341@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39C70FD6.8A2E286D@iinet.net.au>

Christian wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 06:35:59AM +0000, Oliver White wrote:
> > Beau Kuiper wrote:
> >
> > > > The BIOS detects the 128 meg but when linux come to the login prompt it
> > > > says it only has 64.
> > >
> > > try the boot option ram=128M
> >
> > funny... I don't have that option set, and my system detects all 128MB.
>
> Yeah, me either (on several different systems).  It used to be a problem
> with 2.0.x kernels that they couldn't detect more than 64MB of RAM but I
> thought it was fixed... my guess would be that this person has a broken
> BIOS of some sort.

I dont think it is the bios.

I had redhat 6.2 installed for awhile and it was fine with the 128

Thanks

Matt



From batesy at rave.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 19 15:27:01 2000
From: batesy at rave.iinet.net.au (Jonathon Bates)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:27:01 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Programming Languages
In-Reply-To: <39C7079E.B562C7F3@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009191525480.15670-100000@rave.iinet.net.au>

> I notice no one has brought up C++ yet. ;-)

Thats because it is an evil evil language! :)
Give me C any day! Or even for OO stuff Java.

:)
Cheers
Batesy
-
Only my 2cents



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 19 16:43:52 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:43:52 +0800
Subject: [plug] Programming Languages
References: <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds>
		<001001c021d1$bbf5bf20$8796868b@pbncomputer>
		<39C70427.B3086B23@iinet.net.au> <14791.29544.83741.860338@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au>
Message-ID: <39C72747.910681A9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Rob Dunne wrote:
> 
> I think that you should have a look at fortran
> 
> for general info on fortran on linux
>     http://studbolt.physast.uga.edu/templon/fortran.html
> 
> for comments on g77 -- an very nice fortran compiler
>        http://studbolt.physast.uga.edu/templon/g77-comments.html
> 
> a fortan90 subset compiler (no f77 backwards compatability)
>       http://www.imagine1.com/
> 
> see also  Clive G. Page, "Professional Programmer's Guide
>              to Fortran 77"
> at ftp.star.le.ac.uk in  /pub/fortran/prof77.ps.gz
> 

Wot about FORTRAN-90?

Is there not a full, free, ANSI FORTRAN-90 compiler available for Linux?

The "general info" page, refers to a F90 to F77 preprocessor, but, given
that F77 did not have the stacks, pointers, and recursion, etc, that F90
has, how are they implemented? How can a language that does not provide
for dynamic data types, such as pointer-based linked lists, etc,
implement the dynamic data structures?

As far as I am aware, Linux (well, at least UNIX, and, also, I believe,
the various versions of "DOS", relating to CISC chip based systems), is
written in "C", so, logically, a F90 to "C" preprocessor would appear
more appropriate.

Whilst FORTRAN has its great advantages, "C" appears to be the way to
go; it has a compiler for every relatively common operating system, and
most can implement the ANSI "C" standard; but, the poster of the
originating message, should avoid using extensions, or, variations, to
non-standard languages, whichever language he uses. From memory, gcc has
a switch (most "C" compilers do) - to force compliance with the ANSI "C"
standard.

I suggest "C". Then, you can have fun, confusing anyone else, and,
yourself, after a couple of days, as to what the code actually does
(unless you properly document it, and, that takes time), and so you can
have fun-filled evenings, weekends, and, other leisure time, trying to
decipher what the code is actually meant to be doing (especially, when
you are trying to debug it).

FORTRAN 90 does have wonderful features, like programmer defined levels
of precision (uh, lets see; I want this to be precise to 1024 digits,
so, after the calculations are completed, the answer should be precise
to two digits); but, then, in "C", you can create the data types, and,
write your own maths libaries (and other relevant libraries, like a
logical library (to include the boolean values, TRUE, FALSE, and MAYBE,
MAYBENOT, and UNSURE)), to ensure that you have a fun-filled programming
future. And, you can have lots of levels of nested brackets, and,
pointers (to pointers (to pointers (to....))), as arguments to
functions, which are being passed as arguments to functions, that are
being passed... , or, you can pass the pointers to the fuctions as the
arguments, instead of the functions, and, so, on it goes...

Whatever is said, unless my understanding is wrong (Put out those
flamethrowers!), "C" is the most powerful programming language, and, all
kinds of things, from operating systems, to whatever application that
can be imagined, are either written in, or, can be written in, "C". The
only other programming language that is needed, and, it is the full-on,
wash-yourself-all-over-with-turps-afterwards-and-don't-come-into-the-house-until-you-have, 
dirty languge, but is necessary, for the lowest level interface, is
assembler. Now, there, you could have fun...

One feature of "C", that has not been mentioned, and, that does not tend
to get taught, nowadays, where the tendency is to write a program to
crash on error, rather than to handle errors, is the use of zero and one
as logical values, so using the value returned by an integer function
(and, therefore, declaring as many functions as type integer, as
possible, and, never using the void function declaration), so that, if a
function does not work, a programmer can properly implement error
handling.

One thing, that no-one appears to have yet mentioned; if you were
comfortable programming in Pascal, then, "C" is the natural and logical
progression; like Pascal programming, except that you can get your hands
dirty, if you want.

By the way, the use of the quotes, in the "C", is as it was in the
beginning, when Kernighan and Ritchie defined "C", and, wrote the book,
that is the sacred writing, from which it all began...

By the way, Rob; do you know that you had set your Reply To address? Was
it intentional?

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From sbaker at icg.net.au  Tue Sep 19 17:08:22 2000
From: sbaker at icg.net.au (Steve Baker)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:08:22 +0800
Subject: [plug] Programming Languages
References: <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds>	<001001c021d1$bbf5bf20$8796868b@pbncomputer>	<39C70427.B3086B23@iinet.net.au> <14791.29544.83741.860338@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au> <39C72747.910681A9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <01fe01c02219$6b5911a0$65140a0a@sg.mercatela.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bret Busby" <bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au>
To: "plug" <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Tuesday, 19 September 2000 16:43
Subject: Re: [plug] Programming Languages


>
> The "general info" page, refers to a F90 to F77 preprocessor, but, given
> that F77 did not have the stacks, pointers, and recursion, etc, that F90
> has, how are they implemented? How can a language that does not provide
> for dynamic data types, such as pointer-based linked lists, etc,
> implement the dynamic data structures?
>

They are implemented by using the One True Structured Data Type - The Array.

Check out the "Real Programmers Don't Eat Quiche' article.  Old, but still
funny.

http://www-smi.stanford.edu/people/felciano/humor/realprogrammers.html

"Strings, lists, structures, sets -- these are all special cases of arrays
and can be treated as such without messing up your programming language with
all sorts of complications."


Regards,
Steve
--
Steve Baker
Principal Associate

mercatela
Tel: +65 324 9727
Fax: +65 324 5116

www.mercatela.com




From robd at anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au  Wed Sep 20 00:38:31 2000
From: robd at anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au (Rob Dunne)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:38:31 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Programming Languages
In-Reply-To: <39C72747.910681A9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
References: <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds>
	<001001c021d1$bbf5bf20$8796868b@pbncomputer>
	<39C70427.B3086B23@iinet.net.au>
	<14791.29544.83741.860338@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au>
	<39C72747.910681A9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <14791.38535.37039.26125@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au>

hi,
    
Pacific-Sierra Research offer 
a "Personal Linux f90 Version"  ( http://www.psrv.com/lnxf90.html )
ie private use only  also there are several commercial f90 
compilers available for linux
on  x86 machine but only one (I think) for alpha machines.
But if you dont need backward compatability with f77 then 
the "F" compiler from  http://www.imagine1.com/ is ofen recommended
(I havnt used it). 

I really I think we need to know what sort of programming 
is being considered -- but if it uses arrays then it is a good 
idea to consder fortran. 
                     bye


Bret Busby writes:
 > 
 > Wot about FORTRAN-90?
 > 
 > Is there not a full, free, ANSI FORTRAN-90 compiler available for Linux?
 > 


 > By the way, Rob; do you know that you had set your Reply To address? Was
 > it intentional?
 > 
No, not intentional. But then I cound not follow all the 
debate about  "Reply To" that went on in this list a while ago. 







From tony at cantech.net.au  Tue Sep 19 17:42:40 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:42:40 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] [OT] [LONG] Installfest update/questions
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009191655020.22794-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

Hello All.
    As the installfest gets closer, I realize that there are things that need to
be done.

    I have a couple of things that we need to look at.

1) Flyers:
    Now that the flyers actually exists:
    (http://installfest.plug.linux.org.au/Flyer.pdf)
    I need people to hit the Uni's
    I'll cover Curtin, Thanks to Leon Blackwell the CompSci web page has a
    link on it.  So If people can do UWA, ECU etc etc that'd be good.   If 
    anyone has time and can think of other places the flyer maybe good for 
    then please hit them.  I figure if most people pin up 2 flyers we'll be 
    very visible. 

2) Handout Sheets:
    It was mentioned earlier BUT then I didn't follow it up.  I think it
    would be good to have 2 handout sheets.  One that is distro non-specific 
    (commands that work everywhere) and the other taylored to a given distro.
    I guess that if we cover rpm and debian based systems we should cover
    most of them.  So we need to come up with a start.
    Matt suggested that we look at:
       http://enterprise.powerup.com.au/%7Esquadron/
    and use that as a base.  So what do people feel we need to give to
    installees.???

3) IPchains.
    With all these new machines hitting the 'Net I think it would be good if
    we came up with a "standard" set of ipchains rules that will slowdown 
    crackers I was thinking we could hack an existing script (I'm sure we ALL 
    have one in place) so that it could be used to protect a stand-alone 
    system and/or protect and net and MASQ.  If we then stick that script 
    in /usr/local/bin and add it to rc.local then all installers will be on 
    the same page.   Something like:
    +---
    |#!/bin/sh
    |
    |function ipForward() {
    |    file="/proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward"
    |    if [ ! -f $file ] ; then
    |        echo "Hmmm this may be bad"
    |        break
    |    fi
    |
    |    case "$1" of
    |        on)  echo 1 > $file;;
    |        off) echo 0 > $file;;
    |    esac
    |}
    |
    |EXTDEV=ppp0
    |IPCHAINS=/sbin/ipchains
    |#Flush destroy make sure we know where we are etc etc
    |#reverse route lookups???
    |
    |case "$1" of
    |    standalone)
    |        ipForward(off)
    |        $IPCHAINS -P input DENY
    |        $IPCHAINS -a input -j ACCEPT -i lo
    |        ;;
    |    network)
    |        ipForward(on)
    |        $IPCHAINS -P input DENY
    |        $IPCHAINS -a input -j ACCEPT -i lo
    |        $IPCHAINS -a input -j MASQ -i $EXTDEV
    |        #protocol modules ??? modprobe ip_masq_ftp ????
    |        ;;
    |esac
    +---

    Then we'd call it like /usr/local/bin/ipchains {network,standalone}.  You get
    the idea.  I know this should be called way early in the piece BUT I
    think calling at all is a good start.   Now that may be a acomplete waste
    on time for some distros that do all of this for us .... it was just something 
    I thought of.


Also, if people want to have alook at the venue before the day let me know
.... we can look at to tomorrow arvo if y'all like ???

Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Tue Sep 19 21:04:34 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:04:34 +0800
Subject: [plug] Programming Languages
References: <20000919104228.I8341@eagle.amnet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000919110215.6167A-100000@live.wasp.net.au> <20000919115524.J8341@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39C7079E.B562C7F3@iinet.net.au> <20000919143404.A24107@lostrealm.com>
Message-ID: <39C76462.716DDF76@brooks.smileys.net>

Leon Blackwell wrote:
> We all know there's no language better than FORTRAN 4...

> ...except maybe COBOL.

> (ever noticed how they're both capitalised?  :)

They're supposed to be ForTran IV and CoBOL, respectively. Luddite. (-:

-- 
How penguins survive: many are cold, but few are frozen.


From dagobah at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 19 21:25:05 2000
From: dagobah at mad.scientist.com (Bernard Blackham)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:25:05 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] IPChains and Installfest std ipchains script
In-Reply-To: <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009192107050.9397-100000@dagobah.home>


On the topic of the IPChains firewall for the linuxfest and in reply to
Damion, I've here my firewall script that is believed to be semi-strong
against spoofing and sorts. It also executes the commands for masquerading
of IRC, FTP, ICQ (v1.blah, 98, 99, not 2000a onwards), and several other
odd protocols. Im sure that I took it from the HOWTO or somewhere on the
net so it's probably fairly widely used anyway. It automatically detects
the IP address of a dialup connection when it's run. Just drop it on the
end of ifup.local (??? from memory) and voila... all *should* be fine...
(theoretically only, of course).

It still has some things that need fixing up... UDP security doesn't
appear to be too flash with it. It was modified by me for a couple of
things, one being DHCP which required broadcasting to 255.255.255.255 from
0.0.0.0 to receive and serve requests, and it appears to work, but whether
its done how it's supposed to be done, ill leave that to the experts to 
answer... ;P

--- CUT HERE rc.firewall ---

#!/bin/bash

#
# /etc/rc.d/rc.firewall: An example of a Semi-Strong IPCHAINS firewall ruleset.
#

echo "Enabling IP MASQ, MASQ timeouts, and firewalling"

# Load all required IP MASQ modules
#
#   NOTE:  Only load the IP MASQ modules you need.  All current IP MASQ modules
#          are shown below but are commented from loading.

# Needed to initially load modules
#
/sbin/depmod -a

# Supports the proper masquerading of FTP file transfers using the PORT method
#
/sbin/modprobe ip_masq_ftp

# Supports the masquerading of RealAudio over UDP.  Without this module,
#       RealAudio WILL function but in TCP mode.  This can cause a reduction
#       in sound quality
#
/sbin/modprobe ip_masq_raudio

# Supports the masquerading of IRC DCC file transfers
#
/sbin/modprobe ip_masq_irc

# Support masquerading of ICQ versions 99b and previous
# not needed with the advent of ICQ 2000a or the socks proxy
/sbin/modprobe ip_masq_icq log=-a +i +o +m

# Supports the masquerading of Quake and QuakeWorld by default.  This modules is
#   for for multiple users behind the Linux MASQ server.  If you are going to play
#   Quake I, II, and III, use the second example.
#
#Quake I / QuakeWorld (ports 26000 and 27000)
#/sbin/modprobe ip_masq_quake
#
#Quake I/II/III / QuakeWorld (ports 26000, 27000, 27910, 27960)
#/sbin/modprobe ip_masq_quake ports=26000,27000,27910,27960


# Supports the masquerading of the CuSeeme video conferencing software
#
#/sbin/modprobe ip_masq_cuseeme

#Supports the masquerading of the VDO-live video conferencing software
#
#/sbin/modprobe ip_masq_vdolive


#CRITICAL:  Enable IP forwarding since it is disabled by default since
#
#           Redhat Users:  you may try changing the options in /etc/sysconfig/network from:
#
#                       FORWARD_IPV4=false
#                             to
#                       FORWARD_IPV4=true
#
echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward


# Get the dynamic IP address assigned via DHCP
#
# < DAMION... THIS IS WHERE AND HOW IT DETECTS ITS PPP ADDRESS >
#
extip="`/sbin/ifconfig ppp0 | grep 'inet addr' | awk '{print $2}' | sed -e 's/.*://'`"
extint="ppp0"

# Assign the internal IP
intint="eth0"
intnet="192.168.0.0/24"


# MASQ timeouts
#
#   2 hrs timeout for TCP session timeouts
#  10 sec timeout for traffic after the TCP/IP "FIN" packet is received
#  60 sec timeout for UDP traffic (MASQ'ed ICQ users must enable a 30sec firewall timeout in ICQ itself)
#
ipchains -M -S 7200 10 60

#############################################################################
# Incoming, flush and set default policy of reject. Actually the default policy
# is irrelevant because there is a catch all rule with deny and log.
#
ipchains -F input
ipchains -P input REJECT

# local interface, local machines, going anywhere is valid
#
ipchains -A input -i $intint -s $intnet -d 0.0.0.0/0 -j ACCEPT

# The following allows DHCP to work, where clients have source ip 0.0.0.0
# and broadcast to network... Added by moi (can anyone see if this
# is right/wrong/secure? makes it work for me)
ipchains -A input -i $intint -s 0.0.0.0 -d 255.255.255.255/32 -j ACCEPT

#
# Allow the services on the privileged ports you want (1-1024)
#
# ssh:
ipchains -A input -p tcp -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d $extip/32 22 -j ACCEPT

# http:
# ipchains -A input -p tcp -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d $extip/32 80 -j ACCEPT

# identd:
# ipchains -A input -p tcp -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d $extip/32 113 -j ACCEPT

#
# simply block all other privileged ports not specified above between 1 - 1024 for udp and tcp
#
ipchains -A input -p tcp -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d $extip/32 1:1024 -j REJECT
ipchains -A input -p udp -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d $extip/32 1:1024 -j REJECT

# block external access to SOCKS proxy (runs on an unprivileged port)
ipchains -A input -p tcp -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d $extip/32 1080 -j REJECT

# and squid proxy. uses tcp port 3128 and udp port 3130 for icp reqs.
ipchains -A input -p tcp -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d $extip/32 3128 -j REJECT
ipchains -A input -p udp -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d $extip/32 3130 -j REJECT

# also block port 2049 - used for nfs??? always appears to be open
ipchains -A input -p udp -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d $extip/32 2049 -j REJECT


# remote interface, claiming to be local machines, IP spoofing, get lost
#
ipchains -A input -i $extint -s $intnet -d 0.0.0.0/0 -l -j REJECT

# remote interface, any source, going to permanent PPP address is valid
#
ipchains -A input -i $extint -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d $extip/32 -j ACCEPT

# loopback interface is valid.
#
ipchains -A input -i lo -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d 0.0.0.0/0 -j ACCEPT

# catch all rule, all other incoming is denied and logged. pity there is no
# log option on the policy but this does the job instead.
#
ipchains -A input -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d 0.0.0.0/0 -l -j REJECT

#############################################################################
# Outgoing, flush and set default policy of reject. Actually the default policy
# is irrelevant because there is a catch all rule with deny and log.
#
ipchains -F output
ipchains -P output REJECT

# local interface, any source going to local net is valid
#
ipchains -A output -i $intint -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d $intnet -j ACCEPT

# local interface, for dhcp sends to 255.255.255.255 is valid
# also added by moi for dhcp to work... does this breach security? 
ipchains -A output -i $intint -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d 255.255.255.255/32 -j ACCEPT

# outgoing to local net on remote interface, stuffed routing, deny
#
ipchains -A output -i $extint -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d $intnet -l -j REJECT

# outgoing from local net on remote interface, stuffed masquerading, deny
#
ipchains -A output -i $extint -s $intnet -d 0.0.0.0/0 -l -j REJECT

# anything else outgoing on remote interface is valid
#
ipchains -A output -i $extint -s $extip/32 -d 0.0.0.0/0 -j ACCEPT

# loopback interface is valid.
#
ipchains -A output -i lo -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d 0.0.0.0/0 -j ACCEPT

# catch all rule, all other outgoing is denied and logged. pity there is no
# log option on the policy but this does the job instead.
#
ipchains -A output -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d 0.0.0.0/0 -l -j REJECT

#############################################################################
# Forwarding, flush and set default policy of deny. Actually the default policy
# is irrelevant because there is a catch all rule with deny and log.
#
ipchains -F forward
ipchains -P forward DENY

# Masquerade from local net on local interface to anywhere.
#
ipchains -A forward -i $extint -s $intnet -d 0.0.0.0/0 -j MASQ
#
# catch all rule, all other forwarding is denied and logged. pity there is no
# log option on the policy but this does the job instead.
#
ipchains -A forward -s 0.0.0.0/0 -d 0.0.0.0/0 -l -j REJECT


--- END CUT HERE ---

Bernard.

--
 Bernard Blackham
 dagobah at mad.scientist.com

On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Damion Hill wrote:

> I'm hoping to get a pointer here.
> 
> I've set up a script to apply the IPChains I wish to use for my home 
> network and have them working. The one thing that needs attention 
> is the setting for the IP address. All of the details I've found in doco 
> refer to static IP or DHCP. I dial to iiNet who assign an ip 
> depending on which port you've dialed in to.
> 
> How can I automate the IP setting in my script? At present I'm 
> using ifconfig to get the address and editing a macro in the script 
> before applying the rules. There has to be an easier way!!
> 
> Cheers,
> Damion.
> --
> Damion Hill
> dhill at wantree.com.au
> 
> 



From ojw at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 19 13:39:41 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:39:41 +0800
Subject: [plug] Samba query
Message-ID: <39C6FC1D.B441AAD0@iinet.net.au>

Hi folks.

A friend of mine had a query about samba, which I said I'd ask for him.

<IRC>
    <|kimba|> basically .. need to know how it intergrates between NT
and Unix .. and if it provides the security model between the too .. or
if the security still falls back to the unix ?
</IRC>

I hope this makes sense, I know bugger all about samba, so I don't know
if the question is meaningful or not.

Thanks.

--
Oliver White



From Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au  Tue Sep 19 21:44:15 2000
From: Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:44:15 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Athlon Tbird and duron
In-Reply-To: <634.000919@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009192128020.13248@terminus.net.au>

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, dez wrote:

> has anyone any nfo on the Athlon Thunderbird and/or the Duron
> processors ( to be coupled with asus a7v mb) and Linux ???
> I did hear a rumble that the original athlon was unstable under linux
> ....and does anyone know which chips ibm and compaq are selling on the
> linux-ready machines???

I'm using Linux on an Athlon Thunderbird 700 and a 750 (I think the 750 is
a non-Thunderbird slot-A Athlon though).  They work fine, one Debian the
other Red Hat.  There was a gotcha with Red Hat - the standard kernel for
6.2 has processor serial number disabled which causes a kernel panic on
boot with the Athlon.  Just recompile your kernel (you can boot the rescue
kernel from the CD to do that).

-- 
Independent consulting solicitor* | _ .__ ._ _    |\/| _.| _ _ |._ _
and technology consultant.**    \_|(/_|(/_| | |\/ |  |(_||(_(_)|| | |
Personal site: http://malcolm.wattle.id.au     /   Finger for GPG key
* http://www.ilaw.com.au ** http://www.terminus.net.au jm at ilaw.com.au



From dagobah at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 19 21:51:59 2000
From: dagobah at mad.scientist.com (Bernard Blackham)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:51:59 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Samba query
In-Reply-To: <39C6FC1D.B441AAD0@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009192145140.9397-100000@dagobah.home>

Simple answer is yes...

Check out http://au1.samba.org/samba/ftp/docs/textdocs/

Main files of interest would be Passwords.txt that refers you to somewhere
like
http://au1.samba.org/samba/docs/man/smb.conf.5.html#securityequalserver

I've never tried it, just read about it so I'm not willing to directly
comment on it, but they're the docs concerning it.

Hope this helps,

Bernard.

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Oliver White wrote:
> Hi folks.
> 
> A friend of mine had a query about samba, which I said I'd ask for him.
> 
> <IRC>
>     <|kimba|> basically .. need to know how it intergrates between NT
> and Unix .. and if it provides the security model between the too .. or
> if the security still falls back to the unix ?
> </IRC>
> 

-- 
 Bernard Blackham
 dagobah at mad.scientist.com





From clintcar at bigpond.com  Tue Sep 19 21:46:44 2000
From: clintcar at bigpond.com (Clint Carlson)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:46:44 +1000
Subject: [plug]RAM
References: <39C703B1.2C782921@iinet.net.au> <00091914220800.00154@darkstar> <39C7094F.9930593D@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <004d01c02240$10022040$3e5a868b@pbncomputer>




> Beau Kuiper wrote:
>
> > > The BIOS detects the 128 meg but when linux come to the login prompt
it
> > > says it only has 64.
> >
> > try the boot option ram=128M
>
> funny... I don't have that option set, and my system detects all 128MB.
>
> --
> Oli White
>
>
Maybe it is something to do with Mandrake as well. On Red Hat linux
recognises my 128kb of memory, but upon istalling Mandrake 7.1 (using
experinced setup) it came up with only 63mb of memory. On the experienced
setup you may modify this, which is how I got around it....





From woodward at omen.net.au  Wed Sep 20 01:35:37 2000
From: woodward at omen.net.au (Clive Woodward)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:35:37 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mmmm...
In-Reply-To: <14791.38535.37039.26125@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au>
References: <39C72747.910681A9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
 <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds>
 <001001c021d1$bbf5bf20$8796868b@pbncomputer>
 <39C70427.B3086B23@iinet.net.au>
 <14791.29544.83741.860338@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au>
 <39C72747.910681A9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000920013142.00bfbee0@mail.iinet.net.au>


List,

I'll probably be flamed for sending a .jpg to a discussion list, but this 
just came in and I couldn't resist ;-)  Maybe some of you have seen it before?

Enjoy...


Clive.
-------------- next part --------------
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From kthakur at echidna.stu.cowan.edu.au  Wed Sep 20 02:59:14 2000
From: kthakur at echidna.stu.cowan.edu.au (kailash)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 02:59:14 +0800
Subject: [plug]RAM
In-Reply-To: <005501c02205$c7539b60$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>
References: <39C703B1.2C782921@iinet.net.au> <005501c02205$c7539b60$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>
Message-ID: <00092003040100.11332@gongura.housing.stu.cowan.edu.au>

Matt,
i used to have this problem when i was running Mandrake 6.5. There shouldnt be
a problem with 7.1 (atleast it seemed to detect my 128 MEgs allright).

i resolved the issue by including the following line in my /etc/lilo.conf file:

append="mem=128M"

not 'linux mem' but 'mem' . 

hope that helps.

--kailash.

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Kai wrote:
> Hi Matt !
> 
> This is something I have seen also, all you gotta do to cure this is edit a
> line in your lilo.conf.
> For 128Mb of RAM, you do it like this:
> 
>         append="linux mem=128M"
> 
> And remember to run /sbin/lilo after you've edited that for the changes to
> take effect in the LILO boot sector.
> 
> I hope that helps !
> 
> Kai
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt" <satyr at iinet.net.au>
> To: "PLUG" <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 2:12 PM
> Subject: [plug]RAM
> 
> 
> > Hey All,
> >
> > I have another problem.
> >
> > I am currently running Linux Mandrake 7.1 with Kernel 2.2.16
> >
> > The problem I am having is Linux thinks it only has 64 meg of RAM, but I
> > actually have 128 (2X64 SDRAM).
> >
> > The BIOS detects the 128 meg but when linux come to the login prompt it
> > says it only has 64.
> >
> > I have taken a look at the chips and made sure they are insurted
> > properly, and they are, I have recompiled the Kernel acouple of times
> > but it says the same thing. and i have enven tried the 2.2.15 Kernel.
> >
> > Any help will be appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
> > Matt
> >
> >
> >
> >
-- 
Power to the penguin!


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep 20 09:24:09 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:24:09 +0800
Subject: [plug] BB: give up, install Linux
References: <39C72747.910681A9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
	 <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds>
	 <001001c021d1$bbf5bf20$8796868b@pbncomputer>
	 <39C70427.B3086B23@iinet.net.au>
	 <14791.29544.83741.860338@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au>
	 <39C72747.910681A9@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <4.3.2.7.0.20000920013142.00bfbee0@mail.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39C811B9.5719DB7C@brooks.smileys.net>

Clive Woodward wrote:
> I'll probably be flamed for sending a .jpg to a discussion list, but this
> just came in and I couldn't resist ;-)

Hilarious.

Perhaps we should have a separate subject flag for semi-off-topic stuff like
this. I nominate "BB:" for "Borg Bashing".

-- 
"An important attribute to note [...] is the ease with
 which you can write drivers for linux, and the relatively
 powerful debugging infrastructure that linux has. [...]
 Any idiot could write a driver in 2 days [...] -- there
 is no such thing as a 2-day device-driver for NT."
    -- Nat Brown,
       Lead Program Manager, Microsoft OLE/COM Project


From brad at seme.com.au  Wed Sep 20 11:18:05 2000
From: brad at seme.com.au (Brad Campbell)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:18:05 +0800
Subject: [plug] Anon FTP Accounts
References: <39C72747.910681A9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
		 <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds>
		 <001001c021d1$bbf5bf20$8796868b@pbncomputer>
		 <39C70427.B3086B23@iinet.net.au>
		 <14791.29544.83741.860338@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au>
		 <39C72747.910681A9@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <4.3.2.7.0.20000920013142.00bfbee0@mail.iinet.net.au> <39C811B9.5719DB7C@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39C82C6D.CC74A617@seme.com.au>

G'day all, 
I'm playing with anon ftp accounts on a Debian Slink box,
the man page for ftpd suggests putting ls in 
~ftp/bin so that the ftp client can access a directory listing, 
which is not a bad idea really :p) BUT!
simply copying /bin/ls to ~ftp/bin does not work, because
the ftpd chroots to the ~ftp directory
I have been able to make it work, by creating an ~ftp/lib
directory, and putting libc and ld-linux.so in there, and 
putting ld.so.cache in ~ftp/etc.
Is there a trick to this, or is this the way to go about it.
Or should I just compile up a static version of ls and use
that ?

-- 
Brad....
                   /"\
Save the Forrests  \ /     ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
Burn a Greenie.     X      AGAINST HTML MAIL
                   / \


From robd at rover.wa.cmis.CSIRO.AU  Wed Sep 20 11:40:53 2000
From: robd at rover.wa.cmis.CSIRO.AU (Rob Dunne)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:40:53 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Anon FTP Accounts
In-Reply-To: <39C82C6D.CC74A617@seme.com.au>
References: <39C72747.910681A9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
	<200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds>
	<001001c021d1$bbf5bf20$8796868b@pbncomputer>
	<39C70427.B3086B23@iinet.net.au>
	<14791.29544.83741.860338@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au>
	<4.3.2.7.0.20000920013142.00bfbee0@mail.iinet.net.au>
	<39C811B9.5719DB7C@brooks.smileys.net>
	<39C82C6D.CC74A617@seme.com.au>
Message-ID: <14792.12741.254680.318790@rover.wa.cmis.CSIRO.AU>

Hi Brad,
       that appears to be what is done on RedHat 6.0
tp/lib has the following libs
lycra >ls
ld-2.1.1.so*    libc-2.1.1.so*  libnsl-2.1.1.so*  libnss_files-2.1.1.so*
ld-linux.so.2@  libc.so.6@      libnsl.so.1@      libnss_files.so.2@

Brad Campbell writes:
 > G'day all, 
 > I'm playing with anon ftp accounts on a Debian Slink box,
 > the man page for ftpd suggests putting ls in 
 > ~ftp/bin so that the ftp client can access a directory listing, 
 > which is not a bad idea really :p) BUT!
 > simply copying /bin/ls to ~ftp/bin does not work, because
 > the ftpd chroots to the ~ftp directory
 > I have been able to make it work, by creating an ~ftp/lib
 > directory, and putting libc and ld-linux.so in there, and 
 > putting ld.so.cache in ~ftp/etc.
 > Is there a trick to this, or is this the way to go about it.
 > Or should I just compile up a static version of ls and use
 > that ?
 > 
 > -- 
 > Brad....

-- 
 Rob Dunne         Fax: +61 8 9333 6121     Tel: +61 8 9333 6178
 CSIRO Mathematical and Information Sciences
 Leeuwin Centre for Earth Sensing Technologies 
 Private Bag 5, P.O., Wembley, Western Australia, 6013         
 http://matilda.vu.edu.au/~dunne  Email: Robert.Dunne at cmis.csiro.au

        Java has certainly revolutionized marketing and litigation.



From chris at mnet.com.au  Wed Sep 20 12:22:34 2000
From: chris at mnet.com.au (Christopher Darby)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:22:34 +0800
Subject: [plug] Format
Message-ID: <BAEGKAMANPNDGLLKPEAMMEJICAAA.chris@mnet.com.au>


Excuse my ignorance and stupidity as i have never performed this task
before, i have just installed a removable hard-disk in one of our servers
for backup purposes, how do i format the thing, ive created partions, all i
need to do is format it to the ext2 file system...

can someone help

thanks
Chris



From zombie at wasp.net.au  Wed Sep 20 12:28:06 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:28:06 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Format
In-Reply-To: <BAEGKAMANPNDGLLKPEAMMEJICAAA.chris@mnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000920122722.6668c-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, Christopher Darby wrote:

> need to do is format it to the ext2 file system...

mke2fs /dev/xxx

or

mkfs.ext2 /dev/xxx

Should do the trick

 - Matt



From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Wed Sep 20 12:47:09 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:47:09 +0800
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
Message-ID: <00ab01c022bd$d9feed60$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

G'day all,

I've had this problem for a while and I am no Linux expert, so I was
wondering if anyone had any ideas?
I use my Linux 5.2 machine as an online radio, ie you log in, tune and and
listen to the radio.
Sometimes (too often and at the wrong times) though the encoder in the
server stops because of this error from /var/log/messages :
linux kernel: Sound: DMA (input) timed out - IRQ/DRQ config error?

Does anybody know how I could fix this?
Every time I get this error the audio encoder stops encoding and nobody who
uses the radio can get sound, in fact they get an error someting to the
effect of "The link you're looking for is either outdated or does not
exist...."

I would really love to get rid of this problem so audio streams constantly
and users don't get errors.

Does anyone have any ideas?
Many thanks in advance !

Kai



From chris at mnet.com.au  Wed Sep 20 12:32:02 2000
From: chris at mnet.com.au (Christopher Darby)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:32:02 +0800
Subject: [plug] Format
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000920122722.6668c-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <BAEGKAMANPNDGLLKPEAMGEJJCAAA.chris@mnet.com.au>

thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Kemner [mailto:zombie at wasp.net.au]
Sent: Wednesday, 20 September 2000 12:28 PM
To: plug at plug.linux.org.au
Subject: Re: [plug] Format


On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, Christopher Darby wrote:

> need to do is format it to the ext2 file system...

mke2fs /dev/xxx

or

mkfs.ext2 /dev/xxx

Should do the trick

 - Matt



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep 20 12:50:46 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:50:46 +0800
Subject: [plug] Anon FTP Accounts
References: <39C72747.910681A9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
			 <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds>
			 <001001c021d1$bbf5bf20$8796868b@pbncomputer>
			 <39C70427.B3086B23@iinet.net.au>
			 <14791.29544.83741.860338@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au>
			 <39C72747.910681A9@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <4.3.2.7.0.20000920013142.00bfbee0@mail.iinet.net.au> <39C811B9.5719DB7C@brooks.smileys.net> <39C82C6D.CC74A617@seme.com.au>
Message-ID: <39C84226.A01B07FA@brooks.smileys.net>

Brad Campbell wrote:
> I have been able to make it work, by creating an ~ftp/lib
> directory, and putting libc and ld-linux.so in there, and
> putting ld.so.cache in ~ftp/etc.
> Is there a trick to this, or is this the way to go about it.
> Or should I just compile up a static version of ls and use
> that ?

Usually, the "copying" is done with hard links rather than an actual copy, but
otherwise yes.

> Save the Forrests  \ /     ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN

s/rr/r/    -- ASCII CORRECTOR-RIBBON CAMPAIGN (-:

-- 
A celebrity is someone who works hard all his life to become known
and then wears dark glasses to avoid being recognized.


From baker at netwest.com.au  Wed Sep 20 13:18:44 2000
From: baker at netwest.com.au (Mark Baker)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 13:18:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] FW: [AUUG-CHAPTERS]: AUUG WA  September Meeting:  Stealth Unix
Message-ID: <219B0FEF1841D41192D70040C79959AE010E6B@ntserver.netwest.com.au>

All PLUG members are very welcome.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Toivo Pedaste [SMTP:toivo at ucs.uwa.edu.au]
> Sent:	Wednesday, September 20, 2000 12:38 PM
> To:	waugy at eleusis.ucs.uwa.edu.au
> Subject:	[AUUG-CHAPTERS]: AUUG WA  September Meeting:  Stealth Unix
> 
> Subject: AUUG WA  September: Stealth Unix
> -----------------------------------+--------------------------------------
>                             WAUG  Meeting
>                          The Victoria League
>                            276 Onslow Road
>                              Shenton Park
> 
>                       Wednesday September 20, 2000
>                                 6.15pm
> 
> 
>                              Don Griffiths
>                           Information Systems
>                            Curtin University
> 
>                             Stealth Unix
> 
>                             
> Don will discuss three different Unix development environments that
> operate
> under the Windows NT operating system.
> 
> 
> 
> NOTE: There won't be any food provided as part of the
> meeting however a snack menu is available at the bar
> between 6pm and 8pm.
> 
> 
> This meeting will be held at our regular venue, the premises of the
> Victoria League. These are located on the western corner of Onslow
> Road and King Street, Shenton Park. Coming from the city down Thomas
> Street, Onslow Road is the first right after the Rockeby Road traffic
> lights. The premises are about 1.5km down Onslow on the Right. 
> There are bar facilities available.
> -----------------------------------+-----------------------------------


From steven at algarburns.com.au  Wed Sep 20 13:25:02 2000
From: steven at algarburns.com.au (Steve Alilovic)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 13:25:02 +0800
Subject: [plug] Apache Problems
Message-ID: <C4DBF89155A6D311A7E500A0CC3970EE030AAF@PUMA>

I having a slight problem configuring apache. 
Run the standard ./configure --prefix=/usr/local/apache   they completes
fine.

When I run the make command it exit on this error. Using apache_1.3.4 .

gcc -c  -I../os/unix -I../include   -DLINUX=2 -DUSE_HSREGEX `../apaci`
alloc.c
gcc -c  -I../os/unix -I../include   -DLINUX=2 -DUSE_HSREGEX `../apaci`
buff.c
buff.c: In function `ap_bhalfduplex':
buff.c:605: Invalid `asm' statement:
buff.c:605: fixed or forbidden register 2 (cx) was spilled for class CREG.
make[3]: *** [buff.o] Error 1
make[2]: *** [subdirs] Error 1
make[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/src/apache_1.3.4/src'
make[1]: *** [build-std] Error 2
make[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/src/apache_1.3.4'
make: *** [build] Error 2

Using the RPM package is not an options unfortunately.

Any help thanks


From chris at mnet.com.au  Wed Sep 20 13:56:29 2000
From: chris at mnet.com.au (Christopher Darby)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 13:56:29 +0800
Subject: [plug] Network Adaptor
Message-ID: <BAEGKAMANPNDGLLKPEAMCEJKCAAA.chris@mnet.com.au>


Ive just installed Linux Mandrake 7.1 on my laptop, i have a D-Link DFE660TX
PCMCIA Ethernet Adaptor, under RedHat this adaptor was auto-detected, it
failed to auto-detect under mandrake and i need to know where i can find
information on how to install this adaptor under linux.

Can anyone help

Chris



From andrew at belzedar.leederville.it.net.au  Wed Sep 20 15:02:50 2000
From: andrew at belzedar.leederville.it.net.au (Andrew Howell)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:02:50 +0800
Subject: [plug] Samba query
In-Reply-To: <39C6FC1D.B441AAD0@iinet.net.au>; from ojw@iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 01:39:41PM +0800
References: <39C6FC1D.B441AAD0@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000920150250.A1276@staff.it.net.au>

On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 01:39:41PM +0800, Oliver White wrote:
> Hi folks.
> 
> A friend of mine had a query about samba, which I said I'd ask for him.
> 
> <IRC>
>     <|kimba|> basically .. need to know how it intergrates between NT
> and Unix .. and if it provides the security model between the too .. or
> if the security still falls back to the unix ?
> </IRC>
> 
> I hope this makes sense, I know bugger all about samba, so I don't know
> if the question is meaningful or not.

It depends on how you configure samba. With encrypted passwords on it
authenticates against either a smbpasswd file, or you can get it to auth
against a NT domain controller.

You still need a unix account though, but you can configure samba to
automatically create one when someone with a NT account tries to connect
to a share on the samba box.

File security works on unix permissions but you can also do security on
a share basis via samba's config.

For more info read the docs on samba's web site. Or there are a number of
good samba books.

Or ask another question :)

Andrew

-- 
Andrew Howell
Managing Director
Informed Technology
E-mail: andrew at it.net.au
Ph: 08 9380 4244  Fax: 08 9380 4354


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Wed Sep 20 16:29:25 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:29:25 +0800
Subject: [plug] Samba query
References: <39C6FC1D.B441AAD0@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39C87565.E41F7BE8@brooks.smileys.net>

Oliver White wrote:
> A friend of mine had a query about samba, which I said I'd ask for him.

> <IRC>
>     <|kimba|> basically .. need to know how it intergrates between NT
> and Unix .. and if it provides the security model between the too .. or
> if the security still falls back to the unix ?
> </IRC>

Samba can operate at the wire-and-packets level with several different Windows
"security" models. None of which, it is important to note, are terribly secure.
http://www.l0pht.com/ for example, has excellent sniffing/cracking tools for SMB
(the normal Windows networking system) and PPTP (the normal Windows VPN system).
Given that all it takes for one of these tools to swing into action is for a
Windows client to read the wrong email or visit the wrong website, a network in
which a Windows machine (or protocol) participates is difficult to consider as
secure, although if for some insane reason you were to set up a SaMBa-only SMB
network, it would be slightly easier to protect.

A SaMBa server stores files on disk using the simple and powerful three-level
Unix security model. Even if the files are stored on an NTFS
partition/floppy/CD, this is still so to some extent. This is different to
Windows, which uses no security model at all (95/98/ME) or an ACL-based model
(NT/2000). It is fairly simple to map ACLs and Unix users/groups in parallel,
thus maintaining identical-in-effect security models on all systems. ACLs are
generally more difficult to maintain than the three-level security system.

Will the channel kick you if you paste that many words into it?

-- 
The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore,
be regarded as a criminal offense.
    -- E. W. Dijkstra


From kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au  Wed Sep 20 20:44:00 2000
From: kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au (Shackleton, Kevin)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:44:00 +0800
Subject: [plug] Samba query
Message-ID: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919F0E39E@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>

On this general subject, I just spent a couple more hours (the total is
getting out of hand . .) trying to figure what a school network is doing.
It's exhibiting the strangest symptoms, such as hosts can't ping other hosts
on the same subnet (all Winxx).  One curious statistic is that tcpdump shows
a lot of 'arp who-has' messages.

While I'd like to take the whole network down and build it back up bit by
bit, I can't see that happening in the next few weeks (for one I've got to
go off fencing contracting).

Is there a well-known (to someone!) problem that would lead to this
behaviour?  I can't decide if it's the Cisco switch confusing the network by
not broadcasting broadcasts, or if it's the WinNT host set up as a PDC and
as the router between the admin and curriculum networks (MS specifically
recommend against this).  Maybe even it's DHCP server leading the clients to
know very little about themselves.

I'd like to think that a Linux host on the network (providing in the first
instance browse master and WINS services) would instantly cure the problems.
However that wasn't the case, but I'm sure a few hours of bringing the
system back up using Linux services rather than NT would show what was the
problem.

K.




From Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au  Wed Sep 20 20:49:39 2000
From: Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au (Brian Tombleson)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:49:39 +0800
Subject: [plug] Samba query
References: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919F0E39E@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <008301c02301$3d2d43d0$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>

Apart from checking hardware (Cisco & hubs) and your routing tables, the
only time I've seen this happen is when a WinNT-5 (the beta release before
Win2K) Server went burko with browser elections and continually called for
them - essentially blocking the network but not totally.  Pings failed from
WinX machines at this time as they timeout after 0.03 seconds.

Out of interest, we fixed it without knowing when we turned on the Linux
machine we had for different testing - looking to see if we can snoop the
packets and solve the problem - which immediately shut the Win elections up
because it won them outright and settled things :)  It was confusing because
Linux On -> no problem, Linux Off - > network full.

Sorry if this isn't much help :(  Are you getting physical network traffic
(check the lights on the hub are flashing appropriately when you ping)? ..

- Brian.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shackleton, Kevin" <kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 8:44 PM
Subject: RE: [plug] Samba query


> On this general subject, I just spent a couple more hours (the total is
> getting out of hand . .) trying to figure what a school network is doing.
> It's exhibiting the strangest symptoms, such as hosts can't ping other
hosts
> on the same subnet (all Winxx).  One curious statistic is that tcpdump
shows
> a lot of 'arp who-has' messages.




From Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au  Wed Sep 20 21:37:46 2000
From: Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:37:46 +0800
Subject: [plug] Anon FTP Accounts
References: <39C72747.910681A9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>		 <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds>		 <001001c021d1$bbf5bf20$8796868b@pbncomputer>		 <39C70427.B3086B23@iinet.net.au>		 <14791.29544.83741.860338@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au>		 <39C72747.910681A9@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <4.3.2.7.0.20000920013142.00bfbee0@mail.iinet.net.au> <39C811B9.5719DB7C@brooks.smileys.net> <39C82C6D.CC74A617@seme.com.au> <39C84226.A01B07FA@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c02308$1ccecf80$818010ac@terminus>

> > Is there a trick to this, or is this the way to go about it.
> > Or should I just compile up a static version of ls and use
> > that ?
>
> Usually, the "copying" is done with hard links rather than an actual copy,
but
> otherwise yes.

Unless you use something like proftpd in which case you don't need to bother
with this kind of thing as the ls and other basic file/directory handling
commands are coded into the daemon.



From michael at harvestroad.com  Thu Sep 21 08:31:45 2000
From: michael at harvestroad.com (Michael De Santis)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 08:31:45 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mouse Pointer goes cazy
Message-ID: <39C956F1.8BFD1519@harvestroad.com>

HI,

Using Redhat 6.2 with the KDE manager and every so often the mouse
pointer decides to run amok and position itself in the top hand corner
of the monitor. I usually have to wait a few seconds before it comes
under control again. This also used to happen on previous version of
Redhat and also under the Gnome desktop.

Does anybody knows what causing this and more importantly how to correct
it ?

Thanks in advance   
Micheal
-- 
Michael De Santis                        michael at harvestroad.com
Systems Administrator                    Harvestroad Limited 

                 http://www.harvestroad.com


From colin at durbanet.co.za  Thu Sep 21 08:38:21 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 08:38:21 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mouse Pointer goes cazy
References: <39C956F1.8BFD1519@harvestroad.com>
Message-ID: <39C9587D.6D8462A6@durbanet.co.za>

Michael De Santis wrote:
> Using Redhat 6.2 with the KDE manager and every so often the mouse
> pointer decides to run amok and position itself in the top hand corner
> of the monitor. I usually have to wait a few seconds before it comes
> under control again. This also used to happen on previous version of
> Redhat and also under the Gnome desktop.
> 
> Does anybody knows what causing this and more importantly how to correct
> it ?

If it's an IBM ThinkPad trackpoint thingie, it's a ThinkPad weakness,
and the keyboard will need replacing. If not, can't help you I'm afraid.

Colin


From Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com  Thu Sep 21 08:44:53 2000
From: Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com (de Vries, Arie)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:44:53 +1100
Subject: [plug] Samba query
Message-ID: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D803240297@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>

Kevin,

If the DHCP server is not handing out IP addresses.
WINxx will auto configure into a reserved M$ range of 169.254.0.0
Check the IP address of the WINxx machines.

Regards, Arie de Vries.
08 9491 5193


-----Original Message-----
From: Shackleton, Kevin [mailto:kshackleton at agric.wa.gov.au]
Sent: Wednesday, 20 September 2000 8:26 PM
To: plug at plug.linux.org.au
Subject: RE: [plug] Samba query

On this general subject, I just spent a couple more hours (the total is
getting out of hand . .) trying to figure what a school network is doing.
It's exhibiting the strangest symptoms, such as hosts can't ping other hosts
on the same subnet (all Winxx).  One curious statistic is that tcpdump shows
a lot of 'arp who-has' messages.

While I'd like to take the whole network down and build it back up bit by
bit, I can't see that happening in the next few weeks (for one I've got to
go off fencing contracting).

Is there a well-known (to someone!) problem that would lead to this
behaviour?  I can't decide if it's the Cisco switch confusing the network by
not broadcasting broadcasts, or if it's the WinNT host set up as a PDC and
as the router between the admin and curriculum networks (MS specifically
recommend against this).  Maybe even it's DHCP server leading the clients to
know very little about themselves.

I'd like to think that a Linux host on the network (providing in the first
instance browse master and WINS services) would instantly cure the problems.
However that wasn't the case, but I'm sure a few hours of bringing the
system back up using Linux services rather than NT would show what was the
problem.

K.



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 21 08:48:06 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 08:48:06 +0800
Subject: [plug] Samba query
References: <2BCD8A1EC385D311AE9B000629500919F0E39E@agspsrv19.agric.wa.gov.au>
Message-ID: <39C95AC6.73E34DEF@brooks.smileys.net>

"Shackleton, Kevin" wrote:
> It's exhibiting the strangest symptoms, such as hosts can't ping other hosts
> on the same subnet (all Winxx).

> Is there a well-known (to someone!) problem that would lead to this
> behaviour?

See previous paragraph, parenthesised section. (-:

> One curious statistic is that tcpdump shows
> a lot of 'arp who-has' messages.

The offender should have a busy hub/switch light when nobody's doing anything. A
flakey network card or driver will achieve this effect, as a Windows box can be
fooled into demanding an election every time the card hiccups, which may be
every few seconds.

> I'd like to think that a Linux host on the network (providing in the first
> instance browse master and WINS services) would instantly cure the problems.
> However that wasn't the case,

Try setting Samba to win all elections.

Try shutting down *all* of the Window machines together.

If you can't fix it in software, and have the equipment to hand, put (a)
switch(es) in the loop and see if that calms things down.

-- 
Linux: The choice of a GNU generation


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 21 10:04:02 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:04:02 +0800
Subject: [plug] Samba query
References: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D803240297@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>
Message-ID: <39C96C92.9AC66DA6@brooks.smileys.net>

"de Vries, Arie" wrote:
> Kevin,

> If the DHCP server is not handing out IP addresses.
> WINxx will auto configure into a reserved M$ range of 169.254.0.0

Uh, do you happen to know anywhere that this is actually used?

> Check the IP address of the WINxx machines.

Kevin, you might also try putting up a DHCP server, preferably on a Linux box.
Many odd things like an Office97 install (<sarcasm weight=crushing>now why
didn't _I_ think of that? of course! that's _exactly_ what you'd expect an
office suit to do!</sarcasm>) will silently switch DHCP back on again.

-- 
"What you end up with, after running an operating system concept
through these many marketing coffee filters, is something not
unlike plain hot water." -- Matt Welsh


From Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com  Thu Sep 21 11:25:02 2000
From: Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com (de Vries, Arie)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:25:02 +1100
Subject: [plug] Samba query
Message-ID: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D803240298@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>


From leonb at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 21 11:54:06 2000
From: leonb at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks" <leon@brooks.smileys.net)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:54:06 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Samba query (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009211153470.1684-100000@proxy.firestation.fdns.net>

On Thu, 21 Sep 2000, de Vries, Arie wrote:
>>> If the DHCP server is not handing out IP addresses.
>>> WINxx will auto configure into a reserved M$ range of 169.254.0.0

>> Uh, do you happen to know anywhere that this is actually used?

> From M$ 
> <Quote>
> If a DHCP server is not reached or leased configuration fails, the computer
> uses APIPA (Automatic Private IP Addressing) to automatically configure
> TCP/IP. When APIPA is used, Windows 2000 determines an address in the
> Microsoft-reserved IP addressing range from 169.254.0.1 through
> 169.254.255.254. This address is used until a DHCP server is located. The
> subnet mask is set to 255.255.0.0.

> The range of IP addresses (from 169.254.0.1 through 169.254.255.254) used
> for APIPA is reserved by the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA). Any
> IP addresses within this range are not used on the Internet.
> </Quote>

> <Quote>
> With Windows 98, Microsoft TCP/IP provides a new mechanism for IP
> addressing, called automatic private IP addressing. If you have a small
> network, without a DHCP server, you can assign a unique IP address to your
> network adapter using the "LINKLOCAL network" IP address space. LINKLOCAL
> network addresses always begin with 169.254 and have the following format:
> 169.254.X.X 
> </Quote>

> The consequence of this is that each machine will select a random IP
> address. Hence Kevin's problem of unable to ping and 'arp who-has' messages.

OK, so if I see 169[now there's an appropriate number!].254.*.* packets on
any of my subnets I can deduce that (1) there is a Windows 200 machine
about (hide the women! hide the children! guns! get the guns!); (2) it
hasn't been configured appropriately.

I wonder, does the default Windows 2000... errr... configuration (for lack
of a better word) respond to SMB? That is, can I use nmblookup on such an
IP to find out what it thinks it is called, etc?

--
Remember when you only had to pay for broken windows
if _you_ broke them?



From leonb at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 21 11:54:47 2000
From: leonb at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks" <leon@brooks.smileys.net)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:54:47 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Samba query (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009211154180.1684-100000@proxy.firestation.fdns.net>

On Thu, 21 Sep 2000, de Vries, Arie wrote:

> When APIPA is used, Windows 2000 determines an address in the
> Microsoft-reserved IP addressing range from 169.254.0.1 through
> 169.254.255.254. This address is used until a DHCP server is located. The
> subnet mask is set to 255.255.0.0.

Also (and yes, the answer is _proably_ "because they are Microsoft") do
you know WTF didn't MS use one of the private B classes? 172.16.*.* or
something?

--
If at first you don't succeed, reinstall from scratch.



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Thu Sep 21 12:07:15 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:07:15 +0800
Subject: [plug] Samba query (fwd)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009211153470.1684-100000@proxy.firestation.fdns.net>
Message-ID: <39C98973.F295D6C4@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

"\"Leon Brooks\" " wrote:
> 

<snip>

> OK, so if I see 169[now there's an appropriate number!].254.*.* packets on
> any of my subnets I can deduce that (1) there is a Windows 200 machine
> about (hide the women! hide the children! guns! get the guns!); (2) it
> hasn't been configured appropriately.

Is this a Freudian slip, or something?

Do you really think that Windows 2* is from 200 AD, and, therefore, out
of the Dark Ages (I think that 200AD is after the stone age) (maybe,
that is what started people doing things, like witch-burning - "what,
you use windows? - Evil! - Burn! Burn!", or, maybe, that is where they
got the idea of dunking - "Windows? See whether dunking it in water,
will make it run better..."), or, is it that you think that the current
version of Windows, is the 200th revision of the version (what, only the
200th?) ?

Perhaps, what we have here, is evolutionary regression - windows going
back to a stage of functionality, before that of Windows 286?

<snip>

> --
> Remember when you only had to pay for broken windows
> if _you_ broke them?


-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com  Thu Sep 21 13:08:31 2000
From: Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com (de Vries, Arie)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:08:31 +1100
Subject: [plug] Samba query (fwd)
Message-ID: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D803240299@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>

I was only trying to help Kevin by pointing out the default behaviour of M$,
when a network interface was configured to 'Obtain an IP address
automatically' and there were problems with DHCP.

But if you think I'm wrong, OK, "I'll take my bat and go home"

Regards, Arie de Vries.
08 9491 5193

-----Original Message-----
From: "Leon Brooks" 

> The consequence of this is that each machine will select a random IP
> address. Hence Kevin's problem of unable to ping and 'arp who-has'
messages.

OK, so if I see 169[now there's an appropriate number!].254.*.* packets on
any of my subnets I can deduce that (1) there is a Windows 200 machine
about (hide the women! hide the children! guns! get the guns!); (2) it
hasn't been configured appropriately.

I wonder, does the default Windows 2000... errr... configuration (for lack
of a better word) respond to SMB? That is, can I use nmblookup on such an
IP to find out what it thinks it is called, etc?

--
Remember when you only had to pay for broken windows
if _you_ broke them?


From Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com  Thu Sep 21 13:19:47 2000
From: Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com (de Vries, Arie)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:19:47 +1100
Subject: [plug] Samba query (fwd)
Message-ID: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80324029A@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>

No I don't.
But the next paragraph of the quote stated, "The range of IP addresses (from
169.254.0.1 through 169.254.255.254) used
for APIPA is reserved by the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA)."

Regards, Arie de Vries.
08 9491 5193

-----Original Message-----
From: "Leon Brooks

On Thu, 21 Sep 2000, de Vries, Arie wrote:

> When APIPA is used, Windows 2000 determines an address in the
> Microsoft-reserved IP addressing range from 169.254.0.1 through
> 169.254.255.254. This address is used until a DHCP server is located. The
> subnet mask is set to 255.255.0.0.

Also (and yes, the answer is _proably_ "because they are Microsoft") do
you know WTF didn't MS use one of the private B classes? 172.16.*.* or
something?

--
If at first you don't succeed, reinstall from scratch.


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 21 13:59:40 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:59:40 +0800
Subject: [plug] Samba query (fwd)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009211153470.1684-100000@proxy.firestation.fdns.net> <39C98973.F295D6C4@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39C9A3CC.4CE5F24A@brooks.smileys.net>

Bret Busby wrote:
> Leon Brooks wrote:

>> OK, so if I see 169[now there's an appropriate number!].254.*.* packets on
>> any of my subnets I can deduce that (1) there is a Windows 200 machine
>> about (hide the women! hide the children! guns! get the guns!);

> Is this a Freudian slip, or something?

No, one too many delete keystrokes in Pine. I generally don't wear a
slip. (-:

> Do you really think that Windows 2*

You mean Windows 2/22/222/2222 ?

> is from 200 AD, and, therefore, out
> of the Dark Ages (I think that 200AD is after the stone age) (maybe,
> that is what started people doing things, like witch-burning - "what,
> you use windows? - Evil! - Burn! Burn!"

Does it weigh the same as a duck?

-- 
If at first you don't succeed, try a shorter bungee.


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 21 14:03:24 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:03:24 +0800
Subject: [plug] Samba query (fwd)
References: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D803240299@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>
Message-ID: <39C9A4AC.C499C75F@brooks.smileys.net>

"de Vries, Arie" wrote:
> I was only trying to help Kevin by pointing out the default behaviour of M$,
> when a network interface was configured to 'Obtain an IP address
> automatically' and there were problems with DHCP.

You _are_ being helpful. All of this Windows bizarrity is useful stuff I
didn't know before. Do you know if W2k responds normally in SMB when
it's semi-configured like this?

> But if you think I'm wrong, OK, "I'll take my bat and go home"

No, I don't think you're wrong and I don't know where you got that
impression.

A better idea would be to take your bat and use it on Bill each time he
lies or causes some new proprietary incompatibility to happen. The
bat'll be worn out in no time, is the down-side.

-- 
If at first you don't succeed, try a shorter bungee.


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 21 14:07:56 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:07:56 +0800
Subject: [plug] Samba query (fwd)
References: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80324029A@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>
Message-ID: <39C9A5BC.6E229A91@brooks.smileys.net>

"de Vries, Arie" wrote:
>>> When APIPA is used, Windows 2000 determines an address in the
>>> Microsoft-reserved IP addressing range from 169.254.0.1 through
>>> 169.254.255.254. This address is used until a DHCP server is located. The
>>> subnet mask is set to 255.255.0.0.

>> Also (and yes, the answer is _proably_ "because they are Microsoft") do
>> you know WTF didn't MS use one of the private B classes? 172.16.*.* or
>> something?

> No I don't.

> But the next paragraph of the quote stated, "The range of IP addresses (from
> 169.254.0.1 through 169.254.255.254) used
> for APIPA is reserved by the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA)."

Hmmm. I can't see it in the appropriate RFC
(http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc1918.txt) but I'll look a bit further.

-- 
If at first you don't succeed, try a shorter bungee.


From TonyTa at chisholm.wa.edu.au  Thu Sep 21 13:58:32 2000
From: TonyTa at chisholm.wa.edu.au (Tony TA)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:58:32 +0800
Subject: [plug] pppd
Message-ID: <0B4B03F4DFA8D311B9A400009297182401B318@ccciis.chisholm.intranet.au>

Has anyone tried to set up a Dialin Server and has pppd reported 

"pppd[910]:Peer is not authorized to use remote address aa.bb.cc.dd" 

and aa.bb.cc.dd is your local subnet with no IP conflict ?? 

Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

please email me back at my email address tonyta at chisholm.wa.edu.au 


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 21 14:12:31 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:12:31 +0800
Subject: [plug] Martians (was SaMBa query)
References: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80324029A@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>
Message-ID: <39C9A6CF.D8FADDE5@brooks.smileys.net>

"de Vries, Arie" wrote:
> the next paragraph of the quote stated, "The range of IP addresses (from
> 169.254.0.1 through 169.254.255.254) used
> for APIPA is reserved by the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA)."

Inetresting discussion here (click on "thread" link): 

    http://www.cctec.com/maillists/nanog/historical/9907/msg00236.html

Listed in that message:

    1.0.0.0             reserved for IANA
    19.255.0.0          this belongs to Ford
    59.0.0.0            reserved for IANA
    129.156.0.0         this belongs to SUN
    169.254.0.0         IANA use for local link numbers???
    192.0.2.0           reserved for IANA
    192.5.0.0           no ARIN match
    192.9.200.0         no ARIN match
    192.9.99.0          this belongs to SUN



-- 
If at first you don't succeed, try a shorter bungee.


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 21 14:19:49 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:19:49 +0800
Subject: [plug] Samba query (fwd)
References: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80324029A@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>
Message-ID: <39C9A885.3E358490@brooks.smileys.net>

"de Vries, Arie" wrote:
> Microsoft-reserved IP addressing range from 169.254.0.1 through
> 169.254.255.254.

Goldmine, with detailed explanations, here:

http://www.cs-ipv6.lancs.ac.uk/ipv6/documents/standards/general-comms/internet-drafts/draft-manning-dsua-01.txt

Thanks for prompting that little learning exercise, Arie!

-- 
If at first you don't succeed, try a shorter bungee.


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Thu Sep 21 14:09:07 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:09:07 +0800
Subject: [plug] Martians (was SaMBa query)
References: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80324029A@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au> <39C9A6CF.D8FADDE5@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39C9A603.6164D7C3@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Leon Brooks wrote:
> 
> "de Vries, Arie" wrote:
> > the next paragraph of the quote stated, "The range of IP addresses (from
> > 169.254.0.1 through 169.254.255.254) used
> > for APIPA is reserved by the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA)."
> 
> Inetresting discussion here (click on "thread" link):
> 
>     http://www.cctec.com/maillists/nanog/historical/9907/msg00236.html
> 
> Listed in that message:
> 
>     1.0.0.0             reserved for IANA
>     19.255.0.0          this belongs to Ford
>     59.0.0.0            reserved for IANA
>     129.156.0.0         this belongs to SUN
>     169.254.0.0         IANA use for local link numbers???
>     192.0.2.0           reserved for IANA
>     192.5.0.0           no ARIN match
>     192.9.200.0         no ARIN match
>     192.9.99.0          this belongs to SUN
> 
> --
> If at first you don't succeed, try a shorter bungee.

I am surprised that it does not mention Mercedes Benz, in the list
above. From memory, Mercedes Benz has an extremely large block of IP
addresses, that were sought to be repurchased from them, for general
distribution, to defer the problem of running out of IP addresses.
Mercedes Benz refused, responding that they intended for all their new
cars to have IP addresses, to be able to communicate by wireless
Interent communication, with their international headquarters, so
automatically diagnosing and repairing faults, and, upgrading software,
etc (apart from telling Mercedes Benz who is doing what with whom, in
the back seat).

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au  Thu Sep 21 14:38:02 2000
From: Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au (Brian Tombleson)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:38:02 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web DB ..
Message-ID: <002f01c02396$7e077b60$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>

Hello List,

I'm wondering if anyone does (or can recommend someone) for HTTPD-based
database app ..

Basically a thin web client on free server services
(Apache/PostgreSQL/Perl/PHP/etc).

If you do this commercially, I would be interested to talk about a project.

Regards,

Brian Tombleson
Paradigm IT Consulting
www at ParadigmIT.com.au
Admin at ParadigmIT.com.au




From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Thu Sep 21 16:04:36 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:04:36 +0800
Subject: [plug] SCSI CDR/CDRW advice needed
Message-ID: <20000921160436.C26261@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

G'day Folks,

I'm looking to buy a SCSI CD-R or CD-RW (probably RW since everything is RW
nowadays). Can anyone give me some recommendations, of course the
thing has to work with Linux ;) I have a SCSI-2 controller, so would anything 
with a higher spec'd scsi interface work?



Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com  Thu Sep 21 16:13:55 2000
From: Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com (de Vries, Arie)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:13:55 +1100
Subject: [plug] Samba query (fwd)
Message-ID: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80324029B@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>

I don't know enough about SMB to answer how W2k responds.

Maybe Richard Sharpe who is a SMB expert can supply an answer?

Regards, Arie de Vries.
08 9491 5193

-----Original Message-----
From: Leon Brooks 
"de Vries, Arie" wrote:
> I was only trying to help Kevin by pointing out the default behaviour of
M$,
> when a network interface was configured to 'Obtain an IP address
> automatically' and there were problems with DHCP.

You _are_ being helpful. All of this Windows bizarrity is useful stuff I
didn't know before. Do you know if W2k responds normally in SMB when
it's semi-configured like this?




From nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au  Thu Sep 21 16:47:08 2000
From: nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Bannon)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:47:08 +0800
Subject: [plug] SCSI CDR/CDRW advice needed
In-Reply-To: <20000921160436.C26261@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>; from jason@mindsocket.com.au on Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 04:04:36PM +0800
References: <20000921160436.C26261@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>
Message-ID: <20000921164708.O93046@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>

On Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 04:04:36PM +0800, Jason Nicholls wrote:
> I'm looking to buy a SCSI CD-R or CD-RW (probably RW since everything is RW
> nowadays). Can anyone give me some recommendations, of course the

Good plan.

> thing has to work with Linux ;) I have a SCSI-2 controller, so would anything 
> with a higher spec'd scsi interface work?

I don't have a recommendation, but yes - if you did happen to find
an Ultra-SCSI CD-R it'd work fine, as would an UW or U2W, with
appropriate cables. I would imagine that plain, narrow, Ultra or UW
would be most common, though.

Nick.

-- 
  Nick Bannon  | "I made this letter longer than usual because
nick at it.net.au | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal


From nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au  Thu Sep 21 16:58:33 2000
From: nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Bannon)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:58:33 +0800
Subject: [plug] Yggdrasil makes a dual layer DVD
Message-ID: <20000921165833.P93046@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>

http://www.yggdrasil.com/Products/dvd_arc/2000.09/index.html

Yggdrasil's announced availability of the latest version of their
software archives, and I'm going to order a copy.

What's particularly interesting is that they've written free software
to master dual layer DVDs, ie produce a couple of specially formatted
DLT tapes to feed to the pressing machine.

The result is 8 or 9GB of ftp.gnu.org and metalab/ibiblio/sunsite
on one disc. $24.95 US/copy, plus $10 US shipping. Anyone want to
bulk up the order?

Nick.

-- 
  Nick Bannon  | "I made this letter longer than usual because
nick at it.net.au | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal


From kimc at zydeco.ned.dem.csiro.au  Thu Sep 21 17:04:12 2000
From: kimc at zydeco.ned.dem.csiro.au (Kim Covil)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:04:12 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] SCSI CDR/CDRW advice needed
In-Reply-To: <20000921160436.C26261@nikita.mindsocket.com.au> from "Jason Nicholls" at Sep 21, 2000 04:04:36 PM
Message-ID: <200009210904.RAA0000013842@zydeco.ned.dem.csiro.au>

> I'm looking to buy a SCSI CD-R or CD-RW (probably RW since everything is RW
> nowadays). Can anyone give me some recommendations, of course the
> thing has to work with Linux ;) I have a SCSI-2 controller, so would anything 
> with a higher spec'd scsi interface work?

I have been very happy with my Yamaha 4416S CDRW since I got it... very
nice unit... no problems under Linux (it is one of the units donated to
the writer of cdrecord so is used for testing) It is a 4X write, 4X
rewrite, 16X read unit.

There are newer Yamaha models of this out these days with faster
read/write/rewrite speeds... I assume they are of equal or better
quality with the same or more capabilities...

Cheers

Kim

-- 
====================================================================== 
Kim Covil - CSIRO Exploration & Mining   E-mail: kimc at ned.dem.csiro.au
            PO Box 437, Nedlands,        Tel: +61 8 9284 8425   ,-_!\
            Western Australia  6009      Fax: +61 8 9389 1906  /     \
                                                               *_,-._/
=================================================================== v 
   Please direct all personal e-mail to kimbotha at covil.com.au


From christian at amnet.net.au  Thu Sep 21 17:16:53 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:16:53 +0800
Subject: [plug] SCSI CDR/CDRW advice needed
In-Reply-To: <200009210904.RAA0000013842@zydeco.ned.dem.csiro.au>; from kimc@zydeco.ned.dem.csiro.au on Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 05:04:12PM +0800
References: <20000921160436.C26261@nikita.mindsocket.com.au> <200009210904.RAA0000013842@zydeco.ned.dem.csiro.au>
Message-ID: <20000921171653.A28168@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 05:04:12PM +0800, Kim Covil wrote:
 
> I have been very happy with my Yamaha 4416S CDRW since I got it... very
> nice unit... no problems under Linux (it is one of the units donated to
> the writer of cdrecord so is used for testing) It is a 4X write, 4X
> rewrite, 16X read unit.

I'd second this -- my drive (same model) works flawlessly in Linux. :)


From ojw at iinet.net.au  Thu Sep 21 17:38:15 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:38:15 +0000
Subject: [plug] /etc/bashrc
Message-ID: <39C9D707.CA8A6435@iinet.net.au>

I've got a few entries in /etc/bashrc, I was hoping that this would set
up my environment whenever I open a shell... but it doesn't. What file
should I be placing these entries in (CLASSPATH, etc).

TIA,

Oli White



From pfb at users.sourceforge.net  Thu Sep 21 18:18:49 2000
From: pfb at users.sourceforge.net (Peter F Bradshaw)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:18:49 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] IPChains
In-Reply-To: <200009181400.WAA18025@zaphod.frogstar.dds>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009211758090.8162-100000@amarillo.pri>

On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Damion Hill wrote:

> I'm hoping to get a pointer here.
> 
> I've set up a script to apply the IPChains I wish to use for my home 
> network and have them working. The one thing that needs attention 
> is the setting for the IP address. All of the details I've found in doco 
> refer to static IP or DHCP. I dial to iiNet who assign an ip 
> depending on which port you've dialed in to.
> 
> How can I automate the IP setting in my script? At present I'm 
> using ifconfig to get the address and editing a macro in the script 
> before applying the rules. There has to be an easier way!!

Hi;

A lot called Isisglass has written a script that does a fair job of doing 
what you want. In particular it has a section to determine the assigned PPP
address. You may want to incluse that in your script. Just search for 
"isiglass" on freshmeat.

Cheers

--
Peter F Bradshaw          | http://members.dingoblue.net.au/~pfb
pfb at users.sourceforge.net | PGP public key at
http://www.pfb.tsx.org    | http://members.dingoblue.net.au/~pfb/public_key.html
ICQ 75431157 (exadios)    | "Needs more salt" - Archimedes




From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 21 19:50:44 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:50:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] /etc/bashrc
References: <39C9D707.CA8A6435@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39C9F614.8AD03819@brooks.smileys.net>

Oliver White wrote:
> I've got a few entries in /etc/bashrc, I was hoping that this would set
> up my environment whenever I open a shell... but it doesn't. What file
> should I be placing these entries in (CLASSPATH, etc).

Did you export them? <waves at MattK>

    export CLASSPATH=/in/the/bin

-- 
"If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything."
		-- Abraham Lincoln


From simpware at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 21 21:32:19 2000
From: simpware at yahoo.com (Andrew Furey)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 06:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
Message-ID: <20000921133219.819.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com>

> linux kernel: Sound: DMA (input) timed out - IRQ/DRQ
> config error?

Hi Kai,

I don't know if you've had any off-list help with
this, but I didn't see any other replies, so here's my
2 cents worth.

I've had the same problem on some other machines (not
streaming, just general sound card use), so I went
looking on the kernel mailing list archives about it.

I recall seeing a post (sorry, don't have a URL) from
Alan Cox, from a couple of years ago I think. He said
something to the effect that this is a known Linux
kernel problem, which only affects ISA sound cards.

You might try using a PCI one, and see if that helps.
I haven't had any problems with my current PCI card.

Hope this helps

Andrew

=====
In a world without walls and fences, who needs windows and gates?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/


From sharpe at ns.aus.com  Thu Sep 21 22:09:27 2000
From: sharpe at ns.aus.com (Richard Sharpe)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 23:09:27 +0900
Subject: [plug] Samba query (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000921230927.009431c0@203.16.214.248>

At 07:13 PM 9/21/00 +1100, you wrote:
>I don't know enough about SMB to answer how W2k responds.
>
>Maybe Richard Sharpe who is a SMB expert can supply an answer?

I have seen this sort of thing happen with Win98 and perhaps Win2K when the
DHCP server is not available.

Because SMB over NetBIOS over TCP relies on TCP, and uses broadcasts or
WINS for address resolution and uses broadcasts for browsing functionality,
not much is likely to work if a client comes up in a different subnet to
the server.

There is a lot of material describing the actual protocols etc in Special
Edition, Using Samba, which may help to understand this stuff.

>Regards, Arie de Vries.
>08 9491 5193
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Leon Brooks 
>"de Vries, Arie" wrote:
>> I was only trying to help Kevin by pointing out the default behaviour of
>M$,
>> when a network interface was configured to 'Obtain an IP address
>> automatically' and there were problems with DHCP.
>
>You _are_ being helpful. All of this Windows bizarrity is useful stuff I
>didn't know before. Do you know if W2k responds normally in SMB when
>it's semi-configured like this?
>
>
>
>

Regards
-------
Richard Sharpe, sharpe at ns.aus.com
Samba (Team member, www.samba.org), Ethereal (Team member, www.zing.org)
Contributing author, SAMS Teach Yourself Samba in 24 Hours
Author, Special Edition, Using Samba




From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Thu Sep 21 22:07:46 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 22:07:46 +0800
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
References: <20000921133219.819.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003301c023d5$52447c00$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

Hi Andrew,

Yours is the only reply I've had, so thanks for the reply.
I did try a Sound Blaster PCI Vibra in the 5.2 machine, and although
sndconfig detected it and played sound through it, the stream did not seem
to want to work... :-(
Thank you for the suggestions....I'll search for some answers when I find
the time !

If you, or anybody on the list, wants to check the radio it's at
vk6ksj.javaradio.com
Thanks

Kai

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Furey" <simpware at yahoo.com>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder


> > linux kernel: Sound: DMA (input) timed out - IRQ/DRQ
> > config error?
>
> Hi Kai,
>
> I don't know if you've had any off-list help with
> this, but I didn't see any other replies, so here's my
> 2 cents worth.
>
> I've had the same problem on some other machines (not
> streaming, just general sound card use), so I went
> looking on the kernel mailing list archives about it.
>
> I recall seeing a post (sorry, don't have a URL) from
> Alan Cox, from a couple of years ago I think. He said
> something to the effect that this is a known Linux
> kernel problem, which only affects ISA sound cards.
>
> You might try using a PCI one, and see if that helps.
> I haven't had any problems with my current PCI card.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Andrew
>
> =====
> In a world without walls and fences, who needs windows and gates?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com/
>
>



From dagobah at mad.scientist.com  Thu Sep 21 22:25:22 2000
From: dagobah at mad.scientist.com (Bernard Blackham)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 22:25:22 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Mouse Pointer goes cazy
In-Reply-To: <39C956F1.8BFD1519@harvestroad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009212221030.27078-100000@bernard>

On Thu, 21 Sep 2000, Michael De Santis wrote:
> Using Redhat 6.2 with the KDE manager and every so often the mouse
> pointer decides to run amok and position itself in the top hand corner
> of the monitor. I usually have to wait a few seconds before it comes
> under control again. This also used to happen on previous version of
> Redhat and also under the Gnome desktop.
> 
> Does anybody knows what causing this and more importantly how to correct
> it ?

I have the same problem, well used to... I have a PS/2 IntelliEye explorer
(btw, does anyone know how to get them working in usbmouse in linux and
support all 7 buttons?). Previously, everytime i switched vt's from text
to X it'd freeze in the top corner like a Mouse Systems mouse tends to do
when it thinks its in PC mouse mode.... that was running gnome from under
gdm. I've since changed to starting X from the command line and use startx
(god knows why) and i havent had the problem since. This doesnt exactly
answer your question, it might be a workaround, but if anyone else can
shed some light on the mystery I'd be thankful too :)

Bernard.


-- 
 Bernard Blackham
 dagobah at mad.scientist.com





From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 21 22:39:27 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 22:39:27 +0800
Subject: [plug] Samba query (fwd)
References: <3.0.6.32.20000921230927.009431c0@203.16.214.248>
Message-ID: <39CA1D9F.97593F8F@brooks.smileys.net>

Richard Sharpe wrote:
> At 07:13 PM 9/21/00 +1100, Arie wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>> Do you know if W2k responds normally in SMB when
>>> it's semi-configured like this?

>> I don't know enough about SMB to answer how W2k responds.

>> Maybe Richard Sharpe who is a SMB expert can supply an answer?

> Because SMB over NetBIOS over TCP relies on TCP, and uses broadcasts or
> WINS for address resolution and uses broadcasts for browsing functionality,
> not much is likely to work if a client comes up in a different subnet to
> the server.

Hokay, to bring back a little context and exactitude to the question...

IF I do something like:

    ifconfig eth0:0 169.254.0.1 netmask 255.255.0.0 broadcast 169.254.255.255 up

AND add the appropriate matching definition in /etc/smb.conf

AND do something this regularly (doing a tcpdump scan might be better):

    for borg in $(nmblookup '*' | gawk '{ print $1 }'); do
        nmblookup -A $borg >>borgscan-$borg.log
    done

...will the files borgscan-*.log occasionally contain details from any
randomly-dispersed DHCP-addicted Win2k machines?

-- 
How can you expect a computer to act sanely when you give it such
conflicting orders? You want it to work, and you want it to run
Windows. -- Alan Shutko


From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Thu Sep 21 22:41:00 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 22:41:00 +0800
Subject: [plug] SCSI CDR/CDRW advice needed [followup]
In-Reply-To: <20000921160436.C26261@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>; from jason@mindsocket.com.au on Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 04:04:36PM +0800
References: <20000921160436.C26261@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>
Message-ID: <20000921224100.F26261@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm sort of leaning towards the Sony CRX145SBK 10x/4x/32x (wowzers!). No one
seemed to mention Sony units, is this just by chance or should I be wary?



Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Thu Sep 21 23:00:19 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 23:00:19 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] /etc/bashrc
In-Reply-To: <39C9F614.8AD03819@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000921224124.6668n-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Thu, 21 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:

> > I've got a few entries in /etc/bashrc, I was hoping that this would set

> Did you export them? <waves at MattK>

<waves back>
 
The other thing to look out for, is that /etc/bashrc may not be run
always by every shell.

Shell rc files, and which ones are read at what time, is akin to black
magic, and the man page (at least the one I have) doesn't mention
/etc/bashrc at all.

.bash_profile in your home directory is read only when you first log in
(assuming your login shell is bash) and .bashrc is only read if you are
running another copy of bash from within your login shell.

similarly /etc/profile is read only by login shells, so it follows from
there that /etc/bashrc is only read by non-login shells (though again my
manpage doesn't say that)

My suggestion is to add it to /etc/bashrc, and then edit /etc/profile so
that it includes /etc/bashrc by adding the line:

source /etc/bashrc

which can be shortened to:

. /etc/bashrc

 - Matt



From dagobah at mad.scientist.com  Thu Sep 21 23:16:31 2000
From: dagobah at mad.scientist.com (Bernard Blackham)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 23:16:31 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] /etc/bashrc
In-Reply-To: <39C9D707.CA8A6435@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009212314040.27078-100000@bernard>

Oli,

Anything environment related like env vars should be set in
/etc/profile. (well it does under the two systems i've ever worked
with...)

Hope this helps!

Bernard.
-- 
 Bernard Blackham
 dagobah at mad.scientist.com

On Thu, 21 Sep 2000, Oliver White wrote:

> I've got a few entries in /etc/bashrc, I was hoping that this would set
> up my environment whenever I open a shell... but it doesn't. What file
> should I be placing these entries in (CLASSPATH, etc).
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Oli White
> 
> 



From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Fri Sep 22 00:02:05 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 00:02:05 +0800
Subject: [plug] /etc/bashrc
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009212314040.27078-100000@bernard>
Message-ID: <006c01c023e5$49eb1540$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

'tis me again,
I am not much of a boffin when it comes to Linux, I just know the basics -
that should change once I finish Uni ! :-)
What I would like to know is how to get, for example, Netscape 4.73 to work
by typing "netscape &" at the prompt.
I know you gotta edit the profile or something to that effect (one file
that's got the same effect on Windows as autoexec.bat with it's file and
pathnames) but I am not sure how it's done or what file.

Would it be like this?
$netscape=/usr/local/netscape473/netscape
or am I going the wrong way?

Having said that, I expect a heap of sarcasm to follow the next post,
hahahahaaa

Any help is greatly appreciated !

/Kai

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bernard Blackham" <dagobah at mad.scientist.com>
To: "PLUG" <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [plug] /etc/bashrc


> Oli,
>
> Anything environment related like env vars should be set in
> /etc/profile. (well it does under the two systems i've ever worked
> with...)
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Bernard.
> --
>  Bernard Blackham
>  dagobah at mad.scientist.com
>
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2000, Oliver White wrote:
>
> > I've got a few entries in /etc/bashrc, I was hoping that this would set
> > up my environment whenever I open a shell... but it doesn't. What file
> > should I be placing these entries in (CLASSPATH, etc).
> >
> > TIA,
> >
> > Oli White
> >
> >
>
>
>



From dennisp at tiwest.com.au  Fri Sep 22 07:49:21 2000
From: dennisp at tiwest.com.au (Dennis Plester)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 07:49:21 +0800
Subject: [plug] SCSI CDR/CDRW advice needed [followup]
Message-ID: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6344@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>

I have a mate with the Sony. It's a beaut unit, fast and effective, but his
experience is only in Windows unfortunately.

Do you only want to operate this thing in Linux? If you have are planning to
run dual boot with Windoze, and use it for some burning in that
"environment" (I use the term loosely), there are advantages in having an
IDE burner. Sure it causes additional hassles in Linux, but there are ways
around that, and there are certain burning programs in Windows that can
reproduce most forms of CD copy protection, but only with common, cheap as
chips IDE burners. (one such program is CD-Clone, and the other is Blind
Read.)

I am not condoning piracy, I'm only saying that it sucks when you fork out
good money for something, and you can't back it up. My two year old daughter
loves her educational CD ROMS, for using in our computer AND for drawing on!

Clearly, if you only call is to Linux, SCSI all the way.

Dennis.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Jason Nicholls [SMTP:jason at mindsocket.com.au]
	Sent:	Thursday, 21 September 2000 22:35
	To:	plug at plug.linux.org.au
	Subject:	Re: [plug] SCSI CDR/CDRW advice needed [followup]

	Thanks for the feedback.

	I'm sort of leaning towards the Sony CRX145SBK 10x/4x/32x
(wowzers!). No one
	seemed to mention Sony units, is this just by chance or should I be
wary?



	Later,

	Jason Nicholls
	--------------------------------------------------------------------
	Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
	Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
	Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
	--------------------------------------------------------------------


From dennisp at tiwest.com.au  Fri Sep 22 08:04:03 2000
From: dennisp at tiwest.com.au (Dennis Plester)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 08:04:03 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mouse Pointer goes cazy
Message-ID: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6345@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>

I have the same problem with my Intellieye mouse too (plain version, not the
chunky 7 button extravaganza). I'm sure it's an optical mouse problem as I
can sometimes get a "pause" when using it in Win98 during heavy mouse
activity. It's almost like the mouse doesn't keep up with my hand movements.
In Linux, it has misbehaved in Redhat 6.1, 6.2 and Mandrake 7.1 in KDE and
GNOME, but instead of a "momentary lapse of reason" seen in Win98, it
behaves more like your description. 

It is only ever a brief occurrence (maybe half a second), and happens maybe
once very few hours, so I live with it. It seems to mainly happen during a
period of rapid windows opening/closing with simultaneous mouse activity,
but I can't consistently reproduce it.

I'm still using my mouse via PS/2, but have thought about trying it with USB
instead. I just haven't got around to it...

Dennis.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Bernard Blackham [SMTP:dagobah at mad.scientist.com]
	Sent:	Thursday, 21 September 2000 22:18
	To:	plug at plug.linux.org.au
	Subject:	Re: [plug] Mouse Pointer goes cazy

	On Thu, 21 Sep 2000, Michael De Santis wrote:
	> Using Redhat 6.2 with the KDE manager and every so often the mouse
	> pointer decides to run amok and position itself in the top hand
corner
	> of the monitor. I usually have to wait a few seconds before it
comes
	> under control again. This also used to happen on previous version
of
	> Redhat and also under the Gnome desktop.
	> 
	> Does anybody knows what causing this and more importantly how to
correct
	> it ?

	I have the same problem, well used to... I have a PS/2 IntelliEye
explorer
	(btw, does anyone know how to get them working in usbmouse in linux
and
	support all 7 buttons?). Previously, everytime i switched vt's from
text
	to X it'd freeze in the top corner like a Mouse Systems mouse tends
to do
	when it thinks its in PC mouse mode.... that was running gnome from
under
	gdm. I've since changed to starting X from the command line and use
startx
	(god knows why) and i havent had the problem since. This doesnt
exactly
	answer your question, it might be a workaround, but if anyone else
can
	shed some light on the mystery I'd be thankful too :)

	Bernard.


	-- 
	 Bernard Blackham
	 dagobah at mad.scientist.com


	


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Fri Sep 22 09:28:16 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:28:16 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] /etc/bashrc
In-Reply-To: <006c01c023e5$49eb1540$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000922092511.6668q-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Kai wrote:

> What I would like to know is how to get, for example, Netscape 4.73 to work
> by typing "netscape &" at the prompt.
> I know you gotta edit the profile or something to that effect (one file
> that's got the same effect on Windows as autoexec.bat with it's file and
> pathnames) but I am not sure how it's done or what file.

See my previous message in this thread for an idea of which file does
what.

> $netscape=/usr/local/netscape473/netscape

You're thinking of:

alias netscape=/usr/local/netscape473/netscape

although personally I prefer to just do

ln -s /usr/local/netscape473/netscape /usr/local/bin/netscape

from the command line, making a symbolic link to netscape in
/usr/local/bin

Then just ensure /usr/local/bin/ is in your PATH

You may need to add the line:

export PATH=/usr/local/bin:$PATH

to your /etc/profile and/or /etc/bashrc

 - Matt



From zombie at wasp.net.au  Fri Sep 22 09:34:46 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:34:46 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] SCSI CDR/CDRW advice needed [followup]
In-Reply-To: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6344@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000922092827.6668r-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Dennis Plester wrote:

> Do you only want to operate this thing in Linux? If you have are planning to
> run dual boot with Windoze, and use it for some burning in that
> "environment" (I use the term loosely), there are advantages in having an
> IDE burner.

In my (ok somewhat limited) experience with Windoze, it is advantageous to
use a SCSI writer, because the IDE writers are too easy to interrupt (by
eg, moving the mouse)

> Sure it causes additional hassles in Linux, but there are ways
> around that

It's not that much of a hassle really, and instructions to make an IDE
writer do it's stuff under Linux has been posted to this list at least
once, and with the difference in price between IDE and SCSI I don't see
why you would want to get a SCSI writer, unless you've got more than 2
other IDE devices already - because the writer really ought to be on an
IDE channel by itself.

CD writing is also much more stable under Linux - you don't need to worry
as much about interrupting it, even when using an IDE writer.
You'll be able to see several IDE writers in action on Sunday, if you're
coming along to the Installfest

 - Matt



From richss128 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 22 10:19:00 2000
From: richss128 at yahoo.com (Richard Strickland)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:19:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [plug] Kde and X 4.0.1 problems
Message-ID: <20000922021900.39246.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi.  I have recently installed Xfree86 4.0.1
I deleted my old installation of Xfree86 3.3.5
deleting /usr/X11R6 and /etc/X11, and then
followed the new installation install method.

Basically every thing works but I'm stuck with
twm. when i try to start kde it gives errors
about not be able to find the display.

Thanks


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/


From brad at seme.com.au  Fri Sep 22 10:29:29 2000
From: brad at seme.com.au (Brad Campbell)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:29:29 +0800
Subject: [plug] Installfest Details
References: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6345@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>
Message-ID: <39CAC409.87DE55A6@seme.com.au>

As I don't pick up this email addr after 5 on Fridays, and I'm out all
day tommorow bashing thru the hills in a rally car, can you tell
me what time I need to be at Canning College on Sunday morning..
Given it's open to the public at 10 ?

I believe from previous discussions, I'm bringing
A server with Potato, for http, ftp and nfs installs..
My work linux PC, with cd burner in it, for both Demos and burning ISO's
My m68k Mac for a useless linux demo.. Although you can play xdigger on it,
albeit slowly.
My Laptop, which is in daily use running potato, for another demo system.
Anything Else I need to bring? Besides power-boards and extension leads ?


I have about 4 gig free on the server too, in case you want to put another
distro on there, Or I could delete some recoverable files on there and recover
about 10 gig for any other use..

All machines are running 100BaseT as well.. 

--
Brad....
                   /"\
Save the Forests   \ /     ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
Burn a Greenie.     X      AGAINST HTML MAIL
                   / \


From brad at seme.com.au  Fri Sep 22 11:06:58 2000
From: brad at seme.com.au (Brad Campbell)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:06:58 +0800
Subject: [plug] test please ignore
References: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6345@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au> <39CAC409.87DE55A6@seme.com.au>
Message-ID: <39CACCD2.E1BE915F@seme.com.au>

test


From lenbird at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 22 23:25:52 2000
From: lenbird at iinet.net.au (Len Bird)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:25:52 -0400
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
References: <20000921133219.819.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <39CB7A00.8F4039E@iinet.net.au>

I had a lot of trouble with an Ensonic  PCI Sound Card. In my case the
solution is to be found in the BIOS setup
By default the BIOS does not always accept the IRQ setup, in fact
usually the PCI/??? is disabled. You
will need to know which IRQ the Sound card uses in my case it was IRQ-9
, but this can vary. Whatever
enable the PCI support part of your BIOS and of course the appropriate
IRQ. This works for RedHat 6.2
I cannot vouch for other distros, but it is worth a try.  The main
problem is that ALL of the Hardware
you get is designed to pander to M$ by default, and you often have to
change the BIOS setups for other
O/Systems.

I would appreciate knowing if this solves your problem,

Regards,  Len Bird


Andrew Furey wrote:

> > linux kernel: Sound: DMA (input) timed out - IRQ/DRQ
> > config error?
>
> Hi Kai,
>
> I don't know if you've had any off-list help with
> this, but I didn't see any other replies, so here's my
> 2 cents worth.
>
> I've had the same problem on some other machines (not
> streaming, just general sound card use), so I went
> looking on the kernel mailing list archives about it.
>
> I recall seeing a post (sorry, don't have a URL) from
> Alan Cox, from a couple of years ago I think. He said
> something to the effect that this is a known Linux
> kernel problem, which only affects ISA sound cards.
>
> You might try using a PCI one, and see if that helps.
> I haven't had any problems with my current PCI card.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Andrew
>
> =====
> In a world without walls and fences, who needs windows and gates?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com/



From Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au  Fri Sep 22 11:18:30 2000
From: Jeremy at Malcolm.wattle.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:18:30 +0800
Subject: [plug] Kde and X 4.0.1 problems
References: <20000922021900.39246.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c02443$c99b97c0$818010ac@terminus>

How are you starting it, from an xterm?  Type "set | grep DISPLAY" and tell
us what it says.  I am running KDE with XFree 4 with no problems.





From ojw at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 22 11:26:20 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 03:26:20 +0000
Subject: [plug] test please ignore
References: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6345@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au> <39CAC409.87DE55A6@seme.com.au> <39CACCD2.E1BE915F@seme.com.au>
Message-ID: <39CAD15C.BD7B3711@iinet.net.au>

Brad Campbell wrote:

> test

I can never bring myself to ignore messages like these... I always
wonder what I'm missing.

--
Oliver White



From tony at cantech.net.au  Fri Sep 22 11:26:52 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:26:52 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Installfest Details
In-Reply-To: <39CAC409.87DE55A6@seme.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009221125480.8706-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Brad Campbell wrote:

> As I don't pick up this email addr after 5 on Fridays, and I'm out all
> day tommorow bashing thru the hills in a rally car, can you tell
> me what time I need to be at Canning College on Sunday morning..
> Given it's open to the public at 10 ?


09:00am   would be great .... that way everything will be "working" by 10:00am
> 
> I believe from previous discussions, I'm bringing
> A server with Potato, for http, ftp and nfs installs..
> My work linux PC, with cd burner in it, for both Demos and burning ISO's
> My m68k Mac for a useless linux demo.. Although you can play xdigger on it,
> albeit slowly.
> My Laptop, which is in daily use running potato, for another demo system.
> Anything Else I need to bring? Besides power-boards and extension leads ?

Nup thats it .... they all sound great.


Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From brad at seme.com.au  Fri Sep 22 11:19:48 2000
From: brad at seme.com.au (Brad Campbell)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:19:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] test please ignore
References: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6345@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au> <39CAC409.87DE55A6@seme.com.au> <39CACCD2.E1BE915F@seme.com.au> <39CAD15C.BD7B3711@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39CACFD4.6BCA2E44@seme.com.au>

Oliver White wrote:
> 
> Brad Campbell wrote:
> 
> > test
> 
> I can never bring myself to ignore messages like these... I always
> wonder what I'm missing.
> 
> --
> Oliver White

Only me testing my .fetchmailrc config for a multi-drop mailbox..
I used to filter on the X-Envelope-To Messages that iiNets mailserver
used to consistently insert into my headers, but recently, that header
has become somewhat intermittent, so Matt suggested I filter on the
Delivered-To: header.. which was a good idea, bar the fact I mis-typed
it in my fetchmailrc file, and found I was filtering on the To: header
instead, due to fetchmail not being able to find a
"Delivered To:" header...
so I was using the plug mailing list to test my delivery went to the right
place.. and did not bounce back to Matt, as it has probably been doing for
weeks..

-- 
Brad....
                   /"\
Save the Forests   \ /     ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
Burn a Greenie.     X      AGAINST HTML MAIL
                   / \


From ojw at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 22 11:31:56 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 03:31:56 +0000
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
References: <20000921133219.819.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com> <39CB7A00.8F4039E@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39CAD2AB.53F42437@iinet.net.au>

Len Bird wrote:

> I had a lot of trouble with an Ensonic  PCI Sound Card.

Bloody Vibras.

--
Oliver White



From dennisp at tiwest.com.au  Fri Sep 22 11:39:25 2000
From: dennisp at tiwest.com.au (Dennis Plester)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:39:25 +0800
Subject: [plug] PCI soundcards
Message-ID: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6347@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>

Along a similar vein to some previous posts (PCI sound cards and IDE
burners)...

I'm fairly new to the Linux scene having only been using it regularly on my
home PC since the beginning of the year. Of the distributions I've tried so
far, Corel 1.0, Red Hat 6.1, Red Hat 6.2 and lately, Mandrake 7.1, Mandrake
was the only one that successfully detected and configured my PCI
SoundBlaster Live card without my intervention. The fact that it also
detected and correctly set up my el cheapo IDE Mitsumi CDRW was an added
bonus. I always managed to get this gear running on the others, but only
after further downloading and/or kernel recompiles... Something that can be
a stretch for a newbie, but I can now do without too much thought.

Are there any downsides to Mandrake for a "typical" home user, apart from
being slightly off the pace with some of the included application versions?
I've heard some people say its buggy, but I haven't seen this side of it
yet...

Thanks in advance

Dennis.

If at first you don't succeed, maybe trying turning on the power this
time...


From david.j.campbell at honeywell.com  Fri Sep 22 11:42:41 2000
From: david.j.campbell at honeywell.com (Campbell, David (Ex AS17))
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:42:41 +1100
Subject: [plug] Future meeting topics?
Message-ID: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183155B@HPACAS17002>

Does anyone have any idea of the meeting topics for the meeting on the 10th
Oct? (or is that too far into the future?)

David Campbell


From tony at cantech.net.au  Fri Sep 22 11:51:17 2000
From: tony at cantech.net.au (Anthony J. Breeds-Taurima)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:51:17 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Future meeting topics?
In-Reply-To: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183155B@HPACAS17002>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009221150430.8706-100000@thor.cantech.net.au>

On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Campbell, David (Ex AS17) wrote:

> Does anyone have any idea of the meeting topics for the meeting on the 10th
> Oct? (or is that too far into the future?)


David youre back :) ..... I'm waiting for replies to my requests .... if they
fail I'll try other things.

Yours Tony.

/*
 * "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the 
 * same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 * --Albert Einstein
 */



From lenbird at iinet.net.au  Sat Sep 23 00:15:08 2000
From: lenbird at iinet.net.au (Len Bird)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 12:15:08 -0400
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
References: <20000921133219.819.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com> <39CB7A00.8F4039E@iinet.net.au> <39CAD2AB.53F42437@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39CB858C.87B3D793@iinet.net.au>

Oliver White wrote:

> Len Bird wrote:
>
> > I had a lot of trouble with an Ensonic  PCI Sound Card.
>
> Bloody Vibras.
>
> --
> Oliver White

Yes I concur. Actually you would be much better off with a Soundblaster
16 Pro-----but they do
not make them any more.  Does anyone know of a simple Sound Card that
works in all flavours
of Linux?   Various dealers make extravagant claims for ISA Sound Cards
with telephone numbers
for a price,  but none of them will give any guarantee about performance
in anything other than
Windoze.

Len Bird



From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Fri Sep 22 13:06:07 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:06:07 +0800
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
In-Reply-To: <39CB858C.87B3D793@iinet.net.au>; from lenbird@iinet.net.au on Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 12:15:08PM -0400
References: <20000921133219.819.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com> <39CB7A00.8F4039E@iinet.net.au> <39CAD2AB.53F42437@iinet.net.au> <39CB858C.87B3D793@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000922130607.P26261@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

G'day,

On Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 12:15:08PM -0400, Len Bird wrote:
> Yes I concur. Actually you would be much better off with a Soundblaster
> 16 Pro-----but they do
> not make them any more.  Does anyone know of a simple Sound Card that
> works in all flavours
> of Linux?   Various dealers make extravagant claims for ISA Sound Cards
> with telephone numbers
> for a price,  but none of them will give any guarantee about performance
> in anything other than
> Windoze.

I've never had any problems with the AWE64 Gold I have in my main system,
the SB16 in my secondary system, or the really crappy crystal chipset thing
in my laptop (although I need to rmmod and modprobe if I go into suspend
mode).

Then again, i've never really done much input audio streaming (or recording)
on any of the systems. I listen to music all day though ;)




Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au  Fri Sep 22 13:31:58 2000
From: nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Bannon)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:31:58 +0800
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
In-Reply-To: <39CB858C.87B3D793@iinet.net.au>; from lenbird@iinet.net.au on Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 12:15:08PM -0400
References: <20000921133219.819.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com> <39CB7A00.8F4039E@iinet.net.au> <39CAD2AB.53F42437@iinet.net.au> <39CB858C.87B3D793@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000922133158.D169965@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>

On Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 12:15:08PM -0400, Len Bird wrote:
[...]
> > > I had a lot of trouble with an Ensonic  PCI Sound Card.
[...]
> Does anyone know of a simple Sound Card that works in all
> flavours of Linux?   Various dealers make extravagant claims
[...]

I must say, my Creative PCI64 (Ensoniq AudioPCI 1370) was cheap
and worked flawlessly... Both ALSA and the es1370 kernel module
worked first time.

I'm having a little trouble getting an ES1868 ISA card to work
though - I've had a similar system working once before but this
one won't. pnpdump lists the _other_ two ISA cards in the machine
(a 3Com 3c509B and a DiamondVoice internal modem <hawk><spit>).
Win98SE detects and uses all three...

Nick.

-- 
  Nick Bannon  | "I made this letter longer than usual because
nick at it.net.au | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 22 14:09:09 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:09:09 +0800
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
References: <20000921133219.819.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com> <39CB7A00.8F4039E@iinet.net.au> <39CAD2AB.53F42437@iinet.net.au> <39CB858C.87B3D793@iinet.net.au> <20000922133158.D169965@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <39CAF785.7064A6EF@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Nick Bannon wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 12:15:08PM -0400, Len Bird wrote:
> [...]
> > > > I had a lot of trouble with an Ensonic  PCI Sound Card.
> [...]
> > Does anyone know of a simple Sound Card that works in all
> > flavours of Linux?   Various dealers make extravagant claims
> [...]
> 
> I must say, my Creative PCI64 (Ensoniq AudioPCI 1370) was cheap
> and worked flawlessly... Both ALSA and the es1370 kernel module
> worked first time.
> 
> I'm having a little trouble getting an ES1868 ISA card to work
> though - I've had a similar system working once before but this
> one won't. pnpdump lists the _other_ two ISA cards in the machine
> (a 3Com 3c509B and a DiamondVoice internal modem <hawk><spit>).
> Win98SE detects and uses all three...
> 
> Nick.
> 
> --
>   Nick Bannon  | "I made this letter longer than usual because
> nick at it.net.au | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal

I have something like that; an ESS 1868 card, I think; though I
understood mine was PCI. When I got the computer, with just Win95, the
sound card worked, without any problems, but, after about the second
reinstall, getting the driver working got increasingly more difficult,
and, when I put Win98 on the system, the sound card worked for the first
couple of installations, then didn't seem to work again, until the
Nuts&Bolts test made it work, and, one website that I visited, got it to
work. It has never worked with RH 5.2, so I just, more or less, gave up
on having a working sound card.

Needless to say, with all the trouble that I have had with trying to get
drivers for the card, trying to contact the company, etc, I would not
get another ESS soundcard.

I understood that the best thing to do, was to get a basic
Soundblaster16 card, as they were virtually the standard, and any OS
that had sound capability, was sure to have a driver for them. But, from
what I understand, 16 bit sound has gone the same way as black and white
television, just a step on the way, that has come and gone.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Fri Sep 22 14:17:26 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:17:26 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
In-Reply-To: <39CAF785.7064A6EF@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000922141636.6668t-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> I have something like that; an ESS 1868 card, I think; though I

The ESS 1868 is 100% SB16 compatible
I had one in my home machine, worked flawlessly under Linux from the
beginning - just compile in the sb16 driver.

 - Matt




From nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au  Fri Sep 22 14:32:29 2000
From: nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Bannon)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:32:29 +0800
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
In-Reply-To: <39CAF785.7064A6EF@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 02:09:09PM +0800
References: <20000921133219.819.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com> <39CB7A00.8F4039E@iinet.net.au> <39CAD2AB.53F42437@iinet.net.au> <39CB858C.87B3D793@iinet.net.au> <20000922133158.D169965@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <39CAF785.7064A6EF@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000922143229.G169965@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>

On Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 02:09:09PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
[...]
> that had sound capability, was sure to have a driver for them. But, from
> what I understand, 16 bit sound has gone the same way as black and white
> television, just a step on the way, that has come and gone.

16 bit sound is very much the norm, though when doing sound
processing inside a DSP you might use 24 bit to preserve accuracy.

Alternatives are mostly 8 bit (linear is a bit sucky, log, ie mu-law
or a-law is perfectly decent) or 1 bit (the PC speaker...).

This has nothing to do with the bus the card is on, or how many
"voices" it can play at once, or anything like that, which is where
the 32/64/96/128 and so on numbers you might see come from.

We've reached the point where 16 bit stereo sound is a very cheap
and perfectly decent standard and the possible improvements (3D
sound processors or 5.1 Dolby, etc) are optional fluff.

Nick.

-- 
  Nick Bannon  | "I made this letter longer than usual because
nick at it.net.au | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 22 14:46:13 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:46:13 +0800
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
References: <20000921133219.819.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com> <39CB7A00.8F4039E@iinet.net.au> <39CAD2AB.53F42437@iinet.net.au> <39CB858C.87B3D793@iinet.net.au> <20000922133158.D169965@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <39CAF785.7064A6EF@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000922143229.G169965@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <39CB0035.9E77639A@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Nick Bannon wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 02:09:09PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> [...]
> > that had sound capability, was sure to have a driver for them. But, from
> > what I understand, 16 bit sound has gone the same way as black and white
> > television, just a step on the way, that has come and gone.
> 
> 16 bit sound is very much the norm, though when doing sound
> processing inside a DSP you might use 24 bit to preserve accuracy.
> 
> Alternatives are mostly 8 bit (linear is a bit sucky, log, ie mu-law
> or a-law is perfectly decent) or 1 bit (the PC speaker...).
> 
> This has nothing to do with the bus the card is on, or how many
> "voices" it can play at once, or anything like that, which is where
> the 32/64/96/128 and so on numbers you might see come from.
> 
> We've reached the point where 16 bit stereo sound is a very cheap
> and perfectly decent standard and the possible improvements (3D
> sound processors or 5.1 Dolby, etc) are optional fluff.
> 
> Nick.
> 
> --
>   Nick Bannon  | "I made this letter longer than usual because
> nick at it.net.au | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal

I stand corrected.

I understood that the 32/64/... were the number of bits; eg SB128 was a
128 bit sound card, suitable for very high fidelity, digital sound.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Fri Sep 22 15:14:13 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 15:14:13 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
In-Reply-To: <39CB0035.9E77639A@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000922151148.6668u-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> I understood that the 32/64/... were the number of bits; eg SB128 was a
> 128 bit sound card, suitable for very high fidelity, digital sound.

That's a very misconception, but I guess it's because it's a marketing
thing - make a big fanfare about how the SB16 is 16bit sound, and then
start advertising a SB32 etc and say nothing about the fact it's still
only 16 bits

anyway, I upgraded my SB16 to a SB128 PCI, decided the sound quality was
actually _worse_, so sold that too, and bought another SB16.

A SBLiVE would be nice though

 - Matt(Lies, Damn Lies and Marketing)



From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Fri Sep 22 17:00:08 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:00:08 +0800
Subject: [plug] /etc/bashrc
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000922092511.6668q-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <006801c02473$8223d800$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

Thanks heaps for the help Matt.
I'll give that a go and see how I go !!

Kai

BTW: have any of you seen or looked at a mag called Linux Format?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Kemner" <zombie at wasp.net.au>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [plug] /etc/bashrc


> On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Kai wrote:
>
> > What I would like to know is how to get, for example, Netscape 4.73 to
work
> > by typing "netscape &" at the prompt.
> > I know you gotta edit the profile or something to that effect (one file
> > that's got the same effect on Windows as autoexec.bat with it's file and
> > pathnames) but I am not sure how it's done or what file.
>
> See my previous message in this thread for an idea of which file does
> what.
>
> > $netscape=/usr/local/netscape473/netscape
>
> You're thinking of:
>
> alias netscape=/usr/local/netscape473/netscape
>
> although personally I prefer to just do
>
> ln -s /usr/local/netscape473/netscape /usr/local/bin/netscape
>
> from the command line, making a symbolic link to netscape in
> /usr/local/bin
>
> Then just ensure /usr/local/bin/ is in your PATH
>
> You may need to add the line:
>
> export PATH=/usr/local/bin:$PATH
>
> to your /etc/profile and/or /etc/bashrc
>
>  - Matt
>
>
>



From ojw at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 22 17:37:05 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:37:05 +0000
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
References: <20000921133219.819.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com> <39CB7A00.8F4039E@iinet.net.au> <39CAD2AB.53F42437@iinet.net.au> <39CB858C.87B3D793@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39CB2841.C050BEE4@iinet.net.au>

Len Bird wrote:

> Oliver White wrote:
>
> > Bloody Vibras.
>
> Yes I concur. Actually you would be much better off with a Soundblaster
> 16 Pro-----but they do
> not make them any more.

The really annoying thing is that I had to get rid of my SB16 ISA card,
which worked perfectly, when I upgraded the motherboard (PCI only). What a
waste.

--
Oliver White



From alanh at wn.com.au  Fri Sep 22 18:34:35 2000
From: alanh at wn.com.au (alan howard)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 18:34:35 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mouse Pointer goes cazy
In-Reply-To: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6345@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>
References: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6345@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>
Message-ID: <00092218380700.00338@localhost.localdomain>

I also get a simmilar problem using a genius net mouse pro. (ps/2) it seams to
be related to hard disc activity. it did not use to do it when i was using the
com port ( with adaptor) , but only since i moved it to the ps/2 socket.

regards
alan howard



On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Dennis Plester wrote:
> I have the same problem with my Intellieye mouse too (plain version, not the
> chunky 7 button extravaganza). I'm sure it's an optical mouse problem as I
> can sometimes get a "pause" when using it in Win98 during heavy mouse
> activity. It's almost like the mouse doesn't keep up with my hand movements.
> In Linux, it has misbehaved in Redhat 6.1, 6.2 and Mandrake 7.1 in KDE and
> GNOME, but instead of a "momentary lapse of reason" seen in Win98, it
> behaves more like your description. 
> 
> It is only ever a brief occurrence (maybe half a second), and happens maybe
> once very few hours, so I live with it. It seems to mainly happen during a
> period of rapid windows opening/closing with simultaneous mouse activity,
> but I can't consistently reproduce it.
> 
> I'm still using my mouse via PS/2, but have thought about trying it with USB
> instead. I just haven't got around to it...
> 
 


From alanh at wn.com.au  Fri Sep 22 19:09:28 2000
From: alanh at wn.com.au (alan howard)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 19:09:28 +0800
Subject: [plug] linux format mag
In-Reply-To: <006801c02473$8223d800$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000922092511.6668q-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <006801c02473$8223d800$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>
Message-ID: <00092219154001.00338@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Kai wrote:
 
<snip>
> BTW: have any of you seen or looked at a mag called Linux Format?
 
yes. Its where i first found out plug existed.!!!!!!
It has the web site listed.
Its a bit pricey though, about $14- $15 but not to bad  for what it contains
and the distro's that usually come with it.

regards
alan howard.


From kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au  Fri Sep 22 19:05:52 2000
From: kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au (Beau Kuiper)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 19:05:52 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000922151148.6668u-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009221900240.19970-100000@ark.cs.curtin.edu.au>

On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Matt Kemner wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > I understood that the 32/64/... were the number of bits; eg SB128 was a
> > 128 bit sound card, suitable for very high fidelity, digital sound.
> 
> That's a very misconception, but I guess it's because it's a marketing
> thing - make a big fanfare about how the SB16 is 16bit sound, and then
> start advertising a SB32 etc and say nothing about the fact it's still
> only 16 bits
> 
> anyway, I upgraded my SB16 to a SB128 PCI, decided the sound quality was
> actually _worse_, so sold that too, and bought another SB16.
> 
> A SBLiVE would be nice though

sblive is very nice :-) Makes me want better speakers all the time. You
can get OEM versions of the sblive value fairly cheaply ($120 or less). 
They work fine under linux.

Beau Kuiperba
kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au

> 
>  - Matt(Lies, Damn Lies and Marketing)
> 
> 
> 



From gavan at mindless.com  Fri Sep 22 22:15:44 2000
From: gavan at mindless.com (Gavan Blunt)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 22:15:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] XMMS
Message-ID: <00092222154400.01003@localhost.localdomain>

On my RH6.2 machine, I'm having lots of probs with xmms.  Since installing 
helix gnome 1.2, it suffers from lots of skips, keeps intermittently 
fading/zooming volume to either left or right, terrible performance when 
anything else is reading from disk, and just generally giving me the irrits.  
I've just upgraded to the latest version of xmms and the problem seems to 
have been slightly reduced, but hasn't gone away completely.  Does anyone 
have any ideas on what may be wrong (other than the fact that I'm running 
gnome 1.2 on a P166/64MB machine)?

Gavan Blunt


From kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au  Fri Sep 22 22:43:27 2000
From: kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au (Beau Kuiper)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 22:43:27 +0800
Subject: [plug] XMMS
In-Reply-To: <00092222154400.01003@localhost.localdomain>
References: <00092222154400.01003@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <00092222470500.00282@darkstar>

On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Gavan Blunt wrote:
> On my RH6.2 machine, I'm having lots of probs with xmms.  Since installing 
> helix gnome 1.2, it suffers from lots of skips, keeps intermittently 
> fading/zooming volume to either left or right, terrible performance when 
> anything else is reading from disk, and just generally giving me the irrits.  
> I've just upgraded to the latest version of xmms and the problem seems to 
> have been slightly reduced, but hasn't gone away completely.  Does anyone 
> have any ideas on what may be wrong (other than the fact that I'm running 
> gnome 1.2 on a P166/64MB machine)?

Hmmm, apart from running the new gnome (does your machine swap a lot, what is
the load top gives you), you can try:

1) removing ~/.xmms/config. XMMS's default settings are quite good for
buffering, and playing around with them may mess them up.

2) fiddlinging with the mp3 buffer sizes.

3) worse case, apply the low latency patches for linux, and recompile your
kernel.

Beau Kuiper
kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au


From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Fri Sep 22 23:07:00 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 23:07:00 +0800
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
References: <20000921133219.819.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com> <39CB7A00.8F4039E@iinet.net.au> <39CAD2AB.53F42437@iinet.net.au> <39CB858C.87B3D793@iinet.net.au> <20000922133158.D169965@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <000301c024a9$5cc41080$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

Hi Nick,
I just checked and it looks like I've got the same card you do !
ESS1868 Audio Drive although isapnpdump|more shows it as "Vendor ID ESS0968,
Serial 1291845632...."
Have you had any luck getting yours to work without fault?
Would you, or anyone on the list, know of a card that's available today
which I can use that will work no worries?

The Radio server is currently running 5.2 but it's moving to another machine
which has 6.2 in about 2 or 3 weeks.
Which cards do you (or anyone) know of that work goo don 6.2?

Cheers!

Kai

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Bannon" <nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder


> On Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 12:15:08PM -0400, Len Bird wrote:
> [...]
> > > > I had a lot of trouble with an Ensonic  PCI Sound Card.
> [...]
> > Does anyone know of a simple Sound Card that works in all
> > flavours of Linux?   Various dealers make extravagant claims
> [...]
>
> I must say, my Creative PCI64 (Ensoniq AudioPCI 1370) was cheap
> and worked flawlessly... Both ALSA and the es1370 kernel module
> worked first time.
>
> I'm having a little trouble getting an ES1868 ISA card to work
> though - I've had a similar system working once before but this
> one won't. pnpdump lists the _other_ two ISA cards in the machine
> (a 3Com 3c509B and a DiamondVoice internal modem <hawk><spit>).
> Win98SE detects and uses all three...
>
> Nick.
>
> --
>   Nick Bannon  | "I made this letter longer than usual because
> nick at it.net.au | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal
>
>



From kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au  Sat Sep 23 02:41:57 2000
From: kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au (Beau Kuiper)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 02:41:57 +0800
Subject: [plug] ESS Audio Card and Real Encoder
In-Reply-To: <000301c024a9$5cc41080$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>
References: <20000921133219.819.qmail@web1202.mail.yahoo.com> <20000922133158.D169965@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <000301c024a9$5cc41080$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>
Message-ID: <00092302464600.00136@darkstar>

On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Kai wrote:
> Hi Nick,
> I just checked and it looks like I've got the same card you do !
> ESS1868 Audio Drive although isapnpdump|more shows it as "Vendor ID ESS0968,
> Serial 1291845632...."
> Have you had any luck getting yours to work without fault?
> Would you, or anyone on the list, know of a card that's available today
> which I can use that will work no worries?
> 
> The Radio server is currently running 5.2 but it's moving to another machine
> which has 6.2 in about 2 or 3 weeks.
> Which cards do you (or anyone) know of that work goo don 6.2?
> 
> Cheers!

I have had no problems getting my old ess 1868 working. It is a PNP card so you
must configure isapnp to configure it on startup, then load the sb and
associated modules. (see /usr/src/linux/Documentation/sound/ESS1868 for
more information)

If you have more money than sense, then an sblive is simpler to setup.
(download and compile driver from opensource.creative.com)

Beau Kuiper
kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au



From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Sat Sep 23 09:19:42 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 09:19:42 +0800
Subject: [plug] good experience with M17
Message-ID: <20000923091942.A24548@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

G'day People,

I'd been using Mozilla (M15) as an alternate browser when Netscape 4.xx falls
over because of poorly formated HTML or javascript or java applets. Well it
was useable but clunky. Last night I got M17, the latest release, and I must
say that it is *much* better:

	- faster
	- more robust
	- more polished.

Still not complete but may become my primary browser ;) Also, M18 should be
out in October some time.



Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Sat Sep 23 09:42:44 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 09:42:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] Off topic: Netscape 6 PR2
Message-ID: <002401c024ff$985bfe40$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

Just curious what everyone things of Netscape 6 PR2?
I've got it installed on my Windoze machine, but I can't seem to get it to work on my 6.2 box (same machine, different partition, of course.)
Anyone having any luck with it?

Kai
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From alpha at helium.indigo.net.au  Sat Sep 23 10:10:32 2000
From: alpha at helium.indigo.net.au (Joshua Pierre)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 10:10:32 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] good experience with M17
In-Reply-To: <20000923091942.A24548@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009231009440.4555-100000@helium.indigo.net.au>

Yeah,

I myself dont use netscape anymore at all... I have taken to using the
mozilla nighlies which look damn nice, crashes less and has ssl support
with PSM... All it needs now is Java and it is a real contender.

Josh




From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Sat Sep 23 10:32:03 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 10:32:03 +0800
Subject: [plug] good experience with M17
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009231009440.4555-100000@helium.indigo.net.au>
Message-ID: <000701c02506$75d811e0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

Yeah, when they get Java implemented it'll be good.
Since I've got J2RE 1.3 installed I wonder how'd it get Mozilla to use that
so I can get java?
I might download M17 and see what it's like, used M16 and that wasn't too
bad.....

Kai

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joshua Pierre" <alpha at helium.indigo.net.au>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [plug] good experience with M17


> Yeah,
>
> I myself dont use netscape anymore at all... I have taken to using the
> mozilla nighlies which look damn nice, crashes less and has ssl support
> with PSM... All it needs now is Java and it is a real contender.
>
> Josh
>
>
>
>



From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Sat Sep 23 10:34:03 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 10:34:03 +0800
Subject: [plug] good experience with M17
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009231009440.4555-100000@helium.indigo.net.au> <000701c02506$75d811e0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>
Message-ID: <000d01c02506$bd4633e0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

oh hey, what do you's reckon about Galeon and K-Meleon?
both very small downloads and quick to load although K-Meleon still needs a
lot of work !

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kai" <vk6ksj at siwa.com.au>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: [plug] good experience with M17


> Yeah, when they get Java implemented it'll be good.
> Since I've got J2RE 1.3 installed I wonder how'd it get Mozilla to use
that
> so I can get java?
> I might download M17 and see what it's like, used M16 and that wasn't too
> bad.....
>
> Kai
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joshua Pierre" <alpha at helium.indigo.net.au>
> To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [plug] good experience with M17
>
>
> > Yeah,
> >
> > I myself dont use netscape anymore at all... I have taken to using the
> > mozilla nighlies which look damn nice, crashes less and has ssl support
> > with PSM... All it needs now is Java and it is a real contender.
> >
> > Josh
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>



From billk at iinet.net.au  Sat Sep 23 11:00:46 2000
From: billk at iinet.net.au (BillK)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 11:00:46 +0800
Subject: [plug] good experience with M17
References: <20000923091942.A24548@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>
Message-ID: <39CC1CDE.1CEF9BE9@iinet.net.au>

Question Jason, does it "do" java, dynamic html, javascript, secure java
(aka netbank) etc yet.  I checked one of the early versions and it was
so limited that I could only browse a few simpler sites so gave up.  If
it cannot do this, other than displaying graphics, may as well be using
lynx!  Galleon looks promising, but no mention of java support when I
looked the other day.

BillK


Jason Nicholls wrote:
> 
> G'day People,
>


From jeffw at mbox.com.au  Sat Sep 23 11:04:05 2000
From: jeffw at mbox.com.au (jeffw at mbox.com.au)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 11:04:05 +0800
Subject: [plug] Off topic: Netscape 6 PR2
Message-ID: <1fdcbf1fd89e.1fd89e1fdcbf@mbox.com.au>

I like the rendering, but don't like the interface.
I got it up and running under linux (debian potato) but its a bit 
quirky. I can't access the mail and newsgroups as a normal user - they 
don't seem to exist, but they're there for root (just checked because I 
was sure they should be there!) Didn't check it out though, because I'm 
happy enough with netscape 4.73.

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: Kai <vk6ksj at siwa.com.au>
Date: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:42 am
Subject: [plug] Off topic: Netscape 6 PR2

> Just curious what everyone things of Netscape 6 PR2?
> I've got it installed on my Windoze machine, but I can't seem to 
> get it to work on my 6.2 box (same machine, different partition, 
> of course.)
> Anyone having any luck with it?
> 
> Kai
> 



From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Sat Sep 23 11:24:17 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 11:24:17 +0800
Subject: [plug] good experience with M17
In-Reply-To: <39CC1CDE.1CEF9BE9@iinet.net.au>; from billk@iinet.net.au on Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 11:00:46AM +0800
References: <20000923091942.A24548@nikita.mindsocket.com.au> <39CC1CDE.1CEF9BE9@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000923112417.B24548@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

G'day Bill,

On Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 11:00:46AM +0800, BillK wrote:
> Question Jason, does it "do" java, dynamic html, javascript, secure java
> (aka netbank) etc yet.  I checked one of the early versions and it was
> so limited that I could only browse a few simpler sites so gave up.  If
> it cannot do this, other than displaying graphics, may as well be using
> lynx!  Galleon looks promising, but no mention of java support when I
> looked the other day.

M17 doesn't have SSL support, but according to Josh the nightly builds do. I
expect M18 to have SSL in that case, and as I mentioned, it should be out in
October.

Java - no

Javascript - yes but I can't say how complete it is...


Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Sat Sep 23 19:27:32 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 19:27:32 +0800
Subject: [plug] good experience with M17
References: <20000923091942.A24548@nikita.mindsocket.com.au> <39CC1CDE.1CEF9BE9@iinet.net.au> <20000923112417.B24548@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>
Message-ID: <39CC93A4.6BCE5B03@brooks.smileys.net>

Jason Nicholls wrote:
> 
> G'day Bill,
> 
> On Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 11:00:46AM +0800, BillK wrote:
> > Question Jason, does it "do" java, dynamic html, javascript, secure java
> > (aka netbank) etc yet.  I checked one of the early versions and it was
> > so limited that I could only browse a few simpler sites so gave up.  If
> > it cannot do this, other than displaying graphics, may as well be using
> > lynx!  Galleon looks promising, but no mention of java support when I
> > looked the other day.

> M17 doesn't have SSL support, but according to Josh the nightly builds do. I
> expect M18 to have SSL in that case, and as I mentioned, it should be out in
> October.

Apparently you can download and add SSL support to it. Yes, SSL is
coming in M18. I have this vague idea that it supports Java by starting
an existing runtime if so configured, but why not rea dthe FAQ and if
that's unclear, ask someone at Mozilla who actually knows? (-:

BTW, Konqueror (successor to KFM) supports both now.

-- 
If at first you don't succeed, try a shorter bungee.


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Sat Sep 23 21:47:29 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:47:29 +0800
Subject: [plug] XMMS
References: <00092222154400.01003@localhost.localdomain> <00092222470500.00282@darkstar>
Message-ID: <39CCB471.23871291@brooks.smileys.net>

Beau Kuiper wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Gavan Blunt wrote:
>> On my RH6.2 machine, I'm having lots of probs with xmms.

>> Does anyone
>> have any ideas on what may be wrong (other than the fact that I'm running
>> gnome 1.2 on a P166/64MB machine)?

> Hmmm, apart from running the new gnome (does your machine swap a lot, what is
> the load top gives you), you can try:

> 1) removing ~/.xmms/config. XMMS's default settings are quite good for
> buffering, and playing around with them may mess them up.

> 2) fiddlinging with the mp3 buffer sizes.

> 3) worse case, apply the low latency patches for linux, and recompile your
> kernel.

4) Run XMMS at nice -10.

5) apply the K6-II-450 solution, going cheap at the moment as Socket7
motherboards dry up. 64MB should be plenty unless you're running something very
hungry like StarOffice.

-- 
The difference between being a system admin and a sewage worker:
Either way you spend your day up to your neck in the waste products
of society. The disadvantage of being a system admin is the rats
are better paid than you and are in charge. -- Russell Street


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Sat Sep 23 21:51:57 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:51:57 +0800
Subject: [plug] PCI soundcards
References: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6347@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>
Message-ID: <39CCB57D.DDBCD20D@brooks.smileys.net>

Dennis Plester wrote:
> Are there any downsides to Mandrake for a "typical" home user, apart from
> being slightly off the pace with some of the included application versions?
> I've heard some people say its buggy, but I haven't seen this side of it
> yet...

Mandrake 7.2beta fixes the first and really illustrates the latter quite well
(e.g. you can't configure Konquerer at all). Mandrake is usually closer to the
pace than RedHat, and streets ahead of Caldera, when it comes to application
versions (with Debian, it depends on whether we're talking about the "stable"
tree or not). The only exception to this is the current Caldera Tech Preview CD
which ships with things like kernel 2.4.0pre and Apache 2.

-- 
Administrator's Dictionary:
Supercomputer n. (1) A computer that anticipates commands.
(2) A computer that can finish an infinite loop in under 2 seconds.


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Sat Sep 23 22:01:25 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 22:01:25 +0800
Subject: [plug] Installfest
Message-ID: <39CCB7B5.AA799081@brooks.smileys.net>

I plan to bring:

At least two mini-towers and a desktop (K6-II-300+Banshee+128M,
K6-II-300+MatroxG200+64M, Pentium 120+whatever+64M).
My bizarre little 486SLC gateway.
Maybe a couple of laptops (look-no-touch, I'll be working on them if there's any
slack time).
A 21" monitor (currently using *all* of the space in the back of my wagon).
A 17" monitor (really 15.9" but that's life).
A few 14" monitors.
Keyboards, mice, power cables, a few plug-boards.
A few network cables (UTP and BNC).
A 10Mb 8-port+BNC hub.
At least 4xVT-320 terminals.
Colour scanner (UMax Astra 610S) with SCSI card.
Mono laser printer (Epson LJ-II-compatible).
Nice digital camera.
Mandrake 7.1 and 7.2beta CDs and updates (including an OpenSSH RPM set which is
known to work for RedHat and Caldera).
Caldera Tech Preview CDs (includes a full source CD).

-- 
A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it. -- Oscar Wilde


From bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au  Sat Sep 23 23:18:23 2000
From: bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au (Garry)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 23:18:23 +0800
Subject: [plug] Installfest
In-Reply-To: <39CCB7B5.AA799081@brooks.smileys.net>
References: <39CCB7B5.AA799081@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <00092323212600.01016@eva>

If anyone is travelling from Kwinana or closer to Installfest and needs gear
moved, I am going in the 4wd, with heaps of inside space.

Give me a shout, soonishly..  ICQ 89648660

Garry.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:
> I plan to bring:
> 
> At least two mini-towers and a desktop (K6-II-300+Banshee+128M,
> K6-II-300+MatroxG200+64M, Pentium 120+whatever+64M).
> My bizarre little 486SLC gateway.
> Maybe a couple of laptops (look-no-touch, I'll be working on them if there's any
> slack time).
> A 21" monitor (currently using *all* of the space in the back of my wagon).
> A 17" monitor (really 15.9" but that's life).
> A few 14" monitors.
> Keyboards, mice, power cables, a few plug-boards.
> A few network cables (UTP and BNC).
> A 10Mb 8-port+BNC hub.
> At least 4xVT-320 terminals.
> Colour scanner (UMax Astra 610S) with SCSI card.
> Mono laser printer (Epson LJ-II-compatible).
> Nice digital camera.
> Mandrake 7.1 and 7.2beta CDs and updates (including an OpenSSH RPM set which is
> known to work for RedHat and Caldera).
> Caldera Tech Preview CDs (includes a full source CD).
> 
> -- 
> A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it. -- Oscar Wilde


From ari at scientist.com  Sat Sep 23 23:27:35 2000
From: ari at scientist.com (Ari Finander)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 11:27:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [plug] 486 Systems for sale
Message-ID: <382541790.969722862278.JavaMail.root@web303-mc.mail.com>

I have several 486 systems, ranging from an intel 33 mhz dx cpu to an intel 66mhz dx 2 cpu, 8 to 16 mb RAM, and 261.3 mb HDD to 525 mb HDD.  All come with color monitor, TP network card, vga card, keyboard, and 3.5" FDD (some hav a 5.25" FDD as well).  Email me if you'd like one, the price is $75 ono.

Ari
ari at scientist.com

______________________________________________
FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Sun Sep 24 15:01:55 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:01:55 +0800
Subject: [plug] InstallFest photos
Message-ID: <39CDA6E3.28ACE815@brooks.smileys.net>

Slowly (25kb/sec!) appearing on line at
http://plug.linux.org.au/~leonb/plug_pix_20000924/

Look in _thumbnails/ for a precis.

-- 
I have a spelling checker / It came with my PC;
It plane lee marks four my revue / Mistakes I cannot sea.
I've wrung this poem threw it / I'm shore your please too no.
It's let her perfect in its weigh. / My chequer tolled knee sew.
    -- Pennye Harper


From subb3 at attglobal.net  Sun Sep 24 15:18:38 2000
From: subb3 at attglobal.net (Subba Rao)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 07:18:38 +0000
Subject: [plug] printcap settings and Windows printer
Message-ID: <20000924071838.A27580@attglobal.net>


Hello,

I have installed a HP Deskjet printer on a Windows boxen which is networked
to the Linux box. Currently my samba settings do allow Linux disk shares to be
accessed from Windows.

Before further dwelling into samba settings, the howto docs indicate that I
have to complete the printcap settings. I have made the following entries
in these files:

---------------------------------------------------------------
/etc/printcap
===============


#
# Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
# All rights reserved.
#
#	@(#)etc.printcap	5.2 (Berkeley) 5/5/88
#
# Remote Deskjet Printer connected to Windows
lp|deskjet:\
	:lp=:\
	:sd=/var/spool/lpd/indra:\
	:rm=windows.mydomain.com:\
	:rp=deskjet:\
	:sh:sf:mx#0:\
	:pl#66:pw#80:


/etc/hosts.lpd
===============

#
# hosts.lpd	This file describes the names of the hosts which are
#		allowed to use the remote printer services of this
#		host.  This file is used by the LPD subsystem.
#

windows

# End of hosts.lpd.
---------------------------------------------------------------

At this point, when I try to print a file to "deskjet" printer on "windows"
I get the following output.

$ lpr -Pdeskjet profile

$ lpq -Pindra -l
connection to windows.mydomain.com is down

I can connect to the windows.mydomain.com box. It responds to ping requests.
What other settings need to be done to be able to print to this deskjet
printer connected to the Windows box?

I would appreciate, if you could share your configuration information for a
similar setup.

Thank you in advance.

Subba Rao
subb3 at attglobal.net
http://pws.prserv.net/truemax/


From dagobah at mad.scientist.com  Sun Sep 24 20:27:40 2000
From: dagobah at mad.scientist.com (Bernard Blackham)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:27:40 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] USB et 2.2.17
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009242010170.30716-100000@bernard>

Greetings,

>From what I've read, for USB support a 2.4.x kernel is required or a
2.2.16 kernel with a backport... Where does the 2.2.17 kernel fit
in? Would the backport patch have to be modified to suit 2.2.17 or more or
less rewritten? I'm trying to set up my HP ScanJet 3300c scanner (but
prospects arent looking good anyway), and an IntelliMouse explorer. If
anyone has had any experience with these, it would be greatly appreciated
if you could pass any pointers. :)

Thanks,

Bernard.

-- 
 Bernard Blackham
 dagobah at mad.scientist.com



From billk at iinet.net.au  Sun Sep 24 20:59:26 2000
From: billk at iinet.net.au (BillK)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:59:26 +0800
Subject: [plug] USB et 2.2.17
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009242010170.30716-100000@bernard>
Message-ID: <39CDFAAE.FB0CB0AD@iinet.net.au>

I added an intellieye mouse (I think it said intellimouse explorer on
the box) some time back with no probs.  It came with a ps2/usb adapter
which I am using.  The important point relevant to you is that it was
detected at boot and usb modules were loaded so USB appears to be
supported.  As it worked, I have not looked further into the ps/2-USB
adaptor which is a wrinkle I have never heard of before.  Kernel is
Mandrake 2.2.16-9 The USB modules are:

post-install usb-storage modprobe usbkbd; modprobe keybdev
alias scsi_hostadapter usb-storage
alias usb-interface usb-ohci

I have not fiddled with them as the system is working, these are as
hardware detect entered them - I have no usb keyboard or scssi!

BillK


Bernard Blackham wrote:


From david.j.campbell at honeywell.com  Mon Sep 25 06:58:31 2000
From: david.j.campbell at honeywell.com (Campbell, David (Ex AS17))
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:58:31 +1100
Subject: [plug] printcap settings and Windows printer
Message-ID: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002>

> From:	Subba Rao [SMTP:subb3 at attglobal.net]
> I have installed a HP Deskjet printer on a Windows boxen which is
networked
> to the Linux box. Currently my samba settings do allow Linux disk shares
to be
> accessed from Windows.

Firstly, is this Win 95/98/ME or Win NT 4.0/2000?

Windows by default uses SMB protocol to share printers rather than the UNIX
default of "lpd" (TCP/IP). Win NT 4.0 supports printing to "lpd" queues but
will
not support "lpd" queue requests itself. Win 95 (I don't know about 98/ME)
refuse to co-operate in any fashion with "lpd" queues without extra
shareware
software.

Right, onto the following problem:

[*snip*]

> I can connect to the windows.mydomain.com box. It responds to ping
requests.
> What other settings need to be done to be able to print to this deskjet
> printer connected to the Windows box?

Providing you have samba working then you should have access to the
"smbclient" utility. Looking at the options for the version on my VMS box
(sorry, linux box is in for an upgrade at the moment).

Try:
$ cat <file> | smbclient \\machine\printer -P -N -U guest

There are better samba experts than me, hopefully this should put you
on the right track. Parallel port hardware is my real area of interest.

David Campbell


From david.j.campbell at honeywell.com  Mon Sep 25 07:06:33 2000
From: david.j.campbell at honeywell.com (Campbell, David (Ex AS17))
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:06:33 +1100
Subject: [plug] printcap settings and Windows printer
Message-ID: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165C@HPACAS17002>

Opps,

For printing to that windows box try:

$ smbclient \\\\machine\\printer -P <password> -U <username>
smb: \> print
print <filename>
smb: \> quit

Replace <password> and <username> as appropriately (try the "guest" user)
the extra slash marks (\\) is due to the slash character being used for
escape
sequences in bash.

David Campbell
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Campbell, David (Ex AS17) [SMTP:david.j.campbell at honeywell.com]
> Sent:	Monday, September 25, 2000 6:52 AM
> To:	plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Subject:	RE: [plug] printcap settings and Windows printer
> 
> > From:	Subba Rao [SMTP:subb3 at attglobal.net]
> > I have installed a HP Deskjet printer on a Windows boxen which is
> networked
> > to the Linux box. Currently my samba settings do allow Linux disk shares
> to be
> > accessed from Windows.
> 
> Firstly, is this Win 95/98/ME or Win NT 4.0/2000?
> 
> Windows by default uses SMB protocol to share printers rather than the
> UNIX
> default of "lpd" (TCP/IP). Win NT 4.0 supports printing to "lpd" queues
> but
> will
> not support "lpd" queue requests itself. Win 95 (I don't know about 98/ME)
> refuse to co-operate in any fashion with "lpd" queues without extra
> shareware
> software.
> 
> Right, onto the following problem:
> 
> [*snip*]
> 
> > I can connect to the windows.mydomain.com box. It responds to ping
> requests.
> > What other settings need to be done to be able to print to this deskjet
> > printer connected to the Windows box?
> 
> Providing you have samba working then you should have access to the
> "smbclient" utility. Looking at the options for the version on my VMS box
> (sorry, linux box is in for an upgrade at the moment).
> 
> Try:
> $ cat <file> | smbclient \\machine\printer -P -N -U guest
> 
> There are better samba experts than me, hopefully this should put you
> on the right track. Parallel port hardware is my real area of interest.
> 
> David Campbell


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 25 07:42:15 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 07:42:15 +0800
Subject: [plug] printcap settings and Windows printer
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165C@HPACAS17002>
Message-ID: <39CE9157.666B65D@brooks.smileys.net>

"Campbell, David (Ex AS17)" wrote:
> Opps,

* dcampbell now has Ops

(-:

> For printing to that windows box try:

> $ smbclient \\\\machine\\printer -P <password> -U <username>
> smb: \> print
> print <filename>
> smb: \> quit

> Replace <password> and <username> as appropriately (try the "guest" user)
> the extra slash marks (\\) is due to the slash character being used for
> escape sequences in bash.

Uh, you're describing the BACKslash character.

The command can also be written like this:

    $ smbclient //machine/printer -P <password> -U <username>

Samba knows. (-:

-- 
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong.
    -- Oscar Wilde


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 25 07:44:39 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 07:44:39 +0800
Subject: [plug] Re: InstallFest hits the news
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009242202090.1689-100000@linuxworld.com.au>
Message-ID: <39CE91E7.D4322D83@brooks.smileys.net>

The following was sent in response to a query from LinuxWorld Australia. If
anyone has anything to add, particularly Committee members wanting to bless or
veto any part(s), send it to Rodney Gedda <rodney at linuxworld.com.au> (but don't
bother the man if it's trivial).

--------8<----cut-here----8<-------

Rodney Gedda wrote:
> (1) How many people attended?

More than a hundred. Possibly as many as 150. Lots. We were glad that we hadn't
advertised more widely, since not everyone who attended was seen to on the day.
We booked them in for installing on one of PLUG's regular workshop sessions.

We learned a lot from this second installfest, and one thing which will be
different next time is that the registration forms will be *required* for an
installee (although there is no compulsion for them to write accurate or indeed
any personal information on the form other than some name for identifying them
in the crowd), will have tracking information on them, and will follow the job
to completion.

One interesting mistake was made with the otherwise excellent CanTech
facilities; someone plugged a rather large circuit into a fan power-point to
ease the load on other phases, and at 17:00 the building-management circuitry
switched the fan circuits to timer-only. About two dozen machines suddenly found
themselves powerless, and I was glad I'd installed on ReiserFS all around.

> (2) How many installs/configs?

There were 54 registration forms filled out, there may have been a few more
installs, and there may have been a few registrees who backed out.

> (3) How many installers were helping out?

Officially, 19. In practice, probably about 30, which represents almost all of
the active club membership.

> (4) What range of hardware was there on the day?

Where do I start? As well as the usual bulk x86 minitowers, there were about ten
laptops all up, and only one (a Mitac) was a problem child (oddly enough,
another visually identical Mitac was not). Even in the x86 machines, there was a
lot of not-quite-mainstream hardware around like LS-120 and Jaz drives, funny
IDE CD burners, scanners, a Sony DSC-F505 digital camera, and internal modems.
Some of these modems worked, AFAIK *all* of the other odd peripherals worked.

There were many PowerPC machines, Macintoshes, Sparcs, a large black
rack-moutable monster which Indulis hauled along from IBM, and another beastie
whose name I didn't get, which arrived running AIX.

Monitors ranged from a 21-inch NEC monster provided by the Book-Keeping Network
to a tiny 9-inch IBM brought along by Nick from the University Computer Club. We
had projectors as well, but never found time to plug them in.

> (5) What was the physical layout of the room like?

Your basic rectangle, maybe 10m by 20m, with moveable partitions down the
centre.

> (6) Any presentations/demonstrations? If so, what were they about and were
> they well attended?

There were several demonstration systems running/available but no formal
presentations.

We had a large workstation showing KDE-2 and Konqueror (a Mandrake 7.2beta
install), several laptops likewise (one Compaq Armada E500, featuring a simple
but brilliant educational game called "Atomic Entertainment" (katomic) kept a
ten-year-old rivetted to the screen; her father stayed for a long time looking
at other things, but even so came close to literally having to pick her up and
carry her out when he wanted to leave).

We had not the resources (people or room) to do presentations. By next year we
will have enough members to do this. Some of the attendees were random drop-ins
who'd seen the signs (which simply said "installfest" and pointed: no Linux, no
penguin) and were curious. Since the next session will be better advertised, we
will get more of the curious and so should cater more to them.

> (6) Please feel free to add anything that you think is worth a mention.

The system and structure which we did have in place served us well. We plan on
increasing the structure a little for the next session, but not so much that it
impedes the free flow of people and information.

The little advertising which we indulged in was noticed, so we plan on putting
more effort into promotion in future.

This definitely has the feel now of having reached critical mass. Sponsorship
and material help from Canning Tech (our hosts), IBM, Caldera, TurboLinux and
others combined to make things easier and more "permanent" in appearance. I
think this helped many attendees and installers to take what they were doing
more seriously, and to see the great value in it.

One attendee was looking for a solution for his second-hand book business, and
had a significant thing to say. He'd asked the large book-sellers what kind of
system he should look at setting up, and they had without exception recommended
that he get a Linux or Unix solution of some kind.

> To compliment the article, it would be great to have some photos. Does
> anyone have happy snaps? ;-)

http://plug.linux.org.au/~leonb/ (last link on page)

-- 
A father is someone who carries pictures where his money used to be.


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 25 07:48:28 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 07:48:28 +0800
Subject: [plug] For your amusement: try using this return address
Message-ID: <39CE92CC.3FB373FB@brooks.smileys.net>


    Your Name (outlook_sucks at microsoft.com) <you at your.domain>

Yes, Henry, Outlook _does_ "help" you here. Some versions will send replies to
"outlook_sucks at microsoft.com" and others will send to (takes a deep breath)
"outlook_sucks at microsoft.comyou@your.domain". This despite parenthesised text
being explicitly nominated as a comment by the RFC.

-- 
Don't put off for tomorrow what you can do today,
because if you enjoy it today you can do it again tomorrow.


From dennisp at tiwest.com.au  Mon Sep 25 07:54:41 2000
From: dennisp at tiwest.com.au (Dennis Plester)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 07:54:41 +0800
Subject: [plug] USB et 2.2.17
Message-ID: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6349@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>

If you are using the ps2/usb adaptor on your intellieye, you are using it as
a ps2 mouse, not USB. These adaptors convert the USB mouse holus bolus into
a ps2 mouse as far as the PC is concerned. (I've use one before on a very
ancient ps2 strictly USB incapable PC previously.

One way to prove which you are using if you wish is to simply disable the
USB port. You will find with the adaptor that the mouse will still function.

Den.


	-----Original Message-----
	From:	BillK [SMTP:billk at iinet.net.au]
	Sent:	Sunday, 24 September 2000 20:51
	To:	plug at plug.linux.org.au
	Subject:	Re: [plug] USB et 2.2.17

	I added an intellieye mouse (I think it said intellimouse explorer
on
	the box) some time back with no probs.  It came with a ps2/usb
adapter
	which I am using.  The important point relevant to you is that it
was
	detected at boot and usb modules were loaded so USB appears to be
	supported.  As it worked, I have not looked further into the
ps/2-USB
	adaptor which is a wrinkle I have never heard of before.  Kernel is
	Mandrake 2.2.16-9 The USB modules are:

	post-install usb-storage modprobe usbkbd; modprobe keybdev
	alias scsi_hostadapter usb-storage
	alias usb-interface usb-ohci

	I have not fiddled with them as the system is working, these are as
	hardware detect entered them - I have no usb keyboard or scssi!

	BillK


	Bernard Blackham wrote:


From david.j.campbell at honeywell.com  Mon Sep 25 08:04:30 2000
From: david.j.campbell at honeywell.com (Campbell, David (Ex AS17))
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 11:04:30 +1100
Subject: [plug] Re: InstallFest hits the news
Message-ID: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183166C@HPACAS17002>

I think a bit about ensuring next time we have long 15 Amp power cords to
distribute the power load would help. The bit about the fan power circuit
may
sound like a stupid mistake but the power trips that plauged us just after
lunch time stopped as soon as we split the electrical load.

Next time I will borrow a couple of 30 metre x 15 Amp cables, that way
we can avoid the red faces we had on the day.

I believe Tony really needs a big congratulations, if anyone has attempted
to organise something of that size will know that Tony has pulled off a
minor miracle.

David Campbell



From billk at iinet.net.au  Mon Sep 25 08:27:30 2000
From: billk at iinet.net.au (billk at iinet.net.au)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 08:27:30 +0800
Subject: [plug] USB et 2.2.17
Message-ID: <200009250027.IAA20131@localhost.localdomain>

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From subb3 at attglobal.net  Mon Sep 25 05:52:06 2000
From: subb3 at attglobal.net (Subba Rao)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 21:52:06 +0000
Subject: [plug] printcap settings and Windows printer
In-Reply-To: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165C@HPACAS17002>; from david.j.campbell@honeywell.com on Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 10:06:33AM +1100
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165C@HPACAS17002>
Message-ID: <20000924215206.C5612@attglobal.net>

On  0, "Campbell, David (Ex AS17)" <david.j.campbell at honeywell.com> wrote:
> Opps,
> 
> For printing to that windows box try:
> 
> $ smbclient \\\\machine\\printer -P <password> -U <username>
> smb: \> print
> print <filename>
> smb: \> quit
> 
> Replace <password> and <username> as appropriately (try the "guest" user)
> the extra slash marks (\\) is due to the slash character being used for
> escape
> sequences in bash.
> 
> David Campbell
> 

Thanks for this help! I am now at a point where I can print a file to the NT
printer. The formating is all screwed up. How can I avoid the "staircase"
effect on text documents? How can I print PDF and Word document files?
One PDF file, I tried to print had all postscript type gibberish all over
the pages. There was nothing readable.

Thanks again for your help.
-- 

Subba Rao
subb3 at attglobal.net
http://pws.prserv.net/truemax/


From dennisp at tiwest.com.au  Mon Sep 25 09:59:32 2000
From: dennisp at tiwest.com.au (Dennis Plester)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:59:32 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mandrake 7.2beta - worth it?
Message-ID: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A634A@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>

Firstly, my congrats to all those involved with the Installfest. I couldn't
make it due to family commitments, but by all accounts it was a great effort
by all involved...

Secondly, I see that Mandrake 7.2beta made an appearance. For someone
happily getting by with an existing 7.1 installation, is it worth upgrading
to the beta, or best to wait for the final release? I mainly use my machine
for general Internet use, burning the odd CD, a fair amount of web database
development work for interest and some Unreal Tournament/Q3 with what little
time I have left. I haven't particularly gone out of my way to upgrade any
of the packages included in the original distro apart from Xcdroast, PHP,
MySQL and my TNT2/Voodoo 2 drivers.

Anyone out there with similar interests who has tried it feel I should give
the beta a go?

Thanks,

Dennis.


From david.j.campbell at honeywell.com  Mon Sep 25 10:09:32 2000
From: david.j.campbell at honeywell.com (Campbell, David (Ex AS17))
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 13:09:32 +1100
Subject: [plug] printcap settings and Windows printer
Message-ID: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB01831708@HPACAS17002>

[*snip*] 

> Thanks for this help! I am now at a point where I can print a file to the
NT
> printer.

Sratch first problem, general low level communications.
Now to handle the device protocol...

> The formating is all screwed up. How can I avoid the "staircase"
> effect on text documents?

Background history about staircase effect. Unix treats a linefeed
(vertical feed) as new line and go back to column zero. Most printers
expect an explicit cariage return rather than assuming it exists.

Which distribution are you using?


From skribe at amber.com.au  Mon Sep 25 10:37:40 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:37:40 +0800
Subject: [plug] Tonight
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20000925103548.03805360@amber.com.au>

Can someone please burn me copies of Mandrake 7.1 and the latest stable 
debian (potato ?) for tonight's meeting?


skribe
         Purity:                           62.0%
         Corruption:                    38.0%
         Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
         Weirdness factor:           31%
         Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
         Medieval Career:            Black Knight



From chris at bizzpro.com.au  Mon Sep 25 12:07:50 2000
From: chris at bizzpro.com.au (Chris Crawford)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 12:07:50 +0800
Subject: [plug] Tonight
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20000925103548.03805360@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <39CECF96.1200583D@bizzpro.com.au>

No probs i can do Mandrake 7.1

skribe wrote:

> Can someone please burn me copies of Mandrake 7.1 and the latest stable
> debian (potato ?) for tonight's meeting?
>
> skribe
>          Purity:                           62.0%
>          Corruption:                    38.0%
>          Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
>          Weirdness factor:           31%
>          Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
>          Medieval Career:            Black Knight

--
Chris Crawford
IT Manager
Bizzpro
http://www.bizzpro.com.au
ICQ 2835288


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From zombie at wasp.net.au  Mon Sep 25 12:14:37 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 12:14:37 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Tonight
In-Reply-To: <39CECF96.1200583D@bizzpro.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000925121336.6668x-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Mon, 25 Sep 2000, Chris Crawford wrote:

> No probs i can do Mandrake 7.1

> skribe wrote:
> 
> > Can someone please burn me copies of Mandrake 7.1 and the latest stable
> > debian (potato ?) for tonight's meeting?

I'll bring a set of Potato.

 - Matt



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Mon Sep 25 16:36:10 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:36:10 +0800
Subject: [plug] Tonight
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000925121336.6668x-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39CF0E7A.F08B7628@brooks.smileys.net>

Matt Kemner wrote:
>> skribe wrote:
>>> Can someone please burn me copies of Mandrake 7.1 and the latest stable
>>> debian (potato ?) for tonight's meeting?

> I'll bring a set of Potato.

Crinkle-Cut or Lite? (-:

-- 
Hain't we got all the fools in town on our side?
And hain't that a big enough majority in any town?
    -- Mark Twain, "Huckleberry Finn"


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Mon Sep 25 16:43:44 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:43:44 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Tonight
In-Reply-To: <39CF0E7A.F08B7628@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000925164304.6668y-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Mon, 25 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:

> > I'll bring a set of Potato.
> 
> Crinkle-Cut or Lite? (-:

Baked^H^H^H^H^H Toasted, not fried

 - Matt



From robd at anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au  Tue Sep 26 00:59:38 2000
From: robd at anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au (Rob Dunne)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:59:38 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] cd wont play
Message-ID: <14799.33914.224558.342424@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au>


Hi list,
        last night I copied an audio-cd using xcdroast.
CD-players can find the 11 tracks on the cd and say that they are playing
them -- but no sound comes out?

What could I be doing wrong? The only options that I can see
in xcdroast are swap-audio and fix-wav (the notes say do not use 
swap-audio).
                  any ideas?
					bye
						rob

-- 
 Rob Dunne         Fax: +61 8 9333 6121     Tel: +61 8 9333 6178
 CSIRO Mathematical and Information Sciences
 Leeuwin Centre for Earth Sensing Technologies 
 Private Bag 5, P.O., Wembley, Western Australia, 6013         
 http://matilda.vu.edu.au/~dunne  Email: Robert.Dunne at cmis.csiro.au

        Java has certainly revolutionized marketing and litigation.



From sbaker at icg.net.au  Mon Sep 25 18:52:11 2000
From: sbaker at icg.net.au (Steve Baker)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:52:11 +0800
Subject: [plug] cd wont play
References: <14799.33914.224558.342424@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au>
Message-ID: <026101c026de$bbd88ba0$65140a0a@sg.mercatela.com>

Hi Rob,


From tlee at enternet.com.au  Mon Sep 25 23:33:13 2000
From: tlee at enternet.com.au (tlee)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:33:13 +0800
Subject: [plug] 486 Systems for sale
References: <382541790.969722862278.JavaMail.root@web303-mc.mail.com>
Message-ID: <39CF7038.8CA523F4@enternet.com.au>

Do any of those systems have linux installed on them?

Ari Finander wrote:

> I have several 486 systems, ranging from an intel 33 mhz dx cpu to an intel 66mhz dx 2 cpu, 8 to 16 mb RAM, and 261.3 mb HDD to 525 mb HDD.  All come with color monitor, TP network card, vga card, keyboard, and 3.5" FDD (some hav a 5.25" FDD as well).  Email me if you'd like one, the price is $75 ono.
>
> Ari
> ari at scientist.com
>
> ______________________________________________
> FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
> Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup





From robd at anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au  Tue Sep 26 07:33:14 2000
From: robd at anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au (Rob Dunne)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 07:33:14 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] cd wont play
In-Reply-To: <026101c026de$bbd88ba0$65140a0a@sg.mercatela.com>
References: <14799.33914.224558.342424@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au>
	<026101c026de$bbd88ba0$65140a0a@sg.mercatela.com>
Message-ID: <14799.57530.9941.477957@anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au>

hi Steve,
     I fixed it -- I had audio-read-mode set to scsi-3/mmc rather than to
ATAPI (not that I know what these things are -- i checked another machine to
see how it was set up).
                             bye	
						rob
Steve Baker writes:
 > Hi Rob,
 > 
 > >From memory, the fix-wav is used to pad out the wav file to the end of the
 > block on the CD-ROM.  Without this, the CD player may have trouble finding
 > the lead out/lead in between tracks, although it will read the directory
 > fine.  (NB: Technical details could be a little incorrect here, don't paste
 > me).  I think I had the same problem once - this was a while a go - and
 > fix-wav fixed the problem.
 > 
 > I think swap-audio swaps the left/right channels - but check the docs.
 > 
 > Try again with fix-wav and see how you go - at worst you'll have a second
 > coaster to match the first.
 > 
 > Regards,
 > Steve

-- 
 Rob Dunne         Fax: +61 8 9333 6121     Tel: +61 8 9333 6178
 CSIRO Mathematical and Information Sciences
 Leeuwin Centre for Earth Sensing Technologies 
 Private Bag 5, P.O., Wembley, Western Australia, 6013         
 http://matilda.vu.edu.au/~dunne  Email: Robert.Dunne at cmis.csiro.au

        Java has certainly revolutionized marketing and litigation.



From tclark at telia.com  Tue Sep 26 13:03:52 2000
From: tclark at telia.com (Tony Clark)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:03:52 -0700
Subject: [plug] LCD display
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000925215758.00afd9a0@m1.827.telia.com>

Anyone experienced low birghtness wishy washy display running X...Both Kde 
and Gnone have the same problem...low contrast and brightness.  You would 
think it was a hardware problem but the same computer is fine running 
W2k...It's a laptop (tos 4080xcdt)...Problem started a couple of days 
ago...was running fine up till then....never seen the problem before.  I've 
resorted to a full re-install with no luck...Should have taken it to the 
install fest yesterday but it was a little far to go.

Anyone got any idea?

thanks

tony



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Tue Sep 26 07:33:21 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 07:33:21 +0800
Subject: [plug] LCD display
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000925215758.00afd9a0@m1.827.telia.com>
Message-ID: <39CFE0C1.74424BAE@brooks.smileys.net>

Tony Clark wrote:
> Anyone experienced low birghtness wishy washy display running X...Both Kde
> and Gnone have the same problem...low contrast and brightness.  You would
> think it was a hardware problem but the same computer is fine running
> W2k...It's a laptop (tos 4080xcdt)...Problem started a couple of days
> ago...was running fine up till then....never seen the problem before.  I've
> resorted to a full re-install with no luck...Should have taken it to the
> install fest yesterday but it was a little far to go.

Weird. What's the video chipset? What distro does it wear at the moment?

-- 
"In my day, we didn't have virtual reality. If a one-eyed razorback
 barbarian warrior was chasing you with an ax, you just had to hope
 you could outrun him." -- Sarah M. Wolford, Hanover


From dennisp at tiwest.com.au  Tue Sep 26 07:51:07 2000
From: dennisp at tiwest.com.au (Dennis Plester)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 07:51:07 +0800
Subject: [plug] cd wont play
Message-ID: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6351@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>

Just in case you are interested, the scsi-3/mmc, ATAPI, etc refer to the
different ways in which the audio can be extracted, depending on the type of
device you are using. My guess is that your burner is an IDE (or ATAPI)
unit. If you choose the wrong method of digital audio extraction, you may
get rubbish like white noise, or even tracks of pure digital silence. I've
made one or two CD compilations of the sounds of silence in my time.
Xcdroast defaults to scsi-3/mmc on some IDE writers I've come across.

If in doubt,  you can play the extracted tracks back in Xcdroast first from
the hard disk. If you can hear the music (sound card permitting), they
should be fine once burnt on a CD.

Hope this explains things.

Dennis.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Rob Dunne [SMTP:robd at anville.wa.cmis.csiro.au]
	Sent:	Monday, 25 September 2000 23:57
	To:	plug at plug.linux.org.au
	Subject:	Re: [plug] cd wont play

	hi Steve,
	     I fixed it -- I had audio-read-mode set to scsi-3/mmc rather
than to
	ATAPI (not that I know what these things are -- i checked another
machine to
	see how it was set up).
	                             bye	
							rob
	Steve Baker writes:
	 > Hi Rob,
	 > 
	 > >From memory, the fix-wav is used to pad out the wav file to the
end of the
	 > block on the CD-ROM.  Without this, the CD player may have
trouble finding
	 > the lead out/lead in between tracks, although it will read the
directory
	 > fine.  (NB: Technical details could be a little incorrect here,
don't paste
	 > me).  I think I had the same problem once - this was a while a go
- and
	 > fix-wav fixed the problem.
	 > 
	 > I think swap-audio swaps the left/right channels - but check the
docs.
	 > 
	 > Try again with fix-wav and see how you go - at worst you'll have
a second
	 > coaster to match the first.
	 > 
	 > Regards,
	 > Steve

	-- 
	 Rob Dunne         Fax: +61 8 9333 6121     Tel: +61 8 9333 6178
	 CSIRO Mathematical and Information Sciences
	 Leeuwin Centre for Earth Sensing Technologies 
	 Private Bag 5, P.O., Wembley, Western Australia, 6013         
	 http://matilda.vu.edu.au/~dunne  Email: Robert.Dunne at cmis.csiro.au

	        Java has certainly revolutionized marketing and litigation.
	


From bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au  Tue Sep 26 08:20:49 2000
From: bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au (Garry)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 08:20:49 +0800
Subject: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002>
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002>
Message-ID: <00092608231000.00795@eva>

For those interested, Red Hat 7 is now avalable.

details at: www.redhat.com/products/software

Garry


From russ at embedit.com.au  Tue Sep 26 10:49:07 2000
From: russ at embedit.com.au (russ)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:49:07 +0800
Subject: [plug] fetchmail
Message-ID: <39D00EA3.1E6CE481@embedit.com.au>

Hi,

I'm getting a error from fetchmail:

"socket error while fetching from iinet.net.au"

I checked the FAQ and it mentioned setting MTU to 552. Tried that with no luck. MTU's are 552 but
still getting the error. Any suggestions?

Thanks 
russ


From dramoth at indigo.net.au  Tue Sep 26 11:16:36 2000
From: dramoth at indigo.net.au (Mark Leaver)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 11:16:36 +0800
Subject: [plug] Need help setting up a server
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000926110716.00aa61a0@mail.indigo.net.au>

I was at the installfest on Sunday, but I didnt manage to get my server 
completely setup and I was wondering if someone skilled  in the art of 
setting up a debian server would be able to donate their time for a small 
amount of cash return

I need help in setting up the Mail server(Postfix), MySQL, PHP4, Apache, 
Squid, an FTP server, OpenSSH

I can afford to fork out $20.00 an hour for upto 5 hours...

Thanks in Advance

Mark Leaver



From russ at powerstech.com  Tue Sep 26 12:02:14 2000
From: russ at powerstech.com (russ)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:02:14 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] pppd
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261158550.21029-100000@wilma.embedit.com.au>

OK, no help for fetchmail. :(

How about pppd? I'm getting this error message:

"Cannot determine ethernet address for proxy ARP"

Any ideas?

Thanks
russ



From bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au  Tue Sep 26 12:14:30 2000
From: bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au (Garry)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:14:30 +0800
Subject: [plug] Keys?
In-Reply-To: <39D00EA3.1E6CE481@embedit.com.au>
References: <39D00EA3.1E6CE481@embedit.com.au>
Message-ID: <00092612155600.00957@eva>

Hi all, 

Did anyone find a set of keys last night after the UCC PLUG meeting?

Thanks,

Garry.


From tclark at telia.com  Tue Sep 26 21:13:10 2000
From: tclark at telia.com (Tony Clark)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 06:13:10 -0700
Subject: [plug] LCD display
In-Reply-To: <39CFE0C1.74424BAE@brooks.smileys.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000925215758.00afd9a0@m1.827.telia.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000926061108.00b193a8@m1.827.telia.com>

At 07:33 AM 9/26/2000 +0800, you wrote:
>Tony Clark wrote:
> > Anyone experienced low birghtness wishy washy display running X...Both Kde
> > and Gnone have the same problem...low contrast and brightness.  You would
> > think it was a hardware problem but the same computer is fine running
> > W2k...It's a laptop (tos 4080xcdt)...Problem started a couple of days
> > ago...was running fine up till then....never seen the problem before.  I've
> > resorted to a full re-install with no luck...Should have taken it to the
> > install fest yesterday but it was a little far to go.
>
>Weird. What's the video chipset? What distro does it wear at the moment?

Chipset is a Trident 9525 and it has RH6.2 on it.  Display is fine when X 
isn't running as well.




From nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au  Tue Sep 26 12:30:43 2000
From: nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Bannon)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:30:43 +0800
Subject: [plug] Keys?
In-Reply-To: <00092612155600.00957@eva>; from bigbadbill@dingoblue.net.au on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 12:14:30PM +0800
References: <39D00EA3.1E6CE481@embedit.com.au> <00092612155600.00957@eva>
Message-ID: <20000926123043.B43292@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 12:14:30PM +0800, Garry wrote:
> Hi all, 
> 
> Did anyone find a set of keys last night after the UCC PLUG meeting?

I'll keep an eye out - what do they look like?

Nick.

-- 
  Nick Bannon  | "I made this letter longer than usual because
nick at it.net.au | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 12:30:59 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:30:59 +0800
Subject: [plug] Red Hat 7
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002> <00092608231000.00795@eva>
Message-ID: <39D02683.5440F721@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Garry wrote:
> 
> For those interested, Red Hat 7 is now avalable.
> 
> details at: www.redhat.com/products/software
> 
> Garry

Any idea what kernel it uses? The web pages say that it is "2.4 ready";
indicating that whatever kernel it uses, can be replaced with the 2.4
kernel (if I understand that right), but, I could not find what kernel
it uses.

And, of course, this comes, just after we started replacing my RH 5.2
with 6.2...

Has anyone installed it yet? Noticed any significant differences in 7.0
over 6.2?

Any disks been cut locally?

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From christian at amnet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 12:37:56 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:37:56 +0800
Subject: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <39D02683.5440F721@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 12:30:59PM +0800
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002> <00092608231000.00795@eva> <39D02683.5440F721@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000926123756.D24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 12:30:59PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
 
> Any idea what kernel it uses? The web pages say that it is "2.4 ready";
> indicating that whatever kernel it uses, can be replaced with the 2.4
> kernel (if I understand that right), but, I could not find what kernel
> it uses.

Does it matter?  With the exception of major number changes (e.g. 2.0 ->
2.2), it really doesn't make that much of a difference because you can
just install whatever kernel you want.  But, given that 2.2.17 has been
out for a little while now, it would seem likely that it uses this.

> And, of course, this comes, just after we started replacing my RH 5.2
> with 6.2...

See, if you were running Debian then the prospect of upgrading wouldn't
bother you in the slightest...


From bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au  Tue Sep 26 12:37:52 2000
From: bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au (Garry)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:37:52 +0800
Subject: [plug] Keys?
In-Reply-To: <20000926123043.B43292@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>
References: <39D00EA3.1E6CE481@embedit.com.au> <00092612155600.00957@eva> <20000926123043.B43292@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <00092612411901.00957@eva>

A bunch of keys on two rings I think, has a red bottle opener, and keys include
2 Toyota keys. All up, it's a good fist full.

No distinguishing/cute tags/fobs.

Garry.



> I'll keep an eye out - what do they look like?
> 
> Nick.
> 
> -- 
>   Nick Bannon  | "I made this letter longer than usual because
> nick at it.net.au | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal


From bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au  Tue Sep 26 12:41:46 2000
From: bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au (Garry)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:41:46 +0800
Subject: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <39D02683.5440F721@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002> <00092608231000.00795@eva> <39D02683.5440F721@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00092612435902.00957@eva>

I only just saw a note about the release. I guess the URL would be a good place
to get the details.

Or a d/l from aarnet might be possible in next day or so, esp if you have ECL
lab speeds..

Garry.
> 
> Any disks been cut locally?
> 
> -- 
> 
> Bret Busby
> 
> ......................................
> ""So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
> answer means."
>  - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
>  - Douglas Adams, 1988 
> ......................................


From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Tue Sep 26 12:59:51 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:59:51 +0800
Subject: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <39D02683.5440F721@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 12:30:59PM +0800
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002> <00092608231000.00795@eva> <39D02683.5440F721@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000926125951.A15541@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

G'day,

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 12:30:59PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> Garry wrote:
> > 
> > For those interested, Red Hat 7 is now avalable.
> > 
> > details at: www.redhat.com/products/software
> > 
> > Garry
> 
> Any idea what kernel it uses? The web pages say that it is "2.4 ready";
> indicating that whatever kernel it uses, can be replaced with the 2.4
> kernel (if I understand that right), but, I could not find what kernel
> it uses.
> 
> And, of course, this comes, just after we started replacing my RH 5.2
> with 6.2...
> 
> Has anyone installed it yet? Noticed any significant differences in 7.0
> over 6.2?
> 
> Any disks been cut locally?


Please check:

	http://www.redhat.com/products/software/linux/pl_rhl7.html

for a package listing of rh7. In summary:

	- like 6.2 +
		- latest gnome stuff (say 6.2 + helix gnome)
		- stuff that has been missing for a long time due to whatever
		  reasons:
		  	- mysql
			- openssl (+ssh)
		- XFree86 4.0.1
	- better (matter of opinion) config tools etc...	


Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 26 13:02:17 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:02:17 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] pppd
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261158550.21029-100000@wilma.embedit.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926125622.6668z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, russ wrote:

> OK, no help for fetchmail. :(

Sorry, don't use fetchmail
Only thing I can think of, is try to connect to the mailserver manually
(telnet <IP.IP.IP.IP> 110)
 
> How about pppd? I'm getting this error message:
> 
> "Cannot determine ethernet address for proxy ARP"

Ignore it.

Proxy arp, is where if you run a dial-in server, you can make the remote
host appear on the local network..

EG say you have local network 192.168.1.0/24 and your Linux server is on
192.168.1.1, and you have local workstations (windows or otherwise) on
192.168.1.2 -> 192.168.1.10, you can set up your dial-in server so someone
can dial into it, and they get assigned 192.168.1.100
With proxyarp, the Linux server will answer any arp requests it sees
for 192.168.1.100, so the local workstations will send their data to the
Linux box, which will forward it on via the modem.

Because proxyarp is turned on by default on most distributions, the error
you are getting is because pppd has been told what the remote IP address
is, and it is searching for a local ethernet card in that network to
proxyarp in.

So, either remove proxyarp from /etc/ppp/options, or ignore it.

 - Matt



From russ at powerstech.com  Tue Sep 26 13:14:48 2000
From: russ at powerstech.com (russ)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:14:48 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] pppd
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926125622.6668z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261312280.14460-100000@wilma.embedit.com.au>



On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Matt Kemner wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, russ wrote:
> 
> > OK, no help for fetchmail. :(
> 
> Sorry, don't use fetchmail
> Only thing I can think of, is try to connect to the mailserver manually
> (telnet <IP.IP.IP.IP> 110)

telnet failed: Connection closed by foreign host.

What does this mean?


  
> Ignore it.

OK. :)




From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 13:14:50 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:14:50 +0800
Subject: [plug] Red Hat 7
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002> <00092608231000.00795@eva> <39D02683.5440F721@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000926125951.A15541@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D030CA.D8218631@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Jason Nicholls wrote:
> 
> G'day,
> 
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 12:30:59PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> > Garry wrote:
> > >
> > > For those interested, Red Hat 7 is now avalable.
> > >
> > > details at: www.redhat.com/products/software
> > >
> > > Garry
> >
> > Any idea what kernel it uses? The web pages say that it is "2.4 ready";
> > indicating that whatever kernel it uses, can be replaced with the 2.4
> > kernel (if I understand that right), but, I could not find what kernel
> > it uses.
> >
> > And, of course, this comes, just after we started replacing my RH 5.2
> > with 6.2...
> >
> > Has anyone installed it yet? Noticed any significant differences in 7.0
> > over 6.2?
> >
> > Any disks been cut locally?
> 
> Please check:
> 
>         http://www.redhat.com/products/software/linux/pl_rhl7.html
> 
> for a package listing of rh7. In summary:
> 
>         - like 6.2 +
>                 - latest gnome stuff (say 6.2 + helix gnome)
>                 - stuff that has been missing for a long time due to whatever
>                   reasons:
>                         - mysql
>                         - openssl (+ssh)
>                 - XFree86 4.0.1
>         - better (matter of opinion) config tools etc...
> 

I have looked at that web page.

We are more interested in PostGreSQl, and not in mySQL. I don't remember
seeing either PHP, or PostgreSQL, in the package list, though PHP was, I
think, mentioned, as included in the server edition overview.

Perhaps I should have been more specific in my questioning; for example,
is the hardware autodetection significantly better? Does it run on a
486? (RH 6.0 does, with 16MB RAM.) I saw that it includes a GUI firewall
setup, for the server edition, but, how good is it?.


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 26 13:30:07 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:30:07 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] pppd
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261312280.14460-100000@wilma.embedit.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926132754.6668A-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, russ wrote:

> telnet failed: Connection closed by foreign host.
> 
> What does this mean?

Either there is a firewall blocking access, they've mucked up their
hosts.allow entries, or they are no longer running a mailserver on that
machine.

(Though if it was the latter you really should be seeing "Connection
refused" rather than "Connection closed" which implies there _is_
something listening on that port, but it decided to close prematurely)

Could also be they have inetd listen to that port, and inetd.conf
configured to run /usr/sbin/in.pop3d (or something) and that file no
longer exists.

Either way, talk to your ISP :)

 - Matt



From bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au  Tue Sep 26 13:27:11 2000
From: bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au (Garry)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:27:11 +0800
Subject: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <39D030CA.D8218631@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002> <20000926125951.A15541@nikita.mindsocket.com.au> <39D030CA.D8218631@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00092613325406.00957@eva>

Brett,

Fair go.. I noticed it on a message board. Brought this to the attn of the
group, with a URL for those interested.

Many are using Debian, Mandrake or other. Not all want a detained precies of
the release.

Or an abstract simile with dangerous cars.

That's why I provided a URL, for those interested.

For everyone else, sorry for the bandwidth used. Back to the scheduled
programming.

Garry.



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 13:36:32 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:36:32 +0800
Subject: [plug] Red Hat 7
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002> <00092608231000.00795@eva> <39D02683.5440F721@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000926123756.D24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D035E0.39A99EE5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Christian wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 12:30:59PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > Any idea what kernel it uses? The web pages say that it is "2.4 ready";
> > indicating that whatever kernel it uses, can be replaced with the 2.4
> > kernel (if I understand that right), but, I could not find what kernel
> > it uses.
> 
> Does it matter?  With the exception of major number changes (e.g. 2.0 ->
> 2.2), it really doesn't make that much of a difference because you can
> just install whatever kernel you want.  But, given that 2.2.17 has been
> out for a little while now, it would seem likely that it uses this.
> 
> > And, of course, this comes, just after we started replacing my RH 5.2
> > with 6.2...
> 
> See, if you were running Debian then the prospect of upgrading wouldn't
> bother you in the slightest...

That sounds like you are inviting a potato fight ;) or a "distro war".
Out come the spud guns!

The September 2000 issue of Australian Personal Computer review of the
more common Linux distributions, says about Linux;
"Debian GNU/Linux 2.1
Described as 'Linux for hackers, by hackers, Debian is respected among
technical users as a compact and well-crafted distribution. It isn't
user-friendly and it doesn't try to be; it's a hands-on way to run a
finely tuned operationg system, and demands extensive Linux
knowledge."..."The desktop is almost non-existent."..."As Debian is
targeted at the expert Linux user,..."

Thus, it appears that a user has to be a Linux guru, or, approaching
guru status.

And, with what I heard of the results of the Debian installs at the
installfest, it can be problematic (unless the installer/user is a Linux
guru-type person).

However, as I have told others, Christian has shown me the ease of
adding a package, using a Debian system. It appears that, once a user
gets past the difficulties of instasllation and configuration, it is
simple to use (?)

Also, people who tried to have Mandrake installed, appear to have had
problems, which, apparently, was why, in some cases, Debian was tried.

It appears that Red Hat seems to be the distribution for us to use (we
believe).

I note also, that the APC review said of Mandrake 7.1 "Despite its buggy
reputation, Mandrake is more stable than most non-Linux operating
systems". So, at least, Mandrake is more stable than Win 9x ;) Perhaps
the bugginess of Mandrake's repute, is the reason for the problems at
the installfest?

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From russ at powerstech.com  Tue Sep 26 13:45:00 2000
From: russ at powerstech.com (russ)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:45:00 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] pppd
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926132754.6668A-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261344100.15158-100000@wilma.embedit.com.au>


Thanks for that.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Matt Kemner wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, russ wrote:
> 
> > telnet failed: Connection closed by foreign host.
> > 
> > What does this mean?
> 
> Either there is a firewall blocking access, they've mucked up their
> hosts.allow entries, or they are no longer running a mailserver on that
> machine.
> 
> (Though if it was the latter you really should be seeing "Connection
> refused" rather than "Connection closed" which implies there _is_
> something listening on that port, but it decided to close prematurely)
> 
> Could also be they have inetd listen to that port, and inetd.conf
> configured to run /usr/sbin/in.pop3d (or something) and that file no
> longer exists.
> 
> Either way, talk to your ISP :)
> 
>  - Matt
> 
> 



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 13:44:49 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:44:49 +0800
Subject: [plug] Red Hat 7
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002> <20000926125951.A15541@nikita.mindsocket.com.au> <39D030CA.D8218631@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <00092613325406.00957@eva>
Message-ID: <39D037D1.A050DAAE@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Garry wrote:
> 
> Brett,
> 
> Fair go.. I noticed it on a message board. Brought this to the attn of the
> group, with a URL for those interested.
> 
> Many are using Debian, Mandrake or other. Not all want a detained precies of
> the release.
> 
> Or an abstract simile with dangerous cars.
> 
> That's why I provided a URL, for those interested.
> 
> For everyone else, sorry for the bandwidth used. Back to the scheduled
> programming.
> 
> Garry.

What I was seeking was fair; you said "hey, people, for those that are
interested, RH 7.0 is now available; here is a link for information"; I
simply wanted to find whether anyone had it installed, and, if so,
whether they had noticed any significant differences. That is reasonable
to ask. I had followed the URL, and, looked around at the information
available at Red Hat; I was seeking advice as to whether anyone was
using it, and, what they thought of it, as a user.

It appears, so far, that no-one has it installed, yet.

Also, out of interest, I have received a mailing from Everything Linux,
who have it available (or, are taking orders), and who, if my
understanding is correct, indicate that RH 7.0 is now a 2 CD instal. 

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From dennisp at tiwest.com.au  Tue Sep 26 13:49:23 2000
From: dennisp at tiwest.com.au (Dennis Plester)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:49:23 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mandrake's buginess
Message-ID: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6357@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>

Does anyone out there actually know what is meant by Mandrake's "buggy"
reputation? (Ref: September APC).

What were the Mandrake problems experienced at the Installfest? My run with
7.1 has been smooth as, but I have only chucked it on 4 different machines
of various ages...

As for Red Hat's reliability, isn't Mandrake based on Red Hat anyway?

Later

Dennis.



From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 26 13:50:51 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:50:51 +0800 (WST)
Subject: Debian (Re: [plug] Red Hat 7)
In-Reply-To: <39D035E0.39A99EE5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926134729.6668B-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> That sounds like you are inviting a potato fight ;) or a "distro war".

> Thus, it appears that a user has to be a Linux guru, or, approaching
> guru status.

Bret, rather than starting yet another distro flamewar, which helps
noone, you could do something constructive and actually trying Debian out,
and seeing for yourself.

Was it you who complained only a handful of emails ago about someone
talking about RH7 without having tried it himself?

Try it. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 - Matt



From dennisp at tiwest.com.au  Tue Sep 26 13:51:45 2000
From: dennisp at tiwest.com.au (Dennis Plester)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:51:45 +0800
Subject: [plug] Red Hat 7
Message-ID: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6358@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>

Yep, 2 CDs. It has some kind of two CD simultaneous installation if you have
two drives on your system apparently (according to the web site...)

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Bret Busby [SMTP:bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au]
	Sent:	Tuesday, 26 September 2000 13:36
	To:	plug at plug.linux.org.au
	Subject:	Re: [plug] Red Hat 7

	Garry wrote:
	> 
	> Brett,
	> 
	> Fair go.. I noticed it on a message board. Brought this to the
attn of the
	> group, with a URL for those interested.
	> 
	> Many are using Debian, Mandrake or other. Not all want a detained
precies of
	> the release.
	> 
	> Or an abstract simile with dangerous cars.
	> 
	> That's why I provided a URL, for those interested.
	> 
	> For everyone else, sorry for the bandwidth used. Back to the
scheduled
	> programming.
	> 
	> Garry.

	What I was seeking was fair; you said "hey, people, for those that
are
	interested, RH 7.0 is now available; here is a link for
information"; I
	simply wanted to find whether anyone had it installed, and, if so,
	whether they had noticed any significant differences. That is
reasonable
	to ask. I had followed the URL, and, looked around at the
information
	available at Red Hat; I was seeking advice as to whether anyone was
	using it, and, what they thought of it, as a user.

	It appears, so far, that no-one has it installed, yet.

	Also, out of interest, I have received a mailing from Everything
Linux,
	who have it available (or, are taking orders), and who, if my
	understanding is correct, indicate that RH 7.0 is now a 2 CD instal.


	-- 

	Bret Busby

	......................................
	"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what
the
	answer means."
	 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
	 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
	......................................


From james at rcpt.to  Tue Sep 26 13:59:09 2000
From: james at rcpt.to (James Bromberger)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:59:09 +0800
Subject: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <39D035E0.39A99EE5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 01:36:32PM +0800
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002> <00092608231000.00795@eva> <39D02683.5440F721@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000926123756.D24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D035E0.39A99EE5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000926135909.A49071@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 01:36:32PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> And, with what I heard of the results of the Debian installs at the
> installfest, it can be problematic (unless the installer/user is a Linux
> guru-type person).
> 
> However, as I have told others, Christian has shown me the ease of
> adding a package, using a Debian system. It appears that, once a user
> gets past the difficulties of instasllation and configuration, it is
> simple to use (?)

There has been a long thread on Debian-devel recently regarding the new 
install design specs. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who 
would not agree that the Debian install could do with some work. But as you 
say, once installed, you're pretty much set with a reliable system that can 
be completely upgraded in place. One recent success story was somenoe who 
upgraded from an old distribution from aruond 2 years ago (buzz? *shrug*) to 
potato (2.2, the current release) in 45 minutes using apt-get, with no problems, 
which took the system from libc5 to glibc2 and various other core changes.

Debian does seem to do the right thing, but does take its time to do so, 
but I think that is just the nature of the beast. Without the extra forces of 
commercial pressure, it can afford to do that, but only for a short time: 
It is the commitment of the volunteers that stop it from delaying itself into 
oblivion. Getting things right is more important than getting it shipped.

One RedHatter here just said this morning that he is going to nuke his 
6.x install and reinstall with 7. With Debian, the deisgn is so cool 
that this scenario is (almost) unheard of. ;)

  James

Debian sys admin since late '94.

-- 
 James Bromberger <james_AT_bromberger.com> www.rcpt.to/~james
   IT, Pelican Manufacturing - www.pelicanmanufacturing.com.au
   Snr Web Systems Admin, JDV - www.jdv.com  *  www.hartleypoynton.com.au

 Remainder moved to http://www.rcpt.to/~james/james/sig.html


From christian at amnet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 14:00:28 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:00:28 +0800
Subject: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <39D035E0.39A99EE5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 01:36:32PM +0800
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002> <00092608231000.00795@eva> <39D02683.5440F721@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000926123756.D24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D035E0.39A99EE5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000926140028.E24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 01:36:32PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> The September 2000 issue of Australian Personal Computer review of the
> more common Linux distributions, says about Linux;
> "Debian GNU/Linux 2.1
> Described as 'Linux for hackers, by hackers, Debian is respected among
> technical users as a compact and well-crafted distribution. It isn't
> user-friendly and it doesn't try to be; it's a hands-on way to run a
> finely tuned operationg system, and demands extensive Linux
> knowledge."..."The desktop is almost non-existent."..."As Debian is
> targeted at the expert Linux user,..."

"The desktop is almost non-existent"????  My god, my life for the past
three years has been an illusion... I thought I'd been using a GUI
desktop but it appears I have been dreaming.  Thanks APC, for setting me
straight.

Seriously Bret... don't believe everything you read.  Debian *can* be a
little difficult to install but using it in a meaningful way is no
harder than using any Linux distribution.

 
> It appears that Red Hat seems to be the distribution for us to use (we
> believe).

Then don't whinge about upgrading it.  You can't complain about
something when you have the option to change.  You could have brought
your old RH box to the installfest and had someone upgrade it to Debian.


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 14:01:33 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:01:33 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mandrake's buginess
References: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6357@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D03BBD.D2CEFC0B@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Dennis Plester wrote:
> 
> Does anyone out there actually know what is meant by Mandrake's "buggy"
> reputation? (Ref: September APC).
> 
> What were the Mandrake problems experienced at the Installfest? My run with
> 7.1 has been smooth as, but I have only chucked it on 4 different machines
> of various ages...
> 
> As for Red Hat's reliability, isn't Mandrake based on Red Hat anyway?
> 

The being based on Red Hat, is (or, was) hotly denied by Mandrake.
Earlier versions apparently were, but not as of v7, I think, according
to Mandrake.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From bburns at erggroup.com  Tue Sep 26 14:12:57 2000
From: bburns at erggroup.com (bburns at erggroup.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:12:57 +0800
Subject: [plug] Web maillist Subscription [ot]
Message-ID: <OFA4FA8D8C.B43F312D-ON48256966.0021FC4C@erggroup.com>

Sorry if this is off-topic, I just tried to subscribe a friend to the
mailing list using the web interface and received this reply..

Bad Referrer - Access Denied
The form that is trying to use this FormMail Program resides at: http://www.plug.org.au/mailing.html, which is not allowed to access this cgi script.
Sorry!

Someone who knows might want to try and fix it.

Cheers,
Ben

---------------------------- ERG Group --------------------------
 The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential
 and may only be read by the intended recipient.
-----------------------------------------------------------------



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 14:20:58 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:20:58 +0800
Subject: Distributions - was Re: [plug] Red Hat 7
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002> <00092608231000.00795@eva> <39D02683.5440F721@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000926123756.D24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D035E0.39A99EE5@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000926140028.E24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D0404A.5D04B9DD@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Christian wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 01:36:32PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> > The September 2000 issue of Australian Personal Computer review of the
> > more common Linux distributions, says about Linux;
> > "Debian GNU/Linux 2.1
> > Described as 'Linux for hackers, by hackers, Debian is respected among
> > technical users as a compact and well-crafted distribution. It isn't
> > user-friendly and it doesn't try to be; it's a hands-on way to run a
> > finely tuned operationg system, and demands extensive Linux
> > knowledge."..."The desktop is almost non-existent."..."As Debian is
> > targeted at the expert Linux user,..."
> 
> "The desktop is almost non-existent"????  My god, my life for the past
> three years has been an illusion... I thought I'd been using a GUI
> desktop but it appears I have been dreaming.  Thanks APC, for setting me
> straight.

I neglected to mention, that when Christian showed me the package
instal, his system did have a GUI desktop....

> 
> Seriously Bret... don't believe everything you read.  Debian *can* be a
> little difficult to install but using it in a meaningful way is no
> harder than using any Linux distribution.
> 
> 
> > It appears that Red Hat seems to be the distribution for us to use (we
> > believe).
> 
> Then don't whinge about upgrading it.  You can't complain about
> something when you have the option to change.  You could have brought
> your old RH box to the installfest and had someone upgrade it to Debian.

Just out of interest, we were at the installfest, but, after the three
hours that it took us to get there, after having had to have our
windscreen replaced on the way, we were too late to get anything done.

I don't know whether you found your way to the installfest, Christian,
but the installfest was swamped with people, and the installers got "run
off their feet", and ran out of time, to complete instals for people who
had apparently been waiting much longer than us.

The APC article did say that "Debian will run on a wide range of
harwdware, easily converting your old 486 into a capable Linux-based
firewall or mail server.".

I had wanted to take the 486 along, to try it with Debian, but I thought
that it would be presumptuous, to take three boxes there, and, it was
probably as well that we didn't. Apart from our server falling on its
head, when we lost the windscreen, and my computer falling on its side
afterward (both seem to work okay, apart from the network card in my
computer having come loose), if we had had the 486 there as well, we
could have lost three computers, with the way that it went.

Apart from that problem, with the way that things were at the
installfest, we would have taken up too much of the available resources,
if we had been able to get all three computers attended to.

I think this also takes care of your suggestion, Matt.

When we can next make a UCC meeting, we will see what we can do, about
both getting our LAN problems resolved, and, getting Debian installed on
the 486.

Does Debian install via NFS? The soundcard in the 486, which is supposed
to make the CD drive operational, doesn't, and so, installations need to
be via NFS or floppies (perish the thought).

Also, from what I understood at the installfest, Debian is a multi-disk
instal, like Mandrake. Is that correct?

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 26 14:21:25 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:21:25 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Web maillist Subscription [ot]
In-Reply-To: <OFA4FA8D8C.B43F312D-ON48256966.0021FC4C@erggroup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926141922.6668D-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 bburns at erggroup.com wrote:

> The form that is trying to use this FormMail Program resides at:
> http://www.plug.org.au/mailing.html, which is not allowed to access this
> cgi script. 

OK that would be because our preferred domain name is plug.linux.org.au
and I'd forgotten to add plug.org.au to Formmail.cgi

Fixed now

 - Matt



From christian at amnet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 14:31:18 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:31:18 +0800
Subject: Distributions - was Re: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <39D0404A.5D04B9DD@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 02:20:58PM +0800
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002> <00092608231000.00795@eva> <39D02683.5440F721@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000926123756.D24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D035E0.39A99EE5@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000926140028.E24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D0404A.5D04B9DD@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000926143118.F24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 02:20:58PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
 
> When we can next make a UCC meeting, we will see what we can do, about
> both getting our LAN problems resolved, and, getting Debian installed on
> the 486.

Perhaps consider taking a bus or taxi this time... ;-)

> Does Debian install via NFS? The soundcard in the 486, which is supposed
> to make the CD drive operational, doesn't, and so, installations need to
> be via NFS or floppies (perish the thought).

Debian *does* do NFS installs.

> Also, from what I understood at the installfest, Debian is a multi-disk
> instal, like Mandrake. Is that correct?

It requires two disks.


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 26 14:34:04 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:34:04 +0800 (WST)
Subject: Distributions - was Re: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <39D0404A.5D04B9DD@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926142418.6668E-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> I neglected to mention, that when Christian showed me the package
> instal, his system did have a GUI desktop....

In fact, one of the features of Debian, is that it has a central "menu"
system which is used by most window managers, and any package can add
itself to /usr/lib/menu, and after running update-menus it will instantly
appear in the application menu of all compatible window managers

I don't know if RedHat does something similar now, but when I last used
RedHat, the menus contained a whole bunch of programs that weren't even
installed, as opposed to reflecting exactly what is currently installed.

> I think this also takes care of your suggestion, Matt.

Why not try installing it yourself?
That way you can judge for yourself it you need guru status in order to
install it, instead of just repeating what you've heard.

If you try it, and find it too difficult, you'll be able to say

"I tried to install Debian 2.2 and I found that when I got to XXX stage,
 it was difficult to understand what to do next so I gave up"

 rather than

"I've heard it is difficult to install"

Also if you try it, and do get stuck at some stage, this mailing list is
only a couple of keystrokes away.
 
> Does Debian install via NFS?

Yes, very easily
In fact most of the Debian systems I set up for WASP's customers I install
via NFS - mainly because I always install the same packages, and I have
those very packages sitting on my NFS server.

btw it is _very_ easy to get Debian to give you a list of packages that
are installed, and then go to a new machine, and tell Debian to install
those packages:

machine1# dpkg --get-selections > packagelist.txt
machine2# dpkg --set-selections < packagelist.txt

> Also, from what I understood at the installfest, Debian is a multi-disk
> instal, like Mandrake. Is that correct?

3 CDs
and once Debian's installed if you want to apt-get install something, it
will tell you what CD it's on.

 - Matt



From christian at amnet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 14:41:20 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:41:20 +0800
Subject: Distributions - was Re: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926142418.6668E-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>; from zombie@wasp.net.au on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 02:34:04PM +0800
References: <39D0404A.5D04B9DD@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926142418.6668E-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000926144119.G24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 02:34:04PM +0800, Matt Kemner wrote:
 
> Also if you try it, and do get stuck at some stage, this mailing list is
> only a couple of keystrokes away.

A *couple* of keystrokes?  That's a little ambitious, isn't it Matt...?

*grin*


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 14:42:24 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:42:24 +0800
Subject: Distributions - was Re: [plug] Red Hat 7
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926142418.6668E-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D04550.4536C8E2@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Matt Kemner wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > I neglected to mention, that when Christian showed me the package
> > instal, his system did have a GUI desktop....
> 
> In fact, one of the features of Debian, is that it has a central "menu"
> system which is used by most window managers, and any package can add
> itself to /usr/lib/menu, and after running update-menus it will instantly
> appear in the application menu of all compatible window managers
> 
> I don't know if RedHat does something similar now, but when I last used
> RedHat, the menus contained a whole bunch of programs that weren't even
> installed, as opposed to reflecting exactly what is currently installed.
> 
> > I think this also takes care of your suggestion, Matt.
> 
> Why not try installing it yourself?
> That way you can judge for yourself it you need guru status in order to
> install it, instead of just repeating what you've heard.
> 
> If you try it, and find it too difficult, you'll be able to say
> 
> "I tried to install Debian 2.2 and I found that when I got to XXX stage,
>  it was difficult to understand what to do next so I gave up"
> 
>  rather than
> 
> "I've heard it is difficult to install"
> 
> Also if you try it, and do get stuck at some stage, this mailing list is
> only a couple of keystrokes away.
> 
> > Does Debian install via NFS?
> 
> Yes, very easily
> In fact most of the Debian systems I set up for WASP's customers I install
> via NFS - mainly because I always install the same packages, and I have
> those very packages sitting on my NFS server.
> 
> btw it is _very_ easy to get Debian to give you a list of packages that
> are installed, and then go to a new machine, and tell Debian to install
> those packages:
> 
> machine1# dpkg --get-selections > packagelist.txt
> machine2# dpkg --set-selections < packagelist.txt
> 
> > Also, from what I understood at the installfest, Debian is a multi-disk
> > instal, like Mandrake. Is that correct?
> 
> 3 CDs
> and once Debian's installed if you want to apt-get install something, it
> will tell you what CD it's on.
> 
>  - Matt

Okay, then, what we need to do now, is get the CD's. I should probably
have asked a bit more about it, and, got a set, at the installfest. How
can we get the CD's?

Is there any problem, installing Debian using NFS, using a CD drive in a
computer that is not running Debian?

Also, how much hard disk space is needed? When we put RH 6.2 on my
computer, from memory, it took about 800MB, apart from the swap
partition. That was setting it up to be used as a development
workstation.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Tue Sep 26 14:01:00 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:01:00 +0800
Subject: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <39D030CA.D8218631@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 01:14:50PM +0800
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002> <00092608231000.00795@eva> <39D02683.5440F721@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000926125951.A15541@nikita.mindsocket.com.au> <39D030CA.D8218631@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000926140100.B15541@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

G'day,

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 01:14:50PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> > Please check:
> > 
> >         http://www.redhat.com/products/software/linux/pl_rhl7.html
> > 
> > for a package listing of rh7. In summary:
> 
> I have looked at that web page.
> 
> We are more interested in PostGreSQl, and not in mySQL. I don't remember
> seeing either PHP, or PostgreSQL, in the package list, though PHP was, I
> think, mentioned, as included in the server edition overview.

Perhaps you should read the package list. Both PostgreSQL and PHP packages
exist in the standard distro.

> Perhaps I should have been more specific in my questioning; for example,
> is the hardware autodetection significantly better? Does it run on a
> 486? (RH 6.0 does, with 16MB RAM.) I saw that it includes a GUI firewall
> setup, for the server edition, but, how good is it?.

Yes, i'm sorry - I haven't used rh7 yet, it's only been out for a very short
time, too short a time for my wimpy modem to download ;)

Does it still run on a 486? Well it's unlikely for redhat to have prevented
486 (and 386) systems from working. Of course, running things like Gnome
on a 486 with 16Mb of RAM is asking for trouble (read: major swapping and slow
as).



Regards,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 26 14:54:53 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:54:53 +0800 (WST)
Subject: Distributions - was Re: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <39D04550.4536C8E2@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926144450.6668F-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> How can we get the CD's? 

You're in Armadale, right?
Is Hilton too far away for you?
If not, contact Chris Crawford, and arrange a set through him.
(chris at bizzpro.com.au)

Or turn up to one of the meetings and arrange a set with myself, or
someone else, beforehand.

> Is there any problem, installing Debian using NFS, using a CD drive in a
> computer that is not running Debian?

Shouldn't be a problem.

I'd say it would be easier to just borrow an IDE CD-ROM from one of
your other systems though (if you have one)

> Also, how much hard disk space is needed?

What do you want to do with it? :)

The linux gateway servers I build tend to use 100-150MB
WASP's servers each have about 300MB installed
My workstation's 13GB drive is almost full :)
(Of which probably 1G or so in Debian packages, the rest is just my
assorted "crap")

> computer, from memory, it took about 800MB, apart from the swap
> partition. That was setting it up to be used as a development
> workstation.

I think you'll get change out of that 800MB with a "development
workstation" Debian install.

 - Matt



From nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au  Tue Sep 26 14:57:20 2000
From: nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Bannon)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:57:20 +0800
Subject: Distributions - was Re: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <39D04550.4536C8E2@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 02:42:24PM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926142418.6668E-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <39D04550.4536C8E2@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000926145720.D43292@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 02:42:24PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
[you may like to snip excess quoted text in future...]
> Okay, then, what we need to do now, is get the CD's. I should probably
> have asked a bit more about it, and, got a set, at the installfest. How
> can we get the CD's?

I imagine someone can burn you a set and bring them to the next
meeting for a nominal fee, or you can get them by mail order.

> Is there any problem, installing Debian using NFS, using a CD drive in a
> computer that is not running Debian?

No... NFS clients can, by and large, talk to NFS servers...

Were you expecting a problem?

> Also, how much hard disk space is needed? When we put RH 6.2 on my
> computer, from memory, it took about 800MB, apart from the swap
> partition. That was setting it up to be used as a development
> workstation.

Depends entirely on how much you install. You can get up and running
on a tenth of that, no worries. No need to preinstall everything, just
put things on as you need them.

Nick.

-- 
  Nick Bannon  | "I made this letter longer than usual because
nick at it.net.au | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal


From steveg at calm.wa.gov.au  Tue Sep 26 14:24:11 2000
From: steveg at calm.wa.gov.au (Steve Grasso)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:24:11 +0800
Subject: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <39D035E0.39A99EE5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
References: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB0183165B@HPACAS17002> <20000926123756.D24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D035E0.39A99EE5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00092615055202.28673@pluto.calm.wa.gov.au>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> Christian wrote:
[snip]
> > 
> > See, if you were running Debian then the prospect of upgrading wouldn't
> > bother you in the slightest...
> 
[inflamitory detritis removed :-P]

> The September 2000 issue of Australian Personal Computer review of the
> more common Linux distributions, says about Linux;
> "Debian GNU/Linux 2.1
> Described as 'Linux for hackers, by hackers, Debian is respected among
> technical users as a compact and well-crafted distribution. It isn't
> user-friendly and it doesn't try to be; it's a hands-on way to run a
> finely tuned operationg system, and demands extensive Linux
> knowledge."..."The desktop is almost non-existent."..."As Debian is
> targeted at the expert Linux user,..."
> 

I wonder if they actually installed it first hand

> Thus, it appears that a user has to be a Linux guru, or, approaching
> guru status.
> 

I'm not and I use it

> And, with what I heard of the results of the Debian installs at the
> installfest, it can be problematic (unless the installer/user is a Linux
> guru-type person).

I'm definately no guru, but I managed to install Debian, with a GUI, on a guy's
machine during the dying minutes of the Installfest, while I was installing
Mandrake on two other machines - no applause, they were basic installs, with
very little additional config done. Having some intelligent info
about the machine, and some idea what the machine's to be used for, I've found
Debian terse but straight forward to install, and a dream to update.

> Also, people who tried to have Mandrake installed, appear to have had
> problems, which, apparently, was why, in some cases, Debian was tried.

What difficulties were encountered? I had a machine where the owner had
elected to have the CDROM on the first IDE controller, and neither RH nor
Mandrake liked booting from hdb - once the CD and the HD controllers were
swapped, Mandrake installed and worked like a dream

> 
> It appears that Red Hat seems to be the distribution for us to use (we
> believe).
> 

If it works for you, go for it! Just don't write off Debian as being too
difficult until you've tried it for yourself.

> I note also, that the APC review said of Mandrake 7.1 "Despite its buggy
> reputation, 

I'd like to know what buggy reputation APC is referring to

Mandrake is more stable than most non-Linux operating
> systems". 

Linux is more stable than most non-Linux operating systems

So, at least, Mandrake is more stable than Win 9x ;) Perhaps
> the bugginess of Mandrake's repute, is the reason for the problems at
> the installfest?

Nope. Not that I'm aware of. At their owners' request, I installed Mandrake
onto 4 computers, none of which you could call "standard" apart from being
Intel architecture, and experienced no difficulty other than the previously
mentioned hda/hdb hold-up.

My 0.02+GST

Steve


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 15:05:38 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:05:38 +0800
Subject: Distributions - was Re: [plug] Red Hat 7
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926144450.6668F-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D04AC2.1060B274@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Matt Kemner wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > How can we get the CD's?
> 
> You're in Armadale, right?
> Is Hilton too far away for you?
> If not, contact Chris Crawford, and arrange a set through him.
> (chris at bizzpro.com.au)

Anne works in Perth, during the daytime.

> 
> Or turn up to one of the meetings and arrange a set with myself, or
> someone else, beforehand.
> 
> > Is there any problem, installing Debian using NFS, using a CD drive in a
> > computer that is not running Debian?
> 
> Shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> I'd say it would be easier to just borrow an IDE CD-ROM from one of
> your other systems though (if you have one)

The problem is that, in a 486, the controller for the CD Drive, is
required to be a soundcard based one, I think; being a 486, it has VESA,
not PCI. The CD ROM controller is not part of the IDE controller card.
We got a soundcard, to try to operate the CD, but it doesn't work.

> 
> > Also, how much hard disk space is needed?
> 
> What do you want to do with it? :)

Find out what it's like to use :)

Probably, put some stuff on it, like GNOME, Netscape, gcc, g77, Anne
might want flex and bison ( I think that's the yacc one), etc. 

> 
> The linux gateway servers I build tend to use 100-150MB
> WASP's servers each have about 300MB installed
> My workstation's 13GB drive is almost full :)
> (Of which probably 1G or so in Debian packages, the rest is just my
> assorted "crap")
> 
> > computer, from memory, it took about 800MB, apart from the swap
> > partition. That was setting it up to be used as a development
> > workstation.
> 
> I think you'll get change out of that 800MB with a "development
> workstation" Debian install.
> 
>  - Matt

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 26 15:14:59 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:14:59 +0800 (WST)
Subject: Distributions - was Re: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <39D04AC2.1060B274@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926150747.6668G-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> Anne works in Perth, during the daytime.

Is she able to swing past Hilton on her way home one night?
(corner South St and Carrington St)
 
> The problem is that, in a 486, the controller for the CD Drive, is
> required to be a soundcard based one,

Why?
being a 486 it has at least one IDE interface, right?
One IDE interface can handle 2 devices - a master and a slave
so you set the HDD up as master, the CDROM up as slave and plug them both
into the IDE interface.

> not PCI. The CD ROM controller is not part of the IDE controller card.

Only if the CDROM is not a normal IDE CDROM

> We got a soundcard, to try to operate the CD, but it doesn't work.

That might be because 
a) the sound card has an interface for a non-IDE cdrom and the CDROM is
   IDE
b) The sound card has an interface for a non-IDE cdrom and the CDROM is
   non-IDE but there either isn't an appropriate driver in the Linux
   Kernel for that CDROM interface or you haven't loaded it with
   the right parameters.

> Probably, put some stuff on it, like GNOME, Netscape, gcc, g77, Anne
> might want flex and bison ( I think that's the yacc one), etc. 

800MB should be sufficient
Netscape is going to amazingly slow on a 486 though.
Gnome might be a trifle slow too.
You might want to try out Windowmaker and Enlightenment while you're at
it.

 - Matt



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 15:28:00 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:28:00 +0800
Subject: Distributions - was Re: [plug] Red Hat 7
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926150747.6668G-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D05000.5C0D65A5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Matt Kemner wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > Anne works in Perth, during the daytime.
> 
> Is she able to swing past Hilton on her way home one night?
> (corner South St and Carrington St)

That's Fremantle. (miles away)

Anne sometimes goes onsite to a place in Osborne Park. Could she get a
copy from you at wasp, sometime?

> 
> > The problem is that, in a 486, the controller for the CD Drive, is
> > required to be a soundcard based one,
> 
> Why?
> being a 486 it has at least one IDE interface, right?
> One IDE interface can handle 2 devices - a master and a slave

Perhaps that's it; from memory, the 486 has a 1.1GB HDD, and a 454MB
HDD.
We keep Win 3.11 on it. (We need to)
Thus, it could be that both sockets are occupied.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From christian at amnet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 15:32:46 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:32:46 +0800
Subject: Distributions - was Re: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <39D05000.5C0D65A5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:28:00PM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926150747.6668G-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <39D05000.5C0D65A5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000926153246.H24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:28:00PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> > Why?
> > being a 486 it has at least one IDE interface, right?
> > One IDE interface can handle 2 devices - a master and a slave
> 
> Perhaps that's it; from memory, the 486 has a 1.1GB HDD, and a 454MB
> HDD.
> We keep Win 3.11 on it. (We need to)
> Thus, it could be that both sockets are occupied.

So what?  Take the Win 3.11 disk out while doing the install and put it
back when when you're done with the CDROM.  Pretty obvious really!


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 26 15:33:42 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:33:42 +0800 (WST)
Subject: Distributions - was Re: [plug] Red Hat 7
In-Reply-To: <39D05000.5C0D65A5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926153138.6668I-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> Anne sometimes goes onsite to a place in Osborne Park. Could she get a
> copy from you at wasp, sometime?

Certainly
Let me know when she's swinging by, and there'll be a set waiting for you.
 
> Perhaps that's it; from memory, the 486 has a 1.1GB HDD, and a 454MB
> HDD.
> We keep Win 3.11 on it. (We need to)
> Thus, it could be that both sockets are occupied.

But you don't need to be able to access Win3.11 while you're installing
Linux, do you?
So temporarily unplug that drive and plug the CDROM in.

 - Matt



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Tue Sep 26 15:40:15 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:40:15 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mandrake's buginess
References: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6357@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D052DF.B80961E@brooks.smileys.net>

Dennis Plester wrote:
> Does anyone out there actually know what is meant by Mandrake's "buggy"
> reputation? (Ref: September APC).

Somebody's been playing with Beta releases.

> What were the Mandrake problems experienced at the Installfest? My run with
> 7.1 has been smooth as, but I have only chucked it on 4 different machines
> of various ages...

Same here. 7.2BETA has some definite issues, most of which I expect to see
evapourate over the next few weeks.

> As for Red Hat's reliability, isn't Mandrake based on Red Hat anyway?

Was. Is now quite independent. Many RPMS work between Mandrake/RH/Caldera/SuSE
and probably others, but sometimes you have to tell RPM to ignore false
dependency issues.

-- 
Windows 98: n.
32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an
8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor,
written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition.


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Tue Sep 26 15:41:39 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:41:39 +0800
Subject: [plug] List gone ballistic
Message-ID: <39D05333.D3CF919C@brooks.smileys.net>

>From about 5-10 messages a day, we're now at over 50. Wonder how that will
settle in?

-- 
the sand remembers
once there was beach and sunshine
but chip is warm too
-- Damon A. Koronakos and Brian Roberts; "High-tech Haikus"


From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 26 15:49:12 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:49:12 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Mandrake's buginess
In-Reply-To: <39D052DF.B80961E@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926154704.6539A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:
> Windows 98: n.
> 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an
> 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor,
> written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition.

Linus help us if Intel ever get around to releasing a IA64 and Microsoft
ever get around to releasing an OS for it. But then, what are the chances?

-Greg



From bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au  Tue Sep 26 15:30:11 2000
From: bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au (Garry)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:30:11 +0800
Subject: [plug] Debian
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926150747.6668G-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926150747.6668G-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <00092615523708.00957@eva>

Brett,

Sorry to hear that you took 3 hrs to travel the 20 odd kms to the Installfest.
Yes, arriving late would have been awkward, with 2 or 3 machines. 

One way to get a set of disks, would be to ask someone who is into Debian to
copy them for you, and post them. BUT, you are far more likely to succeed if
you offer to cover cost of disks and postage etc. I think maybe $10-12 would
cover it. There is 3 disks involved. 

You would then not have to travel at all. 
Or if picking up disks from someone, have 3 of their favourite (ask them) brand of disk in hand. Then, simply read the
documentation for instructions on how to do an installation in a
particular way.

Another way, would be to ask if there is anyone in your area who would be
prepared to help you. I'm sure there would be someone living between
Maddington-Armadale, who, _if asked nicely_, would be prepared to help.

I obtained a set of Debian disks following a chance conversation with Frank at
the Installfest. He copied them for me for the UCC PLUG meeting the next day.
(Thanks again Frank.)  I am interested in learning about Debian, but it may
happen that it doesn't turn out to be my distribution of choice. 

If it doesn't, I'll just donate the 3 disks to the club for the software
library. 

Regards,

Garry.



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 15:54:57 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:54:57 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mandrake's buginess
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926154704.6539A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D05651.E8EFA8D9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

The Thought Assassin wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:
> > Windows 98: n.
> > 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an
> > 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor,
> > written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition.
> 
> Linus help us if Intel ever get around to releasing a IA64 and Microsoft
> ever get around to releasing an OS for it. But then, what are the chances?
> 
> -Greg

Doesn't WinNT 4 have a 64 bit version that runs on DEC Aplha's? Would
there be any difference? (regarding the WinNT, that is, not the Win9x
stuff)

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 15:56:48 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:56:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] Debian
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926150747.6668G-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <00092615523708.00957@eva>
Message-ID: <39D056C0.4281877A@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Garry wrote:
> 
> Brett,
> 
> Sorry to hear that you took 3 hrs to travel the 20 odd kms to the Installfest.
> Yes, arriving late would have been awkward, with 2 or 3 machines.
> 
> One way to get a set of disks, would be to ask someone who is into Debian to
> copy them for you, and post them. BUT, you are far more likely to succeed if
> you offer to cover cost of disks and postage etc. I think maybe $10-12 would
> cover it. There is 3 disks involved.
> 
> You would then not have to travel at all.
> Or if picking up disks from someone, have 3 of their favourite (ask them) brand of disk in hand. Then, simply read the
> documentation for instructions on how to do an installation in a
> particular way.
> 
> Another way, would be to ask if there is anyone in your area who would be
> prepared to help you. I'm sure there would be someone living between
> Maddington-Armadale, who, _if asked nicely_, would be prepared to help.
> 
> I obtained a set of Debian disks following a chance conversation with Frank at
> the Installfest. He copied them for me for the UCC PLUG meeting the next day.
> (Thanks again Frank.)  I am interested in learning about Debian, but it may
> happen that it doesn't turn out to be my distribution of choice.
> 
> If it doesn't, I'll just donate the 3 disks to the club for the software
> library.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Garry.

Thanks for the suggestions, Garry.

It seems to be all tooken care of.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From james at rcpt.to  Tue Sep 26 15:58:05 2000
From: james at rcpt.to (James Bromberger)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:58:05 +0800
Subject: [plug] Debian
In-Reply-To: <00092615523708.00957@eva>; from bigbadbill@dingoblue.net.au on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:30:11PM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926150747.6668G-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <00092615523708.00957@eva>
Message-ID: <20000926155805.A52228@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:30:11PM +0800, Garry wrote:
> One way to get a set of disks, would be to ask someone who is into Debian to
> copy them for you, and post them. BUT, you are far more likely to succeed if
> you offer to cover cost of disks and postage etc. I think maybe $10-12 would
> cover it. There is 3 disks involved. 

Bzzzt. Potato install from floppy is around 10 disks, maybe even 11. It's three 
if you have the rest of the packages available on some other meida , like 
NFS, FTP, web site, CD ROM, or HDD.

> I obtained a set of Debian disks following a chance conversation with Frank at
> the Installfest. He copied them for me for the UCC PLUG meeting the next day.
> (Thanks again Frank.)  I am interested in learning about Debian, but it may
> happen that it doesn't turn out to be my distribution of choice. 
 

-- 
 James Bromberger <james_AT_bromberger.com> www.rcpt.to/~james
   IT, Pelican Manufacturing - www.pelicanmanufacturing.com.au
   Snr Web Systems Admin, JDV - www.jdv.com  *  www.hartleypoynton.com.au

 Remainder moved to http://www.rcpt.to/~james/james/sig.html


From christian at amnet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 16:02:27 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:02:27 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mandrake's buginess
In-Reply-To: <39D05651.E8EFA8D9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:54:57PM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926154704.6539A-100000@live.wasp.net.au> <39D05651.E8EFA8D9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000926160227.I24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:54:57PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
 
> Doesn't WinNT 4 have a 64 bit version that runs on DEC Aplha's? Would
> there be any difference? (regarding the WinNT, that is, not the Win9x
> stuff)

I think they gave up supporting it a while back...  Not exactly sure why
but I think I once heard someone say that it wasn't that popular since
there weren't that many applications.


From leon at lostrealm.com  Tue Sep 26 16:04:14 2000
From: leon at lostrealm.com (Leon Blackwell)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:04:14 +0800
Subject: [plug] Debian
In-Reply-To: <20000926155805.A52228@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>; from james@rcpt.to on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:58:05PM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926150747.6668G-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <00092615523708.00957@eva> <20000926155805.A52228@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20000926160413.A32036@lostrealm.com>

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:58:05PM +0800, James Bromberger wrote:
> Bzzzt. Potato install from floppy is around 10 disks, maybe even 11. It's three 
> if you have the rest of the packages available on some other meida , like 
> NFS, FTP, web site, CD ROM, or HDD.

Erm...  (*bzzzt* -- physical challenge?)
I think maybe he meant *compact* discs -- not *floppy* discs...  :)

In that case, it is most definitely three, unless you're one of
the unluckies who can not boot directly from their CDROM drive.
Although, in that case, it's still  really only 3 CDs, since the
bootstrap floppy can be created directly from the first CD.



-- 
 +----------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Leon Blackwell                       mailto:leon at lostrealm.com |
 | http://www.lostrealm.com/                         ICQ - 424725 |
 +----------------------------------------------------------------+


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 26 16:05:37 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:05:37 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Debian
In-Reply-To: <20000926155805.A52228@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926155914.6668J-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, James Bromberger wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:30:11PM +0800, Garry wrote:
> > There is 3 disks involved. 
> 
> Bzzzt. Potato install from floppy is around 10 disks, maybe even 11.

I think Garry meant to say Discs (as in the Compact variety) not Disks (as
in the floppy variety)

> It's three if you have the rest of the packages available on some other
> meida , like NFS, FTP, web site, CD ROM, or HDD. 

My count is either 2 or 5.

You need at least 2 (rescue + root) if you can access the rest from
CD-ROM or HDD, or you have compiled your ethernet driver into the kernel
on the rescue floppy, otherwise you'll need at least 5
(rescue+root and the 3 driver disks) in order to get your ethernet card
going.

It's not as much of a chore as people make it out to be though.

 - Matt<fond memory of installing Slackware with 15 disks>



From nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au  Tue Sep 26 16:07:36 2000
From: nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Bannon)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:07:36 +0800
Subject: NT (was Re: [plug] Mandrake's buginess)
In-Reply-To: <39D05651.E8EFA8D9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:54:57PM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926154704.6539A-100000@live.wasp.net.au> <39D05651.E8EFA8D9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000926160736.E43292@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:54:57PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> Doesn't WinNT 4 have a 64 bit version that runs on DEC Aplha's? Would
> there be any difference? (regarding the WinNT, that is, not the Win9x
> stuff)

Not any more, not that it ever made much use of the 64-bitted-ness
of the Alpha.

NT was brought out as a revolutionary approach to Windows, chopping
out all the old DOS-based Intel dependencies and having a nice,
clean Hardware Abstraction Layer.

It's therefore been very amusing over the years to watch gaping holes
get punched through the HAL for short term performance gains, and
the extra platforms drop off one by one. Once, NT was supported on
i386, MIPS, PowerPC and Alpha - now they're back to i386 only again,
with the vague possibility of the Unobtaininum ia64 happening one
day...

Nick.
PS: Please control your quoting...

-- 
  Nick Bannon  | "I made this letter longer than usual because
nick at it.net.au | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 16:15:16 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:15:16 +0800
Subject: NT (was Re: [plug] Mandrake's buginess)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926154704.6539A-100000@live.wasp.net.au> <39D05651.E8EFA8D9@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000926160736.E43292@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <39D05B14.1A7441A4@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Nick Bannon wrote:
> 

<snip>

> Nick.
> PS: Please control your quoting...
> 
> --
>   Nick Bannon  | "I made this letter longer than usual because
> nick at it.net.au | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal

I thought I had...
-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From myk at golden.wattle.id.au  Tue Sep 26 16:20:58 2000
From: myk at golden.wattle.id.au (Mike Holland)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:20:58 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] PDA's
In-Reply-To: <00091818084900.01025@quag2>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261612550.1956-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>

On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Bradley Woodward wrote:

> On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Christian wrote:
> 
> > At risk of sounding controversial, why do you want a handheld that runs
> > Linux?  If it's just for the cool factor/hack value then fair enough.
> 
> Well, two reasons.  I do want one for the normal PDA things, such as address 
> books, hand held diary, that sort of thing.  The main reason I wanted a linux 
> version was that I want to try and develop some software for it.

No problem with a Palm - there seems to be lots of Linux software for
Palm, both for connectivity and software development. Well I hope so, as I
just bought the new Palm m100.
  I think the Palm has succeeded so well because it is fairly "open". It
is easy for anybody to write software for it.
 
> Now to beat up on the budget and find the cash.

m100 is only $299 from au.buy.com. That cant last with the AUD plummet.
 

-- 
Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
                          --==--



From bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au  Tue Sep 26 16:23:30 2000
From: bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au (Garry)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:23:30 +0800
Subject: [plug] Debian
In-Reply-To: <20000926160413.A32036@lostrealm.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926150747.6668G-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <20000926155805.A52228@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20000926160413.A32036@lostrealm.com>
Message-ID: <00092616272509.00957@eva>

People still talk in terms of floppies? 

I'll count myself lucky to not have been flamed
on the difficulty interfacing 45s and 78s to the PC!    ;^)=

Garry.

 > Erm...  (*bzzzt* --
physical challenge?) > I think maybe he meant *compact* discs -- not *floppy*
discs...  :) > -------------------------+


From support2 at crystal.com.au  Tue Sep 26 16:31:15 2000
From: support2 at crystal.com.au (Support)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:31:15 +0800
Subject: [plug] Re: Isp_Watch
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926150747.6668G-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <20000926155805.A52228@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <20000926160413.A32036@lostrealm.com> <00092616272509.00957@eva>
Message-ID: <00e301c02794$235cc7e0$1a7765cb@user>

Hi guys  nice to join your list :)

Any of you guys used isp_watch ??
if so  i have a prob that doesnt seem to come up when i start it in -d

this is what happens when i start it

isp_watch-2.0.5]$ ./isp_watch -d
Loading config
Loading accounts to avoid
Loading modems
Loading Immunities
Loading Time restrictions
 Pid     Line     User        Time
----------------------------------------
Direct Serial (E3)
Direct Serial (E4)
Direct Serial (E5)
Direct Serial (E6)
Direct Serial (E7)
Direct Serial (E8)

and it seems to stop there  ive gone over the config serveral time   and
this is the modem config

# $Header: /usr/src/cvsroot/darkemane/watcher/conf/modems.conf,v 1.4
1999/12/21 06:47:47 darke Exp $
# basically put the bits of the tty* line without the tty in here
# my @modem_list = ('p7',  'p4',  'pc', 'pd');

my @modem_list = ('E0',  'E1',  'E2',  'E3',  'E4',  'E5',  'E6',  'E7',
'E8',  'E9',  'Ea',  'Eb',  'Ec',  'Ed',  'Ee',
 'Ef',  'F0',  'F2',  'F3',  'F4',  'F5',  'F6',  'F7',  'F8',  'F9',  'Fa',
'Fb',  'Fc',  'Fd',  'Fe',  'Ff');

print "Loading modems\n" if $debug;
print "";

thanks guys for any help you can give




From sbaker at icg.net.au  Tue Sep 26 17:20:58 2000
From: sbaker at icg.net.au (Steve Baker)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:20:58 +0800
Subject: NT (was Re: [plug] Mandrake's buginess)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926154704.6539A-100000@live.wasp.net.au> <39D05651.E8EFA8D9@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000926160736.E43292@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <031d01c0279b$26ec2c00$65140a0a@sg.mercatela.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Bannon" <nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Tuesday, 26 September 2000 16:07
Subject: NT (was Re: [plug] Mandrake's buginess)


> On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:54:57PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> > Doesn't WinNT 4 have a 64 bit version that runs on DEC Aplha's? Would
> > there be any difference? (regarding the WinNT, that is, not the Win9x
> > stuff)
>
> Not any more, not that it ever made much use of the 64-bitted-ness
> of the Alpha.
>

I remember hearing something (years ago) about the Alpha having a 32-bit
mode.  I think a lot of Alpha-NT ran in that mode, only the HAL and parts of
the kernel were 64 bit.  Or maybe that was a 'viscous' rumour started by
NT-haters.  Wouldn't surprise me if it were true though - it would be
typical of Microsoft forcing the world to conform to their idea of standard.

Regards,
Steve
--
Steve Baker




From cwilliam at erggroup.com  Tue Sep 26 17:19:06 2000
From: cwilliam at erggroup.com (cwilliam at erggroup.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:19:06 +0800
Subject: NT (was Re: [plug] Mandrake's buginess)
Message-ID: <OF8DCBE3DD.BE114A65-ON48256966.0032D77E@erggroup.com>


I have an ill fated DEC alpha XL266 - it ran NT ( now linux) but it was a
32 bit version not 64.

All applications ran 32 bit -NT never used the full power . OT - When I
purchased it I was told it would run the same apps as a intel - same old
story of M$ ripping of the punter, Alpha NT requires applications ported to
alphaNT as it has minor similarity with is lesser (intel) cousin.




"Steve Baker" <sbaker at icg.net.au> on 09/26/2000 05:20:58 PM

Please respond to plug at plug.linux.org.au

To:   <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
cc:

Subject:  Re: NT (was Re: [plug] Mandrake's buginess)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Bannon" <nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Tuesday, 26 September 2000 16:07
Subject: NT (was Re: [plug] Mandrake's buginess)


> On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:54:57PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> > Doesn't WinNT 4 have a 64 bit version that runs on DEC Aplha's? Would
> > there be any difference? (regarding the WinNT, that is, not the Win9x
> > stuff)
>
> Not any more, not that it ever made much use of the 64-bitted-ness
> of the Alpha.
>

I remember hearing something (years ago) about the Alpha having a 32-bit
mode.  I think a lot of Alpha-NT ran in that mode, only the HAL and parts
of
the kernel were 64 bit.  Or maybe that was a 'viscous' rumour started by
NT-haters.  Wouldn't surprise me if it were true though - it would be
typical of Microsoft forcing the world to conform to their idea of
standard.

Regards,
Steve
--
Steve Baker









---------------------------- ERG Group --------------------------
 The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential
 and may only be read by the intended recipient.
-----------------------------------------------------------------



From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 26 17:24:52 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:24:52 +0800 (WST)
Subject: NT (was Re: [plug] Mandrake's buginess)
In-Reply-To: <OF8DCBE3DD.BE114A65-ON48256966.0032D77E@erggroup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926172303.6668M-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 cwilliam at erggroup.com wrote:

> story of M$ ripping of the punter, Alpha NT requires applications ported to
> alphaNT as it has minor similarity with is lesser (intel) cousin.
 
Didn't DEC write an Intel emulator called FX/32 that would allow you to
run Wintel programs on Alpha NT?

I'm sure there was/is one for AlphaLinux too

 - Matt



From cwilliam at erggroup.com  Tue Sep 26 17:28:29 2000
From: cwilliam at erggroup.com (cwilliam at erggroup.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:28:29 +0800
Subject: NT (was Re: [plug] Mandrake's buginess)
Message-ID: <OF1A54C9E8.9A605F8B-ON48256966.0033D98F@erggroup.com>


They did indeed  - it took hours to recompile/replace library files,
doubled in size all applications and then.....didnt work. (sound
farmiliar??;-)

Does anyone have any experience with the same beast for linux?




Matt Kemner <zombie at wasp.net.au> on 09/26/2000 05:24:52 PM

Please respond to plug at plug.linux.org.au

To:   plug at plug.linux.org.au
cc:

Subject:  Re: NT (was Re: [plug] Mandrake's buginess)


On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 cwilliam at erggroup.com wrote:

> story of M$ ripping of the punter, Alpha NT requires applications ported
to
> alphaNT as it has minor similarity with is lesser (intel) cousin.

Didn't DEC write an Intel emulator called FX/32 that would allow you to
run Wintel programs on Alpha NT?

I'm sure there was/is one for AlphaLinux too

 - Matt








---------------------------- ERG Group --------------------------
 The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential
 and may only be read by the intended recipient.
-----------------------------------------------------------------



From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 26 17:45:27 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:45:27 +0800 (WST)
Subject: NT (was Re: [plug] Mandrake's buginess)
In-Reply-To: <OF1A54C9E8.9A605F8B-ON48256966.0033D98F@erggroup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926174333.6668N-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 cwilliam at erggroup.com wrote:

> Does anyone have any experience with the same beast for linux?

Not first-hand no, but from following the debian-alpha list for a while I
got the impression that on recent Alphas it works really well, but on the
2106x Alphas it's a bit too slow.

 - Matt



From subb3 at attglobal.net  Tue Sep 26 14:38:25 2000
From: subb3 at attglobal.net (Subba Rao)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 06:38:25 +0000
Subject: [plug] Limits of grep?
Message-ID: <20000926063825.A5461@attglobal.net>

Hi

I have a directory of 10000+ text files and would like to search for
some strings in these files. When I tried using "grep" command with an
asterisk, I get the error message somthing to the effect,

	"File argument list too long"

What is the file argument limit for grep? I guess you need the grep source
for this. I did not find any information in the man page.

Are there any other recommended tools to search through such large list of
files?

Thank you in advance.

Subba Rao
subb3 at attglobal.net
http://pws.prserv.net/truemax/


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Tue Sep 26 18:42:25 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:42:25 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Limits of grep?
In-Reply-To: <20000926063825.A5461@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926184125.6668P-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Subba Rao wrote:

> I have a directory of 10000+ text files and would like to search for

> Are there any other recommended tools to search through such large list of
> files?

for X in *
do
  grep -q textstring $X && echo FOUND textstring in $X
done

 - Matt



From jeffw at mbox.com.au  Tue Sep 26 19:00:31 2000
From: jeffw at mbox.com.au (jeffw at mbox.com.au)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:00:31 +0800
Subject: [plug] Databases
Message-ID: <3e7c5c3ebc50.3ebc503e7c5c@mbox.com.au>

At my work we have the customer database on Access which makes it 
entirely horrible to access from our linux server. We are looking at 
porting it across to a linux based database. I was wanting to know 
whether anyone had experience in this and has tips for making it least 
painful. Also, what database would be best to use? mysql, postgresql or 
something else?

Thanks

Jeff



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Tue Sep 26 19:20:44 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:20:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] Limits of grep?
References: <20000926063825.A5461@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <39D0868C.4F9AC747@brooks.smileys.net>

Subba Rao wrote:
> I have a directory of 10000+ text files and would like to search for
> some strings in these files.

    find /path/to/dir -exec grep -H {} \;

Type ``man find'' to discover how to limit it to one directory level (it
recurses by default), do ordinary files only, date ranges etc etc ad
headspinnum...

-- 
Here is Edward User, crashing Office now, crash, crash, crash,
and a smack of his head, under Windows. It is, as far as he
knows, the only way of computing, but sometimes he feels that
there really is another way, if only he could stop crashing
for a moment and think of it. -- A.A. Milne paraphrased


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Tue Sep 26 19:24:57 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:24:57 +0800
Subject: [plug] Databases
References: <3e7c5c3ebc50.3ebc503e7c5c@mbox.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D08789.EF397B7A@brooks.smileys.net>

jeffw at mbox.com.au wrote:
> At my work we have the customer database on Access which makes it
> entirely horrible to access from our linux server.

Agree. And sometimes even from a Windows server. (-:

> We are looking at
> porting it across to a linux based database. I was wanting to know
> whether anyone had experience in this and has tips for making it least
> painful. Also, what database would be best to use? mysql, postgresql or
> something else?

If going for MySQL, think about using it as MaxSQL (see http://www.maxsql.com/
for details). Consider Interbase as well. My money's on PostgreSQL, but to each
their own, variety is the spice of life (-:

These all have ODBC drivers, making it feasible to migrate by degrees, that is,
to continue using Access but push stuff across to proper SQL a bit at a time,
webify it or whatever and eventually Access can be left to atrophy.

-- 
"If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything."
		-- Abraham Lincoln


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Tue Sep 26 19:28:24 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:28:24 +0800
Subject: [plug] Re: [OT] Alpha NT
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926154704.6539A-100000@live.wasp.net.au> <39D05651.E8EFA8D9@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000926160736.E43292@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <031d01c0279b$26ec2c00$65140a0a@sg.mercatela.com>
Message-ID: <39D08858.36F3AAC8@brooks.smileys.net>

Steve Baker wrote:
> I remember hearing something (years ago) about the Alpha having a 32-bit
> mode.  I think a lot of Alpha-NT ran in that mode, only the HAL and parts of
> the kernel were 64 bit.

Compaq simply *gave*up* trying to make NT run on Alpha in 64-bit mode. Oops.
Other than the base necessities for making all of that 32-bit code run, 64-bit
Alpha NT is a myth.

-- 
There is no mechanical problem so difficult that it cannot be
solved by brute strength and ignorance. -- William's Law


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Tue Sep 26 19:32:24 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:32:24 +0800
Subject: [plug] [OT] Place yer bets: NT on IA64
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926154704.6539A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D08948.BBF9EA7B@brooks.smileys.net>

The Thought Assassin wrote:
>On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Leon Brooks wrote:
>> Windows 98: n.
>> 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an
>> 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor,
>> written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition.

> Linus help us if Intel ever get around to releasing a IA64 and Microsoft
> ever get around to releasing an OS for it. But then, what are the chances?

High. But I betcha that even if Intel's final take on IA64 includes some
compatibility stuff, Wintanium will break most apps. Again. And Linux will run
on it first. Again. As long as it runs katomic, Aiyana (my 10yog) will be happy.

-- 
I don't want the world, I just want your half.


From sharpe at ns.aus.com  Tue Sep 26 14:25:39 2000
From: sharpe at ns.aus.com (Richard Sharpe)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:25:39 +0900
Subject: [plug] Limits of grep?
In-Reply-To: <20000926063825.A5461@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000926152539.00a41420@203.16.214.248>

Hi,

Does anyone recognize this message?

It was posted to both these lists. I wonder how many other lists it was
posted to? I know that a number of people have responded to Mr Rao's
request on both lists, and wonder if he really needs to waste so many
people's time.

I remember an old maxim from Usenet days: Many people take, few give.

At 06:38 AM 9/26/00 +0000, Subba Rao <subb3 at attglobal.net> wrote:
>Hi
>
>I have a directory of 10000+ text files and would like to search for
>some strings in these files. When I tried using "grep" command with an
>asterisk, I get the error message somthing to the effect,
>
>	"File argument list too long"
>
>What is the file argument limit for grep? I guess you need the grep source
>for this. I did not find any information in the man page.
>
>Are there any other recommended tools to search through such large list of
>files?
>
>Thank you in advance.
>
>Subba Rao
>subb3 at attglobal.net
>http://pws.prserv.net/truemax/
>
>

Regards
-------
Richard Sharpe, sharpe at ns.aus.com
Samba (Team member, www.samba.org), Ethereal (Team member, www.zing.org)
Contributing author, SAMS Teach Yourself Samba in 24 Hours
Author, Special Edition, Using Samba




From subs at linuxworld.com.au  Tue Sep 26 19:50:00 2000
From: subs at linuxworld.com.au (subs)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:50:00 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [plug] Databases
In-Reply-To: <3e7c5c3ebc50.3ebc503e7c5c@mbox.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009262247140.29511-100000@linuxworld.com.au>

Jeff,

I have had experience in this myself -- moving data from Access, Oracle
and Notes. Postgres does the trick nicely.

Gavin Sherry
LinuxWorld Editor
http://www.linuxworld.com.au



From alpha at indigo.net.au  Tue Sep 26 20:00:24 2000
From: alpha at indigo.net.au (Joshua Pierre)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:00:24 +0800
Subject: [plug] List gone ballistic
In-Reply-To: <39D05333.D3CF919C@brooks.smileys.net>; from leon@brooks.smileys.net on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:41:39PM +0800
References: <39D05333.D3CF919C@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <20000926200024.A1362@indigo.net.au>

Leon,

I know what you mean.. takes to long to fetch my mail now :)

Regards,

Josh


From dave969 at iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 04:24:19 2000
From: dave969 at iinet.net.au (Dave T Burbidge)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:24:19 +0000
Subject: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D105F3.CBCC733D@iinet.net.au>

<snip>
Greetings!

Umm ... is iiNet Linux friendly? OK, so I can log in, but one time I
couldn't connect, I rang the help-line, and they wouldn't help me 'cause
I was using a linux box ... once I swapped the modem across to the 95
box and proved that wouldn't happen either, they passed me onto the
expert section (so they soon picked I knew what I was talking about :) 
... it turned out to be a Telstra problem ...

Also, I've seen a couple of distro's of Linux for sale in Harvey Morman
(OK, so I was dragged in by a friend looking for a decent video card ...
we didn't stay long :)

Dave


From kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au  Tue Sep 26 20:41:03 2000
From: kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au (Beau Kuiper)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:41:03 +0800
Subject: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
In-Reply-To: <39D105F3.CBCC733D@iinet.net.au>
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au> <39D105F3.CBCC733D@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00092620450201.00138@darkstar>

On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Dave T Burbidge wrote:
> <snip>
> Greetings!
> 
> Umm ... is iiNet Linux friendly? OK, so I can log in, but one time I

iiNet is actually a very confused and strange company. So much so I am actually
suprised anything gets done there. I always dread communicating with them. They
actually use linux a fair bit for their equipment (their cityspan client side
box is a small linux box).

I would avoid iiNet unless there is a good reason not to do so for the time
being,

Beau Kuiper
kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au


From shane at digiturbo.com.au  Tue Sep 26 20:52:42 2000
From: shane at digiturbo.com.au (Shane Spina)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:52:42 +0800
Subject: Fw: [plug] Databases
Message-ID: <003901c027b8$ab689f00$d2a3a8c0@bizzpro.com.au>

Has anyone had any luck with the Postgres ODBC drivers?  I had a copy of the
source.. compiled it on a V C++ system but couldn't connect to the
database... i am not sure whether it was a problem with the driver or my
postgres setup...

TIA

Shane

----- Original Message -----
From: Leon Brooks <leon at brooks.smileys.net>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: [plug] Databases


> jeffw at mbox.com.au wrote:
> > At my work we have the customer database on Access which makes it
> > entirely horrible to access from our linux server.
>
> Agree. And sometimes even from a Windows server. (-:
>
> > We are looking at
> > porting it across to a linux based database. I was wanting to know
> > whether anyone had experience in this and has tips for making it least
> > painful. Also, what database would be best to use? mysql, postgresql or
> > something else?
>
> If going for MySQL, think about using it as MaxSQL (see
http://www.maxsql.com/
> for details). Consider Interbase as well. My money's on PostgreSQL, but to
each
> their own, variety is the spice of life (-:
>
> These all have ODBC drivers, making it feasible to migrate by degrees,
that is,
> to continue using Access but push stuff across to proper SQL a bit at a
time,
> webify it or whatever and eventually Access can be left to atrophy.
>
> --
> "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything."
> -- Abraham Lincoln
>
>



From colin at durbanet.co.za  Tue Sep 26 20:58:55 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:58:55 +0800
Subject: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au> <39D105F3.CBCC733D@iinet.net.au> <00092620450201.00138@darkstar>
Message-ID: <39D09D8F.F7A6AAC8@durbanet.co.za>

Beau Kuiper wrote:
> iiNet is actually a very confused and strange company. So much so I am actually
> suprised anything gets done there. I always dread communicating with them. They
> actually use linux a fair bit for their equipment (their cityspan client side
> box is a small linux box).

Our connection is through iiNet. I haven't needed their help much, but
when I have (e.g. to get the name of their NTP server) they've been
pretty helpful. I haven't tried any Linux-specific questions on them,
though.

Is anyone here using CitySpan, and if so how reliable is it, and how
consistent are the speeds in inclement weather? We're on a 24-hr modem
link, and are not in an ADSL-capable area, so CitySpan crosses my mind
(although it would make my wallet cross) every now and then. That the
box is Linux-based sounds promising.

Colin


From hooker at opera.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 21:06:24 2000
From: hooker at opera.iinet.net.au (Hook)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:06:24 +0800
Subject: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au> <39D105F3.CBCC733D@iinet.net.au> <00092620450201.00138@darkstar>
Message-ID: <000f01c027ba$935fbfe0$0c00a8c0@hathor>

> On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Dave T Burbidge wrote:
> > <snip>
> > Greetings!
> >
> > Umm ... is iiNet Linux friendly? OK, so I can log in, but one time I
>
> iiNet is actually a very confused and strange company. So much so I am
actually
> suprised anything gets done there. I always dread communicating with them.
They
> actually use linux a fair bit for their equipment (their cityspan client
side
> box is a small linux box).

They actually run pretty much *everything* on linux. Their servers (after
all, the only other realistic choice would be one of the BSD variants), dev
boxes and much of the interally used hardware with the obvious exception of
routers/switches. Typically, ISP support desks rarely know much about any
UNIX variant because Windows is generally simpler to set up, and *still*
causes customers to have problems. The options for mistakes with Linux are
much broader.

I use Linux as a gateway, occasionally have problems, and occasionally have
to call support with a specific question which always gets shunted to second
line support. The last one related to what was clearly a Telstra issue and,
to be fair, they did their best, and were far simpler to deal with the
Telstra themselves.

> I would avoid iiNet unless there is a good reason not to do so for the
time
> being,

Why do you say that Beau?

Paul



From hooker at opera.iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 21:12:44 2000
From: hooker at opera.iinet.net.au (Hook)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:12:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au> <39D105F3.CBCC733D@iinet.net.au> <00092620450201.00138@darkstar> <39D09D8F.F7A6AAC8@durbanet.co.za>
Message-ID: <002801c027bb$7742ad80$0c00a8c0@hathor>

> Beau Kuiper wrote:
> > iiNet is actually a very confused and strange company. So much so I am
actually
> > suprised anything gets done there. I always dread communicating with
them. They
> > actually use linux a fair bit for their equipment (their cityspan client
side
> > box is a small linux box).
>
> Our connection is through iiNet. I haven't needed their help much, but
> when I have (e.g. to get the name of their NTP server) they've been
> pretty helpful. I haven't tried any Linux-specific questions on them,
> though.
>
> Is anyone here using CitySpan, and if so how reliable is it, and how
> consistent are the speeds in inclement weather? We're on a 24-hr modem
> link, and are not in an ADSL-capable area, so CitySpan crosses my mind
> (although it would make my wallet cross) every now and then. That the
> box is Linux-based sounds promising.

Remember that CitySpan doesn't cover all of Perth either ! The coverage maps
are available from the iinet web site somewhere I think (shout if you need a
pointer and I'll try & find out tomorrow), and basically cover Freo to
Cannington, the CBD and a couple of areas north of the river.  I think there
there are 5 or 6 base stations, and you have to be within line of sight, and
a few kms to be able to use it.

In some ways it may be better than ADSL - the in and out bandwidth is
symmetrical, and although you share a 2 Mb pipe, at the moment there
shouldn't be that much congestion.  Susceptability to weather is a good
question though.

Paul



From billc at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 26 21:26:21 2000
From: billc at iinet.net.au (Bill Cullen)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:26:21 +0800
Subject: [plug] Limits of grep?
References: <20000926063825.A5461@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <39D0A3FD.13D61C0A@iinet.net.au>

Subba Rao wrote:
> I have a directory of 10000+ text files and would like to search for
> some strings in these files. When I tried using "grep" command with an
> asterisk, I get the error message somthing to the effect,
> 
>         "File argument list too long"
> 
> What is the file argument limit for grep? I guess you need the grep source
> for this. I did not find any information in the man page.
> 
> Are there any other recommended tools to search through such large list of
> files?

This isn't a grep error, it's actually a shell error message.
You can get the same error by cd'ing to the directory and then
typing

    ls *

It's very important to understand that (unlike M$-DOS) the shell
exands wildcards and variables and then passes the expanded list
on to the program. For example, if I have a directory with the
files fred1 and fred2 and then I enter the command

    ls fred*

the ls program will actually receive two command line parameters:
fred1 and fred2. Similarly, if I have an environment variable
VAR1=fred and then do the command

    wc $VAR1

then the wc program will actually get passed the command line
parameter fred rather than $VAR1. 

There are several ways to get around the argument too long error:

  1. use the for statement as someone has suggested
  2. use the find statement as someone else has suggested
  3. try to break the list of files up a bit (ie a*)
  4. use the xargs command (which I think might be the best 
     solution in this case). ie. to list the names of all the
     files with the string "I'm a teapot"
   
         ls | xargs grep -l "I'm a teapot"

I'd take a look in my "UNIX Power Tools" book and be more specific
but unfortunately it's at work.
 
Good Luck,

Bill Cullen
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
  Bill Cullen, ENFP, billc at wantree.com.au, Perth, Western Australia
               Life's too important to take seriously.
=====================================================================


From dave969 at iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 05:19:13 2000
From: dave969 at iinet.net.au (Dave T Burbidge)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:19:13 +0000
Subject: [plug] Web Spam
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20000919120831.03a2da30@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D112D1.D46C4640@iinet.net.au>

With a simple line of Javascript, you can divert them ANYWHERE <evil
grin>

skribe wrote:
> 
> sphc-stage.xt3.com.au has the following link on their site:
> 
> http://amber/SPHCDev/images/sitemap/sm-hline.gif
> 
> This unfortunately defaults to my domain which of course means I'm getting
> barraged with  404 errors from my error catching script.  I've written to
> the webmaster but over the last 15 mins I've received over 30 hits.  I'm
> fairly sure the webmaster is just testing (although I've yet to receive any
> response) but it's driving me up the wall.  Is there anything I can do
> apart from turning off my error catching script?
> 
-- 
Web:    http://www.iinet.net.au/~dave969
ICQ:    19634125
----------------------------------------

This Murphy person has a LOT to answer for :)


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Tue Sep 26 21:20:56 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:20:56 +0800
Subject: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au> <39D105F3.CBCC733D@iinet.net.au> <00092620450201.00138@darkstar> <000f01c027ba$935fbfe0$0c00a8c0@hathor>
Message-ID: <39D0A2B8.589A492F@brooks.smileys.net>

Hook wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Dave T Burbidge wrote:
> > > <snip>
> > > Greetings!
> > >
> > > Umm ... is iiNet Linux friendly? OK, so I can log in, but one time I
> >
> > iiNet is actually a very confused and strange company. So much so I am
> actually
> > suprised anything gets done there. I always dread communicating with them.
> They
> > actually use linux a fair bit for their equipment (their cityspan client
> side
> > box is a small linux box).
> 
> They actually run pretty much *everything* on linux.

That's how they started out. They actually made some pretty significant
contributions to Squid development back in the early days, defined as ``the days
when even their front-desk machines all ran Linux'' and
michael at metal.iinet.net.au had a hand in running things. Since Mike cashed in
and shipped out, iiNet's become pretty disoriented.

I'm reasonably sure that everyone on the list who has had any serious hand in
running an ISP can recall having customers join their ISP mainly beause ``you're
not owned by iiNet''. Sad but true. I think most orgnisations have a critical
mass, above which they cry out for parthenogenisis and meanwhile wallow in
disorganisation. AOL immediately flashes to mind.

-- 
"Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random digits
is, of course, in a state of sin."
    -- John Von Neumann


From kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au  Tue Sep 26 21:07:14 2000
From: kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au (Beau Kuiper)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:07:14 +0800
Subject: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
In-Reply-To: <39D09D8F.F7A6AAC8@durbanet.co.za>
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au> <00092620450201.00138@darkstar> <39D09D8F.F7A6AAC8@durbanet.co.za>
Message-ID: <00092621211302.00138@darkstar>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Colin Muller wrote:
> Beau Kuiper wrote:
> > iiNet is actually a very confused and strange company. So much so I am actually
> > suprised anything gets done there. I always dread communicating with them. They
> > actually use linux a fair bit for their equipment (their cityspan client side
> > box is a small linux box).
> 
> Our connection is through iiNet. I haven't needed their help much, but
> when I have (e.g. to get the name of their NTP server) they've been
> pretty helpful. I haven't tried any Linux-specific questions on them,
> though.

Their support isn't terrible, but they can get very simple things very wrong
occasionally. It is very frustrating. One example (that is probably still
there), is that when we were using modems, the script I wrote needed to take
into count two different sets of texts and types of logins. IInet denied this,
dispite having miles of chat logs saying otherwise.

> 
> Is anyone here using CitySpan, and if so how reliable is it, and how
> consistent are the speeds in inclement weather? We're on a 24-hr modem
> link, and are not in an ADSL-capable area, so CitySpan crosses my mind
> (although it would make my wallet cross) every now and then. That the
> box is Linux-based sounds promising.

I've set up and help maintain servers that use cityspan as their internet
connection.

Cityspan is sort of OK, it is fast and reasonably cheap when it works. It is a
real pain when it doesn't though. Weather does seems to not affect it much. The
linux box they use is not accessable by the user, and simply converts the
connection to an ethernet connection, so it works with any operating system.

Cityspan gives you 1 permanate internet address and you can get secondary host
name server support from iiNet. I recommend you maintain your own primary DNS
since getting iiNet to change settings for you is akin to tearing your own hair
out with a jackhammer. 

iiNet are ussually good in helping with their parts of hardware, but everything
after that is the user's responsibility (or costs money). Since you connect to
cityspan using POE (plain old ethernet) via a crossover cable, there should be
few problems on the user side.

Beau Kuiper
kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au


From pere at hungry.com  Tue Sep 26 21:22:11 2000
From: pere at hungry.com (Petter Reinholdtsen)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:22:11 +0800
Subject: [plug] Databases
Message-ID: <200009261322.VAA07570@xena.ee.uwa.edu.au>

[Shane Spina]
> Has anyone had any luck with the Postgres ODBC drivers?  I had a
> copy of the source.. compiled it on a V C++ system but couldn't
> connect to the database... i am not sure whether it was a problem
> with the driver or my postgres setup...

Two years ago I used the PostgreSQL ODBC driver to extract the
database definition and draw the relation diagram using a windows
tool.  I did not try to compile the ODBC driver my self, and it worked
like a charm. :-)

No idea what the windows program was called.  PostgreSQL also have
pgaccess, a must when developing databases.  I'm still looking for
similar tools for mysql.  Anyone know if they exists?
-- 
##>  Petter Reinholdtsen <##    | pere at td.org.uit.no
 O-  <SCRIPT Language="Javascript">window.close()</SCRIPT>
http://www.hungry.com/~pere/    | Go Mozilla, go! Go!


From keithmag at cs.curtin.edu.au  Wed Sep 27 07:42:53 2000
From: keithmag at cs.curtin.edu.au (Russell Keith-Magee)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:42:53 +0800
Subject: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au> <00092620450201.00138@darkstar> <39D09D8F.F7A6AAC8@durbanet.co.za> <00092621211302.00138@darkstar>
Message-ID: <39D1347D.6AB402AA@cs.curtin.edu.au>

Beau Kuiper wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Colin Muller wrote:
> > Beau Kuiper wrote:
> > > iiNet is actually a very confused and strange company. So much so I am actually
> > > suprised anything gets done there. I always dread communicating with them. They
> > > actually use linux a fair bit for their equipment (their cityspan client side
> > > box is a small linux box).
> >
> > Our connection is through iiNet. I haven't needed their help much, but
> > when I have (e.g. to get the name of their NTP server) they've been
> > pretty helpful. I haven't tried any Linux-specific questions on them,
> > though.
> 
> Their support isn't terrible, but they can get very simple things very wrong
> occasionally. It is very frustrating. One example (that is probably still
> there), is that when we were using modems, the script I wrote needed to take
> into count two different sets of texts and types of logins. IInet denied this,
> dispite having miles of chat logs saying otherwise.

In my experience, it depends who you talk to. The people who answer the
phones are, for the most part, complete lemmings (there are exceptions).
They have been taught the Win95 party line, and how to solve the most
common service problems, but that's all they know. However, if you can
convince the person who answers the phone to transfer your call to
someone who knows whats going on, the help gets exponentially better. 

Annoying as this is, keep in mind that the first layer of operators is
there to save the sanity of the "people who know". After all, 95% of the
phone calls to a large commercial ISP help desk will go something like:

Client: "I've got a problem with my login script - You wont let me
connect!"
ISP:    "Have you plugged your PC into the power socket?"
Client: "Oh yeah... forgot about that..."

Russ Magee

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Russell Keith-Magee
PhD Research Student
School of Computing, Curtin University of Technology
email: keithmag at cs.curtin.edu.au OR russ.magee at computer.org
WWW:   http://www.cs.curtin.edu.au/~keithmag
Ph: +61 8 9266 2129    FAX +61 8 9266 2819
-----------------------------------------------------------
If a fool persists in his folly he shall become wise.
		-- William Blake


From dennisp at tiwest.com.au  Wed Sep 27 08:12:35 2000
From: dennisp at tiwest.com.au (Dennis Plester)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:12:35 +0800
Subject: [plug] Databases
Message-ID: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A635F@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>

I can't say what is the best to use, but I have certainly had a lot of
success with mySQL. I have now shifted several different Access and Paradox
databases across without any significant hassles. I suspect the porting is
not the issue, simply pick the database that has the speed, file size,
reliability and transaction features that you require. 

If sheer speed is your thing, it is hard to go past mySQL, especially since
the relaxation in licensing conditions.

If you need transactions and roll back, you may prefer to go to postgresql.
(Can be done in mySQL but it is still in development last time I checked)

Both are good systems, and the differences between them (at least in terms
of overall feature set) are getting blurrier with every release.

In terms of minimising the pain, exporting any large complicated database
requires care and attention, and will warrant careful cross checking if the
data is important. Do this by running identical queries on both databases
and ensure you get the same results. Access does not make it easy to dump an
entire database in one action, only table by table, which you then need to
import one at a time. Also, the data types on offer are rarely identical
between Access and the target system. mySQL has a wide range of field types,
some of which have a significant impact on the final data storage space
requirements and access speed. Some keen coders have written macros and
other utilities that will grab an Access database and reproduce it in mySQL
while choosing the best field types. Visit their web site for details, and
I'm sure the same would exist for postgresql too.

Sorry for the small novel, but I thought you might find my experiences
useful. Hope this helps.

Dennis.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	jeffw at mbox.com.au [SMTP:jeffw at mbox.com.au]
	Sent:	Tuesday, 26 September 2000 18:49
	To:	plug at plug.linux.org.au
	Subject:	[plug] Databases

	At my work we have the customer database on Access which makes it 
	entirely horrible to access from our linux server. We are looking at

	porting it across to a linux based database. I was wanting to know 
	whether anyone had experience in this and has tips for making it
least 
	painful. Also, what database would be best to use? mysql, postgresql
or 
	something else?

	Thanks

	Jeff
	


From Dene.Delower at team.telstra.com  Wed Sep 27 09:30:00 2000
From: Dene.Delower at team.telstra.com (Delower, Dene)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:30:00 +1100
Subject: [plug] ELMP MP3 player and other linux stand alone players
Message-ID: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80380DF29@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>

Hi everyone,
I want to make a stand alone "CHEAP" Linux mp3 player , I've got on old
486/66 with 32meg mem and a 2gig drive, I came across ELMP
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~zehalko/elmp/menu.html
Has anyone used this software/hardware config , I had a quick play putting
an lcd onto the parallel port and it didn't work, the doc's aren't all that
clear and I know I'm slack- I want it all done for me- just connect the
dots- is there a better and simpler one out there!
regards Dene



From andrew.mcmeikan at mitswa.com.au  Wed Sep 27 09:46:28 2000
From: andrew.mcmeikan at mitswa.com.au (McMeikan, Andrew)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:46:28 +0800
Subject: [plug] ELMP MP3 player and other linux stand alone players
Message-ID: <54A50136B6CAD3118FBD00C00D00DDEF0372FB@mits_perth_com1.mitswa.com.au>

I've got some details on LCD's on my page at http://www.opendesign.cx , I
will be glad to assist.

	cya,	Andrew...

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Delower, Dene [SMTP:Dene.Delower at team.telstra.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, September 27, 2000 9:23 AM
> To:	'plug at plug.linux.org.au'
> Subject:	[plug] ELMP MP3 player and other linux stand alone players
> 
> Hi everyone,
> I want to make a stand alone "CHEAP" Linux mp3 player , I've got on old
> 486/66 with 32meg mem and a 2gig drive, I came across ELMP
> http://www.ozemail.com.au/~zehalko/elmp/menu.html
> Has anyone used this software/hardware config , I had a quick play putting
> an lcd onto the parallel port and it didn't work, the doc's aren't all
> that
> clear and I know I'm slack- I want it all done for me- just connect the
> dots- is there a better and simpler one out there!
> regards Dene
> 
The information transmitted is intended for the person or entity to 
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged 
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, copying or other 
use of, or taking any action in reliance upon, this information by 
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If 
you have received this in error, please contact the sender and delete 
the material from your system. Utility Services Corporation (USC) is not 
responsible for any changes made to the material other than those made 
by USC or for the effect of the changes on the material?s meaning.


From steven at algarburns.com.au  Wed Sep 27 09:46:30 2000
From: steven at algarburns.com.au (Steve Alilovic)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:46:30 +0800
Subject: [plug] File monitoring
Message-ID: <C4DBF89155A6D311A7E500A0CC3970EE030ACB@PUMA>

Is anyone aware of an application that is available that can monitor changes
to config files or systems files, made by users.


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 10:08:00 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:08:00 +0800
Subject: re iinet support and Linux; was Re: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au> <39D105F3.CBCC733D@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D15680.55C882E7@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Dave T Burbidge wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> Greetings!
> 
> Umm ... is iiNet Linux friendly? OK, so I can log in, but one time I
> couldn't connect, I rang the help-line, and they wouldn't help me 'cause
> I was using a linux box ...

I have never had that response. I have got some real twits, sometimes
("There is not a problem here with our mail servers, because my screen
does not say there is a problem", and other such rubbish, then, phoning
back later, shows that there had been a problem with their mail servers,
that lasted for a couple of hours; they just forgot to put something in
the support person's skull, to occupy the space after the lobotomy). I
have learnt that it pays to ask to get put through to advanced support
(although I still have a problem that has remained unsolved, after a few
weeks, that they have not been able to solve, regarding mail). I have
had to wait about half an hour, on average, to get through to advanced
support (half an hour of ads on the hold line!). But, generally, they
have been helpful, regarding Linux. I have found that, if I mention that
we go through a Linux frirewall/gateway, here on our LAN, if that may be
involved, they generally say "Hold on while I put you through to a
person that knows Linux", and, from there, it goes okay, apart from the
wait.

The main problem, is the majority of their first line of support, from
my experience, being mindless gits, but, as someone else has said, about
the even more mindless users ("that slide out coffee mug holder broke
off, when I put my pint mug of beer on it..."), maybe the stupidity is
contagious, even over telephone networks (if computer viruses can be
transmitted over telephone lines, why not illnesses, like chronic
stupidity).

> once I swapped the modem across to the 95
> box and proved that wouldn't happen either, they passed me onto the
> expert section (so they soon picked I knew what I was talking about :)
> ... it turned out to be a Telstra problem ...

We had a connection problem, at one stage; connecting at a particular
time each day, meant that we could not sustain a connection for more
than a minute or two, and their support person (from advanced support,
from memory), advised me of a number of steps; firstly to contact
telecom, to get a mould test, and some other things run on the line; and
that all got it fixed. It ended up that telecom had, unknown to us,
changed our exchange type, and, inflicted call waiting on us. That got
excised, and the problem disappeared.

I think the basic problem with iinet support, is the lack of standards;
one day you get a person who knows what a computer is, and what Linux
is, the next day, you get a person who is still learning to count on its
fingers.

Aside - iinet could, as I have previously suggested on the list, about
other ISP's and websites, include on their home page, "Powered by
Linux", "Apache webserver", etc... well, maybe.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From christian at amnet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 10:21:13 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:21:13 +0800
Subject: [plug] File monitoring
In-Reply-To: <C4DBF89155A6D311A7E500A0CC3970EE030ACB@PUMA>; from steven@algarburns.com.au on Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 09:46:30AM +0800
References: <C4DBF89155A6D311A7E500A0CC3970EE030ACB@PUMA>
Message-ID: <20000927102113.L24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 09:46:30AM +0800, Steve Alilovic wrote:
> Is anyone aware of an application that is available that can monitor changes
> to config files or systems files, made by users.

You could use rcs (assuming cooperative admins) to monitor changes to
system configuration files etc.  Otherwise, if you're interested in
changes to a wide variety of files (including binaries) then something
like Tripwire is probably what you're looking for.


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 10:21:23 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:21:23 +0800
Subject: Distributions - was Re: [plug] Red Hat 7
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000926153138.6668I-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D159A3.293CDD25@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Matt Kemner wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> 

<snip>

> > Perhaps that's it; from memory, the 486 has a 1.1GB HDD, and a 454MB
> > HDD.
> > We keep Win 3.11 on it. (We need to)
> > Thus, it could be that both sockets are occupied.
> 
> But you don't need to be able to access Win3.11 while you're installing
> Linux, do you?
> So temporarily unplug that drive and plug the CDROM in.
> 
>  - Matt

It appears that I got it wrong; Anne told me last night, that the
problem is that the motherboard does not support a CD drive via the IDE
card. She may clarify this.

Wrong box; another one has the above hard drive configuration - the 486
has only a single hard disk drive, with both RH 6 and Win3.11.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From russ at embedit.com.au  Wed Sep 27 10:22:38 2000
From: russ at embedit.com.au (russ)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:22:38 +0800
Subject: re iinet support and Linux; was Re: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au> <39D105F3.CBCC733D@iinet.net.au> <39D15680.55C882E7@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D159EE.4B56AAF4@embedit.com.au>

Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> Dave T Burbidge wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > Greetings!
> >
> > Umm ... is iiNet Linux friendly? OK, so I can log in, but one time I
> > couldn't connect, I rang the help-line, and they wouldn't help me 'cause
> > I was using a linux box ...
> 
> I have never had that response. 

I just got it yesterday. When I mentioned fetchmail, the response was: here's the default windows
configuration, we don't support fetchmail.

Hmmmm. Come to think of it, that's the almost the same response I got from PLUG! :-)


russ


From steveg at calm.wa.gov.au  Wed Sep 27 10:26:11 2000
From: steveg at calm.wa.gov.au (Steve Grasso)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:26:11 +0800
Subject: [plug] File monitoring
In-Reply-To: <C4DBF89155A6D311A7E500A0CC3970EE030ACB@PUMA>
References: <C4DBF89155A6D311A7E500A0CC3970EE030ACB@PUMA>
Message-ID: <00092710305102.30332@pluto.calm.wa.gov.au>

On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Steve Alilovic wrote:
> Is anyone aware of an application that is available that can monitor changes
> to config files or systems files, made by users.

Try:
AIDE:   http://www.cs.tut.fi/~rammer/aide.html
FCheck:  http://sites.netscape.net/fcheck/fcheck.html

or the old, not-completely-free, favourite Tripwire:  http://www.tripwire.com/

Steve


From subs at linuxworld.com.au  Wed Sep 27 11:13:01 2000
From: subs at linuxworld.com.au (Gavin Sherry)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:13:01 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [plug] InstallFest
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009271411080.18595-100000@linuxworld.com.au>

Hi all,

I thought you may be interested to know that LinuxWorld.com.au has put up
an article covering InstallFest2000 in perth. You can see it at:

	http://www.linuxworld.com.au/article.php3?tid=8&aid=90

Hope you like it.

Gavin Sherry
LinuxWorld.com.au Editor



From Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au  Wed Sep 27 11:10:35 2000
From: Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au (Brian Tombleson)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:10:35 +0800
Subject: [plug] Russ's fetchmail
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au> <39D105F3.CBCC733D@iinet.net.au> <39D15680.55C882E7@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39D159EE.4B56AAF4@embedit.com.au>
Message-ID: <016801c02830$81499bc0$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>


----- Original Message -----
From: "russ" <russ at embedit.com.au>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 10:22 AM

<snip>
> I just got it yesterday. When I mentioned fetchmail, the response was:
here's the default windows
> configuration, we don't support fetchmail.
>
> Hmmmm. Come to think of it, that's the almost the same response I got from
PLUG! :-)
>

Ok, grizzly-guts.  Your problem for fetchmail (i recall) is something like
this:
  "socket error while fetching from iinet.net.au"

First question: aren't you supposed to be connecting to mail.iinet.net.au ?

Second, what's your configuration file (or command line parameters), so we
could at least have a guess?

- Brian.



From Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com  Wed Sep 27 11:10:07 2000
From: Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com (de Vries, Arie)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:10:07 +1100
Subject: [plug] RE:iinet support
Message-ID: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80324029E@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>

Could it be that you ignored the notice advising of the change, that came
with the phone bill around that time?
It would have been part of the digital conversion that Telstra performed
several years ago.

But all you needed to do is inserted the stop call wait code in front of
your ISP's phone number and issued resume call waiting at the end of your
internet session.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bret Busby [mailto:bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au]

It ended up that telecom had, unknown to us,
changed our exchange type, and, inflicted call waiting on us. That got
excised, and the problem disappeared.




From russ at embedit.com.au  Wed Sep 27 11:21:02 2000
From: russ at embedit.com.au (russ)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:21:02 +0800
Subject: [plug] Russ's fetchmail
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au> <39D105F3.CBCC733D@iinet.net.au> <39D15680.55C882E7@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39D159EE.4B56AAF4@embedit.com.au> <016801c02830$81499bc0$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D1679E.7BDD285C@embedit.com.au>

Brian Tombleson wrote:
> 
> Ok, grizzly-guts.  Your problem for fetchmail (i recall) is something like

Easy just stirring! ;-)

It's all works again. It mysteriously started working again about ten minutes after I spoke with
them. 


> this:
>   "socket error while fetching from iinet.net.au"
> 
> First question: aren't you supposed to be connecting to mail.iinet.net.au ?

Hmm. Maybe, though it never gave me any trouble before. I've actually changed it to the IP address
now (one of those nice windows settings I got :).

 
> Second, what's your configuration file (or command line parameters), so we
> could at least have a guess?

Geez, I gotta do everything?  :)


Thanks for the help.
russ


From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Wed Sep 27 11:32:17 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:32:17 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Russ's fetchmail
In-Reply-To: <39D1679E.7BDD285C@embedit.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000927112638.11440A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, russ wrote:
> Brian Tombleson wrote:
> > First question: aren't you supposed to be connecting to mail.iinet.net.au ?
> I've actually changed it to the IP address
> now (one of those nice windows settings I got :).
They give their users IP addresses instead of FQDNs?
Case closed. Be careful not to contract their contagious stupidity, Bret.

Can you try to wrap your lines, Russ?

Thanks,

-Greg Mildenhall



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 11:33:00 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:33:00 +0800
Subject: telecom; was Re: [plug] RE:iinet support
References: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80324029E@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D16A6C.D93F9DA1@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

"de Vries, Arie" wrote:
> 
> Could it be that you ignored the notice advising of the change, that came
> with the phone bill around that time?

No.

> It would have been part of the digital conversion that Telstra performed
> several years ago.

Pity they didn't tell us about it. from the information that was
provided to us, when we shifted to this area, about 7 years ago, the 399
exchane was an ARE exchange. It was the PLUG mailing list, that advised
us otherwise, not telecom. I am not aware of having been advised that we
were not on an ARE exchange, by telecom, apart from the incident
mentioned.

But, then, given that telecom regards Armadale, WA, as a remote
community (telecom does not intend to provide ADSL to Armadale,WA; the
only way to get higher speed data transmission here, is by spending a
couple of thousand dollars on satellite facilities, as we are classed as
a remote community, by telecom; cf previous message posted about this),
telecom probably didn't think it was worth telling us. Remote
communities are apparently not a high priority with telecommunications
companies, in Australia. It's a bit like a widely publicised windscreen
company, that does not service Armadale, despite its advertisements.
These eastern states companies, seem to think that we are in the middle
of the Gibson desert, or something.

> 
> But all you needed to do is inserted the stop call wait code in front of
> your ISP's phone number and issued resume call waiting at the end of your
> internet session.

Why, when the line is used for data, have call waiting? Better to get
the growth excised.

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bret Busby [mailto:bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au]
> 
> It ended up that telecom had, unknown to us,
> changed our exchange type, and, inflicted call waiting on us. That got
> excised, and the problem disappeared.


-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From christian at amnet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 11:33:56 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:33:56 +0800
Subject: [plug] RE:iinet support
In-Reply-To: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80324029E@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>; from Arie.deVries@team.telstra.com on Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 02:10:07PM +1100
References: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80324029E@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>
Message-ID: <20000927113356.M24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 02:10:07PM +1100, de Vries, Arie wrote:
> Could it be that you ignored the notice advising of the change, that came
> with the phone bill around that time?
> It would have been part of the digital conversion that Telstra performed
> several years ago.

Maybe he did but I've heard of several people who had the same thing
happen to them without receiving any notification at all.  Entirely
consistent with Telstra's behaviour overall I would say.


From david.j.campbell at honeywell.com  Wed Sep 27 11:32:43 2000
From: david.j.campbell at honeywell.com (Campbell, David (Ex AS17))
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:32:43 +1100
Subject: [plug] Minor problem with mice buttons...
Message-ID: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB01867827@HPACAS17002>

Does anyone have any clue about the following:

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Trevor Phillips
[*snip*]
> BTW: Any idea how I can associate a mouse-click with a keypress? To be
> precise,
> I wish to associate the two side buttons on my Intellimouse Explorer with
> Ctrl,
> and Alt keypresses. I've got the buttons recognised by X (thanks to
> X4.0.1),
> but haven't got that last step figured out yet...
> 


From christian at amnet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 11:35:12 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:35:12 +0800
Subject: re iinet support and Linux; was Re: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
In-Reply-To: <39D159EE.4B56AAF4@embedit.com.au>; from russ@embedit.com.au on Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 10:22:38AM +0800
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au> <39D105F3.CBCC733D@iinet.net.au> <39D15680.55C882E7@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39D159EE.4B56AAF4@embedit.com.au>
Message-ID: <20000927113512.N24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 10:22:38AM +0800, russ wrote:
 
> I just got it yesterday. When I mentioned fetchmail, the response was: here's the default windows
> configuration, we don't support fetchmail.
> 
> Hmmmm. Come to think of it, that's the almost the same response I got from PLUG! :-)
> 

Most likely because it didn't sound like a fetchmail problem...


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 11:39:12 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:39:12 +0800
Subject: [plug] InstallFest
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009271411080.18595-100000@linuxworld.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D16BE0.5D17B9EA@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Gavin Sherry wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I thought you may be interested to know that LinuxWorld.com.au has put up
> an article covering InstallFest2000 in perth. You can see it at:
> 
>         http://www.linuxworld.com.au/article.php3?tid=8&aid=90
> 
> Hope you like it.
> 
> Gavin Sherry
> LinuxWorld.com.au Editor

Fairly good; pity the pictures don't show the crowding (the place was
packed, in the later afternoon).

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From woodward at omen.net.au  Wed Sep 27 11:53:27 2000
From: woodward at omen.net.au (Clive Woodward)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:53:27 +0800
Subject: [plug] headding OT -Re: telecom;
In-Reply-To: <39D16A6C.D93F9DA1@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
References: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80324029E@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000927114528.00be8190@mail.iinet.net.au>


Bret,

Don't feel left out just because you're in Armadale :-)  I'm in Applecross 
and Telstra has 'no plan in the foreseeable future' to provide ADSL here, 
either. Nor do we have any hope of cable television - 'dormant suburb' 
according to the cable guys :-(

Even mobile coverage - two blocks back from the river, is sporadic, with 
mid-call disconnects common (I'm with Optus, but Telstra's not any better: 
cell-site ID says 'Nedlands'.)

Chin up,


Clive.

At 11:33 Wednesday 27-09-00 +0800, you wrote:
>[big snip]
>
>But, then, given that telecom regards Armadale, WA, as a remote
>community (telecom does not intend to provide ADSL to Armadale,WA;

[further gigantic snip]


_____________________________________________________________________

                                 Clive Woodward t/as:
                     .           WOODRONICS [ABN 27 278 784 779]
               _/- /_|\          PO Box 74
             .~  |     \                 Applecross WA 6953
             \ WA|      \        AUSTRALIA
           => *_.-.._   /
                     "-"         Phone:  +61 8 9364 3293
                      V          Fax:    +61 8 9316 8399
                                 Mobile: 0403 006 153
                                 email:  woodward at omen.net.au

                 CONTRACTING AND CONSULTING IN PROFESSIONAL
                 & BROADCAST AUDIO AND VIDEO ELECTRONICS.

         "It's not a problem, it's an opportunity! I'll make it work."

_____________________________________________________________________



From kimc at zydeco.ned.dem.csiro.au  Wed Sep 27 11:58:57 2000
From: kimc at zydeco.ned.dem.csiro.au (Kim Covil)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:58:57 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] headding OT -Re: telecom;
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20000927114528.00be8190@mail.iinet.net.au> from "Clive Woodward" at Sep 27, 2000 11:53:27 AM
Message-ID: <200009270358.LAA0000000937@zydeco.ned.dem.csiro.au>

> Even mobile coverage - two blocks back from the river, is sporadic, with 
> mid-call disconnects common (I'm with Optus, but Telstra's not any better: 
> cell-site ID says 'Nedlands'.)

Fascinating... here I am at UWA in Nedlands and my cell-id says I am in
Booragoon... oh no wait... it has just changed to South Perth...

*shake of head*

Kim

-- 
====================================================================== 
Kim Covil - CSIRO Exploration & Mining   E-mail: kimc at ned.dem.csiro.au
            PO Box 437, Nedlands,        Tel: +61 8 9284 8425   ,-_!\
            Western Australia  6009      Fax: +61 8 9389 1906  /     \
                                                               *_,-._/
=================================================================== v 
   Please direct all personal e-mail to kimbotha at covil.com.au


From dennisp at tiwest.com.au  Wed Sep 27 12:02:10 2000
From: dennisp at tiwest.com.au (Dennis Plester)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:02:10 +0800
Subject: [plug] headding OT -Re: telecom;
Message-ID: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6363@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>

I'm sure we could all have a moan about the telcos, and the complete farce
that is called affordable broadband access, but hey. 

I'm sure that one day, someone in the right position of authority will
realise what this is really costing us, in terms of lost development and
growth opportunity, etc...

"You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one..." - John Lennon.

Dennis.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Clive Woodward [SMTP:woodward at omen.net.au]
	Sent:	Wednesday, 27 September 2000 11:45
	To:	plug at plug.linux.org.au
	Subject:	[plug] headding OT -Re: telecom;


	Bret,

	Don't feel left out just because you're in Armadale :-)  I'm in
Applecross 
	and Telstra has 'no plan in the foreseeable future' to provide ADSL
here, 
	either. Nor do we have any hope of cable television - 'dormant
suburb' 
	according to the cable guys :-(

	Even mobile coverage - two blocks back from the river, is sporadic,
with 
	mid-call disconnects common (I'm with Optus, but Telstra's not any
better: 
	cell-site ID says 'Nedlands'.)

	Chin up,


	Clive.

	At 11:33 Wednesday 27-09-00 +0800, you wrote:
	>[big snip]
	>
	>But, then, given that telecom regards Armadale, WA, as a remote
	>community (telecom does not intend to provide ADSL to Armadale,WA;

	[further gigantic snip]


	
_____________________________________________________________________

	                                 Clive Woodward t/as:
	                     .           WOODRONICS [ABN 27 278 784 779]
	               _/- /_|\          PO Box 74
	             .~  |     \                 Applecross WA 6953
	             \ WA|      \        AUSTRALIA
	           => *_.-.._   /
	                     "-"         Phone:  +61 8 9364 3293
	                      V          Fax:    +61 8 9316 8399
	                                 Mobile: 0403 006 153
	                                 email:  woodward at omen.net.au

	                 CONTRACTING AND CONSULTING IN PROFESSIONAL
	                 & BROADCAST AUDIO AND VIDEO ELECTRONICS.

	         "It's not a problem, it's an opportunity! I'll make it
work."

	
_____________________________________________________________________
	


From russ at embedit.com.au  Wed Sep 27 12:08:14 2000
From: russ at embedit.com.au (russ)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:08:14 +0800
Subject: [plug] Russ's fetchmail
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000927112638.11440A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D172AE.D0EBEA52@embedit.com.au>

The Thought Assassin wrote:
> 
> Can you try to wrap your lines, Russ?

Thought I did? Maybe longer than others?


> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Greg Mildenhall


From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Wed Sep 27 12:39:20 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:39:20 +0800
Subject: re iinet support and Linux; was Re: [plug] FAQ - alpha release
In-Reply-To: <39D15680.55C882E7@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 10:08:00AM +0800
References: <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au> <39D105F3.CBCC733D@iinet.net.au> <39D15680.55C882E7@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000927123920.B795@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

G'day People,

On Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 10:08:00AM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
<snip>
> I think the basic problem with iinet support, is the lack of standards;
> one day you get a person who knows what a computer is, and what Linux
> is, the next day, you get a person who is still learning to count on its
> fingers.
</snip>

iiNet went through a phase where they increased the support load considerably
when purchasing other ISPs (that's just my opinion). How do you cope with this
load? Hire more people - and that's where the difficulties come in. Over in
Sydney it's a chore to get decent trained support staff, you usually need to
get people with promise and train them up. Over in Perth it can only be that
much harder, especially when you consider the number of staff they have.

They have seemed to cope well, and now the ISP purchases have subsided a more
consistent level of service will probably return.


Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Wed Sep 27 12:38:43 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:38:43 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Russ's wrapping, was: Russ's fetchmail
In-Reply-To: <39D172AE.D0EBEA52@embedit.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000927123530.11440C-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, russ wrote:
> The Thought Assassin wrote:
> > Can you try to wrap your lines, Russ?
> Thought I did? Maybe longer than others?
Yes, you're right. They are wrapping at about a hundred or so.
80 is the standard wrap length, but a little below that gives people room
to indent quoted text - although I've never understood how that works if
one assumes that they are wrapping to the same width as you.

-Greg Mildenhall



From skribe at amber.com.au  Wed Sep 27 12:43:24 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:43:24 +0800
Subject: re iinet support and Linux; was Re: [plug] FAQ - alpha
  release
In-Reply-To: <20000927123920.B795@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>
References: <39D15680.55C882E7@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
 <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au>
 <39D105F3.CBCC733D@iinet.net.au>
 <39D15680.55C882E7@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20000927124109.0453a3b0@amber.com.au>

At 12:39 27/09/00, Jason Nicholls wrote:
>iiNet went through a phase where they increased the support load considerably
>when purchasing other ISPs (that's just my opinion).

Actually, the support even over this period from iiNet has been 
considerably better than what I experienced during 1996.  I count my 
blessings when the guy at the other end knows what a ping is.

YMMV

skribe
         Purity:                           62.0%
         Corruption:                    38.0%
         Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
         Weirdness factor:           31%
         Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
         Medieval Career:            Black Knight



From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Wed Sep 27 12:48:23 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:48:23 +0800
Subject: [plug] ELMP MP3 player and other linux stand alone players
In-Reply-To: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80380DF29@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>; from Dene.Delower@team.telstra.com on Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 12:30:00PM +1100
References: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80380DF29@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>
Message-ID: <20000927124823.C795@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

Hiya,

On Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 12:30:00PM +1100, Delower, Dene wrote:
> I want to make a stand alone "CHEAP" Linux mp3 player , I've got on old
> 486/66 with 32meg mem and a 2gig drive, I came across ELMP
<snip>

I don't think that CPU will cut it. I had a 486 o/c to 100Mhz that could
*just* play some MP3s (mono, downspampled, and with large buffers). Oh, if the
song was long it would croak as the buffers ran out.


> http://www.ozemail.com.au/~zehalko/elmp/menu.html

If you take a look at the web site it says use a P75+ and just maybe a 486
120/133Mhz system will cut it.


Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com  Wed Sep 27 12:44:23 2000
From: Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com (de Vries, Arie)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:44:23 +1100
Subject: telecom; was Re: [plug] RE:iinet support
Message-ID: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D8032402A0@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>

> From: Bret Busby
> "de Vries, Arie" wrote:
> > 
> > Could it be that you ignored the notice advising of the 
> change, that came
> > with the phone bill around that time?
> 
> No.

Strange!
When my local was converted, we received a letter advising us the service
would not be available for a short time in the early hours of the morning.
Also Telstra advertised in the local rags that call waiting would be part of
the digital conversion. They called it FMO (Future Mode of Operation)
> 
> exchane was an ARE exchange. It was the PLUG mailing list, 
> that advised
> us otherwise, not telecom.

That was me, several weeks ago!
> 
> But, then, given that telecom regards Armadale, WA, as a remote
> community (telecom does not intend to provide ADSL to Armadale,WA; 

Spearwood could be considered as remote as Armadale!
ADSL won't be coming to us for awhile. The reason lies with the CAN upgrade
that is in progress. But 90% of all Australian's should access to ADSL
within two years if you believe Telstra's spiel.
> 
> > 
> > But all you needed to do is inserted the stop call wait 
> code in front of
> > your ISP's phone number and issued resume call waiting at 
> the end of your
> > internet session.
> 
> Why, when the line is used for data, have call waiting? Better to get
> the growth excised.

Because my phone system doesn't have recall facility, I have call waiting
turned off, but otherwise I would have my set-up stop & start it when on the
internet. Can't see the point in having a second line and I _work_ for
Telstra!

Arie de Vries
08 9491 5193 
 


From support2 at crystal.com.au  Wed Sep 27 12:59:32 2000
From: support2 at crystal.com.au (Support)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:59:32 +0800
Subject: [plug] headding OT -Re: telecom;
References: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80324029E@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au> <4.3.2.7.0.20000927114528.00be8190@mail.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00bb01c0283f$bbbc3ba0$207765cb@user>

Hey bret
 Ive spoken to telstra  serveral times about adsl  I have a isp in
kelmscott  and have been toying with the idia of resuplying adsl  seem the
amadale exchange is asdl ready  just no plans in the future  to lay line if
you wish for this to happen you need to get enough interest from everyone
in our  areas .Ive been looking at some new ideas... wavelan  and other type
of wireless transmistions  and  something called airloop    airloop  my take
over the old wire  systems airloop is just like the wire system only better

gary  Crystal Support Kelmscott


----- Original Message -----
From: "Clive Woodward" <woodward at omen.net.au>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 11:53 AM
Subject: [plug] headding OT -Re: telecom;


>
> Bret,
>
> Don't feel left out just because you're in Armadale :-)  I'm in Applecross
> and Telstra has 'no plan in the foreseeable future' to provide ADSL here,
> either. Nor do we have any hope of cable television - 'dormant suburb'
> according to the cable guys :-(
>
> Even mobile coverage - two blocks back from the river, is sporadic, with
> mid-call disconnects common (I'm with Optus, but Telstra's not any better:
> cell-site ID says 'Nedlands'.)
>
> Chin up,
>
>
> Clive.
>
> At 11:33 Wednesday 27-09-00 +0800, you wrote:
> >[big snip]
> >
> >But, then, given that telecom regards Armadale, WA, as a remote
> >community (telecom does not intend to provide ADSL to Armadale,WA;
>
> [further gigantic snip]
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
>                                  Clive Woodward t/as:
>                      .           WOODRONICS [ABN 27 278 784 779]
>                _/- /_|\          PO Box 74
>              .~  |     \                 Applecross WA 6953
>              \ WA|      \        AUSTRALIA
>            => *_.-.._   /
>                      "-"         Phone:  +61 8 9364 3293
>                       V          Fax:    +61 8 9316 8399
>                                  Mobile: 0403 006 153
>                                  email:  woodward at omen.net.au
>
>                  CONTRACTING AND CONSULTING IN PROFESSIONAL
>                  & BROADCAST AUDIO AND VIDEO ELECTRONICS.
>
>          "It's not a problem, it's an opportunity! I'll make it work."
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
>



From Dene.Delower at team.telstra.com  Wed Sep 27 13:44:15 2000
From: Dene.Delower at team.telstra.com (Delower, Dene)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:44:15 +1100
Subject: [plug] ELMP MP3 player and other linux stand alone players
Message-ID: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80380DF2C@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>

hello Jason
Yeah I know - I was just playing around I'll let you know if I get the
software/hardware up
and running


From Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com  Wed Sep 27 13:56:39 2000
From: Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com (de Vries, Arie)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:56:39 +1100
Subject: [plug] ADSL comment
Message-ID: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D8032402A1@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>

> From: Bret Busby
> 
> community (telecom does not intend to provide ADSL to Armadale,WA; 
> 
ADSL is not the be all and end all of internet connections. 
Have just read Crossroads by Steward Fist in The Australian IT.
http://www.australianit.com.au/common/storyPage/0,3811,1237920%255E506,00.ht
ml
He comments that US companies are cherrypicking the good customers and
refusing to connect those where there might be problems.

Also Bret, the telco is called Telstra not telecom, has been for about 5
years!

Arie de Vries
08 9491 5193 


From peregrin at iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 14:03:53 2000
From: peregrin at iinet.net.au (Nigel Duff)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:03:53 +0800
Subject: [plug] Russ's fetchmail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000927112638.11440A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>; from The Thought Assassin on Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 11:32:17AM +0800
References: <39D1679E.7BDD285C@embedit.com.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000927112638.11440A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000927140353.A23601@iinet.net.au>

On Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 11:32:17AM +0800, The Thought Assassin wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, russ wrote:
> > Brian Tombleson wrote:
> > > First question: aren't you supposed to be connecting to mail.iinet.net.au ?
> > I've actually changed it to the IP address
> > now (one of those nice windows settings I got :).
> They give their users IP addresses instead of FQDNs?
> Case closed. Be careful not to contract their contagious stupidity, Bret.
> 

 In all fairness, Iinet have always said to use "mail.m.iinet.net.au"[1], 
so that if their primary mail server falls over, you are pointed to their
back up. 

 Just checking to make sure the address is still correct, i notice they
also have a Linux help page[2]. Whenever I've called, I've always had
gotten Linux related help if needed.


[1] http://www.iinet.net.au/help/config/index.html
[2] http://www.iinet.net.au/help/linux/index.html

- Nigel




From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 14:06:48 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:06:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] mounting query
Message-ID: <39D18E78.A3CBFBC8@clearsol.iinet.net.au>


After having replaced RH 5.2 on my computer, with RH 6.2, and, not
having backed up /etc/fstab, I have tried to get my data partition
(FAT16) mounted.

My /etc/fstab file, after modifying, now reads:
/dev/hda6    /            ext2     defaults        1 1
/dev/cdrom   /mnt/cdrom   iso9660  noauto,owner,ro 0 0
/dev/fd0     /mnt/floppy  auto     noauto,owner    0 0
/dev/hda5    /mnt/data    msdos    defaults        0 0
/dev/hda7    swap         swap     defaults        0 0
none         /proc        proc     defaults        0 0
none         /dev/pts     devpts   gid=5,mode=620  0 0

The changes that I made to the file, are inserting the line for hda5,
which is the FAT16 partition, and moving that and the swap line to their
current positions, as I read (I think from the man pages) that the order
of the records in the file, is important, and the books that I have,
gave the proc line as the last line. The books do not include the last
line above, of which I am unsure. The file, before I modified it, as
above, was as it was created by the RH 6.2 installation.

On booting, in the output from the bootup, is the error message:
Mounting other file systems mount: mount point /mnt/data does not exist
<FAIL>

Can someone please tell me what is wrong, and, how to correct it?

In case anyone is wondering why I am using the most inefficient
filesystem type for the data, I have multiple booting; Win98, WinNT, and
Linux, and it is the only filesystem type, that can be read by all three
operating systems (as far as I know). This allows me to access the data,
regardless of the OS that I am using (provided that I can mount the
partition).

Thanks in anticipation.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From kimc at zydeco.ned.dem.csiro.au  Wed Sep 27 14:12:01 2000
From: kimc at zydeco.ned.dem.csiro.au (Kim Covil)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:12:01 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] mounting query
In-Reply-To: <39D18E78.A3CBFBC8@clearsol.iinet.net.au> from "Bret Busby" at Sep 27, 2000 02:06:48 PM
Message-ID: <200009270612.OAA0000001092@zydeco.ned.dem.csiro.au>

> On booting, in the output from the bootup, is the error message:
> Mounting other file systems mount: mount point /mnt/data does not exist
> <FAIL>
> 
> Can someone please tell me what is wrong, and, how to correct it?

You need to mkdir /mnt/data before trying to mount anything on it...

> In case anyone is wondering why I am using the most inefficient
> filesystem type for the data, I have multiple booting; Win98, WinNT, and
> Linux, and it is the only filesystem type, that can be read by all three
> operating systems (as far as I know). This allows me to access the data,
> regardless of the OS that I am using (provided that I can mount the
> partition).

I would change the type to vfat rather than msdos as you will then have
access to long filenames under Linux...

Cheers

Kim
-- 
====================================================================== 
Kim Covil - CSIRO Exploration & Mining   E-mail: kimc at ned.dem.csiro.au
            PO Box 437, Nedlands,        Tel: +61 8 9284 8425   ,-_!\
            Western Australia  6009      Fax: +61 8 9389 1906  /     \
                                                               *_,-._/
=================================================================== v 
   Please direct all personal e-mail to kimbotha at covil.com.au


From Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com  Wed Sep 27 14:12:07 2000
From: Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com (de Vries, Arie)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:12:07 +1100
Subject: [plug] RE: re iinet support and Linux;
Message-ID: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D8032402A2@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>

> From: Jason Nicholls 
>

> get people with promise and train them up. Over in Perth it 
> can only be that much harder

They have just gained several "highly" qualified help desk staff, made
redundant by Telstra through the outsourcing of their internal help desk to
Advantra.

Unfortunately their training has been on M$ NT4, Telstra's SOE software.

Arie de Vries
08 9491 5193 


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 14:16:48 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:16:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] ADSL comment
References: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D8032402A1@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D190D0.E6D5F01C@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

"de Vries, Arie" wrote:
> 
> > From: Bret Busby
> >
> > community (telecom does not intend to provide ADSL to Armadale,WA;
> >
> ADSL is not the be all and end all of internet connections.
> Have just read Crossroads by Steward Fist in The Australian IT.
> http://www.australianit.com.au/common/storyPage/0,3811,1237920%255E506,00.ht
> ml
> He comments that US companies are cherrypicking the good customers and
> refusing to connect those where there might be problems.

That soundsl like telecom. The USA people aren't the one's that own
telecom, are they?

My brother in Auckland, NZ, has ADSL, and apparently gets pretty good
data transmission rates. I think his rate is about 128kb, but I am not
sure. When downloads are in the megabytes per email, it would make a
difference.

> 
> Also Bret, the telco is called Telstra not telecom, has been for about 5
> years!
> 

That must be when they gave up on telecommunications. Methinks they just
tried to rip off the name Telstar (the telecommunications satellite from
the 1970's, I think it was, that had the piece of music written and
named after it).


> > Why, when the line is used for data, have call waiting? Better to get
> > the growth excised.
> 
> Because my phone system doesn't have recall facility, I have call waiting
> turned off, but otherwise I would have my set-up stop & start it when on the
> internet. Can't see the point in having a second line and I _work_ for
> Telstra!

We got the second line, after an incident a few years ago, when Anne had
to dial into a client's site from home, to fix a problem, and, had to
speak to the client on the phone at the same time. An hour and a half
(from memory), of mobile phone call, at telecom's rates then, was quite
an expensive call. And, that was not the only time the need for both
data and voice communication, via telephone, were needed. I believe that
ADSL provides both, with a single line.

> Arie de Vries
> 08 9491 5193



-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 14:21:30 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:21:30 +0800
Subject: iinet mail servers; was Re: [plug] Russ's fetchmail
References: <39D1679E.7BDD285C@embedit.com.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000927112638.11440A-100000@live.wasp.net.au> <20000927140353.A23601@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D191EA.2DB05B4F@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Nigel Duff wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 11:32:17AM +0800, The Thought Assassin wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, russ wrote:
> > > Brian Tombleson wrote:
> > > > First question: aren't you supposed to be connecting to mail.iinet.net.au ?
> > > I've actually changed it to the IP address
> > > now (one of those nice windows settings I got :).
> > They give their users IP addresses instead of FQDNs?
> > Case closed. Be careful not to contract their contagious stupidity, Bret.
> >
> 
>  In all fairness, Iinet have always said to use "mail.m.iinet.net.au"[1],
> so that if their primary mail server falls over, you are pointed to their
> back up.

Just out of interest, they have told me to switch between their servers,
at one stage to specify muzak, again, after having been told that about
a year ago (previously mentioned last year on the list), as opposed to
using mail.m, and, the latest, was to use a specific IP address, which
we are still using, to try to overcome the mail problem that I have been
experiencing (which is still not resolved, after a few weeks).

They keep changing what they do with their mail servers, and, it's all
kind of unstable.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Wed Sep 27 14:30:34 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:30:34 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] ADSL comment
In-Reply-To: <39D190D0.E6D5F01C@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000927142850.11440D-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> My brother in Auckland, NZ, has ADSL, and apparently gets pretty good
> data transmission rates. I think his rate is about 128kb, but I am not
> sure. When downloads are in the megabytes per email, it would make a
> difference.
If he corresponds with you regularly, I can see that might be an issue. :)

-Greg



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 14:38:00 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:38:00 +0800
Subject: [plug] ADSL comment
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000927142850.11440D-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D195C8.CC06495C@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

The Thought Assassin wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> > My brother in Auckland, NZ, has ADSL, and apparently gets pretty good
> > data transmission rates. I think his rate is about 128kb, but I am not
> > sure. When downloads are in the megabytes per email, it would make a
> > difference.
> If he corresponds with you regularly, I can see that might be an issue. :)
> 
> -Greg

Mainly when I sent him pictures of what it's like to live in a remote
community, and, when I send him massive files, like winword documents,
to read on his macwhatist, and get the formatting stuft.

|:{)

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From alpha at indigo.net.au  Wed Sep 27 14:49:44 2000
From: alpha at indigo.net.au (Joshua Pierre)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:49:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] RE: re iinet support and Linux;
In-Reply-To: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D8032402A2@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>; from Arie.deVries@team.telstra.com on Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 05:12:07PM +1100
References: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D8032402A2@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>
Message-ID: <20000927144944.A3819@indigo.net.au>

Hmm...


What is telstra's SOE software? Some kind of accounting system I imagine?

Regards,

Josh

-- 
Joshua Pierre		Indigo Networks - Technical Support
alpha at indigo.net.au	http://www.indigo.net.au



From Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com  Wed Sep 27 14:48:59 2000
From: Arie.deVries at team.telstra.com (de Vries, Arie)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:48:59 +1100
Subject: [plug] RE: re iinet support and Linux;
Message-ID: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D8032402A3@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au>

> What is telstra's SOE software? Some kind of accounting 
> system I imagine?
> 
Standard Operating Environment
That makes it easier to train help desk staff.

Arie de Vries
08 9491 5193  


From dramoth at indigo.net.au  Wed Sep 27 15:06:48 2000
From: dramoth at indigo.net.au (Mark Leaver)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:06:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] HELP required
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000927150033.00a935c0@mail.indigo.net.au>

Hi,

Yesterday, I posted a message asking for the assistance of someone versed 
in setting up Debian, and offered to pay for their time.

I am not asking for help in completely installing the operating system, but 
to help me install and setup several packages and to help me fine tune the 
server once these packages are installed.

I offered the person willing to help me out, $20.00 an hour for their time.

I am on a time limit of having to get the server completed and setup before 
the end of this weekend. I originally wanted to get it setup and in place 
this week, but that isnt going to happen.

if anyone is interested, could they please email directly at 
dramoth at indigo.net.au

Thanks

Mark Leaver



From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Wed Sep 27 15:39:11 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:39:11 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] mounting query
In-Reply-To: <39D18E78.A3CBFBC8@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000927153148.11440F-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> After having replaced RH 5.2 on my computer, with RH 6.2, and, not
> having backed up /etc/fstab, I have tried to get my data partition
> (FAT16) mounted.
The Redhat upgrade ate your fstab? As tricky as people tell me the Debian
install is, you only have to do it once.

> My /etc/fstab file, after modifying, now reads:
> /dev/hda6    /            ext2     defaults        1 1
> /dev/hda5    /mnt/data    msdos    defaults        0 0

I doubt this is the problem but the fstab manpage states:
 "The  sixth field, (fs_passno), is used by the fsck(8) pro
  gram to determine the order in which filesystem checks are
  done at reboot time.  The root filesystem should be speci
  fied with a fs_passno of 1, and other  filesystems  should
  have a fs_passno of 2."

> On booting, in the output from the bootup, is the error message:
> Mounting other file systems mount: mount point /mnt/data does not exist
> <FAIL>
> Can someone please tell me what is wrong, and, how to correct it?
At a guess, mount point /mnt/data does not exist and you can correct it by
creating it. (mkdir /mnt/data)

-Greg



From paul at canningcollege.wa.edu.au  Wed Sep 27 16:43:00 2000
From: paul at canningcollege.wa.edu.au (Paul Dean)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:43:00 +0800
Subject: [plug] Windows 2000 and RH6.2 Server
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20000927163324.00a5b9f0@mail.canningcollege.wa.edu.au>

hya list,

Has anyone set up W2K Pro with a RH internet server?
Any HOW-TO's around can't seem find any.

The DNS stuff is being a pain,W2k say its on the network but nothing is 
happening, can't even ping my server..flipin' Micro$tuff..

Anyway any help would be good.

Oh I got it all working RH to RH and Win9x to RH, but W2k to RH.... noooooo


Regards
Paul Dean
Canning College
Computing Centre
9350 5430
paul at canningcollege.wa.edu.au



From russ at embedit.com.au  Wed Sep 27 16:45:18 2000
From: russ at embedit.com.au (russ)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:45:18 +0800
Subject: [plug] Russ's wrapping, was: Russ's fetchmail
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000927123530.11440C-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D1B39E.BC86DB61@embedit.com.au>

OK, I've set it to 70 so now I will test it out. I guess I need a bit
more to test it. OK.
123456789112345678921234567893123456789412345678951234567896123456789712345678981234567899


Is there an RFC for line length? ;)


The Thought Assassin wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, russ wrote:
> > The Thought Assassin wrote:
> > > Can you try to wrap your lines, Russ?
> > Thought I did? Maybe longer than others?
> Yes, you're right. They are wrapping at about a hundred or so.
> 80 is the standard wrap length, but a little below that gives people room
> to indent quoted text - although I've never understood how that works if
> one assumes that they are wrapping to the same width as you.
> 
> -Greg Mildenhall


From christian at amnet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 16:47:24 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:47:24 +0800
Subject: [plug] Russ's wrapping, was: Russ's fetchmail
In-Reply-To: <39D1B39E.BC86DB61@embedit.com.au>; from russ@embedit.com.au on Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 04:45:18PM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000927123530.11440C-100000@live.wasp.net.au> <39D1B39E.BC86DB61@embedit.com.au>
Message-ID: <20000927164724.Q24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 04:45:18PM +0800, russ wrote:
> OK, I've set it to 70 so now I will test it out. I guess I need a bit
> more to test it. OK.
> 123456789112345678921234567893123456789412345678951234567896123456789712345678981234567899

Uh... maybe with some spaces...?


From hooker at opera.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 17:28:56 2000
From: hooker at opera.iinet.net.au (Hook)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:28:56 +0800
Subject: [plug] Russ's wrapping, was: Russ's fetchmail
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000927123530.11440C-100000@live.wasp.net.au> <39D1B39E.BC86DB61@embedit.com.au>
Message-ID: <000f01c02865$5c712220$0c00a8c0@hathor>

> OK, I've set it to 70 so now I will test it out. I guess I need a bit
> more to test it. OK.
>
1234567891123456789212345678931234567894123456789512345678961234567897123456
78981234567899
>
>
> Is there an RFC for line length? ;)

Yup, there is indeed. The maximum supported line width for email is 1000
characters. Odd in a way since UNIX was one of the major OSs at the time it
was written, and almost no UNIX email clients handle long lines properly.
It's possibly the only thing that MickeySoft got right.

Paul

> The Thought Assassin wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, russ wrote:
> > > The Thought Assassin wrote:
> > > > Can you try to wrap your lines, Russ?
> > > Thought I did? Maybe longer than others?
> > Yes, you're right. They are wrapping at about a hundred or so.
> > 80 is the standard wrap length, but a little below that gives people
room
> > to indent quoted text - although I've never understood how that works if
> > one assumes that they are wrapping to the same width as you.
> >
> > -Greg Mildenhall
>
>



From mbailey at ois.com.au  Wed Sep 27 18:14:17 2000
From: mbailey at ois.com.au (Mark Bailey)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 18:14:17 +0800
Subject: [plug] Databases
In-Reply-To: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A635F@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>
Message-ID: <000001c0286b$b93bf560$0c9c3bcb@genius>

Can I suggest that Magic is worthwhile having a look
at. It'll hook into most legacy data and for development speed
nothing comes near it.

http://noframes.linuxjournal.com/lj-issues/issue78/4027.html

and

http://www.magic-sw.com.au


Cheers,
Mark Bailey



-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Plester [mailto:dennisp at tiwest.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, 27 September 2000 8:13
To: 'plug at plug.linux.org.au'
Subject: RE: [plug] Databases


I can't say what is the best to use, but I have certainly had a lot of
success with mySQL. I have now shifted several different Access and Paradox
databases across without any significant hassles. I suspect the porting is
not the issue, simply pick the database that has the speed, file size,
reliability and transaction features that you require.

If sheer speed is your thing, it is hard to go past mySQL, especially since
the relaxation in licensing conditions.

If you need transactions and roll back, you may prefer to go to postgresql.
(Can be done in mySQL but it is still in development last time I checked)

Both are good systems, and the differences between them (at least in terms
of overall feature set) are getting blurrier with every release.

In terms of minimising the pain, exporting any large complicated database
requires care and attention, and will warrant careful cross checking if the
data is important. Do this by running identical queries on both databases
and ensure you get the same results. Access does not make it easy to dump an
entire database in one action, only table by table, which you then need to
import one at a time. Also, the data types on offer are rarely identical
between Access and the target system. mySQL has a wide range of field types,
some of which have a significant impact on the final data storage space
requirements and access speed. Some keen coders have written macros and
other utilities that will grab an Access database and reproduce it in mySQL
while choosing the best field types. Visit their web site for details, and
I'm sure the same would exist for postgresql too.

Sorry for the small novel, but I thought you might find my experiences
useful. Hope this helps.

Dennis.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	jeffw at mbox.com.au [SMTP:jeffw at mbox.com.au]
	Sent:	Tuesday, 26 September 2000 18:49
	To:	plug at plug.linux.org.au
	Subject:	[plug] Databases

	At my work we have the customer database on Access which makes it
	entirely horrible to access from our linux server. We are looking at

	porting it across to a linux based database. I was wanting to know
	whether anyone had experience in this and has tips for making it
least
	painful. Also, what database would be best to use? mysql, postgresql
or
	something else?

	Thanks

	Jeff





From drc1 at iprimus.com.au  Wed Sep 27 19:04:25 2000
From: drc1 at iprimus.com.au (Darcy Nicolson)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:04:25 +0800
Subject: [plug] List gone ballistic
References: <39D05333.D3CF919C@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <003c01c02872$b3fc19c0$287186cb@slim>

Maby someone should set up a html based list?

I feel like I'm cheating - still using windoze - but I can never get redhat
configured to my modem, and always have to have a 16bit display....

Time for a new video card, any suggestions?

Darcy Nicolson


----- Original Message -----
From: "Leon Brooks" <leon at brooks.smileys.net>
To: "Perth Linux Users Group" <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 3:41 PM
Subject: [plug] List gone ballistic


> >From about 5-10 messages a day, we're now at over 50. Wonder how that
will
> settle in?
>
> --
> the sand remembers
> once there was beach and sunshine
> but chip is warm too
> -- Damon A. Koronakos and Brian Roberts; "High-tech Haikus"
>



From satyr at iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 19:02:58 2000
From: satyr at iinet.net.au (Matt)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:02:58 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mandrake 7.2
Message-ID: <39D1D3E2.A26640A1@iinet.net.au>

Hey,


I was wondering if anyone knows the estimated time that Linux Mandrake
7.2 will be released??

I checked the web site but couldnt find it

Thanks

Matt



From alanh at wn.com.au  Wed Sep 27 19:07:46 2000
From: alanh at wn.com.au (alan howard)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:07:46 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
Message-ID: <00092719155100.00347@localhost.localdomain>

At the risk of sounding thick I have a couple of questions which I hope someone
will answer.
1. I can't get wine to work. it complains that it can't find the executable. I
can mount he windows partition and copy files between linux and win without
problems. Does any one know what I'm doing wrong.
2. I keep getting a lock file in my  home ./netscape directory. can anyone tell
me whats generating this and how to stop it.

thank you
alan howard


From kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au  Wed Sep 27 19:17:06 2000
From: kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au (Beau Kuiper)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:17:06 +0800
Subject: [plug] List gone ballistic
In-Reply-To: <003c01c02872$b3fc19c0$287186cb@slim>
References: <39D05333.D3CF919C@brooks.smileys.net> <003c01c02872$b3fc19c0$287186cb@slim>
Message-ID: <00092719193600.00136@darkstar>

On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Darcy Nicolson wrote:
> Maby someone should set up a html based list?
> 
> I feel like I'm cheating - still using windoze - but I can never get redhat
> configured to my modem, and always have to have a 16bit display....
> 
> Time for a new video card, any suggestions?

Linux does very well with a matrox G400. Very crisp/clean output. Very fast in
32 bit colour at high resolutions and high refresh rates (I run mine at 1152x864
in 32 bit colour at refresh of 78hz).

Beau Kuiper
kuiperba at cs.curtin.edu.au


From billk at iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 19:57:48 2000
From: billk at iinet.net.au (BillK)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:57:48 +0800
Subject: re iinet support and Linux; was Re: [plug] FAQ - alpharelease
References: <39D15680.55C882E7@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
	 <4.3.0.20000918111740.00bf7550@amber.com.au>
	 <39D105F3.CBCC733D@iinet.net.au>
	 <39D15680.55C882E7@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <5.0.0.25.0.20000927124109.0453a3b0@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D1E0BC.7033CF82@iinet.net.au>

One thing worth keeping in mind:

two years or so ago i looked into doing afterhours helpdesk at an isp
for some income whilst studying.  Their documentation was a real
eyeopener - they were after waiters etc, people who had a good public
relations attitude, technical experiance was last on the list as a
non-essential!  Lets face it, many techo's should not be let loose in
public (me included!).  However the wages were minimal, and the
expectation that software would answer nearly all problem solving (as
if!).  In my view its not so much the people as the system put in place
to save costs/ration scarce resources (expensive, skilled people).  By
the same measure, windoze would be the vast majority of calls, and
Linux/Unix will always have to be passed off to "experts" - I also do
not see many Linux faults that I have had as being as easy to database
as windoze faults, simply because the system requires so much more
interaction in diagnosing some very obscure problems that often occur -
its just not feasable to do it to the same degree for a comparatively
small user base.

So dont un-neccessarily flame the staff, give em a go (tho there will
always be some that may need a bit of heat to get anything
accomplished!)

BillK

* No, I didnt apply for the job, the hours wouldnt have worked out - I
wasnt THAT desperate!


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 20:29:31 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:29:31 +0800
Subject: [plug] mounting query
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000927153148.11440F-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D1E82B.F8838285@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

The Thought Assassin wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> > After having replaced RH 5.2 on my computer, with RH 6.2, and, not
> > having backed up /etc/fstab, I have tried to get my data partition
> > (FAT16) mounted.
> The Redhat upgrade ate your fstab? As tricky as people tell me the Debian
> install is, you only have to do it once.

It was done as a clean install; from what we understand, an upgrade can
only be done on the second digit, and not on the first ( RH 6.0->6.2 OK;
RH 5.2->6.2 not OK).

> 
> > My /etc/fstab file, after modifying, now reads:
> > /dev/hda6    /            ext2     defaults        1 1
> > /dev/hda5    /mnt/data    msdos    defaults        0 0
> 
> I doubt this is the problem but the fstab manpage states:
>  "The  sixth field, (fs_passno), is used by the fsck(8) pro
>   gram to determine the order in which filesystem checks are
>   done at reboot time.  The root filesystem should be speci
>   fied with a fs_passno of 1, and other  filesystems  should
>   have a fs_passno of 2."
> 
> > On booting, in the output from the bootup, is the error message:
> > Mounting other file systems mount: mount point /mnt/data does not exist
> > <FAIL>
> > Can someone please tell me what is wrong, and, how to correct it?
> At a guess, mount point /mnt/data does not exist and you can correct it by
> creating it. (mkdir /mnt/data)
> 
> -Greg

It was the mkdir /mnt/data. I fixed that, after Kim's message.

Thanks, people.

However; after working on it for a few hours, Netscape for Linux (tried
4.72 and 4.75) can't find the Inbox file to download email, even when
the browse facility is used, and, is used to get Netscape to point at
the nsmail directory.

Has anyone managed to get Netscape messenger to work with RH 6.2? To
have to take hours, to try to get it working, is ridiculous.

The permissions of the files on the data partition have been changed, in
the process of trying to get it to work, and fstab modified, with uid
and gid set for the data partition, to no avail, and, all kinds of
things tried, but, Netscape cannot see the file, to which it points.

It seems that the only way that Netscape can be used, is on Windows, at
present (after having been able to kind of use Netscape 4.08 on RH 5.2).
And, no, I am not trolling; it just seems ridiculously difficult to get
Netscape working, on RH6.2.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From billk at iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 20:43:11 2000
From: billk at iinet.net.au (BillK)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:43:11 +0800
Subject: [plug] ELMP MP3 player and other linux stand alone players
References: <DDA3D6C78E6FD211BE6E0008C72426D80380DF29@ntmsg0061.corpmail.telstra.com.au> <20000927124823.C795@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D1EB5F.4AA0656A@iinet.net.au>

Same here, 486DX4100 with 40M ram, same problem, though I did not try
stripping the system and doing speedups/optimisations except for a 486,
nonmodular kernel which was better, tho not enuff.


Jason Nicholls wrote:
> 
> Hiya,
> 
> On Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 12:30:00PM +1100, Delower, Dene wrote:
> > I want to make a stand alone "CHEAP" Linux mp3 player , I've got on old
> > 486/66 with 32meg mem and a 2gig drive, I came across ELMP
> <snip>
> 
> I don't think that CPU will cut it. I had a 486 o/c to 100Mhz that could
> *just* play some MP3s (mono, downspampled, and with large buffers). Oh, if the
> song was long it would croak as the buffers ran out.
> 
> > http://www.ozemail.com.au/~zehalko/elmp/menu.html
> 
> If you take a look at the web site it says use a P75+ and just maybe a 486
> 120/133Mhz system will cut it.


From billk at iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 27 20:55:48 2000
From: billk at iinet.net.au (BillK)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:55:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <00092719155100.00347@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <39D1EE54.B05016FF@iinet.net.au>

Lock file: Are you closing netscape or crashing it? - will leave lock
file if not shut down cleanly

Wine:  You get that message if you dont give it the exe to run (or
cannot find it) - its not a standalone app, but a command line wrapper.
i.e., "wine /fullpath/solitare.exe" - seems to work better if full path
given as sometimes cannot find mutiple files for an app.

alan howard wrote:
> 
> At the risk of sounding thick I have a couple of questions which I hope someone
> will answer.
> 1. I can't get wine to work. it complains that it can't find the executable. I
> can mount he windows partition and copy files between linux and win without
> problems. Does any one know what I'm doing wrong.
> 2. I keep getting a lock file in my  home ./netscape directory. can anyone tell
> me whats generating this and how to stop it.
> 
> thank you
> alan howard


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 28 07:57:10 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:57:10 +0800
Subject: [plug] Who was wanting PHP work done?
Message-ID: <39D28956.E57776BE@brooks.smileys.net>

Please contact me off-list, I may have a willing worker for you.

-- 
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs,
it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. -- Jean Kerr


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 28 07:58:49 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:58:49 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mandrake 7.2
References: <39D1D3E2.A26640A1@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D289B9.E8C23C5@brooks.smileys.net>

Matt wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone knows the estimated time that Linux Mandrake
> 7.2 will be released??

> I checked the web site but couldnt find it

Beta3 is out now (we installed Beta1!), so I'd be guessing about two weeks.

-- 
We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary. 
Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again. -- David Grabiner


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 28 10:08:31 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (backpacker@firestation.fdns.net)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:08:31 +0800
Subject: [plug] bootlog
Message-ID: <39D2A81F.FB43EEA@brooks.smileys.net>

Read it and weep:

    http://lwn.net/daily/gs320.php3

--
If at first you don't succeed, try a shorter bungee.





From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 28 10:44:04 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:44:04 +0800
Subject: [plug] Replication for PostgreSQL
Message-ID: <39D2B074.87313BD@brooks.smileys.net>

Hmm. It may seem like tit-for-tat with MySQL, but this must have been in
the works for quite some time already.

    http://linuxpr.com/releases/2602.html

-- 
If at first you don't succeed, try a shorter bungee.


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 28 11:27:05 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:27:05 +0800
Subject: [plug] [OT] spam spam spam spam
Message-ID: <39D2BA89.76878241@brooks.smileys.net>

Obviously, Microsoft love you too!

    http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0%2C4586%2C2633574%2C00.html

-- 
If at first you don't succeed, try a shorter bungee.


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Thu Sep 28 14:07:52 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:07:52 +0800
Subject: [plug] [OT] "spam, spam, spam, spam, loverly spam," ... - where are 
 the vikngs? 
References: <39D2BA89.76878241@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39D2E038.92451FD9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Leon Brooks wrote:
> 
> Obviously, Microsoft love you too!
> 
>     http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0%2C4586%2C2633574%2C00.html
> 
> --
> If at first you don't succeed, try a shorter bungee.


Are you suggesting that we all sign up for the MSN Explorer program,
Leon?

But seriously, folks...

What is the difference between that, and the messages at the bottom of
the free emails, like the Hotmail emails, the "Are you a yahoo today",
the Netscape free email message, etc?

I am not suggesting that MS is not doing the wrong thing, but, with the
advertising messages at the bottom of free emails, I don't understand
what the difference is.

It is a bit different, to getting spam mail, where the recipient is not
included in the addressee list, or, when for example, PLUG starts
getting promotional emails, for butt-plugs, or bath plugs, or, for wall
plugs, etc.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au  Thu Sep 28 14:17:47 2000
From: Brian at ParadigmIT.com.au (Brian Tombleson)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:17:47 +0800
Subject: [plug] [OT] "spam, spam, spam, spam, loverly spam," ... - where are the vikngs? 
References: <39D2BA89.76878241@brooks.smileys.net> <39D2E038.92451FD9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <005801c02913$d33d20d0$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bret Busby" <bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 2:07 PM


> It is a bit different, to getting spam mail, where the recipient is not
> included in the addressee list, or, when for example, PLUG starts
> getting promotional emails, for butt-plugs, or bath plugs, or, for wall
> plugs, etc.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I am sure you could've left one of
the three examples about out for the sake of decency :)

- Brian.



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Thu Sep 28 14:27:03 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:27:03 +0800
Subject: [plug] [OT] "spam, spam, spam, spam, loverly spam," ... - where are 
 the vikngs?
References: <39D2BA89.76878241@brooks.smileys.net> <39D2E038.92451FD9@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <005801c02913$d33d20d0$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D2E4B7.69C9714F@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Brian Tombleson wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bret Busby" <bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au>
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 2:07 PM
> 
> > It is a bit different, to getting spam mail, where the recipient is not
> > included in the addressee list, or, when for example, PLUG starts
> > getting promotional emails, for butt-plugs, or bath plugs, or, for wall
> > plugs, etc.
> 
> I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I am sure you could've left one of
> the three examples about out for the sake of decency :)
> 
> - Brian.

Different types of spam; one, the first, where some nasty person does a
mailbomb, the second, where some comercial enterprise goes flitting
around the net, looking for websites with names, or, with tags, that
resemble its product names, then sends emails to the website people,
regardless of whether the website has anything to do with its products.

Which one of the three offends your decency? Butt-plugs, made from
dowelling, used for fixing holes in, or increasing the security of, butt
joints, in carpentry; bath-plugs, made of rubber, plastic, or bits of
old clothing, packed together in a tight ball, for stopping the water
running out of baths; and wall-plugs, made of plastic or fibre, for
plugging holes in walls. The uses are obvious, from the names. Where is
the problem with decency?

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Thu Sep 28 14:37:10 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:37:10 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] [OT] "spam, spam, spam, spam, loverly spam," ... - where are  the vikngs? 
In-Reply-To: <39D2E038.92451FD9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000928142619.20739A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> Leon Brooks wrote:
> >     http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0%2C4586%2C2633574%2C00.html
> What is the difference between that, and the messages at the bottom of
> the free emails, like the Hotmail emails, the "Are you a yahoo today",
> the Netscape free email message, etc?

Admittedly I haven't followed the link to ZDNet on principle, but assuming
that Leon is talking about what I imagine he is talking about, Microsoft
have been sending an unsolicited mail to everyone on a user's list of 
known addresses. That is a bit different to attaching a message at the end
of an email that at least has useful, unautomated content at the top.

-Greg



From woodward at omen.net.au  Thu Sep 28 14:37:11 2000
From: woodward at omen.net.au (Clive Woodward)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:37:11 +0800
Subject: [plug] [OT] "spam, spam, spam, spam, loverly spam," ... -
  where are  the vikngs?
In-Reply-To: <39D2E4B7.69C9714F@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
References: <39D2BA89.76878241@brooks.smileys.net>
 <39D2E038.92451FD9@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
 <005801c02913$d33d20d0$0100a8c0@paradigmit.com.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000928143438.00be9740@mail.iinet.net.au>


Bret,

Both, you, and, I, know, what, Brian, was, referring, to, and, your, silly, 
attempts, to, defend, yourself, are, uncalled, for.

Clive.

>Which one of the three offends your decency?  [snip] Where is
>the problem with decency?
>
>--
>
>Bret Busby



From psteege at tpg.com.au  Thu Sep 28 14:42:48 2000
From: psteege at tpg.com.au (Phillip Steege)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:42:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mandrake 7.2
References: <39D1D3E2.A26640A1@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <007a01c02917$50f39060$0200a8c0@pappo>

    Mandrake 7.2 GPL (Beta 3) is available from www.lsl.com.au now.
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Matt <satyr at iinet.net.au>
To: PLUG <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 7:02 PM
Subject: [plug] Mandrake 7.2


> Hey,
> 
> 
> I was wondering if anyone knows the estimated time that Linux Mandrake
> 7.2 will be released??
> 
> I checked the web site but couldnt find it
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Matt
> 
> 




From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Thu Sep 28 14:48:30 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:48:30 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] [OT] "spam, spam, spam, spam, loverly spam," ... - where are  the vikngs? 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000928142619.20739A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000928144412.20739B-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, The Thought Assassin wrote:
> Microsoft have been sending an unsolicited mail to everyone on a user's
> list of known addresses.
It occurs to me to consider what would happen during an office-wide
roll-out in an office/enterprise with a centralised address database that 
all employees use.

-Greg



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Thu Sep 28 14:53:27 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:53:27 +0800
Subject: [plug] [OT] "spam, spam, spam, spam, loverly spam," ... - where are  
 the vikings?
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000928142619.20739A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D2EAE7.1D104083@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

The Thought Assassin wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> > Leon Brooks wrote:
> > >     http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0%2C4586%2C2633574%2C00.html
> > What is the difference between that, and the messages at the bottom of
> > the free emails, like the Hotmail emails, the "Are you a yahoo today",
> > the Netscape free email message, etc?
> 
> Admittedly I haven't followed the link to ZDNet on principle, but assuming
> that Leon is talking about what I imagine he is talking about, Microsoft
> have been sending an unsolicited mail to everyone on a user's list of
> known addresses. That is a bit different to attaching a message at the end
> of an email that at least has useful, unautomated content at the top.
> 
> -Greg

The way that it was stated in the article, it was MS allowing people to
send "change of address forms" to people in a user's address book. It is
much the same as what happens, from memory, when registering for the
free email, at netscape.net, where similar messages are sent to people,
advising them of the new email address. If you register for the free
email, at netscape.net, I believe that you will understand what I mean.
It is a thing that happens, at the time of registering, I think, on a
once off basis ("hey people, this is my new email addresss, at this new
facility, that provides these benefits"). I am not sure, whether
hotmail, yahoo, and the others, do similar things; but, form memory,
netscape does the same, or, a similar kind of thing.

I think that, at least in this instance, it is a bit of a grey area. I
object to spam, but, I am unsure of this one.

I think that, perhaps, the perception of MS, could have influenced the
perception of the action, as spamming; "Oh, it's Microsft. Nasty people,
doing nasty things".

But, what if someone else is, or was doing it? As I have said, I believe
that netscape already does, or, has done, either the same, or, a similar
thing. What if RH, or some other Linux distribution, offered a free
email service, with accompanying advertising, and, did the same, or, a
imilar thing? What then?

As I previously stated, I am not sugesting that MS has noty done
something wrong, here. I am unsure of whether it is something wrong,
and, I believe that they are not the only ones that are doing this type
of thing.

We must keep an open mind.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From satyr at iinet.net.au  Thu Sep 28 15:40:38 2000
From: satyr at iinet.net.au (Matt)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:40:38 +0800
Subject: [plug] Mandrake 7.2
References: <39D1D3E2.A26640A1@iinet.net.au> <007a01c02917$50f39060$0200a8c0@pappo>
Message-ID: <39D2F5F6.1FFEE256@iinet.net.au>

Phillip Steege wrote:

>     Mandrake 7.2 GPL (Beta 3) is available from www.lsl.com.au now.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Matt <satyr at iinet.net.au>
> To: PLUG <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 7:02 PM
> Subject: [plug] Mandrake 7.2
>
> > Hey,
> >
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone knows the estimated time that Linux Mandrake
> > 7.2 will be released??
> >
> > I checked the web site but couldnt find it
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Matt
> >
> >

Yeah I know About the Betas, What I meant was the Final release

sorry for the confusion :)

Matt



From greg_smith at au1.ibm.com  Thu Sep 28 17:50:05 2000
From: greg_smith at au1.ibm.com (greg_smith at au1.ibm.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:50:05 +0800
Subject: [plug] Databases
Message-ID: <CA256968.003638E0.00@d73mta01.au.ibm.com>

You may wish to consider DB2 on Linux. Certainly gives your the robustness
of a commercial RDBMS platform on Linux.  DB2 for Linux is the most
scalable database on Linux today supporting desktop systems to mainframe.

Now you can Try the Real Thing!   * Download the free DB2 Personal
Developers Edition!
http://www-4.ibm.com/software/data/db2/udb/downloads.html

http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/DB2-HOWTO/index.html

http://www-4.ibm.com/software/data/db2/linux/

http://www.developer.ibm.com/

Regards

Greg Smith
Senior Sales Specialist
Enterprise Systems Group
IBM Australia Limited
1060 Hay Street, West Perth  WA  6005
Direct:   +61 8 92618642
Fax:       +61 8 92618536
Mobile:  0401715708
email:   greg_smith at au1.ibm.com


http://www.ibm.com/servers/unix          http://www.ibm.com/linux
http://www.numaq.com/
http://www.ibm.com/developer/linux/



plug at plug.linux.org.au on 27/09/2000 06:06:14 PM

Please respond to plug at plug.linux.org.au

To:   plug at plug.linux.org.au
cc:    (bcc: Greg Smith/Australia/IBM)
Subject:  RE: [plug] Databases




Can I suggest that Magic is worthwhile having a look
at. It'll hook into most legacy data and for development speed
nothing comes near it.

http://noframes.linuxjournal.com/lj-issues/issue78/4027.html

and

http://www.magic-sw.com.au


Cheers,
Mark Bailey



-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Plester [mailto:dennisp at tiwest.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, 27 September 2000 8:13
To: 'plug at plug.linux.org.au'
Subject: RE: [plug] Databases


I can't say what is the best to use, but I have certainly had a lot of
success with mySQL. I have now shifted several different Access and Paradox
databases across without any significant hassles. I suspect the porting is
not the issue, simply pick the database that has the speed, file size,
reliability and transaction features that you require.

If sheer speed is your thing, it is hard to go past mySQL, especially since
the relaxation in licensing conditions.

If you need transactions and roll back, you may prefer to go to postgresql.
(Can be done in mySQL but it is still in development last time I checked)

Both are good systems, and the differences between them (at least in terms
of overall feature set) are getting blurrier with every release.

In terms of minimising the pain, exporting any large complicated database
requires care and attention, and will warrant careful cross checking if the
data is important. Do this by running identical queries on both databases
and ensure you get the same results. Access does not make it easy to dump
an
entire database in one action, only table by table, which you then need to
import one at a time. Also, the data types on offer are rarely identical
between Access and the target system. mySQL has a wide range of field
types,
some of which have a significant impact on the final data storage space
requirements and access speed. Some keen coders have written macros and
other utilities that will grab an Access database and reproduce it in mySQL
while choosing the best field types. Visit their web site for details, and
I'm sure the same would exist for postgresql too.

Sorry for the small novel, but I thought you might find my experiences
useful. Hope this helps.

Dennis.

     -----Original Message-----
     From:     jeffw at mbox.com.au [SMTP:jeffw at mbox.com.au]
     Sent:     Tuesday, 26 September 2000 18:49
     To:  plug at plug.linux.org.au
     Subject:  [plug] Databases

     At my work we have the customer database on Access which makes it
     entirely horrible to access from our linux server. We are looking at

     porting it across to a linux based database. I was wanting to know
     whether anyone had experience in this and has tips for making it
least
     painful. Also, what database would be best to use? mysql, postgresql
or
     something else?

     Thanks

     Jeff









From alanh at wn.com.au  Thu Sep 28 17:48:07 2000
From: alanh at wn.com.au (alan howard)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:48:07 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
In-Reply-To: <39D1EE54.B05016FF@iinet.net.au>
References: <00092719155100.00347@localhost.localdomain> <39D1EE54.B05016FF@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00092817524300.00338@localhost.localdomain>


On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, BillK wrote:
> Lock file: Are you closing netscape or crashing it? - will leave lock
> file if not shut down cleanly
> 
> Wine:  You get that message if you dont give it the exe to run (or
> cannot find it) - its not a standalone app, but a command line wrapper.
> i.e., "wine /fullpath/solitare.exe" - seems to work better if full path
> given as sometimes cannot find mutiple files for an app.

yes I am shutting down netscape correctly- its not after a crash or lock up..
and yes again with wine. I tried both the linux and dos conventions for the
path and executable and neither worked., ( i tried several programs , including
ones that are known to work).

regards
alan howard

> alan howard wrote:
> > 
> > At the risk of sounding thick I have a couple of questions which I hope someone
> > will answer.
> > 1. I can't get wine to work. it complains that it can't find the executable. I
> > can mount he windows partition and copy files between linux and win without
> > problems. Does any one know what I'm doing wrong.
> > 2. I keep getting a lock file in my  home ./netscape directory. can anyone tell
> > me whats generating this and how to stop it.
> > 
> > thank you
> > alan howard


From sbaker at icg.net.au  Thu Sep 28 17:24:51 2000
From: sbaker at icg.net.au (Steve Baker)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:24:51 +0800
Subject: [plug] Squid config
Message-ID: <01ae01c0292e$06eb6b20$65140a0a@sg.mercatela.com>

List,

I am setting up a squid proxy server (v 2.2.STABLE5), and it basically works
but it gives me an 'access denied' error when I try to access pages on the
same host as the proxy.  I have set the httpd_accel_host and _port options,
relocated the apache server to port 8080, and turned accel_with_proxy on.

The ACL's all appear to be correct, since I can access other sites and all
of the ACL's are concerned with 'src' IP's.  When I try to access
'http://rouble' I get

<QUOTE>
"ERROR
The requested URL could not be retrieved

While trying to retrieve the URL: http://rouble.sg.mercatela.com:8080/

The following error was encountered:

Access Denied.

Access control configuration prevents your request from being allowed at
this time. Please contact your service provider if you feel this is
incorrect. "
</QUOTE>

BUT: when I click on the http://...:8080 URL it works (obviously by
bypassing the proxy).

Any suggestions?

Regards,
Steve
--
Steve Baker
Principal Associate

mercatela
Tel: +65 324 9727
Fax: +65 324 5116

www.mercatela.com



From zombie at wasp.net.au  Thu Sep 28 19:26:42 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 19:26:42 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
In-Reply-To: <00092817524300.00338@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000928192415.6668V-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, alan howard wrote:

> yes I am shutting down netscape correctly- its not after a crash or lock up..

Have you removed the lockfile?
(yourhomedir/.netscape/lock)

It could be there from when Netscape crashed previously, and everytime
netscape comes up it warnes you and you click OK but because you don't
actually remove the lockfile, it never gets removed so the next time you
load Netscape, it warns you again.

> and yes again with wine. I tried both the linux and dos conventions for the
> path and executable and neither worked., ( i tried several programs , including
> ones that are known to work).

Have you added a Drive statement for the directory where the executable
resides?

eg:
[Drive C]
Path=/win98
Type=hd
Label=MS-DOS
Filesystem=win95

if you're trying to run stuff from /win98/

I had a similar error come up when I tried to run things from my home
directory, which wasn't listed in any of the Drive stanzas.

 - Matt



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 28 20:56:56 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:56:56 +0800
Subject: [plug] [OT] "spam, spam, spam, spam, loverly spam," ... - where are  
 the vikngs?
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000928142619.20739A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D34018.147F6001@brooks.smileys.net>

The Thought Assassin wrote:
> Admittedly I haven't followed the link to ZDNet on principle, but assuming
> that Leon is talking about what I imagine he is talking about, Microsoft
> have been sending an unsolicited mail to everyone on a user's list of
> known addresses. That is a bit different to attaching a message at the end
> of an email that at least has useful, unautomated content at the top.

Close. New versions of Outlook, when you change your email address,
*automatically* mail your entire contact list [some of whom you may decidedly
*not*want* to inform] with the details... and a cordial invitation to try MSN.
So... a one-shot ILUVYOU virus, from the people who brought you the blue screen
of death. Be ever so grateful!

-- 
You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
    -- The President, "Dr. Strangelove"


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Thu Sep 28 21:01:19 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:01:19 +0800
Subject: [plug] Squid config
References: <01ae01c0292e$06eb6b20$65140a0a@sg.mercatela.com>
Message-ID: <39D3411F.AB7C005E@brooks.smileys.net>

Steve Baker wrote:
> I am setting up a squid proxy server (v 2.2.STABLE5), and it basically works
> but it gives me an 'access denied' error when I try to access pages on the
> same host as the proxy.  I have set the httpd_accel_host and _port options,
> relocated the apache server to port 8080, and turned accel_with_proxy on.

> The ACL's all appear to be correct, since I can access other sites and all
> of the ACL's are concerned with 'src' IP's.  When I try to access
> 'http://rouble' I get

> <QUOTE>
> "ERROR
> The requested URL could not be retrieved

> While trying to retrieve the URL: http://rouble.sg.mercatela.com:8080/

> The following error was encountered:

> Access Denied.

> Access control configuration prevents your request from being allowed at
> this time. Please contact your service provider if you feel this is
> incorrect. "
> </QUOTE>

> BUT: when I click on the http://...:8080 URL it works (obviously by
> bypassing the proxy).

Other than making sure that 127.0.0.1 is not forbidden anywhere, no clear idea.
I usually do a redirect (for transproxy) from the LAN-side interface to Squid on
3128, and let users hit the BigBadWorld interface for their web service. Same
machine, different doorway. I don't normally use Squid as both a local proxy and
HTTPd accelerator, but see no reason for it failing.

-- 
I don't know what's scarier - losing nuclear weapons or that it
happens so often that we have a name for it. -- Giles Prentice, "Broken Arrow"


From dhill at wantree.com.au  Thu Sep 28 22:37:30 2000
From: dhill at wantree.com.au (Damion Hill)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:37:30 +0800
Subject: [plug] Russ's fetchmail
In-Reply-To: <39D1679E.7BDD285C@embedit.com.au>
Message-ID: <200009281437.WAA29983@zaphod.frogstar.dds>



On 27 Sep 00, at 11:21, russ wrote:

> Brian Tombleson wrote:
> > 
> > Ok, grizzly-guts.  Your problem for fetchmail (i recall) is
> > something like
> 
> Easy just stirring! ;-)
> 
> It's all works again. It mysteriously started working again about ten
> minutes after I spoke with them. 
> 

Russ, I don't use fetchmail but at the time you were having this 
problem I was noticing horror waits to download my mail (POP3). It 
was taking 10-30 seconds to download messages (mostly PLUG) 
messages. Later in the day everything was back to normal.

iiNet had done some work on the mail server early that morning. 
Coincidence? Maybe, but don't tell the customers!!

--
Damion Hill
dhill at wantree.com.au


From ojw at iinet.net.au  Thu Sep 28 22:45:21 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:45:21 +0000
Subject: [plug] [OT] "spam, spam, spam, spam, loverly spam," ... - where are  
 the vikngs?
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000928142619.20739A-100000@live.wasp.net.au> <39D34018.147F6001@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39D35981.68B2B96F@iinet.net.au>

Leon Brooks wrote:

> --
> You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
>     -- The President, "Dr. Strangelove"

Ooh, great tagline. :-)

--
Oli White



From erazmus at wantree.com.au  Fri Sep 29 01:14:35 2000
From: erazmus at wantree.com.au (Mike from West Australia)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:14:35
Subject: [plug] [ot] H93mv scsi cdrom driver ?
Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20000929011435.0d5fa1fe@mail.iinet.net.au>

Sorry to trouble you nice linux guys,

I'm putting together a tower with a few scsi and drives and one is
a Mediavision cdr-H93mv scsi cdrom but lost my drivers for it
for dos 6.2 and linux and wonder if anyone had one 'lying around'.

Done done a web search and can't find the right one :(

Rgds

Mike



From david.j.campbell at honeywell.com  Fri Sep 29 06:53:24 2000
From: david.j.campbell at honeywell.com (Campbell, David (Ex AS17))
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:53:24 +1100
Subject: [plug] [ot] H93mv scsi cdrom driver ?
Message-ID: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB01867C75@HPACAS17002>

Mike,

Do you have the SCSI controller driver? As a general rule,
the DOS drivers for the SCSI card will include the required
files to activate the SCSI CD-ROM.

David Campbell

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Mike from West Australia [SMTP:erazmus at wantree.com.au]
> Sent:	Friday, September 29, 2000 12:46 AM
> To:	plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Subject:	[plug] [ot] H93mv scsi cdrom driver ?
> 
> Sorry to trouble you nice linux guys,
> 
> I'm putting together a tower with a few scsi and drives and one is
> a Mediavision cdr-H93mv scsi cdrom but lost my drivers for it
> for dos 6.2 and linux and wonder if anyone had one 'lying around'.
> 
> Done done a web search and can't find the right one :(
> 
> Rgds
> 
> Mike


From baker at netwest.com.au  Fri Sep 29 08:29:36 2000
From: baker at netwest.com.au (Mark Baker)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:29:36 +0800
Subject: [plug] Yesterday's PC Tiff
Message-ID: <219B0FEF1841D41192D70040C79959AE010EB1@ntserver.netwest.com.au>

I was saddened to see this list degenerate into a political correctness
debate yesterday over
the use of some fairly harmless language.

Refer to http://dfn.org/Alerts/contest.htm to see the dangers of this.

Mark Baker


From russ at embedit.com.au  Fri Sep 29 08:34:00 2000
From: russ at embedit.com.au (russ)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:34:00 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000928192415.6668V-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D3E378.A4F5BC62@embedit.com.au>

Out of curiosity, does it matter whether the win drive is mounted read
only with no execution? Does wine take care of this? 

Matt Kemner wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, alan howard wrote:
> 
> > and yes again with wine. I tried both the linux and dos conventions for the
> > path and executable and neither worked., ( i tried several programs , including
> > ones that are known to work).
> 
> Have you added a Drive statement for the directory where the executable
> resides?
> 
> eg:
> [Drive C]
> Path=/win98
> Type=hd
> Label=MS-DOS
> Filesystem=win95
> 
> if you're trying to run stuff from /win98/
> 
> I had a similar error come up when I tried to run things from my home
> directory, which wasn't listed in any of the Drive stanzas.
> 
>  - Matt


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Fri Sep 29 09:12:43 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:12:43 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] [ot] H93mv scsi cdrom driver ?
In-Reply-To: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB01867C75@HPACAS17002>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929091154.6668X-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Campbell, David (Ex AS17) wrote:

> Do you have the SCSI controller driver? As a general rule,
> the DOS drivers for the SCSI card will include the required
> files to activate the SCSI CD-ROM.

Ditto goes for Linux

You need to find a driver for the SCSI _card_ not the devices.

 - Matt



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Fri Sep 29 09:31:29 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:31:29 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000928192415.6668V-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <39D3E378.A4F5BC62@embedit.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D3F0F1.B8A9A744@brooks.smileys.net>

russ wrote:
> Out of curiosity, does it matter whether the win drive is mounted read
> only with no execution? Does wine take care of this?

noexec should be fine for Windows files only (DLLs, config files et al - but
_not_ for executable parts of WINE!) (but don't quote me on that) but the
Windowsy bits may get sad about running ro.

-- 
> Can you see evidence of aliens on the moon as well?
You can see evidence of aliens in your oatmeal, if you look with the
right mindset and expectations. -- Jeramie Hicks, in sci.space.policy


From myk at golden.wattle.id.au  Fri Sep 29 10:35:26 2000
From: myk at golden.wattle.id.au (Mike Holland)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:35:26 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Yesterday's PC Tiff
In-Reply-To: <219B0FEF1841D41192D70040C79959AE010EB1@ntserver.netwest.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009291029140.3156-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>

On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Mark Baker wrote:

> I was saddened to see this list degenerate into a political
> correctness debate yesterday over the use of some fairly harmless
> language.

Surely not? I just skimmed it, and assumed there was some subtlte humour
going on.  Wasnt there a discussion of butt plugs some months back, as
hardware items? (Or have I got the wrong list? :)
 
> Refer to http://dfn.org/Alerts/contest.htm to see the dangers of this.

They must be making at least half of that up! Did anybody verify it?

>>> NetNanny,  and when it detected the word "cum" in "cucumbers,"

Seriously, how can you possibly filter every page with 'cum' in a word? It
catches 'document' for a start. I'm sorry, but that page is bullshit.



From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Fri Sep 29 10:52:55 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:52:55 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
In-Reply-To: <00092817524300.00338@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929104944.25997A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, alan howard wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, BillK wrote:
> > Lock file: Are you closing netscape or crashing it? - will leave lock
> > file if not shut down cleanly
> yes I am shutting down netscape correctly
> - its not after a crash or lock up..

Sadly, the first thing you said does not imply the second. Many versions
of Netscape have been known to crash when you try to close them. (usually
a libc mis-versioning) You might find that you have to rm ~/.netscape/lock
prior to every invocation of netscape.

-Greg Mildenhall



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 11:13:34 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:13:34 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929104944.25997A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D408DE.C35CB3B1@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

The Thought Assassin wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, alan howard wrote:
> > On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, BillK wrote:
> > > Lock file: Are you closing netscape or crashing it? - will leave lock
> > > file if not shut down cleanly
> > yes I am shutting down netscape correctly
> > - its not after a crash or lock up..
> 
> Sadly, the first thing you said does not imply the second. Many versions
> of Netscape have been known to crash when you try to close them. (usually
> a libc mis-versioning) You might find that you have to rm ~/.netscape/lock
> prior to every invocation of netscape.
> 
> -Greg Mildenhall

This happens consistently with me (with Win98); Netscape 4.74 for Win98
crashes about 70-80% of the time, when closing it down. Then, it leaves
some residual nasty, which also has to be cleared, before being able to
shut Windows down. The residual nasty sticks its head up, when I try to
shut Windows down, then I have to bash it on its head.

And, before anyone asks "Why not use Netscape on Linux?", as previously
mentioned, Netscape Messenger in 4.75 (and the version that came with RH
6.2, 4.72, I think), appears to not want to work. I have a copy of the
Netscape data files (Inbox, etc) in my common data partition, to which I
point the versions of Netscape on each operating system, so I can access
the data, regardless of which operating system I am using, and, in the
past, have been able to access the data, by pointing the relevant
Netscape parts to the relevant directories, but I am unable to do it
with the two versions of Netscape for RH 6.2. I had previously been able
to access the data equally well, using Netscape 4.08, 4.51, 4.61, and
4.74. 

These problems have not occurred with previous versions of Netscape;
only with Netscape 4.7x. Pity about the bugginess (if that is the
problem). Maybe they are trying to increasingly emulate MS; release
things before they are ready.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Fri Sep 29 11:19:34 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:19:34 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
In-Reply-To: <39D408DE.C35CB3B1@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929111644.6668Y-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> And, before anyone asks "Why not use Netscape on Linux?", as previously
> Netscape Messenger in 4.75 (and the version that came with RH
> 6.2, 4.72, I think), appears to not want to work.

> These problems have not occurred with previous versions of Netscape;
> only with Netscape 4.7x.

Have you tried installing an rpm of the previous Netscape (the one that
worked for you) under RH6.2 and using that?

 - Matt



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 11:25:47 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:25:47 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929111644.6668Y-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Matt Kemner wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > And, before anyone asks "Why not use Netscape on Linux?", as previously
> > Netscape Messenger in 4.75 (and the version that came with RH
> > 6.2, 4.72, I think), appears to not want to work.
> 
> > These problems have not occurred with previous versions of Netscape;
> > only with Netscape 4.7x.
> 
> Have you tried installing an rpm of the previous Netscape (the one that
> worked for you) under RH6.2 and using that?
> 
>  - Matt

And, go back to 4.08? That was the version used on RH5.2.

Does that run on RH6.2? It was previously run on RH 5.2, which had the
2.0.35 kernel (I think), whereas RH 6.2 has the 2.2.something kernel (I
think), and, I thought that programs that ran on the former, would not
run on the latter, due to library changes.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From zombie at wasp.net.au  Fri Sep 29 11:39:49 2000
From: zombie at wasp.net.au (Matt Kemner)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:39:49 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
In-Reply-To: <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>

On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:

> And, go back to 4.08? That was the version used on RH5.2.
> 
> Does that run on RH6.2? It was previously run on RH 5.2, which had the
> 2.0.35 kernel (I think), whereas RH 6.2 has the 2.2.something kernel

The kernel version is not so important, it's the libc version
but most glibc2.0 programs will work with glibc2.1, but it's the opposite
that is not true.

I'm still running the same version of Netscape I was running when I had
glibc2.0.

If the version of Netscape you have requires libc5, you will need to
install the libc5 compatibility library. (There IS one supplied with RH6.2
isn't there?)

anyway.. TRY it and see. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
If it works, you've gained something.

 - Matt



From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Fri Sep 29 12:02:24 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:02:24 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>; from zombie@wasp.net.au on Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 11:39:49AM +0800
References: <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000929120224.E10790@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

G'day,

On Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 11:39:49AM +0800, Matt Kemner wrote:
> If the version of Netscape you have requires libc5, you will need to
> install the libc5 compatibility library. (There IS one supplied with RH6.2
> isn't there?)

rh6.2: libc-5.3.12-31

description: 

Older Linux systems (including all Red Hat Linux releases between 2.0
and 4.2, inclusive) were based on libc version 5. The libc package
includes the libc5 libraries and other libraries based on libc5.  With
these libraries installed, old applications which need them will be able
to run on your glibc (libc version 6) based system.

The libc package should be installed so that you can run older applications
which need libc version 5.


rh6.1 also uses the same compat libraries.


Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 12:21:03 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:21:03 +0800
Subject: netscape - was Re: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D418AF.D5102A7C@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Matt Kemner wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > And, go back to 4.08? That was the version used on RH5.2.
> >
> > Does that run on RH6.2? It was previously run on RH 5.2, which had the
> > 2.0.35 kernel (I think), whereas RH 6.2 has the 2.2.something kernel
> 
> The kernel version is not so important, it's the libc version
> but most glibc2.0 programs will work with glibc2.1, but it's the opposite
> that is not true.
> 
> I'm still running the same version of Netscape I was running when I had
> glibc2.0.
> 
> If the version of Netscape you have requires libc5, you will need to
> install the libc5 compatibility library. (There IS one supplied with RH6.2
> isn't there?)
> 
> anyway.. TRY it and see. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
> If it works, you've gained something.
> 
>  - Matt

Well, I just booted up RH 6.2, and tried to run netscape (4.75), to try
to download 4.08. But, when I tried to run Netscape, it caused a
destructive system crash, causing the system to reboot, as soon as I
clicked on the Netscape icon in the toolbar. When RH was rebooting,
during the fsck, heaps of messages appeared, with "setting filetype to 6
on .." many files in various locations. When it had completed, and,
booted, I logged in, and ran X-windows (as me, user, not root). When
X-windows ran, the two jobs that automatically load, on starting
X-windows, the gnome help browser, and the file manager thing, with my
home directory displayed, while having the windows appear on the screen,
did not appear in the taskbar at the bottom of the screen. The home
directory window, showed core as a piston, rather than the yellow smiley
bomb, which is as it usually shows it.

Maybe netscape just doesn't like me, or my computer. Or, maybe, it's got
something nasty in it, that I don't yet know about.

The only way that I can get 4.08 downloaded, is to save it to an OS
partition, as I don't have the room in my data partition. As Netscape on
Linux appears to have become malevolent, and may have done some damage
to the Linux installation, it appears that I now have to reinstall
Linux. (And, no, Matt, I can't do it with Debian, in this instance - I
have some stuff that has to be done using RH, urgently, for school).

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Fri Sep 29 12:48:44 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:48:44 +0800
Subject: netscape - was Re: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <39D418AF.D5102A7C@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <009f01c029d0$8cc793c0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

G'day Bret,

I dunno about anyone else, but apart from Messanger crashing when trying to
email recipients from the address book I don't have any of these problem
with NS 4.73 + in Linux. I use RH 6.2 and I also installed 4.73, that works
too.

As I said, the only problem I have NS crashing when I try to send to
multiple recipients from the address book.!
It has never crashed my box so bad that I have to reinstall.

Maybe it's just me?

/Kai

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bret Busby" <bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 12:21 PM
Subject: netscape - was Re: [plug] wine, netscape


> Matt Kemner wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> >
> > > And, go back to 4.08? That was the version used on RH5.2.
> > >
> > > Does that run on RH6.2? It was previously run on RH 5.2, which had the
> > > 2.0.35 kernel (I think), whereas RH 6.2 has the 2.2.something kernel
> >
> > The kernel version is not so important, it's the libc version
> > but most glibc2.0 programs will work with glibc2.1, but it's the
opposite
> > that is not true.
> >
> > I'm still running the same version of Netscape I was running when I had
> > glibc2.0.
> >
> > If the version of Netscape you have requires libc5, you will need to
> > install the libc5 compatibility library. (There IS one supplied with
RH6.2
> > isn't there?)
> >
> > anyway.. TRY it and see. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
> > If it works, you've gained something.
> >
> >  - Matt
>
> Well, I just booted up RH 6.2, and tried to run netscape (4.75), to try
> to download 4.08. But, when I tried to run Netscape, it caused a
> destructive system crash, causing the system to reboot, as soon as I
> clicked on the Netscape icon in the toolbar. When RH was rebooting,
> during the fsck, heaps of messages appeared, with "setting filetype to 6
> on .." many files in various locations. When it had completed, and,
> booted, I logged in, and ran X-windows (as me, user, not root). When
> X-windows ran, the two jobs that automatically load, on starting
> X-windows, the gnome help browser, and the file manager thing, with my
> home directory displayed, while having the windows appear on the screen,
> did not appear in the taskbar at the bottom of the screen. The home
> directory window, showed core as a piston, rather than the yellow smiley
> bomb, which is as it usually shows it.
>
> Maybe netscape just doesn't like me, or my computer. Or, maybe, it's got
> something nasty in it, that I don't yet know about.
>
> The only way that I can get 4.08 downloaded, is to save it to an OS
> partition, as I don't have the room in my data partition. As Netscape on
> Linux appears to have become malevolent, and may have done some damage
> to the Linux installation, it appears that I now have to reinstall
> Linux. (And, no, Matt, I can't do it with Debian, in this instance - I
> have some stuff that has to be done using RH, urgently, for school).
>
> --
>
> Bret Busby
>
> ......................................
> "So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
> answer means."
>  - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
>  - Douglas Adams, 1988
> ......................................
>
>



From christian at amnet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 12:34:51 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:34:51 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>; from zombie@wasp.net.au on Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 11:39:49AM +0800
References: <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 11:39:49AM +0800, Matt Kemner wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > And, go back to 4.08? That was the version used on RH5.2.
> > 
> > Does that run on RH6.2? It was previously run on RH 5.2, which had the
> > 2.0.35 kernel (I think), whereas RH 6.2 has the 2.2.something kernel
 
> I'm still running the same version of Netscape I was running when I had
> glibc2.0.

Netscape had a major security problem recently with it's JPEG renderer
so it is definitely advisable to get the latest version which is not
vulnerable to this and a number of other problems (4.75 for memory).
Incidentally, I've always found that running the version packaged for my
distribution gives unreliable results so I always download the .tar.gz
from Netscape and install this into /usr/local -- from my own experience
this has proved much more reliable.  Of course, YMMV.

Regards,

Christian.


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 12:36:20 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:36:20 +0800
Subject: netscape - was Re: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <39D418AF.D5102A7C@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <009f01c029d0$8cc793c0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D41C44.3C8EE915@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Kai wrote:
> 
> G'day Bret,
> 
> I dunno about anyone else, but apart from Messanger crashing when trying to
> email recipients from the address book I don't have any of these problem
> with NS 4.73 + in Linux. I use RH 6.2 and I also installed 4.73, that works
> too.
> 
> As I said, the only problem I have NS crashing when I try to send to
> multiple recipients from the address book.!
> It has never crashed my box so bad that I have to reinstall.
> 
> Maybe it's just me?
> 
> /Kai

Hello, Kai.

The version is 4.75 (the latest on the website), 17MB, 1 1/2 hours,
download. Maybe, it's just the version. But, when 4.72 (I think it was)
Messenger didn't access the data to which I pointed it (Inbox, etc), I
thought that I remembered that someone else on the list had had problems
with 4.72, so I downloaded 4.75, as I thought that that version may have
been less problematic (not so, apparently). 4.72 is the version that
came with RH 6.2, from memory.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From christian at amnet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 12:37:19 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:37:19 +0800
Subject: [plug] [OT] "spam, spam, spam, spam, loverly spam," ... - where are the vikngs?
In-Reply-To: <39D34018.147F6001@brooks.smileys.net>; from leon@brooks.smileys.net on Thu, Sep 28, 2000 at 08:56:56PM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000928142619.20739A-100000@live.wasp.net.au> <39D34018.147F6001@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <20000929123719.T24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Thu, Sep 28, 2000 at 08:56:56PM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote:
 
> Close. New versions of Outlook, when you change your email address,
> *automatically* mail your entire contact list [some of whom you may decidedly
> *not*want* to inform] with the details... and a cordial invitation to try MSN.
> So... a one-shot ILUVYOU virus, from the people who brought you the blue screen
> of death. Be ever so grateful!

Great privacy problem here if you happen to have someone's email address
in your address book that you don't want them to know you know.  Plus
all those mailing lists you're lurking on...


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 12:37:44 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:37:44 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Christian wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 11:39:49AM +0800, Matt Kemner wrote:
> > On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> >
> > > And, go back to 4.08? That was the version used on RH5.2.
> > >
> > > Does that run on RH6.2? It was previously run on RH 5.2, which had the
> > > 2.0.35 kernel (I think), whereas RH 6.2 has the 2.2.something kernel
> 
> > I'm still running the same version of Netscape I was running when I had
> > glibc2.0.
> 
> Netscape had a major security problem recently with it's JPEG renderer
> so it is definitely advisable to get the latest version which is not
> vulnerable to this and a number of other problems (4.75 for memory).
> Incidentally, I've always found that running the version packaged for my
> distribution gives unreliable results so I always download the .tar.gz
> from Netscape and install this into /usr/local -- from my own experience
> this has proved much more reliable.  Of course, YMMV.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Christian.

What is YMMV?

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From christian at amnet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 12:39:08 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:39:08 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
In-Reply-To: <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 12:37:44PM +0800
References: <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000929123908.U24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 12:37:44PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
 
> What is YMMV?

Your mileage may vary.  (I'm almost positive you've asked this before.)

AND FOR GOD'S SAKE, START TRIMMING UNNECESSARY QUOTAGE FROM YOUR
REPLIES!


From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Fri Sep 29 12:59:34 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:59:34 +0800
Subject: netscape - was Re: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <39D418AF.D5102A7C@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <009f01c029d0$8cc793c0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au> <39D41C44.3C8EE915@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00bd01c029d2$119c49a0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

4.72 and 4.73 have probs with the address book in messenger, try to send to
more than one person and it crashes, for me at least..other than that I have
no problems with it.
I'll admit, I am no expert at Linux, I've only been using it for 3 years and
I don't know much, if any programming.

> Hello, Kai.
>
> The version is 4.75 (the latest on the website), 17MB, 1 1/2 hours,
> download. Maybe, it's just the version. But, when 4.72 (I think it was)
> Messenger didn't access the data to which I pointed it (Inbox, etc), I
> thought that I remembered that someone else on the list had had problems
> with 4.72, so I downloaded 4.75, as I thought that that version may have
> been less problematic (not so, apparently). 4.72 is the version that
> came with RH 6.2, from memory.
>
> --
>
> Bret Busby



From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Fri Sep 29 12:47:53 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:47:53 +0800
Subject: [plug] [OT] "spam, spam, spam, spam, loverly spam," ... - where are the vikngs?
In-Reply-To: <20000929123719.T24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>; from christian@amnet.net.au on Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 12:37:19PM +0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000928142619.20739A-100000@live.wasp.net.au> <39D34018.147F6001@brooks.smileys.net> <20000929123719.T24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000929124753.F10790@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

Hiya,

On Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 12:37:19PM +0800, Christian wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 28, 2000 at 08:56:56PM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote:
>  
> > Close. New versions of Outlook, when you change your email address,
> > *automatically* mail your entire contact list [some of whom you may
> > decidedly  *not*want* to inform] with the details... and a cordial
> > invitation to try MSN. So... a one-shot ILUVYOU virus, from the people who
> > brought you the blue screen of death. Be ever so grateful!
> 
> Great privacy problem here if you happen to have someone's email address
> in your address book that you don't want them to know you know.  Plus
> all those mailing lists you're lurking on...

Not to mention the email is worded as if it's an endorsement by "you", rather
than MS (ie: they're putting words into your mouth). Also, since this is 
done during installation, the user hasn't even used the program yet!


Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 12:55:46 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:55:46 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000929123908.U24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Christian wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 12:37:44PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > What is YMMV?
> 
> Your mileage may vary.  (I'm almost positive you've asked this before.)
> 
> AND FOR GOD'S SAKE, START TRIMMING UNNECESSARY QUOTAGE FROM YOUR
> REPLIES!

Perhaps, using language that can be understood by all, could reduce
unnecessary bandwidth usage, which is used by people having to ask what
is meant by obscure abbreviations (fundamental rule of communication -
try to avoid jargon, as much as possible).

I believe that I have not asked before (although, I could be corrected).

You should, perhaps, consider others a bit, Christian; not everyone on
the list has either your fondness of, or familiarity with, these obscure
abbreviations. And, after the installfest, it is possible that new
subscribers may occur, who will, no doubt, similarly ask what these
things mean. People should not have to use a jargon dictionary, to be
able to use the mailing list.

Oh, and, I understood that it was extremely bad etiquette, to "shout",
via email, using big letters, as above. but, I may be wrong.


From sharpe at ns.aus.com  Thu Sep 28 22:39:36 2000
From: sharpe at ns.aus.com (Richard Sharpe)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:39:36 +0900
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
In-Reply-To: <20000929123908.U24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
References: <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
 <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
 <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
 <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000928233936.01c83480@203.16.214.248>

At 12:39 PM 9/29/00 +0800, Christian wrote:
>On Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 12:37:44PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> 
>> What is YMMV?
>
>Your mileage may vary.  (I'm almost positive you've asked this before.)

Well, obviously, YMMV, because I have always thought of it as Your Monster
May Vomit :-)

>AND FOR GOD'S SAKE, START TRIMMING UNNECESSARY QUOTAGE FROM YOUR
>REPLIES!
>
>

Regards
-------
Richard Sharpe, sharpe at ns.aus.com
Samba (Team member, www.samba.org), Ethereal (Team member, www.zing.org)
Contributing author, SAMS Teach Yourself Samba in 24 Hours
Author, Special Edition, Using Samba




From bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au  Fri Sep 29 13:22:02 2000
From: bigbadbill at dingoblue.net.au (Garry)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:22:02 +0800
Subject: [plug] Replication for PostgreSQL
In-Reply-To: <39D2B074.87313BD@brooks.smileys.net>
References: <39D2B074.87313BD@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <00092913333700.02318@eva>

Doesn't your distribution come with a FTP client? Be supprised if it didn't
Brett. My stock Mandrake installation came with Lftp, gFTP, Dpsftp and NCFtp.

If not installed, then def on the RH disk..

Try something like ftp.aarnet.edu.au/pub/ .

Hope that helps..

Garry..


From christian at amnet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 13:41:10 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:41:10 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
In-Reply-To: <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 12:55:46PM +0800
References: <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000929123908.U24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000929134110.V24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 12:55:46PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
 
> Perhaps, using language that can be understood by all, could reduce
> unnecessary bandwidth usage, which is used by people having to ask what
> is meant by obscure abbreviations (fundamental rule of communication -
> try to avoid jargon, as much as possible).

It's not obscure at all.  It's a very well-known acronym that's been in
use on the Internet for many, many years.  In fact, a quick search of
the PLUG archives shows its use in 41 different emails.  In fact, it was
used on this list two days ago in a thread concerning iinet that YOU
participated in.  If you'd been paying ANY attention at all then you
would have noticed it.  BTW, don't bother pleading ignorance -- it's
entirely unnecessary. 

Also a search of Altavista produces over 15,000 instances of the
acronym.  If you'd really wanted to know then you could have searched
for any of these 15,000 sites (many of which I'm sure are explanations
of the acronym).

> You should, perhaps, consider others a bit, Christian; not everyone on
> the list has either your fondness of, or familiarity with, these obscure
> abbreviations. And, after the installfest, it is possible that new
> subscribers may occur, who will, no doubt, similarly ask what these
> things mean. People should not have to use a jargon dictionary, to be
> able to use the mailing list.

You're on a technical list, you can't avoid technical acronyms.  And,
even if everyone spelt out every single acronym, for many it wouldn't go
any further to explaining the concept involved.  If you don't like it
then unsubscribe yourself and give us all a break.

> Oh, and, I understood that it was extremely bad etiquette, to "shout",
> via email, using big letters, as above. but, I may be wrong.

It's bad etiquette to shout when there is no cause.  When people have
been asking someone for many months to start using their brain just a
TINY bit when quoting messages and he STILL doesn't get it (or is just
too plain lazy) and quotes about 30 lines to add a single line question
which has been asked and answered on this list several times before then
there plenty cause to shout I would say!

And that's the real problem here, not you asking what an acronym stands
for.  You've been asked time and time again to trim your replies but you
still don't.  Why not, Bret?  Is it because you don't see why you should
expend any of your own energy in making something a little more
acceptable for others?  It's funny that you should I suggest I think
about others more when you seem to ignore their wishes at every
opportunity.


From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 13:48:17 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:48:17 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000929123908.U24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000929134110.V24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D42D21.1AE4A898@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Christian wrote:
> 

A heap of really, unhelpful, unfriendly stuff, that just wasted
bandwidth

Smile, Christian; life can't be that bad. Remember, others have greater
problems than you (whatever your problem is).

And, remember, the solar system does not revolve around you. There are
bigger, more important entities.

I think, somehow, the other translation appears relevant here; the
monster did vomit.

:)

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From erazmus at wantree.com.au  Fri Sep 29 14:22:26 2000
From: erazmus at wantree.com.au (Mike from West Australia)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:22:26
Subject: [plug] [ot] H93mv scsi cdrom driver ?
Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20000929142226.467f41a8@mail.iinet.net.au>

At 09:53 AM 29/9/2000 +1100, you wrote:
>Mike,
>
>Do you have the SCSI controller driver? As a general rule,
>the DOS drivers for the SCSI card will include the required
>files to activate the SCSI CD-ROM.

mmm - I have the drivers for the card which runs 3 other scsi devices
fine :)

So are you saying all I need is to run mscdex ?

I would of thought I'd have to run some ?.sys file from config, then
use mscdex from autoexec to link it to a drive letter...

Rgds

Mike



From david.j.campbell at honeywell.com  Fri Sep 29 14:11:05 2000
From: david.j.campbell at honeywell.com (Campbell, David (Ex AS17))
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:11:05 +1100
Subject: [plug] [ot] H93mv scsi cdrom driver ?
Message-ID: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB01867DC9@HPACAS17002>

>>Do you have the SCSI controller driver? As a general rule,
>>the DOS drivers for the SCSI card will include the required
>>files to activate the SCSI CD-ROM.
>
>mmm - I have the drivers for the card which runs 3 other scsi devices
>fine :)

Mike,

There should be a ASPICD.SYS file on the floppy disk that
came with the SCSI controller. (This is providing the driver conforms
to the ASPI [Adaptec SCSI Programming Interface], most do...)

David Campbell

PS: I am looking into the parameters of that driver and will contact
you off-list...



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 14:16:24 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:16:24 +0800
Subject: [plug] Re: netscape
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <39D418AF.D5102A7C@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <009f01c029d0$8cc793c0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au> <39D41C44.3C8EE915@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <00bd01c029d2$119c49a0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D433B8.4532BFE1@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Kai wrote:
> 
> 4.72 and 4.73 have probs with the address book in messenger, try to send to
> more than one person and it crashes, for me at least..other than that I have
> no problems with it.
> I'll admit, I am no expert at Linux, I've only been using it for 3 years and
> I don't know much, if any programming.
> 

I also am no Linux expert.

I am using Netscape 4.74 on Win98. I have been able to broadcast
messages without any problems, using multiple addresses, from the
address book, with this version. I downloaded and installed it in July,
I believe.

I don't know whether the problem that you describe, may have disappeared
with 4.74, or, whether it is a problem, that is inherent in the Linux
version.

The Preference options are different, between the Win98 and the Linux
versions, with the Linux versions lacking some of the options that are
present in the Windows versions.

This makes me think that there may be bugs that are particular to the
Linux versions, such as the problems that you described.

The only problem that I have encountered (apart from crashing often),
across the three operating systems, and, across the different version
numbers, is the loss of the ability to file read messages from the
Inbox. I don't know whether that is a matter of the volume of emails,
or, whether it is something else. I have advised Netscape (also, of the
problem regarding  the latest Linux versions of Netscape not finding the
Inbox); it is a matter of waiting for a response.

Have you advised Netscape of the problems that you have encountered? It
may be worthwhile.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From skribe at amber.com.au  Fri Sep 29 14:17:37 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:17:37 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
In-Reply-To: <20000929134110.V24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
References: <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
 <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
 <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
 <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
 <20000929123908.U24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
 <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20000929141600.04a3e070@amber.com.au>

At 13:41 29/09/00, Christian wrote:
>It's a very well-known acronym that's been in
>use on the Internet for many, many years

It's been around at least since 1993.

skribe
         Purity:                           62.0%
         Corruption:                    38.0%
         Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
         Weirdness factor:           31%
         Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
         Medieval Career:            Black Knight



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 14:58:12 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:58:12 +0800
Subject: [plug] Acronyms and obscurity - was Re: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
	 <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
	 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
	 <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
	 <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
	 <20000929123908.U24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
	 <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <5.0.0.25.0.20000929141600.04a3e070@amber.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D43D84.5A647C35@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

skribe wrote:
> 
> At 13:41 29/09/00, Christian wrote:
> >It's a very well-known acronym that's been in
> >use on the Internet for many, many years
> 
> It's been around at least since 1993.
> 

Obscure - not clearly expressed or easily understood.
 - Concise Oxford Dictionary, 8th edition

Whilst these acronyms may have been around for a few years, it does not
follow that everyone either understands, or remembers, what the letters
respresent. The alternative, referring the unhealthy monster, is an
example. Some have different meanings, some at least half a dozen
different meanings.

Thus, to a person who does not remember what one represents (and, I
remember about only two or three; IMO, IMHO, RTFM - not sure whether the
first is valid, or is used), the acronym is obscure.

A phrase, that has been around for thousands of years (about 2050 years,
from memory), and, which is widely used, and, no doubt, will have many
results from search engines, is "audi alteram partem" - first usage
acknowledged, is in Seneca's Medea. But, the only other person, apart
from me, on this list, that I would regard as being likely to know what
it means, without any research, is Jeremy Malcolm. It is a fairly
commonly used phrase, possibly moreso than the acronym mentioned.
However, I would not be inclined to use the phrase on this list, in that
form, in normal messages, as I would regard it as too obscure. And, on a
mailing list, the readers should be able to easily understand the terms
used, without having to translate them.

The usage of acronyms, seldom directly relates directly to Linux, as
does the phrase mentioned. The only acronyms, of which I can think, at
present, that relate directly to Linux, are OS, and RH. No doubt, there
will be more.

I believe that it is a matter of courtesy, to use language in a message,
that makes it easy to read and understand, by a reader, but, obviously,
others on the list disagree.

And, as I mentioned in a previous posting, the installfest may result in
people reading these messages, who haven't got a clue, as to the meaning
of the acronyms. Should they also be told as has been suggested, to get
lost?

Does that then mean that the mailing list is solely for the benefit of a
noisy few?

These are things for people to consider, if they have open minds.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From david.j.campbell at honeywell.com  Fri Sep 29 15:15:40 2000
From: david.j.campbell at honeywell.com (Campbell, David (Ex AS17))
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:15:40 +1100
Subject: [plug] Offtopic - Games night anyone?
Message-ID: <A74F3AB124F4D111A06A00A0C9B412FB01867DF3@HPACAS17002>

Would anyone be interested in a games night (of the Quake, Doom, etc sort)?

The Gamers Guild have a monthly "LAN Bash" (next one is on Sunday from
memory). Does anyone object if we challenge them to a session say in a
month's time? (given half a chance and they would probably challenge us
first).

For your info they meet at St Jacobs hall (oposite "The Heart in the Park"
shopping center in Vic Park), ground level access, plenty of caffine on hand
(coffee, coke, Jolt, etc) and fairly central.

David Campbell

PS: I will be meeting a couple of there computer gaming group tommorow...


From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Fri Sep 29 15:30:23 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:30:23 +0800
Subject: [plug] Re: netscape
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <39D418AF.D5102A7C@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <009f01c029d0$8cc793c0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au> <39D41C44.3C8EE915@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <00bd01c029d2$119c49a0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au> <39D433B8.4532BFE1@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00e701c029e7$218c4940$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

> Have you advised Netscape of the problems that you have encountered? It
> may be worthwhile.

No..god idea though.
I have downloaded NS 6 PR2 for Linux (Red Hat 6.2) and tried to install
it...the scripts activate but something's missing because it doesn't finish
installing and there's no netscape binary where it should be.
I downloaded it from Netscape, Aarnet mirror and a Tucows mirror and no luck

Anyone had any luck with 6 PR2 for Red Hat 6.2?



From russ at embedit.com.au  Fri Sep 29 15:17:50 2000
From: russ at embedit.com.au (russ)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:17:50 +0800
Subject: [plug] Acronyms and obscurity - was Re: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
		 <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
		 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
		 <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
		 <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
		 <20000929123908.U24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
		 <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <5.0.0.25.0.20000929141600.04a3e070@amber.com.au> <39D43D84.5A647C35@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D4421E.B40B4F07@embedit.com.au>

This may help.

http://members.aol.com/nigthomas/alphabet.txt


Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> skribe wrote:
> >
> > At 13:41 29/09/00, Christian wrote:
> > >It's a very well-known acronym that's been in
> > >use on the Internet for many, many years
> >
> > It's been around at least since 1993.
> >
> 
> Obscure - not clearly expressed or easily understood.
>  - Concise Oxford Dictionary, 8th edition
> 
> Whilst these acronyms may have been around for a few years, it does not
> follow that everyone either understands, or remembers, what the letters
> respresent. The alternative, referring the unhealthy monster, is an
> example. Some have different meanings, some at least half a dozen
> different meanings.
> 
> Thus, to a person who does not remember what one represents (and, I
> remember about only two or three; IMO, IMHO, RTFM - not sure whether the
> first is valid, or is used), the acronym is obscure.
> 
> A phrase, that has been around for thousands of years (about 2050 years,
> from memory), and, which is widely used, and, no doubt, will have many
> results from search engines, is "audi alteram partem" - first usage
> acknowledged, is in Seneca's Medea. But, the only other person, apart
> from me, on this list, that I would regard as being likely to know what
> it means, without any research, is Jeremy Malcolm. It is a fairly
> commonly used phrase, possibly moreso than the acronym mentioned.
> However, I would not be inclined to use the phrase on this list, in that
> form, in normal messages, as I would regard it as too obscure. And, on a
> mailing list, the readers should be able to easily understand the terms
> used, without having to translate them.
> 
> The usage of acronyms, seldom directly relates directly to Linux, as
> does the phrase mentioned. The only acronyms, of which I can think, at
> present, that relate directly to Linux, are OS, and RH. No doubt, there
> will be more.
> 
> I believe that it is a matter of courtesy, to use language in a message,
> that makes it easy to read and understand, by a reader, but, obviously,
> others on the list disagree.
> 
> And, as I mentioned in a previous posting, the installfest may result in
> people reading these messages, who haven't got a clue, as to the meaning
> of the acronyms. Should they also be told as has been suggested, to get
> lost?
> 
> Does that then mean that the mailing list is solely for the benefit of a
> noisy few?
> 
> These are things for people to consider, if they have open minds.
> 
> --
> 
> Bret Busby
> 
> ......................................
> "So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
> answer means."
>  - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
>  - Douglas Adams, 1988
> ......................................


From cwilliam at erggroup.com  Fri Sep 29 15:33:27 2000
From: cwilliam at erggroup.com (cwilliam at erggroup.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:33:27 +0800
Subject: [plug] Offtopic - Games night anyone?
Message-ID: <OF617926FA.F982D84E-ON48256969.00295E0C@erggroup.com>


I'm interested if anyone knows of a FAQ or somethin that would shown me how
to get Quake or Doom running under alphalinux!!




"Campbell, David (Ex AS17)" <david.j.campbell at honeywell.com> on 09/29/2000
03:15:40 PM

Please respond to plug at plug.linux.org.au

To:   plug at plug.linux.org.au
cc:

Subject:  [plug] Offtopic - Games night anyone?


Would anyone be interested in a games night (of the Quake, Doom, etc sort)?

The Gamers Guild have a monthly "LAN Bash" (next one is on Sunday from
memory). Does anyone object if we challenge them to a session say in a
month's time? (given half a chance and they would probably challenge us
first).

For your info they meet at St Jacobs hall (oposite "The Heart in the Park"
shopping center in Vic Park), ground level access, plenty of caffine on
hand
(coffee, coke, Jolt, etc) and fairly central.

David Campbell

PS: I will be meeting a couple of there computer gaming group tommorow...







---------------------------- ERG Group --------------------------
 The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential
 and may only be read by the intended recipient.
-----------------------------------------------------------------



From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Fri Sep 29 15:49:20 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:49:20 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
In-Reply-To: <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929152434.26767A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> Christian wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 12:37:44PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> > > What is YMMV?
> > Your mileage may vary.  (I'm almost positive you've asked this before.)
> > AND FOR GOD'S SAKE, START TRIMMING UNNECESSARY QUOTAGE FROM YOUR
> > REPLIES!
> Perhaps, using language that can be understood by all, could reduce
> unnecessary bandwidth usage,
Since that is one of the most widely used acronyms on the 'net, and has
been explained at least twice before on this very list (the archives are
searchable, you know?) I think it counts as language that can be
understood by all. Anyone on a Linux mailing list is probably capable of
finding out the rudimentary information necessary to use a tool, be it a
piece of software or a world-wide network. I have another acronym for you.
RTFF.

> (fundamental rule of communication - try to avoid jargon, as much as
> possible).
This goes some way to explaining why you are such an ineffectual
communicator. Jargon (in most cases) develops as a set of common terms of
reference to facilitate concise expression. The shared body of
understanding allows for concepts to be put across clearly and concisely,
by alluding to, rather than distractingly and obscuringly detailing what
is already commonly understood by those listening. If you don't have the
common understanding that everyone else does, there are myriad places to
look things up.

> I believe that I have not asked before (although, I could be corrected).
Regardless, it has definitely been answered before.

> You should, perhaps, consider others a bit, Christian; 
> not everyone on the list has either your fondness of, or familiarity
> with, these obscure abbreviations.
Not everyone, no, but you are in a minority approaching one. Most people
pass quickly and easily from the stage of not comprehending to
understanding and appreciating the clarity and economy of expression.

> And, after the installfest, it is possible that new subscribers may
> occur, who will, no doubt, similarly ask what these things mean.
Good. As new Linux users, they will do well to learn how to find things
like this out.

> People should not have to use a jargon dictionary, to be able to use the
> mailing list.
I would dispute that. (surprise :)
If the discussion is constantly bogged down in revised minutae covered
umpteen times already, then those who got it the first time are likely to
lose interest. When the well-clued leave, it will be the newer members who
suffer from the lack of their knowledge and experience.

While I agree there is no point in deliberately obscuring one's point or
using jargon that does not elucidate or simplify, the signal-to-noise
ratio can only increase if people use well-known terms and that most
readers will understand and let the others educate themselves with the
archives or a search engine or someother reference.

> Oh, and, I understood that it was extremely bad etiquette, to "shout",
> via email, using big letters, as above. but, I may be wrong.
You didn't seem to hear us when we spoke in lower case.
We have said it in lower case countlesstimes now.

> >From what I understand, these obscure abbreviations, like cantonese
> characters, can have many meanings, which can depend on context.
Then you probably don't understand.

> So the passages in which they occur, may need to be included, to get the
> meanings in context.
Yes. Quoting the surrounding phrase, or even the whole sentence can be
useful. Quoting the entire post is pointless, wasteful, and likely to
prevent people bothering to read or respond to your question. Most people
just hit delete when an email comes up with nothing but quoted text on the
first page. It's not worth the effort to read it all again.

Quoting too much text obscures your point and makes it difficult to see
which part you are responding too. The easier something is to read, the
more likely you will get a response, and the less likely you will get
flamed. Simple.

-Greg



From thallam at ee.uwa.edu.au  Fri Sep 29 15:55:08 2000
From: thallam at ee.uwa.edu.au (Tom Hallam)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:55:08 +0800
Subject: [plug] SAGE-WA October Meeting.
Message-ID: <39D44ADC.473BF485@ee.uwa.edu.au>

----------------------------------+----------------------------------

                       SAGE-WA October Meeting

               System Administrators Guild of Australia
                          WA Regional Group
                      http://www.sage-au.org.au/

----------------------------------+----------------------------------

Date:       Wednesday 4th October 
Time:       Pre Meeting drinks at back of pub	6:00pm
            Meeting starts in Raine Room  	6:30pm

Location:   The Moon and Sixpence
            300 Murray St Perth

            The meeting will be in Raine Room

            ***    NOTE CHANGE IN ROOM    ***

            GO to the right as you come in the
            main doors of the moon and sixpence
            
Meeting Topic:

	Directory Services - Novels NDS.
	Ped Ristic - IT Manager for the Faculty 
                     of Medicine and Dentistry at UWA.

Ped Ristic is the IT Manager for the Faculty of Medicine and
Dentistry at UWA.  He recommends then promotes policies and procedures 
to the Faculty, provides leadership in developing awareness of new 
opportunities and allocates and controls human resources.  The Faculty 
is made up of ~500 staff and ~800 students and is located in all the
major teaching hospitals. The organisation and management of a
distributed system such as this provides unique challenges and
experiences.

His talk to SAGE will be on Directory Services.  His experience is
mainly
with NDS but the X.500 principles involved are the same and would be
just
as applicable to Microsoft Active Directory as well as LDAP.  The
example he
will use will be his own system and the issues faced when designing a
DS
for your organisation.

After the meeting:
       Some light food will be available after the meeting.  
       Stay around, have a drink and get to know your fellow
       system administrators

If you are interested in SAGE or just curious then please come along
to the meeting.  If you are a SAGE member then please bring a friend
or associate.

If you wish to have some input into the future of SAGE-WA or wish to
know more about future meetings and are not able to attend this
meeting then please contact me.

----------------------------------+----------------------------------

-- 
*****************************************************************
Tom Hallam                                     ph: (08) 9380 1634
Information Systems Manager.                  fax: (08) 9380 1065
Dept. Electrical and Electronic Engineering. mobile: 0410 453 630
University of Western Australia                           rm: G72
http://www.ee.uwa.edu.au/~thallam    mailto:thallam at ee.uwa.edu.au
*****************************************************************


From apolglaze at book-keepingnetwork.com.au  Fri Sep 29 16:06:48 2000
From: apolglaze at book-keepingnetwork.com.au (Alex Polglaze)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:06:48 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929152434.26767A-100000@live.wasp.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D44D98.FBA6037A@book-keepingnetwork.com.au>



The Thought Assassin wrote:

> Yes. Quoting the surrounding phrase, or even the whole sentence can be
> useful. Quoting the entire post is pointless, wasteful, and likely to
> prevent people bothering to read or respond to your question. Most people
> just hit delete when an email comes up with nothing but quoted text on the
> first page. It's not worth the effort to read it all again.
> 

HEAR HEAR!! TOUCH? (deliberately in upper case for sound effect)

Couldn't have said it better myself.

WELL DONE Greg.

Alex


From dennisp at tiwest.com.au  Fri Sep 29 16:13:26 2000
From: dennisp at tiwest.com.au (Dennis Plester)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:13:26 +0800
Subject: [plug] Offtopic - Games night anyone?
Message-ID: <4FCDA47A468BD311B46800A0C9D4C2BE4A6374@mucxs1.tiwest.com.au>

The challenge sounds like a great idea to me. Count me in for the one
potentially in a month's time.

Games nights, LAN parties, call them what you will, are a great way test out
your hardware, meet new people, share common interests, and then blow them
to smithereens! 

Dennis.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Campbell, David (Ex AS17)
[SMTP:david.j.campbell at honeywell.com]
	Sent:	Friday, 29 September 2000 15:06
	To:	plug at plug.linux.org.au
	Subject:	[plug] Offtopic - Games night anyone?

	Would anyone be interested in a games night (of the Quake, Doom, etc
sort)?

	The Gamers Guild have a monthly "LAN Bash" (next one is on Sunday
from
	memory). Does anyone object if we challenge them to a session say in
a
	month's time? (given half a chance and they would probably challenge
us
	first).

	For your info they meet at St Jacobs hall (oposite "The Heart in the
Park"
	shopping center in Vic Park), ground level access, plenty of caffine
on hand
	(coffee, coke, Jolt, etc) and fairly central.

	David Campbell

	PS: I will be meeting a couple of there computer gaming group
tommorow...


From steveg at calm.wa.gov.au  Fri Sep 29 16:19:39 2000
From: steveg at calm.wa.gov.au (Steve Grasso)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:19:39 +0800
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
In-Reply-To: <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
References: <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000929123908.U24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00092916212003.00790@pluto.calm.wa.gov.au>

On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> Christian wrote:
> > 
> > On Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 12:37:44PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> > 
> > > What is YMMV?
> > 
> > Your mileage may vary.  (I'm almost positive you've asked this before.)
> > 
> > AND FOR GOD'S SAKE, START TRIMMING UNNECESSARY QUOTAGE FROM YOUR
> > REPLIES!
> 
> Perhaps, using language that can be understood by all, could reduce
> unnecessary bandwidth usage, which is used by people having to ask what
> is meant by obscure abbreviations (fundamental rule of communication -
> try to avoid jargon, as much as possible).

This exact question was asked by John Breen and answered by me on Sept 12

AND FOR GOD'S SAKE, START TRIMMING UNNECESSARY QUOTAGE FROM YOUR
REPLIES!   :-)

Steve


From assassin at live.wasp.net.au  Fri Sep 29 16:24:50 2000
From: assassin at live.wasp.net.au (The Thought Assassin)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:24:50 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Acronyms and obscurity - was Re: [plug] wine, netscape
In-Reply-To: <39D43D84.5A647C35@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929155117.26767B-100000@live.wasp.net.au>

On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Bret Busby wrote:
> Obscure - not clearly expressed or easily understood.
>  - Concise Oxford Dictionary, 8th edition
The point was expressed clearly. Almost everyone understood it easily.
Even you would have understood it easily if you looked it up, and you
would then perhaps have started using it and become, in that small way, a
more effective participant on the list.

> Whilst these acronyms may have been around for a few years, it does not
> follow that everyone either understands, or remembers, what the letters
> respresent.
But it does follow that they can look it up. You only have to do it once,
and then you can follow the list in its preferred form, and express
yourself moreclearly and succinctly. It's a small price to pay.

> The alternative, referring the unhealthy monster, is an example.
ROFL. That is not an accepted acronym. That was a joke.

> Some have different meanings,
They do?

> some at least half a dozen different meanings.
Name one.

> Thus, to a person who does not remember what one represents (and, I
> remember about only two or three; IMO, IMHO, RTFM - not sure whether the
> first is valid, or is used), the acronym is obscure.
How sad for you. Isn't it nice that you have such a resource as the
internet at your fingertips. Now say thankyou to whoever introduces this
new term to you.

> A phrase, that has been around for thousands of years (about 2050 years,
> from memory), and, which is widely used <...> is "audi alteram partem"
Widely used online? Widely used on Linux-related mailing lists?

> It is a fairly commonly used phrase, possibly moreso than the acronym
> mentioned.
More commonly used online? On Linux-related mailing lists?

> However, I would not be inclined to use the phrase on this list, in that
> form, in normal messages, as I would regard it as too obscure.
Even if everyone else used it?

> And, on a mailing list, the readers should be able to easily understand
> the terms used, without having to translate them.
I couldn't have said it better. You should be able to easily understand
the term YMMV. If not, maybe you should give up on reading the list.

> The usage of acronyms, seldom directly relates directly to Linux, as
> does the phrase mentioned.
Indeed. Hence its use everywhere else on the 'net.

> And, as I mentioned in a previous posting, the installfest may result in
> people reading these messages, who haven't got a clue, as to the meaning
> of the acronyms. Should they also be told as has been suggested, to get
> lost?
Noone has told you to get lost. They have told you to RTFF, RTFM, RTFRFC,
etc. If they wanted you to get lost, then what would be the point in
telling you to do those things?

> Does that then mean that the mailing list is solely for the benefit of a
> noisy few?
No, it is for the benefit of those prepared to listen. If you are not
prepared to listen, and to speak the language that everyone else here
does, you may be out of luck. In general it is very difficult to change
the culture of an established group to fit the needs of one individual who
is not interested in meeting his needs himself.

-Greg



From psteege at tpg.com.au  Fri Sep 29 16:28:13 2000
From: psteege at tpg.com.au (Phillip Steege)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:28:13 +0800
Subject: [plug] Wine and Sierra Games
Message-ID: <005401c029ef$350f6da0$0200a8c0@pappo>

Has anyone successfully used Wine with any of the Sierra city building series games (Caesar 3 or Pharaoh) ?
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From ojw at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 17:13:04 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:13:04 +0000
Subject: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000929123908.U24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000929134110.V24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D45D20.8A20011D@iinet.net.au>

Christian wrote:

> You're on a technical list, you can't avoid technical acronyms.  And,
> even if everyone spelt out every single acronym, for many it wouldn't go
> any further to explaining the concept involved.  If you don't like it
> then unsubscribe yourself and give us all a break.

Just think of the bandwidth requirements should anyone wish to write about
GNU is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix
is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix
is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix
is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix
is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix
is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix
is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix
is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix
is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix
is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix
is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix
is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix
is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix
is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix
is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix
is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix
is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix is Not Unix *PANT PANT PANT*

--
Oliver White



From ojw at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 17:14:52 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:14:52 +0000
Subject: [plug] Acronyms and obscurity - was Re: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
		 <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
		 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
		 <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
		 <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
		 <20000929123908.U24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
		 <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <5.0.0.25.0.20000929141600.04a3e070@amber.com.au> <39D43D84.5A647C35@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D45D8C.A490ECC@iinet.net.au>

Bret Busby wrote:

> These are things for people to consider, if they have open minds.

Must be nice to feel the spring breeze on the inside of your skull, Bret.

--
Oliver White



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 17:23:29 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:23:29 +0800
Subject: [plug] Acronyms and obscurity - was Re: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
			 <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
			 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
			 <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
			 <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
			 <20000929123908.U24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
			 <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <5.0.0.25.0.20000929141600.04a3e070@amber.com.au> <39D43D84.5A647C35@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39D45D8C.A490ECC@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D45F91.273C5DED@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Oliver White wrote:
> 
> Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > These are things for people to consider, if they have open minds.
> 
> Must be nice to feel the spring breeze on the inside of your skull, Bret.
> 
> --
> Oliver White

Congatulations.

The question is clearly answered.

The mailing list is solely for the benefit of the noisy few.

Hard luck for anyone with a genuine interest in Linux, that comes to the
mailing list for help.

QED.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From ojw at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 17:36:59 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:36:59 +0000
Subject: [plug] Acronyms and obscurity - was Re: [plug] wine, netscape
References: <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
				 <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
				 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
				 <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
				 <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
				 <20000929123908.U24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
				 <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <5.0.0.25.0.20000929141600.04a3e070@amber.com.au> <39D43D84.5A647C35@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39D45D8C.A490ECC@iinet.net.au> <39D45F91.273C5DED@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D462BB.7DD63D7B@iinet.net.au>

Bret Busby wrote:

> Hard luck for anyone with a genuine interest in Linux, that comes to the
> mailing list for help.

Think to yourself, Bret. How often do you get praised for your contributions
to this list. Do you really think there's a silent majority on the list who
support you? If they would speak up now I will eat my words and appologise in
person for the slight.

--
Oliver White



From bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 17:50:08 2000
From: bret at clearsol.iinet.net.au (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:50:08 +0800
Subject: Gratuitous acrimonious bickering - was Re: [plug] Acronyms and obscurity 
References: <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
					 <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
					 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au>
					 <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
					 <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
					 <20000929123908.U24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
					 <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <5.0.0.25.0.20000929141600.04a3e070@amber.com.au> <39D43D84.5A647C35@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39D45D8C.A490ECC@iinet.net.au> <39D45F91.273C5DED@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39D462BB.7DD63D7B@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D465D0.6DDA2CB5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>

Oliver White wrote:
> 
> Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> > Hard luck for anyone with a genuine interest in Linux, that comes to the
> > mailing list for help.
> 
> Think to yourself, Bret. How often do you get praised for your contributions
> to this list. Do you really think there's a silent majority on the list who
> support you? If they would speak up now I will eat my words and appologise in
> person for the slight.
> 
> --
> Oliver White


I would think that anyone who is not primarily interested in the
mindless bickering, would be inclined to stay away from it, apart from
the victim, who has been trying to end the bickering..

If you think that this is all a matter of "lets attack Bret, all those
against him on this side of the line, and all those against him on that
side of the line", and, your obvious attempt at point scoring, that is
unfortunate.

This mailing list was once related to Linux, and to helping people with
Linux queries.

It is unfortunate that it has lost its way, to be taken over by people
more interested in hostile campaigns.

Hopefully, matters relating to Linux, will, sometime, again be present
on the list, without the mindless bickering.

-- 

Bret Busby

......................................
"So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the
answer means."
 - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 - Douglas Adams, 1988 
......................................


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Fri Sep 29 17:53:38 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:53:38 +0800
Subject: [plug] Can you hear a sound like the breaking of waves?
Message-ID: <39D466A2.270CF426@brooks.smileys.net>

Today, out of the blue, a cousin of mine rang and asked me, "Leon, is there
anything I can run on my computer besides Windows?" Next week, he tries Linux.

Then an employer of mine asked if there was another mail client he coyuld use
"like Outlook, but without the viruses?" A computer of his sits to my right,
waiting for me to install KDE2 and Evolution.

Lots of things like this, and the overwhelming response to our InstallFest, lead
me to believe that Linux has hit critical mass, and at the same time Microsoft's
bubble is bursting.

Have you had similar experiences?

-- 
#include <signal.h>
#include <time.h>
main(){srandom(time(0));for(;;){int pid=random()%30000;if(pid>1
&&pid!=getpid())kill(pid,random()&1?SIGSTOP:SIGBUS);sleep(10);}}


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Fri Sep 29 17:57:41 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:57:41 +0800
Subject: [plug] AARNet (was PostgreSQL)
References: <39D2B074.87313BD@brooks.smileys.net> <00092913333700.02318@eva>
Message-ID: <39D46795.86B8D515@brooks.smileys.net>

Garry wrote:
> Try something like ftp.aarnet.edu.au/pub/ .

mirror.aarnet.edu.au - and it works on exactly the same URIs with HTTP.

-- 
"I have been listening," said Arthur, "but I'm not sure it's helped."
Ford grasped him by the lapels of his dressing gown and spoke to him 
as slowly and distinctly and patiently as if he were somebody from a 
telephone company accounts department. -- Douglas Adams


From skribe at amber.com.au  Fri Sep 29 17:58:27 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:58:27 +0800
Subject: [plug] Can you hear a sound like the breaking of waves?
In-Reply-To: <39D466A2.270CF426@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20000929175632.04a14bb0@amber.com.au>

At 17:53 29/09/00, Leon Brooks wrote:
>A computer of his sits to my right,
>waiting for me to install KDE2 and Evolution.

Speaking of which.  What's the best way to upgrade Mandrake 7.1 to 
KDE2?  My wife wants a better mail reader.  She doesn't like any of the 
ones she's seen.

skribe
         Purity:                           62.0%
         Corruption:                    38.0%
         Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
         Weirdness factor:           31%
         Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
         Medieval Career:            Black Knight



From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Fri Sep 29 18:00:29 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:00:29 +0800
Subject: [plug] Yesterday's PC Tiff
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009291029140.3156-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>
Message-ID: <39D4683D.EF993CD1@brooks.smileys.net>

Mike Holland wrote:
>>>> NetNanny,  and when it detected the word "cum" in "cucumbers,"

Gee, here was me thinking that one of the big advantages of cucumbers for half
the human race was that they _didn't_... no, we won't go there.

> Seriously, how can you possibly filter every page with 'cum' in a word? It
> catches 'document' for a start.

Locum, cumquat, cumbersome, scumbag, cumulative, vobiscum...

-- 
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?"
Then a deep voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one
night." -- Charlie Brown, "Peanuts" [Charles Schulz]


From ojw at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 18:08:39 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:08:39 +0000
Subject: [plug] Sorry for that little outburst
Message-ID: <39D46A27.560AE22C@iinet.net.au>

Sorry about that. It was inappropriate for the list. Bret's mails are
now routed to /dev/null.

--
Oliver White



From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Fri Sep 29 18:32:46 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:32:46 +0800
Subject: [plug] Sorry for that little outburst
References: <39D46A27.560AE22C@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <004d01c02a00$9be02ae0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

G'day !!

I don't wanna get into this sh t sessions, so I'll say this:
If you wanna flame and b tch at each other you wanna do it off the list?

If I had just signed up to plug and saw those mails I'd be unsubscribing
just as quick.
Please, can we have Linux stuff in the Linux user group?

Thanks fella's (and any chicks we have out there).
Take a deep breath and chill out eh? there's enough crap going on in the
world without the brains of PLUG having a go at each other too !!

/Kai

----- Original Message -----
From: "Oliver White" <ojw at iinet.net.au>
To: "PLUG" <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 6:08 PM
Subject: [plug] Sorry for that little outburst


> Sorry about that. It was inappropriate for the list. Bret's mails are
> now routed to /dev/null.
>
> --
> Oliver White
>
>
>



From ojw at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 18:17:23 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:17:23 +0000
Subject: [plug] Can you hear a sound like the breaking of waves?
References: <39D466A2.270CF426@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <39D46C33.BDFAC8AC@iinet.net.au>

Leon Brooks wrote:

> Lots of things like this, and the overwhelming response to our InstallFest, lead
> me to believe that Linux has hit critical mass, and at the same time Microsoft's
> bubble is bursting.
>
> Have you had similar experiences?

It is indeed exciting. I'm currently involved in the WorldForge project, as you all
know. We've been working to develop a gaming platform for nearly two years now. I
keep thinking "This is going to be as big in the gaming markets as linux is in the
OS market". The fact of the matter is that no one is doing what we're doing, and no
one has a reason to compete with us. We're not developing one game, but a whole
range of tools for developing games. We've already had a little interest from
commercial gaming companies, and that's exciting in itself.

What's even more exciting is that we've actually been in contact with some serious
guru game programmers. Not quite John Ramero, but up there. I've often said "Can
you help us get more attention" or something of the like, and they tell me they
don't need to, that the project is assured success. In a way it feels like we're
just a bunch of people being sucked into a naturally abhorant vacume.

I'm comming to the conclusion that you can't compete with freedom, you can only
resist it's pull.

--
Oliver White



From ojw at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 18:20:49 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:20:49 +0000
Subject: [plug] Sorry for that little outburst
References: <39D46A27.560AE22C@iinet.net.au> <004d01c02a00$9be02ae0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D46D01.451935F7@iinet.net.au>

Kai wrote:

> G'day !!
>
> I don't wanna get into this sh t sessions, so I'll say this:
> If you wanna flame and b tch at each other you wanna do it off the list?

Yep, I'm sorry. Twont happen again.

--
Oliver White



From skribe at amber.com.au  Fri Sep 29 18:33:37 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:33:37 +0800
Subject: [plug] Can you hear a sound like the breaking of waves?
In-Reply-To: <39D46C33.BDFAC8AC@iinet.net.au>
References: <39D466A2.270CF426@brooks.smileys.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20000929182606.038a5d80@amber.com.au>

At 18:17 29/09/00, Oliver White wrote:
>I'm comming to the conclusion that you can't compete with freedom, you can 
>only
>resist it's pull.

And I hope we all know what the price of freedom is.  The Open Source 
movement has turned the computing world on its head (some might say 
returned it to its origins), but never underestimate the power of greed.

skribe
         Purity:                           62.0%
         Corruption:                    38.0%
         Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
         Weirdness factor:           31%
         Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
         Medieval Career:            Black Knight



From jlmiller at mmtnetworks.com.au  Fri Sep 29 18:57:52 2000
From: jlmiller at mmtnetworks.com.au (Jon  Miller)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:57:52 +0800
Subject: [plug] Offtopic - Games night anyone?
Message-ID: <s9d4e637.076@gateway.mmtnetworks.com.au>

I would like to hear more on this subject and their meetings.

Jon L. Miller, MCNE ASE
Director/Sr Systems Consultant
MMT Networks Pty Ltd
PH: +61 8 9242 8600
FX: +61 8 9242 8611

>>> david.j.campbell at honeywell.com 3:15:40 pm 29/09/2000 >>>
Would anyone be interested in a games night (of the Quake, Doom, etc sort)?

The Gamers Guild have a monthly "LAN Bash" (next one is on Sunday from
memory). Does anyone object if we challenge them to a session say in a
month's time? (given half a chance and they would probably challenge us
first).

For your info they meet at St Jacobs hall (oposite "The Heart in the Park"
shopping center in Vic Park), ground level access, plenty of caffine on hand
(coffee, coke, Jolt, etc) and fairly central.

David Campbell

PS: I will be meeting a couple of there computer gaming group tommorow...




From billk at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 29 19:02:03 2000
From: billk at iinet.net.au (BillK)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 19:02:03 +0800
Subject: [plug] netscape
References: <39D40BBB.78C6B557@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000929113534.6668Z-100000@mercury.wasp.net.au> <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D476AB.363EEFA9@iinet.net.au>

The Mandrake 4.75 versions of Netscape are apparently compiled against
the newer glibc2.something libs.  After some horror with 4.74 (glibc5),
setting of the environment variables made it reasonably stable.  Since
(rpm) upgrading to 4.75, it has proven entirely stable, with only one or
two crashes that I can remember (well as stable as a bloated browser can
be!) over a couple of months From the above, it may be that its actually
the older glibc packages and incorrectly set up environment causing most
of the grief - the environment is at least easily fixable.

BillK


From jlmiller at mmtnetworks.com.au  Fri Sep 29 19:33:19 2000
From: jlmiller at mmtnetworks.com.au (Jon  Miller)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 19:33:19 +0800
Subject: [plug] re: Calamari and DVD setup
Message-ID: <s9d4ee84.077@gateway.mmtnetworks.com.au>

Just want to know if anyone has setup calamari and a DVD drive on RH6.2 or/and Debian?


Jon L. Miller, MCNE ASE
Director/Sr Systems Consultant
MMT Networks Pty Ltd
PH: +61 8 9242 8600
FX: +61 8 9242 8611



From ari at scientist.com  Fri Sep 29 20:07:33 2000
From: ari at scientist.com (Ari Finander)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:07:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [plug] FS: Last two 486 systems for Linux play-with 16mb RAM
Message-ID: <383524110.970229254994.JavaMail.root@web302-mc.mail.com>

I only have two 486 systems left:

1. Intel 486dx2 66mhz CPU, 16mb RAM, 525mb HDD (no errors), keyboard, TP network card, VGA card, 14" colour monitor, 3.5" FDD- $75

2. Intel 486dx2 66mhz CPU, 16mb RAM, 261.3mb HDD (no errors), keyboard, TP network card, VGA card, 14" colour monitor 3.5" FDD- $75

Also:

1.  AMD 486dx2 50mhz CPU, 8mb RAM, 261.3mb HDD (no errors), TP network card, VGA card, 3.5" FDD- $40

2.  72 Pin RAM in 4mb cards: $5 each

3.  Logitech WingMan Lite joystick in box $20

4.  Gravids Blackhawk joystick in box $20

5.  3 partial 386 boxes (2 with keyboards) $5 each or $10 for all three (or free with purchase of any of the complete boxes/systems above)

6.  Intel 486dx2 66mhz CPU in mainboard (no battery) with 8mb RAM in desktop case- $5 (or free with purchase of any of the complete boxes/systems above)

7. 230Watt speakers (no power supply) $5

Ari
ari at scientist.com

______________________________________________
FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup



From shane at digiturbo.com.au  Fri Sep 29 21:57:14 2000
From: shane at digiturbo.com.au (Shane Spina)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:57:14 +0800
Subject: [plug] FS: Last two 486 systems for Linux play-with 16mb RAM
References: <383524110.970229254994.JavaMail.root@web302-mc.mail.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c02a1d$2e20e5e0$d2a3a8c0@bizzpro.com.au>

do they have onboard controllers if so i'll take both
----- Original Message -----
From: Ari Finander <ari at scientist.com>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 8:07 PM
Subject: [plug] FS: Last two 486 systems for Linux play-with 16mb RAM


> I only have two 486 systems left:
>
> 1. Intel 486dx2 66mhz CPU, 16mb RAM, 525mb HDD (no errors), keyboard, TP
network card, VGA card, 14" colour monitor, 3.5" FDD- $75
>
> 2. Intel 486dx2 66mhz CPU, 16mb RAM, 261.3mb HDD (no errors), keyboard, TP
network card, VGA card, 14" colour monitor 3.5" FDD- $75
>
> Also:
>
> 1.  AMD 486dx2 50mhz CPU, 8mb RAM, 261.3mb HDD (no errors), TP network
card, VGA card, 3.5" FDD- $40
>
> 2.  72 Pin RAM in 4mb cards: $5 each
>
> 3.  Logitech WingMan Lite joystick in box $20
>
> 4.  Gravids Blackhawk joystick in box $20
>
> 5.  3 partial 386 boxes (2 with keyboards) $5 each or $10 for all three
(or free with purchase of any of the complete boxes/systems above)
>
> 6.  Intel 486dx2 66mhz CPU in mainboard (no battery) with 8mb RAM in
desktop case- $5 (or free with purchase of any of the complete boxes/systems
above)
>
> 7. 230Watt speakers (no power supply) $5
>
> Ari
> ari at scientist.com
>
> ______________________________________________
> FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
> Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
>
>
>



From lenbird at iinet.net.au  Sat Sep 30 11:16:40 2000
From: lenbird at iinet.net.au (Len Bird)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:16:40 -0400
Subject: [plug] RedHat 6.2 Printer problem.
Message-ID: <39D55B18.D0337FD7@iinet.net.au>

I have RH 6.2 running on this machine,  which seems to be working for
the most part,
but  will not print  out. I know about the "printtool" utility, but if I
try to run a test page
an error message tells me that the print daemon will not start.

Any suggestions gratefully accepted.    Sorry to have introduced a
relevant Linux problem,
into this debating circle, more so to be pedantic enough to point out
that an acronym is a
contraction which can be, or lends itself to being pronounced e.g. p l u
g !  A meaningless
string of letters is simply that, or at best a contraction.

Cheers everyone,

Len Bird




From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Fri Sep 29 23:43:27 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:43:27 +0800
Subject: [plug] RedHat 6.2 Printer problem.
References: <39D55B18.D0337FD7@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00df01c02a2c$0308a640$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

What sorta printer you running Len?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Len Bird" <lenbird at iinet.net.au>
To: <plug at plug.org.au>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 11:16 AM
Subject: [plug] RedHat 6.2 Printer problem.


> I have RH 6.2 running on this machine,  which seems to be working for
> the most part,
> but  will not print  out. I know about the "printtool" utility, but if I
> try to run a test page
> an error message tells me that the print daemon will not start.
> 
> Any suggestions gratefully accepted.    Sorry to have introduced a
> relevant Linux problem,
> into this debating circle, more so to be pedantic enough to point out
> that an acronym is a
> contraction which can be, or lends itself to being pronounced e.g. p l u
> g !  A meaningless
> string of letters is simply that, or at best a contraction.
> 
> Cheers everyone,
> 
> Len Bird
> 
> 
> 
> 



From lenbird at iinet.net.au  Sat Sep 30 11:48:57 2000
From: lenbird at iinet.net.au (Len Bird)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:48:57 -0400
Subject: [plug] RedHat 6.2 Printer problem.
References: <39D55B18.D0337FD7@iinet.net.au> <00df01c02a2c$0308a640$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D562A9.26F127F1@iinet.net.au>

Kai wrote:

> What sorta printer you running Len?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Len Bird" <lenbird at iinet.net.au>
> To: <plug at plug.org.au>
> Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 11:16 AM
> Subject: [plug] RedHat 6.2 Printer problem.
>
> > I have RH 6.2 running on this machine,  which seems to be working for
> > the most part,
> > but  will not print  out. I know about the "printtool" utility, but if I
> > try to run a test page
> > an error message tells me that the print daemon will not start.
> >
> > Any suggestions gratefully accepted.    Sorry to have introduced a
> > relevant Linux problem,
> > into this debating circle, more so to be pedantic enough to point out
> > that an acronym is a
> > contraction which can be, or lends itself to being pronounced e.g. p l u
> > g !  A meaningless
> > string of letters is simply that, or at best a contraction.
> >
> > Cheers everyone,
> >
> > Len Bird
> >
> >
> >On LPT1 I have an Epson Stylus 600 and on LPT2 I have an Epson LQ1500
> emulation.
> >



From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Sat Sep 30 00:22:40 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:22:40 +0800
Subject: [plug] RedHat 6.2 Printer problem.
References: <39D55B18.D0337FD7@iinet.net.au> <00df01c02a2c$0308a640$0200a8c0@wn.com.au> <39D562A9.26F127F1@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00e701c02a31$7d5720c0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

OK..was hoping it'd be a Canon BJC-210.
I've got 2.0.36 on my server and the driver that comes with it (no
recompiled kernel) works fine....sorry I can't be of any help.

> > >On LPT1 I have an Epson Stylus 600 and on LPT2 I have an Epson LQ1500
> > emulation.



From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Sat Sep 30 00:19:16 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:19:16 +0800
Subject: [plug] RedHat 6.2 Printer problem.
In-Reply-To: <39D55B18.D0337FD7@iinet.net.au>; from lenbird@iinet.net.au on Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 11:16:40PM -0400
References: <39D55B18.D0337FD7@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000930001916.L10790@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

G'day Len,

On Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 11:16:40PM -0400, Len Bird wrote:
> I have RH 6.2 running on this machine,  which seems to be working for
> the most part,
> but  will not print  out. I know about the "printtool" utility, but if I
> try to run a test page
> an error message tells me that the print daemon will not start.


Try to narrow down the problem:

	- is "lpd" actually running, try:
		$ ps axuwww | grep lpd | grep -v grep

	- if it's not running, then try to start it with:
		$ /etc/rc.d/init.d/lpd start
	  (and check /var/log/messages for any error messages)

	- if it is running, try looking at the printer status:

		$ cat /var/spool/lpd/<printername>/status
		(<printername> is probably lp unless you set it up as
		something different).

Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From billk at iinet.net.au  Sat Sep 30 08:08:23 2000
From: billk at iinet.net.au (BillK)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:08:23 +0800
Subject: [plug] RedHat 6.2 Printer problem.
References: <39D55B18.D0337FD7@iinet.net.au> <00df01c02a2c$0308a640$0200a8c0@wn.com.au> <39D562A9.26F127F1@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <39D52EF7.A7A7D1C5@iinet.net.au>

Check out "lpc" - allows printer control including starting deamons,
status etc
also check the permissions on the files the the spool - on one
distro/version printool was setting the file permissions wrongly which
upset everything, giving seemingly unrelated symptoms.

BillK


From christian at amnet.net.au  Sat Sep 30 10:11:11 2000
From: christian at amnet.net.au (Christian)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:11:11 +0800
Subject: Gratuitous acrimonious bickering - was Re: [plug] Acronyms and obscurity
In-Reply-To: <39D465D0.6DDA2CB5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>; from bret@clearsol.iinet.net.au on Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 05:50:08PM +0800
References: <20000929123451.S24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D41C98.97F5E363@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <20000929123908.U24903@eagle.amnet.net.au> <39D420D2.D4485236@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <5.0.0.25.0.20000929141600.04a3e070@amber.com.au> <39D43D84.5A647C35@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39D45D8C.A490ECC@iinet.net.au> <39D45F91.273C5DED@clearsol.iinet.net.au> <39D462BB.7DD63D7B@iinet.net.au> <39D465D0.6DDA2CB5@clearsol.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000930101111.A24719@eagle.amnet.net.au>

On Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 05:50:08PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> > > Hard luck for anyone with a genuine interest in Linux, that comes to the
> > > mailing list for help.

Yeah.  One look at you and they'll be gone.

> I would think that anyone who is not primarily interested in the
> mindless bickering, would be inclined to stay away from it, apart from
> the victim, who has been trying to end the bickering..

The victim?  That's you, of course, isn't it?  It seems all you ever do
is try to end bickering...  Please.

> If you think that this is all a matter of "lets attack Bret, all those
> against him on this side of the line, and all those against him on that
> side of the line", and, your obvious attempt at point scoring, that is
> unfortunate.

Point scoring?  Lines?  You think this is some organised campaign
against you?  It isn't.  But one thing I have noticed, wherever I go, is
that people who know you just cannot stand you and, while this is not a
popularity contest, it is something that unites people against you.  But
trust me, it's not organised -- your actions galvanize the action
against you entirely by themselves.

> This mailing list was once related to Linux, and to helping people with
> Linux queries.

Yeah.  Then you turned up.

This current thread is a case in point.  I suggested you not use an
old version of Netscape due to a security problem and gave my own
experiences on how to get it working well.  It was you who took us down
the track that was unrelated to Linux instead of taking the time to look
the acronym up yourself.  Of course, in your mind, this is all some
organised campaign against you and you're the innocent victim.  Sure.

> It is unfortunate that it has lost its way, to be taken over by people
> more interested in hostile campaigns.

Absolutely.  As above.

> Hopefully, matters relating to Linux, will, sometime, again be present
> on the list, without the mindless bickering.

Yeah.  Maybe you'll unsubscribe.


From myk at golden.wattle.id.au  Sat Sep 30 11:19:00 2000
From: myk at golden.wattle.id.au (Mike Holland)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:19:00 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Re: Gratuitous acrimonious bickering
In-Reply-To: <20000930101111.A24719@eagle.amnet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009301116010.12889-100000@donau.golden.wattle.id.au>

This is getting too much folks. If Busby bothers you (god knows why :)
just killfile him.
  I am afraid my own .procmail needs a new entry now (Christian!):

  :0
  * ^In-Reply-To:.*clearsol.iinet.net.au
  /dev/null

I hope this gets better.

-- 
Mike Holland  <mike at golden.wattle.id.au>
                          --==--



From drc1 at iprimus.com.au  Sat Sep 30 12:44:23 2000
From: drc1 at iprimus.com.au (Darcy Nicolson)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:44:23 +0800
Subject: [plug] Can you hear a sound like the breaking of waves?
References: <39D466A2.270CF426@brooks.smileys.net> <39D46C33.BDFAC8AC@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <00f201c02a99$1e23cf00$977386cb@fatboy>

Yes. After trying to install win95 for the umpteenth time on a K6 it would
not recognise i have stopped intalling redhat on a small partition and gone
the whole hog.

A couple of questions - Can wine handle all win32 apps?
                                  -When is the next installfest?

Darcy Nicolson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Oliver White" <ojw at iinet.net.au>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: [plug] Can you hear a sound like the breaking of waves?


> Leon Brooks wrote:
>
> > Lots of things like this, and the overwhelming response to our
InstallFest, lead
> > me to believe that Linux has hit critical mass, and at the same time
Microsoft's
> > bubble is bursting.
> >
> > Have you had similar experiences?
>




From jason at mindsocket.com.au  Sat Sep 30 13:05:11 2000
From: jason at mindsocket.com.au (Jason Nicholls)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:05:11 +0800
Subject: [plug] Can you hear a sound like the breaking of waves?
In-Reply-To: <00f201c02a99$1e23cf00$977386cb@fatboy>; from drc1@iprimus.com.au on Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 12:44:23PM +0800
References: <39D466A2.270CF426@brooks.smileys.net> <39D46C33.BDFAC8AC@iinet.net.au> <00f201c02a99$1e23cf00$977386cb@fatboy>
Message-ID: <20000930130511.M10790@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>

G'day,

On Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 12:44:23PM +0800, Darcy Nicolson wrote:
> Yes. After trying to install win95 for the umpteenth time on a K6 it would
> not recognise i have stopped intalling redhat on a small partition and gone
> the whole hog.
> 
> A couple of questions - Can wine handle all win32 apps?

Nope, but there is a comprehensive list of apps and their status of running
under wine on the wine homepage. Since I can't remember the address, try
	http://www.freshmeat.net/
and search for "wine".



Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From subb3 at attglobal.net  Sat Sep 30 13:41:01 2000
From: subb3 at attglobal.net (Subba Rao)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 05:41:01 +0000
Subject: [plug] Limits of grep?
In-Reply-To: <39D0A3FD.13D61C0A@iinet.net.au>; from billc@iinet.net.au on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 09:26:21PM +0800
References: <20000926063825.A5461@attglobal.net> <39D0A3FD.13D61C0A@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000930054101.O24594@attglobal.net>

On  0, Bill Cullen <billc at iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Subba Rao wrote:
> > I have a directory of 10000+ text files and would like to search for
> > some strings in these files. When I tried using "grep" command with an
> > asterisk, I get the error message somthing to the effect,
> > 
> >         "File argument list too long"
> > 
> > What is the file argument limit for grep? I guess you need the grep source
> > for this. I did not find any information in the man page.
> > 
> > Are there any other recommended tools to search through such large list of
> > files?
> 
> This isn't a grep error, it's actually a shell error message.
> You can get the same error by cd'ing to the directory and then
> typing
> 
>     ls *
> 
> It's very important to understand that (unlike M$-DOS) the shell
> exands wildcards and variables and then passes the expanded list
> on to the program. For example, if I have a directory with the
> files fred1 and fred2 and then I enter the command
> 
>     ls fred*
> 
> the ls program will actually receive two command line parameters:
> fred1 and fred2. Similarly, if I have an environment variable
> VAR1=fred and then do the command
> 
>     wc $VAR1
> 
> then the wc program will actually get passed the command line
> parameter fred rather than $VAR1. 
> 
> There are several ways to get around the argument too long error:
> 
>   1. use the for statement as someone has suggested
>   2. use the find statement as someone else has suggested
>   3. try to break the list of files up a bit (ie a*)
>   4. use the xargs command (which I think might be the best 
>      solution in this case). ie. to list the names of all the
>      files with the string "I'm a teapot"
>    
>          ls | xargs grep -l "I'm a teapot"
> 
> I'd take a look in my "UNIX Power Tools" book and be more specific
> but unfortunately it's at work.
>  
> Good Luck,
> 
> Bill Cullen
> 

Thanks Bill, for replying. I tried the following solution and t works very fast.

find <path> -print | xargs -n 500 grep <pattern>

Thanks to everyone who replied with some solution!

-- 

Subba Rao
subb3 at attglobal.net
http://pws.prserv.net/truemax/


From jas at whatever.iinet.net.au  Sat Sep 30 18:04:34 2000
From: jas at whatever.iinet.net.au (Jason :))
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 18:04:34 +0800
Subject: [plug] debian install from floppy disks?
Message-ID: <COEHJKDMHELHODMMOHMGKEDICAAA.jas@whatever.iinet.net.au>

Hi

I've downloaded the basic floppy disk images for Debian (potato), and being
a first time user of debian, i was wondering if anyone could tell me before
i start installing:
1. does it have tools for making a modem connection to the internet?
2. any other hints (i've heard the install can be tricky)

Thanks

------------
Jason :)
jason at whatever.iinet.net.au
http://whatever.iinet.net.au



From jlmiller at mmtnetworks.com.au  Sat Sep 30 18:10:35 2000
From: jlmiller at mmtnetworks.com.au (Jon  Miller)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 18:10:35 +0800
Subject: [plug] Can you hear a sound like the breaking of waves?
Message-ID: <s9d62cab.087@gateway.mmtnetworks.com.au>

If you are trying to install a K6 2 chip faster than 350MHz, you'll need a special patch to handle the speed that W95 cannot address (if you are getting an error in the vicinity of "IOS......" then this is the reason.  the only way around this is:
1) upgrade to W98
2) get the patch and pray it works.

I've had to upgrade my clients to W98 to fix the problem and MS isn't about to fix it.

Jon

Jon L. Miller, MCNE ASE
Director/Sr Systems Consultant
MMT Networks Pty Ltd
PH: +61 8 9242 8600
FX: +61 8 9242 8611

>>> jason at mindsocket.com.au 1:05:11 pm 30/09/2000 >>>
G'day,

On Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 12:44:23PM +0800, Darcy Nicolson wrote:
> Yes. After trying to install win95 for the umpteenth time on a K6 it would
> not recognise i have stopped intalling redhat on a small partition and gone
> the whole hog.
> 
> A couple of questions - Can wine handle all win32 apps?

Nope, but there is a comprehensive list of apps and their status of running
under wine on the wine homepage. Since I can't remember the address, try
	http://www.freshmeat.net/ 
and search for "wine".



Later,

Jason Nicholls
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Nicholls    icq: 11745841    email: <jason at mindsocket.com.au>
Proprietor                        mobile: 0417 410 811
Mind Socket [web services]          http://www.mindsocket.com.au/ 
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From james at rcpt.to  Sat Sep 30 18:47:14 2000
From: james at rcpt.to (James Bromberger)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 18:47:14 +0800
Subject: [plug] debian install from floppy disks?
In-Reply-To: <COEHJKDMHELHODMMOHMGKEDICAAA.jas@whatever.iinet.net.au>; from jas@whatever.iinet.net.au on Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 06:04:34PM +0800
References: <COEHJKDMHELHODMMOHMGKEDICAAA.jas@whatever.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20000930184714.D7723@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>

On Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 06:04:34PM +0800, Jason :) wrote:
> I've downloaded the basic floppy disk images for Debian (potato), and being
> a first time user of debian, i was wondering if anyone could tell me before
> i start installing:
> 1. does it have tools for making a modem connection to the internet?
> 2. any other hints (i've heard the install can be tricky)

If you get all of the images (base, root, rescue/boot) which I think 
as I said last week totals around 11 disks or so (less if you have 
base2_2.tgz available via network/CD, etc) then you should end up with 
a fully functioning system including PPP for dialing up to your ISP.

As for tips:

Plan your disk layout. If your disk is larger than 1 GB, you will need 
to partition a small amount for booting, and the rest of the 
root filesystem. This can be  alittle tricky, but (and I may be telling 
you something you already know) use the cfdisk program that it launches for 
you to set up:
	hda1  40 MB ext2 Linux
	hda2  120 MB Linux swap
	hda3  whatever MB

And then mount hda1 as /boot and hda3 as /.

40 MB should be enough for all your kernels and boot blocks to live on. 
This is an old bug in Lilo, which I think may have been fixed by now, 
but I don't think it was in potato... *shrug*

Of course, the "whatever MB" can be again divided up further 
if this is to be a production system into the various sensible divisions 
covered in various FAQs (/var, /var/spool, /home), but that is a whole 
kettle of fish...

If you are already running Windows on the system, write down the 
model numbers of soundcards, SCSI cards, ethernet, video card etc as 
well as IRQ, DMA, and anything else you may need to 
configure things. It saves time in the long run. 

Know which serial port your modem is plugged into. If it is in COM1 
under Windows, then thats /dev/ttyS0 under linux. COM2 = /dev/ttyS1.

HTH.
  James

-- 
 James Bromberger <james_AT_bromberger.com> www.rcpt.to/~james
   IT, Pelican Manufacturing - www.pelicanmanufacturing.com.au
   Snr Web Systems Admin, JDV - www.jdv.com  *  www.hartleypoynton.com.au

 Remainder moved to http://www.rcpt.to/~james/james/sig.html


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Sat Sep 30 19:35:59 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 19:35:59 +0800
Subject: [plug] Can you hear a sound like the breaking of waves?
References: <s9d62cab.087@gateway.mmtnetworks.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D5D01F.307EE816@brooks.smileys.net>

Jon Miller wrote:
> the only way around this is:
> 1) upgrade to W98
> 2) get the patch and pray it works.

3) forsake Windows.

-- 
Is a mirage real?  Well, it's a real mirage.  -- Edward Abbey


From leon at brooks.smileys.net  Sat Sep 30 19:37:13 2000
From: leon at brooks.smileys.net (Leon Brooks)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 19:37:13 +0800
Subject: [plug] WINE (was: breaking of waves)
References: <39D466A2.270CF426@brooks.smileys.net> <39D46C33.BDFAC8AC@iinet.net.au> <00f201c02a99$1e23cf00$977386cb@fatboy> <20000930130511.M10790@nikita.mindsocket.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D5D069.8B736137@brooks.smileys.net>

Jason Nicholls wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 12:44:23PM +0800, Darcy Nicolson wrote:
>> A couple of questions - Can wine handle all win32 apps?
> 
> Nope, but there is a comprehensive list of apps and their status of running
> under wine on the wine homepage. Since I can't remember the address, try
>         http://www.freshmeat.net/
> and search for "wine".

http://www.winehq.com/

The list is not always up to date. Try each package you need on a very recent
WINE and see.

-- 
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. -- Albert Einstein


From pear at iinet.net.au  Sat Sep 30 20:10:45 2000
From: pear at iinet.net.au (Scott Campbell)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:10:45 +0800
Subject: [plug] 
Message-ID: <002c01c02ad7$79c80220$7f4f8ec6@sherbie>

G'Day,

firstly i want to say what a huge success the inatallfest was!!! I went
there with no clue about linux, and left with half a clue :)

but, one thing i did not quite understand, on alot of documentation and
sorts, its said edit this file and enter this into it, and delete that line
and so on ....

but how do you actually edit the file, what is the name of a text editior?
and some basic commands?

I have tried a bit, but all i have learnt is that pico is not installed :((

I am running debian ...

Thanks ...

Scott C



From vk6ksj at siwa.com.au  Sat Sep 30 21:14:24 2000
From: vk6ksj at siwa.com.au (Kai)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:14:24 +0800
Subject: [plug] 
References: <002c01c02ad7$79c80220$7f4f8ec6@sherbie>
Message-ID: <004501c02ae0$5acb7ce0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>

Hi Scott,
So far I have only used Red Hat and Caldera, but the text editors called vi
and emacs were on both.
All you have to do to use them is log in with your account and if you wanted
to edit a file called hello, and hello was in the same directory as you,
type:
vi hello
or
emacs hello

There are some other text editors out there but I have only used those two.
If you need hellp with vi or emacs type
man vi
or
man emacs
at the prompt

I hope this is of some help to you !

Kai

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Campbell" <pear at iinet.net.au>
To: <plug at plug.linux.org.au>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 8:10 PM
Subject: [plug]


> G'Day,
>
> firstly i want to say what a huge success the inatallfest was!!! I went
> there with no clue about linux, and left with half a clue :)
>
> but, one thing i did not quite understand, on alot of documentation and
> sorts, its said edit this file and enter this into it, and delete that
line
> and so on ....
>
> but how do you actually edit the file, what is the name of a text editior?
> and some basic commands?
>
> I have tried a bit, but all i have learnt is that pico is not installed
:((
>
> I am running debian ...
>
> Thanks ...
>
> Scott C
>
>
>



From adrian_blockley at dingoblue.net.au  Sat Sep 30 20:55:00 2000
From: adrian_blockley at dingoblue.net.au (adrian_blockley at dingoblue.net.au)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:55:00 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [plug] 
In-Reply-To: <002c01c02ad7$79c80220$7f4f8ec6@sherbie>
Message-ID: <20000930125500.10626.qmail@agepc.dingoblue.net.au>


G'day Scott,

Pico is the editor that comes with the mail reader pine. If you don't
have Pine installed then you won't have Pico.  Two common editors that
seem to come with most flavors of Unix are vi and Emacs.  For quick
editing jobs I still use vi but it has a fairly obscure syntax and can
be difficult to use for the beginner.  Once you do get used to it
though some people get quite addicted to it.  Emacs is very large and
can do some amazing things - I find it a little cumbersome for quick
edits but great for programming.

If you've got X up and running then my favorite is nedit which is
easy to use and has some great features.  I would be surprised if there
was not a nedit package for Debian.

If you are not running X then vi and emacs will most likely be on your
system.  As for syntax... once your in emacs you can get a tutorial by
entering C-h t (control-h t).

Good luck.

Adrian 


On 30 Sep, Scott Campbell wrote:
> G'Day,
> 
> firstly i want to say what a huge success the inatallfest was!!! I went
> there with no clue about linux, and left with half a clue :)
> 
> but, one thing i did not quite understand, on alot of documentation and
> sorts, its said edit this file and enter this into it, and delete that line
> and so on ....
> 
> but how do you actually edit the file, what is the name of a text editior?
> and some basic commands?
> 
> I have tried a bit, but all i have learnt is that pico is not installed :((
> 
> I am running debian ...
> 
> Thanks ...
> 
> Scott C
> 

-- 
--------------------------------------------------
Adrian  Blockley	 
adrian_blockley at dingoblue.net.au
Ph 03 9571 4823 



From ojw at iinet.net.au  Sat Sep 30 21:03:09 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:03:09 +0000
Subject: [plug]
References: <002c01c02ad7$79c80220$7f4f8ec6@sherbie> <004501c02ae0$5acb7ce0$0200a8c0@wn.com.au>
Message-ID: <39D5E48D.9E42AFFF@iinet.net.au>

Kai wrote:

> Hi Scott,
> So far I have only used Red Hat and Caldera, but the text editors called vi
> and emacs were on both.

vi and Emacs are both worth learning. It tends to take a while to get used to
them though. While you're working on that, try Joe or Jed. They're both very
simple.

--
Oliver White



From dagobah at mad.scientist.com  Sat Sep 30 22:09:36 2000
From: dagobah at mad.scientist.com (Bernard Blackham)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:09:36 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] text editors.. pico
In-Reply-To: <002c01c02ad7$79c80220$7f4f8ec6@sherbie>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009302147110.9776-100000@bernard>

On Sat, 30 Sep 2000, Scott Campbell wrote:

> firstly i want to say what a huge success the inatallfest was!!! I went
> there with no clue about linux, and left with half a clue :)

Mission accomplished :)


> but, one thing i did not quite understand, on alot of documentation and
> sorts, its said edit this file and enter this into it, and delete that line
> and so on ....
> 
> but how do you actually edit the file, what is the name of a text editior?
> and some basic commands?

The most common text editor on Linux & UNIX clones machines (that i've
seen) is either emacs or vi/vim, both of which are horribly hard to use
for newbies... powerful yes, but quite irritating for simple tasks.
They're probably already installed though.

Can anybody else comment here... How is nano/pico for long lines? I know
they like to wrap them at around 70 or 80, but if it's not the intended
result, what do you do?

For serious text editing (oxymoronic?), I use vim (Vi IMproved). Learn the
basic commands and you should be fine. There's a lot of stuff it can do,
macros, etc., but learn the basics first (type :h).

> I have tried a bit, but all i have learnt is that pico is not installed :((
> I am running debian ...

Pico usually comes with the mail client PINE, but Debian (2.2) also comes
with a program called Nano - a clone of pico with a few more features.  
To install it you can type "apt-get install nano" and you'll probably be
asked for the CD's. 

If you find any software that isnt installed then in most cases you can
just type "apt-cache search whatever", and it'll give you a list of
matching packages. Then to install one, type "apt-get install
packagename".

There's an far more friendly program called aptitude, which is a front-end
for the apt-cache/apt-get/apt-blah tools. There's a few key combo's you'll
need to know, have a look at /usr/doc/aptitude/README when it's installed.

Enjoy :)

Bernard.

-- 
 Bernard Blackham
 dagobah at mad.scientist.com




From ojw at iinet.net.au  Sat Sep 30 23:23:51 2000
From: ojw at iinet.net.au (Oliver White)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:23:51 +0000
Subject: [plug] Compromised
Message-ID: <39D60587.7B26A3C2@iinet.net.au>

Hi folks... I hope some of you are up late. I have a feeling some script
kiddy has root on my box.

Can anyone suggest what action I should take right now?



From skribe at amber.com.au  Sat Sep 30 23:28:41 2000
From: skribe at amber.com.au (skribe)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:28:41 +0800
Subject: [plug] Compromised
In-Reply-To: <39D60587.7B26A3C2@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20000930232556.0393a640@amber.com.au>

At 23:23 30/09/00, Oliver White wrote:
>Can anyone suggest what action I should take right now?

Shutdown.  Reinstall from weekly/monthly backups.

Only way to be sure.

skribe
         Purity:                           62.0%
         Corruption:                    38.0%
         Insanity:                        36.3636363636364%
         Weirdness factor:           31%
         Experience Level:           JonKatz Wannabe
         Medieval Career:            Black Knight



From dagobah at mad.scientist.com  Sat Sep 30 23:50:21 2000
From: dagobah at mad.scientist.com (Bernard Blackham)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:50:21 +0800 (WST)
Subject: [plug] Compromised
In-Reply-To: <39D60587.7B26A3C2@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009302330540.15081-100000@bernard>

Hmmm, pull the network card on it? or the modem? if that's plausable.
How's you're firewall?
Change root password. If they're logged in as a shell, type w to see who
exactly is logged on. It should give you something like (this is from
mine):

USER     TTY      FROM              LOGIN@   IDLE   JCPU   PCPU  WHAT
root     tty1     -                12:26pm 11:08m  0.06s  0.06s  bash           
bernard  tty2     -                12:27pm 11:07m  7:26   0.04s  bash           
bernard  pts/0    :0.0             11:30pm 10.00s  0.17s  0.17s  pine 
bernard  pts/1    :0.0              9:49pm 49:52   0.07s   ?     -
bernard  pts/2    :0.0             10:50pm  0.00s  0.09s  0.03s  w 
bernard  pts/3    :0.0             11:15pm 25:38   0.07s  0.01s  vi invite

If there's anybody there that shouldnt be, find & kill them, for
example if it was the last one on that list, type
  ps ax | grep pts/3

to give:
14880 pts/3    S      0:00 -bash
14907 pts/3    S      0:00 vi invite

and then type kill 14880 and kill 14907 and anything. This is how I would
do it from what I know (which isnt much). There are probably better and
quicker ways. If it's a login shell they've gained then it'll stop them.
Make sure you've changed the root password, and perhaps any others. Your
firewall should really have the telnet port blocked, and most of
everything. Supposedly you can run a server with the only port open being
ssh (Secure Shell) if you really need it.

As to see what they've done, perhaps browse through the .bash_history file
in /root/ if it's there. Anything more advanced is out of my league,
unless you have tripwire or something similar installed.

Hope this helps,

Bernard.

 -- 
 Bernard Blackham
 dagobah at mad.scientist.com

On Sat, 30 Sep 2000, Oliver White wrote:

> Hi folks... I hope some of you are up late. I have a feeling some script
> kiddy has root on my box.
> 
> Can anyone suggest what action I should take right now?
> 
> 
>