[plug] newbie list, show of hands

[The Thought Assassin]

On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, Scott wrote:
> From: "The Thought Assassin" <assassin at live.wasp.net.au>
> Jeez people have been saying for a while they don't want to write to
> this list
Wish I were privy to all these off-list discussions you quote, but I'd
rather the people voiced these opinions online where we can discuss them
and take action if need be. Nothing will be changed by people sitting in
the corner complaining about things.

> because of people who will point out your spelling mistakes,
Yep, there have been a couple of those, but I think we are usually more
mature and on-topic than that. Spelling flames always make the flamer look
worse than the flamee, but some people take a while to realise it.

> or people who usually only write when they have something bad to say,
Is that me? I often criticise technologies and philosophies I object to,
but only because I feel that the forum is likely to be interested in
hearing alternative opinions, or the theoretical side of computing.
I don't think I ever criticies people, and very few on this list do.
(Then, of course, when they do criticise, they choose to criticise people
like Christian who have probably done about the least of anyone here to
deserve criticism.)

> or because most of what we write is crap,
Guilty as charged. Why would a second list change this?

> or a few other reasons.
I can't imagine how any of these things can be better on a second list
that is directly aimed at the less knowledgeable users with less
experience of how to behave in an online forum, and for all I know, worse
spelling. :)

I can see that there might be some small benefits to the signal/noise
ratio on the main list, but only if there were some way of keeping said
noise distracted by the decoy list instead of continually cross-posting.
I am sure we are all completely against any form of direct discrimination
as to who should be on the "elite" list and who shouldn't. The solution is
to maintain and demand high standards of self-help and list ettiquette on
this list, and let those who do wish to reduce the worth of the list for
others will choose to leave of their own accord when they see that the
list is not for them. It's not very nice, and possibly undemocratic, but
the Linux egalitarian ethic is one of "everyone is equally free to speak"
rather than "everone must be listened to". Remember that.


> Everyone i meet (in RL) who is on this list i ask them what they think
> of the people on the list, they usually say people like Leon and Matt
> are really good and helpful,
Those two are certainly worth their weight in tech support contracts. :)

> but they usually don't bother reading anyone elses after the first few
> e-mails they recieve.
That surprises me. There have been only two or three people in the history
of this list who I know will have contributed nothing before even reading
their latest message, but they are so diabolical that I always read them
for amusement value anyway. (that's not including Bill Gruff, of course :)
Everyone else regularly contributes to the list in a useful fashion, even
if the thread in question is of no interest or use to you. There are also
people like Christian and David Campbell who invariably have something
interesting to say, express it well, and benefit us greatly with their
appreciable technical knowledge.

> They also say that plug can be helpful but you have to read through a
> lot of crap to get it.
Thems the breaks, but weren't you telling us earlier that these same
people get turned off the list when they see people trying to do something
about the amount of crap on the list?

> Fine fix this list to make the newbies happy but you will probably make the
> veterans unhappy.
Tell us what you think we should do to make the newbies happy - chances
are it can be implemented in a veteran-friendly way.

> I personally would like a list totally dedicated to tech support.
You wouldn't believe how many of those there are around. Don't start
another one. PLUG, on the other hand, is a community, we just happen to
give a lot of tech support because we all value the community and its
citizens.


> I don't see this as taking something away this list
I myself read PLUG mostly for the parts that aren't tech support, but that
stuff doesn't always generate itself. Taking away the technical questions
and answers would deprive us of a lot of starting points for conversation.

> but rather enhancing the whole thing afterall 2 are better than one.
Ask an economist about "Network effects". Until the noise starts to
overwhelm the signal, the interaction between the different segments is a
dynamic source of fuel for the conversation fires. What we do need to do
is continue thinking about ways to keep the noise down, in order that we
can maintain this synergy.

> P.S. Nah it wasn't harsh.
Well, I'll see if I can work up to a bit of harshness. :)

-Greg Mildenhall