[plug] [OT+link] Feeling secure? Want to stay that way? Then don't read this.

[Shayne O'Neill]

> As I said before, its war, so all bets are off. Id ignore the geneva
> convention too if it suited my purpose.

Ugh... What's the point of fighting a lawless world if thats what we aim to
create? I don't understand why fight a lawless enemy if we agree with his
ideals?


> Either way, Im happy.

So will I when I see GWB in the dock for war crimes.

> > Thus the US finds itself in this bind.
> > Either
> > (A) The US executive have breached international war crime laws by
> illegal
> > detention and torute (they have admitted this) of talisban soldiers by
> > denying the geneva convention.. The same stuff they got Pinochet on.
> > *OR* The international courts accept the talisban where all spies and
> > mercinaries , thus
> > (B) The millitary bombardment of afganistan was thus believed to be an
> > attack on civillians which just co-incidently happened to hit those
> spies,
> > thus opening the US executive to trial on Crimes against Humanity, stuff
> > they also got pinochet on....
> >
>
> War Crimes? Crimes against Humanity? Did the USA lose a war I didnt hear
> about?

No.... Leave the country without diplomatic immunity and get nabbed in
europe.
Not to mention that if the US has extradition agreements with belgium there
could
be *bad* mojo. Remember the whole concept of a third arm of government is
that
a president can cop the keneth star treatment whether he likes it or not. If
Bill C can
cop it for getting his pipe polished, GWB can get it for murder.

> Win a war you are a hero. Lose a war and youre a war criminal. Try to keep
> up.

Didn't help pinochet.

> > It's a bad bind, and more than a few legal experts have pointed out that
> > at some point in the future , the US millitary command may find
> themselves
> > in *deep* shit.
>
> I dont see how. They can make the rules up as they go along. Who is going
> to tell them otherwise?

It can make rules, but it's only 1/150th of the UN, and if the UN initiates
proceedings,
the US has to comply if it's law. The US may scoff, but it's little help
when a supreme
court judge orders his arrest.

> > Either way, I can not abide myself or others to take the lives of other
> > human beings for reasons other than morals. The attack on Affganistan
was
> > waranted. There was no doubt about that. International treatys DO allow
a
> > country to be attacked if a country aids and abbets terrorists.
>
> What is all this International Treaty stuff? As I said before, in war
> there are no rules. There is no guide book.

Um.. There is a history book. I suggest you read it.

> >*However*,
> > those rules of engagement on how to treat POW's have saved the lives of
> > countless US, and yes! Australian POWS since WWII. If the biggest kid on
> > the block has now decidedthat the geneva convention is over, expect Iraq
> > to kill any captured US & Aussie prisoner, which will inevitably happen
>
> Sure. It will happen. But again, it is war. Dont like it? Stay at home.

Oh for god sake. Stop saying that. It *DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING!*

Iraq is staying at home, yet it's still going to 'cop war' despite not doing
anything
wrong (or anything that can legally trigger grounds for a 'self defensive'
invasion under
UN security regs). But the US are still threatening to invade *DESPITE*
sadam complying
*and* germany and a couple of the others on the security council forbidding
the US to invade.

If the US does this, it's actually unprecedented.... GWB has amazed some
folk in the international legal
folk by being the first post WWII USpresident to actually put himself in a
position, repetatively where
he may end up spending much of his old age in prison. I kid you not. Things
*will* go wrong for this
guy if he doesn't pull his socks up.

> > in
> > an actiondesigned to take baghdad (City wars are a *lot* bloodier than
> > desert stuff). Remember in the Gulf war, Sadamm alowed the Red Cross
> > accessto his American Prisoners, and released them post war. Something
> the
> > US hasn't done with the Talisban conscripts it's detained in Cuba.
>
> Im sure they are feeding them tho.... probably more than Id do.
>
> OK, answer this, what do you
>
> a) believe they should do once they catch Osama?
> b) believe they will do once they catch Osama?

Kill the fucker. I'm not worried about terrorists, I'm worried about
soldiers.
If the US gives him a fair trial, he'll meet that firing squad. But
*nothing*
legally can justify extrajudicial executions which is what GWB has actually
decreed should happen to the talisban soldiers. Theres actually a term for
that in
law. It "Homicide"... And with the US's homicide laws GWB ***REALLY**
doesn't
wan't to fall foul of *that* law.

> for me
>
> a) shoot him dead
> b) shoot him dead

a+b. Read above.

> >
> > > Dont piss them off. Quite simple really.
> >
> > That's fine if your a terrorist. Sucks if your just a lowly conscript.
>
> Aha! Here we are! I was expecting the 'Im just a poor old grunt with a
> gun, I cant think for myself, please be kind to me' angle at some time. :D
>
> Everyone has choices.

Verry Satre of you. Problem was, the Talisban hardliners where rounding up
refuseniks
and executing them AND there familys. If you where in afghanistan and you
where told
"You are a conscript. Fight to defend your country, or we'll kill your wife
& kids".I can
*guarantee* you would do that.

So why do these people deserve this? They are victims too.

> >
> > > You can walk around trying to be subtle, being diplomatic, trying to
> talk
> > > it out. But sometimes the gloves come off, and I can tell you that the
> US
> > > has a better record at being a nasty peace of work than any other
> country
> > > in the world. When theyre nasty, theyre *nasty*.
> >
> > And this is good? We certainly don't find this a redeeming feature in
> > Osama. If nasty is good, I propose we are all doomed.
>
> Nasty aint good always, but when someone is nasty to you Id prefer to out-
> nasty them :D Otherwise you spend your life being a victim.

No. You establish solid international law and stick by it. No exceptions,
not even
for big countries. That way *everyone* is safe.

> >
> > > As long as I dont have to witness the horror of a man being tortured,
> and
> > > am allowed to continue in my own little peaceful world, I am forever
> > > indebted to these people.
> >
> > It would of been nice if it panned out that way. How sad our heros
became
> > the worst bloody offenders of the lot. *AND WITH FREAKING IMPUNITY!*
>
> Yes. Because they won. See above.

> >
> > > Do you reckon my grandfather, or several people I have known over the
> > > years, went to WW2/vietnam/korea to be nice guys? War is war. They
> went,
> > > killed a lot of people, suffered enormously, and those that are still
> > > breathing are still suffering (like my mate who wakes up screaming
> nearly
> > > every night post-vietnam). And theyd do it again. They did it so
people
> > > like ourselves can sit chatting aimlessly on a mail list about things
> we
> > > cant comprehend. They paid the price for our freedom.
> >
> > Vietnam was an immoral war that ruined the life of good young soldiers
to
> > appease the political will of a paranoic US administration. If you
> promise
> > a country independance in exchange for helping fight japs, don't change
> > your mind and invade them just because the french get indignate. That
> > however does not denigrate the fine legacy of the soldiers involved.
It's
> > the leaders that get my goat.
> >
> > > I take my hat off to all of them, and the current US action. If it
> means
> > > that my daughter can grow up without worrying about being the target
> of a
> > > terrorist attack, I back them fully.
> >
> > It won't. I'm sorry. WHen you kill a young lads father on a battle
field.
> > That young lad grows up hating you. Simple as that.
>
> Yes. I agree.
>
> You dont want to know my plan to fix that.
>
>
> >
> > > The absolute truth is that I would prefer that 100 terrorists were
> killed
> > > or tortured to my family suffering any harm whatsoever. I dont even
> mind
> > > if some of them are wrongly accused.
> >
> > Sure. I'm with you there. Doesn't justify human rights abuses
> > against non terrorists however. A mere few months pre S11 , a film whose
> > name eludes me speculated big terror attacks on the US, Habeus Corpus is
> > lifted and the US military start rounding up foreigners into camps and
> > torturing them.
>
> How is that relevant?
>
> >
> > Currently the US government has just began rounding up thousands of
> people
> > from Iran, Iraq and various middle eastern countries, on no charges
other
> > than visa iregularities.... No torure , although the news reports at the
> > moment indicate lawyers have lost contact with the people involved. This
> > is all in the last two weeks. There has been some pretty big riot-y
> > demonstrations in the US about this... Scary time to be an american.
> >
>
> oh! :D thats the connection.
>
> And once the US is happy that these people are regular little vegemites
> theyll let them go. No harm, no foul.

Oh man. You just don't get it. Why must the  means justify the end.
Seriously,
I actually think GWB needs to be overthrown. These wars don't need to
happen.
Destroying the life of thousands and thousands of innocents americans just
in case
one or two of them might be up to something defeats the purpose.

Currently the US government are more of a threat to it's own citizens, and
indeed
world peace than any other government. Remember whos actually starting all
these wars.

> >
> > > A man with bamboo under his fingernails is more likely to talk than if
> you
> > > simply say 'please'.
> >
> > And tell you what you want to hear... Er sure I know who did it *OUCH*
It
> > was , um, um, Habib... Yeah... Habib over the road. Can you stop now!
> perhaps we should both study modern torture techniques and the resulting
> accuracy before we take this one further - Im sure they dont use bamboo
> anymore :D

There is a reason why coersion isn't accepted in courtrooms==>aint reliable.

> > > > Of course, if they're prepared to down such basic and obvious
> freedoms
> > > in the
> > > > name of national security, are they going to blink at downing a
> freedom
> > > which
> > > > allows Linux to flourish? [you just read the on-topic 1%]
> >
> > Odd point. But it's the same thing. Basic freedoms can not be revoked.
> > Only violated.
> >
> > > woaah. Way off. Do you think Linux would flourish in a world run by
> > > terrorists? They are *protecting* your freedoms, including the freedom
> to
> > > develop linux.
> >
> > By passing things like the Patriot act that specifically revokes
freedoms
> > to 'protect against terrorism'. It's like something I read on Declan
> > McCullochs list. You have far more likelyhood of being violated by your
> > government than by terrorists because of these laws. *FAR* more people
> are
> > being detained without charge in the US than where killed in the S11
> > tragedy, not because they are suspects, but because they *might* have
> info
> > that is usefull.
>
> And who are these people? Random guys off the street? Id venture that
> perhaps most of the people being detained could possibly have some form of
> connection to certain groups. I could be wrong tho.
>
> Generally I think that if you havent done anything, and are a happy little
> camper, you have nothing to fear.

Read the reports. That's the problem. GWB has lost the plot. There just
doing sweeps
of suburbs and rounding up middle eastern guys. It's quite a scary thought.

> >
> > Wow. Osama actually won. The US government has decided to 'cancel' the
> > freedoms that made the US famous.
>
> How so?

Because if you buy the line that it was an 'attack on freedom' it had
presicely the desired effect.

> > > Personally I think the gonoeva convention is a crock. Its war. You
> want to
> > > be nice, stay at home. Unless youre willing to commit completely to
the
> > > horror that is war, you dont care enough about the topic at hand.
> >
> > And if you are nice and end up being tortured for no reason because you
> > went to the same church as a terrorist then you may actually wish the
> > Geneva convention WAS followed.
>
> I wouldnt attend a church in the first place :) especially one attended by
> terrorists.

Of course you probably wouldn't know. Most of the people who went to the
catholic
church with that nutbag terrorist who killed the security guard in an
attempt to blow up
an abortion clinic probably didn't realise he was a terrorist. (If this
happened in the US,
under laws proposed by GWB, everyone at that church could be locked up
indefinately[read
'disappeared'] without trial and without the govt having to even say if they
have got them. Just
for *knowing stuff about a terrorist*

> > > > a two-pronged system of government which gives it the appearance of
> > > > gentleness, but is really nasty at heart. Which kind of matches the
> USA.
> > > eh? Go have a lie down Leon :D
> >
> > Actually, I suggest it's an apt observation.
>
> Can I get in on whatever you guys are smoking? :D

Drum ultra mild myself :)

> >
> > > >We
> > > > have these laws under which everyone gets a fair deal and nobody
gets
> > > > tortured, aren't we great?' Land of the free, rah rah.
> > >
> > > Freedom has its limits. You want to fly planes into large buildings,
or
> > > bomb a night club full of drunk Aussies, then I think perhaps you have
> > > defaulted your rights to protection under the 'rules'. If youre nice
> and
> > > peaceful and good to your fellow man, then you have nothing to fear.
> >
> > Well dude, my family suffered a couple of losses in bali. I can tell you
> > these war-pigs do NOT speak for me. Sure the Terrorists can get what's
> > coming to them. That should not apply to simple soldiers and civillians.
> >
>
> again with the simple soldiers? wow
>
> "and to those people living in those countries, I say 'move! the bombs are
> coming!'"

Not when the borders are locked down and the people dropping the bombs aint
letting folk out.

> >
> > > > ...which is exactly where Palladium and the SSO projects like
> Passport
> > > are
> > > > headed...
> >
> > Bit nutty. But I supose
> >
> > > >     Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number
> of
> > > >     the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six
> > > >     hundred threescore and six.
> >
> > And at this point the conversation turns teapot. :)
> > <snip!>
>
> bwhahahah... my thoughts exactly :D
>
>
>
> > ...and returns to less teapot.
>
> good luck!
>
> >
> > > I find it interesting that someone (and Im not singling you out Leon,
> dont
> > > get me wrong) can sit in a nice home, in a nice city, in a nice
> country,
> > > playing on a nice computer, reading information on an unrestricted
> > > internet connection, with a full stomach, and with little to no fear
of
> > > harm, all of which has been afforded them by the sacrifices of the
> many,
> > > many people who have fought and died for these privileges, and come to
> the
> > > conclusion that the people who are making those sacrifices are evil.
> > >
> > > I think the young people in this country need a good dose of national
> > > service to wake them up - I dont want the next generation of leaders
to
> > > let the country become overrun with terrorists and extremists just to
> > > avoid offending someone..... :D
> >
> > I do not think self sacrifice is an ignoble thing simon.
> >
> > But I assure you, no government will return warmong^H^H^H^H^H national
> > service without the grave risk that young people will riot.
> >
> > Forget it. It's a DAMN good way to get pretty much every young dude in
> the
> > country breaking things and lighting fires in canbera if we return to
> > forcing people against there will to engage in acts of killing.
> >
> > Simon. There is an entire generation of young folk that think human
> > life is a precious thing, and thus will have no truck with war. Even in
> > the US population, the sentiment against war is overwhelmingly high.
> > Deal with it.
>
> Sure, I agree.
>
> But get behind me when Indonesia invade. Ill have forgotten what youve
> said by then. Ill try to keep them from slitting your throat while you
> moan that its all not fair :D

Mate, if Indonesia invade, I'll be on the front line. Although I doubt I'd
need to, I recon our
navy& airforce would do the job just fine.(read the defence dept blue book,
you'll feel alot
safer!) Hey I even can fire a gun, tho the asthma might get in the way.

Sure. Defend the country, just don't go all random and whack innocent folk,
and when the wars over, send em home, like we've done every bloody other
war.