[plug] Systemd, good or bad
Paul Dean
paul at thecave.ws
Mon Sep 22 07:15:04 UTC 2014
Hi All,
Well it seems that systemd is causing quite a stir, so much so that a "fork" has started, http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/09/21/1427240/fork-of-systemd-leads-to-lightweight-uselessd
It will be interesting to see the direction of things now.
--
Thanks
Paul Dean.
"Life is not WHAT you make it, it's WHO you have in it..."
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 13:00:35 +0800
"/sbin/Southen" <southen at gmail.com> wrote:
>It's far more embarrassing that systemd has introduced to Linux the "reboot
>to apply update" feature of Windows, because so many "essential" system
>services are bolted into PID 1 if any part of them needs to be upgraded the
>entire system needs to be rebooted. Previously restarting the relevant
>service was enough, the kernel and any other services could remain
>operating for years. Only if there was an actual serious kernel update was
>a reboot required and kexec/ksplice/et al were well on the way to solving
>that too.
>Apparently this is not a problem for the systemd developers, since their
>target has always been on-demand virtual machines in datacenters - not
>servers, desktops or laptops - so rapid start up times and constant reboots
>are expected.
>
>
>On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Hani Jabr <hani at nuix.net> wrote:
>
>> Boot times may not matter to most people who only use Linux desktops, but
>> when you have dozens or hundreds of servers boot times start to matter a
>> lot. Firmware upgrades, patches, app upgrades, system changes. You can
>> leave them up and running for years, but you don't. And that matters when
>> there's more than one.
>>
>> And let's face it, it's embarrassing for Linux when a sparc box takes five
>> times longer to POST and still boots up first...
>>
>> Hani
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 22 Sep 2014, at 11:12, Brad Campbell <brad at fnarfbargle.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I've heard a few people tout faster boot times as the main positive
>> thing about systemd. Personally the 3-4 times a year I actually boot a
>> linux machine makes me care a _lot_ less about boot times and a lot more
>> about being able to fix broken stuff with basic hand tools.
>> >
>> > What I do care about is the ability to bring up and repair a broken
>> machine without remote hands or worrying about the behavior of a dark bag
>> of vipers. I can fix and/or tailor init scripts on the fly. I don't
>> natively speak dbus.
>> >
>> > Hibernate/Suspend has worked well now for years. Even my laptop only
>> gets cold booted a couple of times a year. If I need to boot into Windows I
>> suspend Linux and pop the battery out. Boot Windows, and when I re-boot
>> back into linux it just un-hibernates to where I was before.
>> > I suspend2both so if the battery dies I can un-hibernate, otherwise just
>> wake it up with a keypress and I'm back in.
>> >
>> > I guess I'm just grumpy as I see it as yet another case of change for
>> change's sake. Reading Lennart's blog again it really reads like he thinks
>> linux will take OSX users by booting as fast as OSX, when in reality it's
>> the totalitarian stewardship of OSX and the "one true path" that keeps
>> users. They don't have to worry about dpkg vs rpm or Gnome vs anything else
>> usable these days. It just works for a majority of the population and linux
>> will never get there.
>> >
>> > When my mum phones up and asks a question about her Mac I can pretty
>> much talk her through from memory, but when she uses the Ubuntu laptop I
>> have set up for her to do her banking on I have to vnc in because shit
>> keeps moving from release to release and I don't use Ubuntu anymore (and I
>> can't see her coping with Debian and XMonad somehow).
>> >
>> > I see systemd as one of those black boxes that "just works", except that
>> when it doesn't you are looking for a black button illuminated by a black
>> light on a black control panel on a black wall in a black cave and it's
>> very likely you'll be eaten by the Grue before you find it.
>> >
>> > Don't mind me, I'm just getting old and cantankerous.
>> >
>> >> On 22/09/14 05:39, B15HOP wrote:
>> >> As much as I want to care about SystemD, I find that it's incredibly
>> >> fast with bootup times.
>> >>
>> >> Some people say that it's a turn for the worse, I think it's another
>> >> good option for another good cause. I think that Linux should always be
>> >> about modularity and user demand. If a person wants oranges instead of
>> >> apples, then so be it... Why do distro managers always try to make it
>> >> easier by just going down either A or B. It just cuts people out that
>> >> might already enjoy the distro. There are so many distros out there that
>> >> Linux has become obfuscated rather than a collaboration effort. Linus
>> >> then wonders why it hasn't won over the desktop, pretty easy to see
>> >> why... As much as I don't like SystemD, it grew on me once I got the
>> >> hang of it.
>> >>
>> >> A happy Arch user.
>> >>
>> >> Phillip.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:56 AM, Bill Kenworthy <billk at iinet.net.au
>> >> <mailto:billk at iinet.net.au>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Systemd caused one of the longest ever flamefests on the gentoo mail
>> >> lists! - end result is openrc is still the default init but we have
>> to
>> >> put up with odd bits of systemd and its servants scattered through
>> the
>> >> system :( Systemd had a (very) few supporters but its more that its
>> >> being forced on people against their better judgement.
>> >>
>> >> The reputation of the systemd devs is very poor due to pulseaudio so
>> >> that is a black mark against it being just "accepted" - the battle
>> lines
>> >> have already been drawn - it will be interesting to see if redhats
>> data
>> >> centre business suffers irreparable damage as the resistance from
>> server
>> >> admins is very high against it.
>> >>
>> >> Keep in mind that "YOU", the typical user are just collateral damage
>> -
>> >> the target of systemd is the cloud. Fast boot, use it and and then
>> >> throwaway the image when done is the target. Keeping an image
>> running
>> >> reliably for months is not a priority any longer (check out the use
>> of
>> >> "chaosmonkey" in the data centre). When people like gnome (another
>> >> bunch of losers :) jumped on board it has twisted the market towards
>> >> something that's just not appropriate for most individual users. I
>> dont
>> >> think I can hold out forever, but will do do so until its no longer
>> >> viable.
>> >>
>> >> Dont like where your distro is going - choose another or build your
>> own
>> >> - give up and follow the sheep, you are lost!
>> >>
>> >> From a happy lxde, moving to lxqt, eudev and openrc user :)
>> >> BillK
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 08/09/14 06:13, Hani Jabr wrote:
>> >> > It's not a couple of seconds, it's a few minutes when you have
>> >> multiple applications that take time to start up, but can start in
>> >> parallel. That is important on production systems.
>> >> >
>> >> > Systemd seems like a rubbish implementation of something that's
>> >> long overdue on Linux. Every unix except AIX has implemented
>> >> something similar.
>> >> >
>> >> > Hani
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> On 7 Sep 2014, at 23:49, Alexander <alex at spottedmouse.com
>> >> <mailto:alex at spottedmouse.com>> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Found some more details:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.tecmint.com/systemd-replaces-init-in-linux/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I think this article makes a good case against systemd. Why do
>> >> we need
>> >> >> all this extra complexity for a couple of seconds we save during
>> >> >> startup. Since when is the startup time a measure for anything.
>> >> Maybe I
>> >> >> am getting too old. Have fond memories of uptime being a measure
>> for
>> >> >> things. Reminds me a little of the time when a new version of
>> >> windows
>> >> >> was released, which had a faster startup time as a major
>> feature.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> On 03/09/14 14:56, Alexander wrote:
>> >> >>> Just ran across : http://boycottsystemd.org/ and thought fellow
>> >> pluggers
>> >> >>> may be interested as well.
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
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>> >
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>> >> >> Committee e-mail: committee at plug.org.au
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>> >> > PLUG discussion list: plug at plug.org.au <mailto:plug at plug.org.au>
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>> >> <mailto:committee at plug.org.au>
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>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> PLUG discussion list: plug at plug.org.au <mailto:plug at plug.org.au>
>> >> http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug
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>> committee at plug.org.au>
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> "The ecological crisis is a moral issue." PJP 2nd
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> PLUG discussion list: plug at plug.org.au
>> >> http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug
>> >> Committee e-mail: committee at plug.org.au
>> >> PLUG Membership: http://www.plug.org.au/membership
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > PLUG discussion list: plug at plug.org.au
>> > http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug
>> > Committee e-mail: committee at plug.org.au
>> > PLUG Membership: http://www.plug.org.au/membership
>> _______________________________________________
>> PLUG discussion list: plug at plug.org.au
>> http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug
>> Committee e-mail: committee at plug.org.au
>> PLUG Membership: http://www.plug.org.au/membership
>>
>
>
>
--
Thanks
Paul Dean.
"Life is not WHAT you make it, it's WHO you have in it..."
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