[plug] Systemd, good or bad
Brad Campbell
brad at fnarfbargle.com
Mon Sep 22 07:34:12 UTC 2014
This does not qualify as epic, but I have no qualms about rebooting it
if I have to, I just don't have to.
brad at bklaptop:~$ ssh xxxxxxxx.xxx uptime
08:01:25 up 1302 days, 9:28, 0 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
I'm from the same school. Reboots are for hardware upgrades or kernel
security vulnerabilities (and only if that vulnerability applies to
_that_ server). Firmware updates sometimes can't be avoided, but I can
count on one hand how many of them I've had to apply since 1996 that
could not wait until a scheduled maintenance window.
I get the on-demand virtual server thing, but I'd have thought that was
a bit of a niche. Perhaps I'm wrong.
On 22/09/14 13:00, /sbin/Southen wrote:
> It's far more embarrassing that systemd has introduced to Linux the
> "reboot to apply update" feature of Windows, because so many "essential"
> system services are bolted into PID 1 if any part of them needs to be
> upgraded the entire system needs to be rebooted. Previously restarting
> the relevant service was enough, the kernel and any other services could
> remain operating for years. Only if there was an actual serious kernel
> update was a reboot required and kexec/ksplice/et al were well on the
> way to solving that too.
> Apparently this is not a problem for the systemd developers, since their
> target has always been on-demand virtual machines in datacenters - not
> servers, desktops or laptops - so rapid start up times and constant
> reboots are expected.
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Hani Jabr <hani at nuix.net
> <mailto:hani at nuix.net>> wrote:
>
> Boot times may not matter to most people who only use Linux
> desktops, but when you have dozens or hundreds of servers boot times
> start to matter a lot. Firmware upgrades, patches, app upgrades,
> system changes. You can leave them up and running for years, but you
> don't. And that matters when there's more than one.
>
> And let's face it, it's embarrassing for Linux when a sparc box
> takes five times longer to POST and still boots up first...
>
> Hani
>
>
>
> > On 22 Sep 2014, at 11:12, Brad Campbell <brad at fnarfbargle.com
> <mailto:brad at fnarfbargle.com>> wrote:
> >
> > I've heard a few people tout faster boot times as the main
> positive thing about systemd. Personally the 3-4 times a year I
> actually boot a linux machine makes me care a _lot_ less about boot
> times and a lot more about being able to fix broken stuff with basic
> hand tools.
> >
> > What I do care about is the ability to bring up and repair a
> broken machine without remote hands or worrying about the behavior
> of a dark bag of vipers. I can fix and/or tailor init scripts on the
> fly. I don't natively speak dbus.
> >
> > Hibernate/Suspend has worked well now for years. Even my laptop
> only gets cold booted a couple of times a year. If I need to boot
> into Windows I suspend Linux and pop the battery out. Boot Windows,
> and when I re-boot back into linux it just un-hibernates to where I
> was before.
> > I suspend2both so if the battery dies I can un-hibernate,
> otherwise just wake it up with a keypress and I'm back in.
> >
> > I guess I'm just grumpy as I see it as yet another case of change
> for change's sake. Reading Lennart's blog again it really reads like
> he thinks linux will take OSX users by booting as fast as OSX, when
> in reality it's the totalitarian stewardship of OSX and the "one
> true path" that keeps users. They don't have to worry about dpkg vs
> rpm or Gnome vs anything else usable these days. It just works for a
> majority of the population and linux will never get there.
> >
> > When my mum phones up and asks a question about her Mac I can
> pretty much talk her through from memory, but when she uses the
> Ubuntu laptop I have set up for her to do her banking on I have to
> vnc in because shit keeps moving from release to release and I don't
> use Ubuntu anymore (and I can't see her coping with Debian and
> XMonad somehow).
> >
> > I see systemd as one of those black boxes that "just works",
> except that when it doesn't you are looking for a black button
> illuminated by a black light on a black control panel on a black
> wall in a black cave and it's very likely you'll be eaten by the
> Grue before you find it.
> >
> > Don't mind me, I'm just getting old and cantankerous.
> >
> >> On 22/09/14 05:39, B15HOP wrote:
> >> As much as I want to care about SystemD, I find that it's incredibly
> >> fast with bootup times.
> >>
> >> Some people say that it's a turn for the worse, I think it's another
> >> good option for another good cause. I think that Linux should
> always be
> >> about modularity and user demand. If a person wants oranges
> instead of
> >> apples, then so be it... Why do distro managers always try to
> make it
> >> easier by just going down either A or B. It just cuts people out
> that
> >> might already enjoy the distro. There are so many distros out
> there that
> >> Linux has become obfuscated rather than a collaboration effort.
> Linus
> >> then wonders why it hasn't won over the desktop, pretty easy to see
> >> why... As much as I don't like SystemD, it grew on me once I got the
> >> hang of it.
> >>
> >> A happy Arch user.
> >>
> >> Phillip.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:56 AM, Bill Kenworthy
> <billk at iinet.net.au <mailto:billk at iinet.net.au>
> >> <mailto:billk at iinet.net.au <mailto:billk at iinet.net.au>>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Systemd caused one of the longest ever flamefests on the
> gentoo mail
> >> lists! - end result is openrc is still the default init but
> we have to
> >> put up with odd bits of systemd and its servants scattered
> through the
> >> system :( Systemd had a (very) few supporters but its more
> that its
> >> being forced on people against their better judgement.
> >>
> >> The reputation of the systemd devs is very poor due to
> pulseaudio so
> >> that is a black mark against it being just "accepted" - the
> battle lines
> >> have already been drawn - it will be interesting to see if
> redhats data
> >> centre business suffers irreparable damage as the resistance
> from server
> >> admins is very high against it.
> >>
> >> Keep in mind that "YOU", the typical user are just collateral
> damage -
> >> the target of systemd is the cloud. Fast boot, use it and
> and then
> >> throwaway the image when done is the target. Keeping an
> image running
> >> reliably for months is not a priority any longer (check out
> the use of
> >> "chaosmonkey" in the data centre). When people like gnome
> (another
> >> bunch of losers :) jumped on board it has twisted the market
> towards
> >> something that's just not appropriate for most individual
> users. I dont
> >> think I can hold out forever, but will do do so until its no
> longer
> >> viable.
> >>
> >> Dont like where your distro is going - choose another or
> build your own
> >> - give up and follow the sheep, you are lost!
> >>
> >> From a happy lxde, moving to lxqt, eudev and openrc user :)
> >> BillK
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 08/09/14 06:13, Hani Jabr wrote:
> >> > It's not a couple of seconds, it's a few minutes when you have
> >> multiple applications that take time to start up, but can
> start in
> >> parallel. That is important on production systems.
> >> >
> >> > Systemd seems like a rubbish implementation of something
> that's
> >> long overdue on Linux. Every unix except AIX has implemented
> >> something similar.
> >> >
> >> > Hani
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> On 7 Sep 2014, at 23:49, Alexander <alex at spottedmouse.com
> <mailto:alex at spottedmouse.com>
> >> <mailto:alex at spottedmouse.com
> <mailto:alex at spottedmouse.com>>> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Found some more details:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.tecmint.com/systemd-replaces-init-in-linux/
> >> >>
> >> >> I think this article makes a good case against systemd.
> Why do
> >> we need
> >> >> all this extra complexity for a couple of seconds we save
> during
> >> >> startup. Since when is the startup time a measure for
> anything.
> >> Maybe I
> >> >> am getting too old. Have fond memories of uptime being a
> measure for
> >> >> things. Reminds me a little of the time when a new version of
> >> windows
> >> >> was released, which had a faster startup time as a major
> feature.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> On 03/09/14 14:56, Alexander wrote:
> >> >>> Just ran across : http://boycottsystemd.org/ and thought
> fellow
> >> pluggers
> >> >>> may be interested as well.
> >> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "The ecological crisis is a moral issue." PJP 2nd
> >>
> >>
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>
>
>
> --
> Sebastian Southen
> Systems Administrator,
> Murdoch IT Society
>
>
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