From chair at plug.org.au Wed Dec 11 06:43:43 2024 From: chair at plug.org.au (Harry McNally) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 06:43:43 +0800 Subject: [plug] 2025 Message-ID: <20241210224342.GA10129@plug.org.au> Hello The committee has been discussing our talk programme for 2025 and the question that came up is if we've asked what people's interests are -then- plan meetings or organise speakers. Because I was invited up into the chair role prior to our 2025 AGM on January 14 (save that), I promised Nick I'd make this request. So if you have any subjects that pique your interest and but haven't found the round tuit, let us know. Please reply to the list. I've (with some help) set up on the server to send this email. My server DMARC is too strict and (while that is the RightWay) it means the Mailman we are running adjusts the headers and smaller mail servers like gmail drop my messages. Some aspest of past email config means this address will likely bounce. Please be kind if you bump ReplyAll. Our plan is to upgrade to the latest Mailman 2 which apparently modifies the headers without offending the Goog. This, like many other PLUG server upgrades has some circular depenence on some other fix (bucket - Eliza) so we are trying to find ways to nibble away at small independent fixes. This could be a conversation for another thread. I'll put my own request in because of an interest in batteries and automotive to have a talk about socketcan with examples. I'm also interested in energy management and Home Assistant from people who are making energy savings rather than turning the lights on and off :-) Now, lets see if this works .. All the best Harry From chair at plug.org.au Mon Dec 23 18:57:36 2024 From: chair at plug.org.au (Harry McNally) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 18:57:36 +0800 Subject: [plug] AGM Announcement Message-ID: <20241223105736.GA11874@plug.org.au> Hello As defined in the PLUG Constitution https://www.plug.org.au/about/constitution/ the Perth Linux Group AGM will be held on Tuesday 14 January 2025 at Riff SpaceCubed, 45 St Georges Terrace, Perth. Agenda -1. Attendees and apologies 0. Quorum 1. Acceptance of 2024 AGM Minutes https://www.plug.org.au/events/AGM/2024/ 2. Committee Reports 3. Election of 2025 Committee 4. General Business Anyone who is a current PLUG Member may be nominated (or may self-nominate) for a role on the 2025 Committee. Please email committee at plug.org.au with your nominations or email any queston you have about roles on PLUG Committee. All the best Harry From chair at plug.org.au Thu Dec 26 12:41:11 2024 From: chair at plug.org.au (Harry McNally) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2024 12:41:11 +0800 Subject: [plug] Installfests Message-ID: <20241226044111.GA18905@plug.org.au> Hello There hasn't been any ideas in response to my earlier post and I can explain later why this matters for our 2025 programme. One of the other committee discussions was Installfest events; their importance to PLUG's formative membership and the relevance of Installfests in 2025. For anyone that was there when PLUG got very active in 1998, trying Linux for the first time was on someone's throwaway PC and a Installfests meant "Can you help me get xorg.conf right for my Bizzaro brand graphics card and HeavyAs brand glass monitor (that I just lugged up three flights to the loft in Cameron Hall so I'd really like some help to make it go) ?" So today, with resources on-line, standard hardware, standard images on an SD card (!) do people still need to meet, build, and install systems IRL ? During one of those installfests I borrowed a Philips driver briefly off an enthusiastic schoolboy to whip the cover off someone's PC case (probably to examine the Bizarro brand label on the graphics card). This guy also knew a lot about computers and Linux and was happy to share knowledge in the scrum of ideas, flaky hardware, and borrowed tools on those days. That schoolboy was Trent Lloyd, now a developer at Canonical and doing very good work (is the feedback I am hearing). People like Tony Breeds were there offering support and encouragement. They were fun days and the emphasis was just getting a machine to run Linux. Trent today: https://ceph2024.sched.com/speaker/trent at lloyd.id.au Fast-forward to what we would want to achieve with Installfests 2025. I have been wondering what could be delivered by small servers and running from a home internet account; returning to self hosting instead of buying services from cloud providers. What I didn't realise was that Nick Bannon had also thinking about hosting PLUG using a Pi and also testing that on a FttP connection. If we can obtain ISP sponsorship, PLUG could also run an independent account on one of the three unused UNI-D ports on the FttP. I'd be interested to hear if anyone is using more than one UNI-D port for other services (or for an independent users at home or in the granny flat). Also, hearing from potential sponsor ISPs would be welcome! We have a Raspberry Jam event scheduled for our March meeting. We may have advanced the PLUG on Pi project by then and the meet-up is an opportunity to demonstrate other public net facing projects. In the spirit of Installfests, the evening may be organised to demonstrate applications for the Pi or helping someone with ideas to get a project running on the Pi. If anyone has a project they would like to begin or a project they are proud to show off, please tell us about it here or to the committee at plug.org.au Later, I can describe a project that is seeking circa-2025 Trents but this post is long enough already. All the best Harry Chair Perth Linux User Group ps For any interest in building energy efficiency in my previous to last post, I received this event from Renew (Perth Branch) https://events.humanitix.com/how-to-save-on-your-energy-bills-using-low-cost-home-automation From home at oranges.id.au Thu Dec 26 17:09:14 2024 From: home at oranges.id.au (Gregory Orange) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2024 09:09:14 +0000 Subject: [plug] Installfests In-Reply-To: <20241226044111.GA18905@plug.org.au> References: <20241226044111.GA18905@plug.org.au> Message-ID: Hi Harry et al, On 26/12/24 12:41, Harry McNally wrote: > There hasn't been any ideas in response to my earlier post and I can explain later why this matters for our 2025 programme. Apologies. I typed something, hit send, and discovered that I had broken my email setup while hurriedly fixing it after missing a critical invoice while travelling. Today I am starting to feel post-chaos, or at least the current bout of it... Anyway, I'm interested in home automation, the HA software, electrification, efficiency, etc. I let my Renew+Sanctuary subscription drop a few years ago, but a couple of Facebook have been keeping me a bit informed about a few things. > During one of those installfests I borrowed a Philips driver briefly off an enthusiastic schoolboy to whip the cover off someone's PC case (probably to examine the Bizarro brand label on the graphics card). This guy also knew a lot about computers and Linux and was happy to share knowledge in the scrum of ideas, flaky hardware, and borrowed tools on those days. > > That schoolboy was Trent Lloyd, now a developer at Canonical and doing very good work (is the feedback I am hearing). People like Tony Breeds were there offering support and encouragement. They were fun days and the emphasis was just getting a machine to run Linux. > > Trent today: https://ceph2024.sched.com/speaker/trent at lloyd.id.au I love hearing these stories. I come across Trent semi-regularly, firstly when he spoke at one of the fledgling Perth OpenStack meetups, and most recently at Cephalocon in Geneva this month, where he gave me the tip to rescue the failures between my laptop & the conference venue hardware by using Google Slides. > Fast-forward to what we would want to achieve with Installfests 2025. -snip- RPi possibilities > > We have a Raspberry Jam event scheduled for our March meeting. We may have advanced the PLUG on Pi project by then and the meet-up is an opportunity to demonstrate other public net facing projects. > > In the spirit of Installfests, the evening may be organised to demonstrate applications for the Pi or helping someone with ideas to get a project running on the Pi. I'd love to say I will come to the March event, because my 10yo NUC is overpowered for what it does, and when it eventually dies I would like to know what I can practically achieve with a Pi. I also want to run HA, beyond the Docker container I started a year ago and promptly neglected. In reality though, life has been a blur so I've learned not to make certain promises even to myself. > https://events.humanitix.com/how-to-save-on-your-energy-bills-using-low-cost-home-automation Cool! Thank you, tis now added to my calendar wishlist. I'm a little surprised I didn't see in the MEEH & HA Facebook groups. Greg. From chris at mccormick.cx Fri Dec 27 00:22:00 2024 From: chris at mccormick.cx (Chris McCormick) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2024 16:22:00 +0000 Subject: [plug] Pi as NAS was Re: Installfests In-Reply-To: References: <20241226044111.GA18905@plug.org.au> Message-ID: On 26/12/2024 09:09, Gregory Orange wrote: > I'd love to say I will come to the March event, because my 10yo NUC is > overpowered for what it does, and when it eventually dies I would like > to know what I can practically achieve with a Pi. I have a Pi running in our place in Perth as a NAS (not sure if this is your exact use-case but I read between the lines). It works great but one thing to be aware of is you need a powered USB supply to connect external drives. I modified a Pi case STL file in Blender and 3d printed a little enclosure that houses everything - the powered USB hub, two drives, and the Pi itself. I set up Wireguard (much easier than I thought it would be) and now I can connect to the Pi from anywhere in the world from my laptop which is on the same Wireguard network. Really happy with this setup and it has saved me a bunch of times while traveling when I needed to access some old source file or document that is in backups. Just a +1 for replacing NUC with Pi really! Cheers, Chris. -- https://mccormick.cx/ From chair at plug.org.au Fri Dec 27 08:04:09 2024 From: chair at plug.org.au (Harry McNally) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 08:04:09 +0800 Subject: [plug] Why 2025 matters for PLUG Message-ID: <20241227000409.GA30989@plug.org.au> Thanks to Greg and Chris for the feedback so far I said in a previous post that the 2025 programme will be important for PLUG. This is because the tax office requires associations to provide a self assessment that justifies our not-for-profit tax free status based on a number of criteria. The committee has worked though those requirements and the obvious selection from available choices is that PLUG (as our constitution states) exists to educate it's members about all things Linux and OpenSource. The extended (and now final) deadline to make that declaration is in March 2025. The reason for developing a programme of talks and events for 2025 is that we demonstrate our commitment to the aims of PLUG as an educational group for our members. That is why I need to ask for your ideas and involvement as current (or re-joining) members so that we have our programme defined for the incoming 2025 committee. The new committee can then sign-off on our continuation as an association of like-minded members. My reading (from non-social media sources) is that community minded activities are expected to grow in 2025 based on both need and the perceived benefits of helping each other in what may continue as a difficult year. I can see PLUG providing a post COVID venue to get out, meet up, and share some face to face time over Linux and tech projects. We had other questions to answer about announcements, venues, access, meet-up times, and the general logistics of meeting up. Please don't be shy about explaining why our choices for those could be better to assist your ability to meet up. We need to know if there are ways we can help you to attend. All the best Harry Chair, Perth Linux User Group From brad at fnarfbargle.com Fri Dec 27 09:58:44 2024 From: brad at fnarfbargle.com (Brad Campbell) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 09:58:44 +0800 Subject: [plug] Pi as NAS was Re: Installfests In-Reply-To: References: <20241226044111.GA18905@plug.org.au> Message-ID: On 27/12/24 00:22, Chris McCormick wrote: > On 26/12/2024 09:09, Gregory Orange wrote: >> I'd love to say I will come to the March event, because my 10yo NUC is >> overpowered for what it does, and when it eventually dies I would like >> to know what I can practically achieve with a Pi. > > > I have a Pi running in our place in Perth as a NAS (not sure if this is your exact use-case but I read between the lines). We have 4 that are permanent and a couple that get used wirelessly for things like prgramming PICs or as wireless serial ports for configuring stuff. 2 are just running OpenElec as htpc boxes, so they don't really count. One is running some custom stuff and rtl_433 to read weather and temperature sensors, and also works as a network key server. The most important one runs our backup system. It runs SAMBA as a time machine destination for the Macs, but its biggest role is to perform nightly rsync backups of all our linux machines. It has a couple of 4TB USB drives attached, and we seem to average about 4 years of backups on a drive. It's on its third drive and a quick inspection of the filesystem indicates it was probably set up around 2014/2015. It has had a few hardware upgrades (mainly to improve cryptoloop performance), but still on the first sd card. Mythic Beasts has been doing Pi co-lo for a few years now. I've been meaning to play with one of those. Love my Pis. Regards, Brad From brad at fnarfbargle.com Fri Dec 27 10:43:26 2024 From: brad at fnarfbargle.com (Brad Campbell) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 10:43:26 +0800 Subject: [plug] Pi as NAS was Re: Installfests In-Reply-To: References: <20241226044111.GA18905@plug.org.au> Message-ID: <17e9cceb-21e4-4948-ab7c-d9c1cd21083f@fnarfbargle.com> On 27/12/24 09:58, Brad Campbell wrote: > One is running some custom stuff and rtl_433 to read weather and temperature sensors, and also works as a network key server. Oh, I forgot it's also running a 3x3 CCTV Matrix decoding 8 h264 streams and then has its hdmi output fed into an hdmi->h264 encoder which gets displayed on the htpc pi's as a video source. I tried for years to do it using the pi's inbuilt h264 encoder in a sort of loopback, but could never get it to work. From bill at kenworthy.id.au Fri Dec 27 11:06:33 2024 From: bill at kenworthy.id.au (William Kenworthy) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 11:06:33 +0800 Subject: [plug] Pi as NAS was Re: Installfests In-Reply-To: <17e9cceb-21e4-4948-ab7c-d9c1cd21083f@fnarfbargle.com> References: <20241226044111.GA18905@plug.org.au> <17e9cceb-21e4-4948-ab7c-d9c1cd21083f@fnarfbargle.com> Message-ID: On 27/12/24 10:43, Brad Campbell wrote: > On 27/12/24 09:58, Brad Campbell wrote: > >> One is running some custom stuff and rtl_433 to read weather and temperature sensors, and also works as a network key server. > Oh, I forgot it's also running a 3x3 CCTV Matrix decoding 8 h264 streams and then has its hdmi output fed into an hdmi->h264 encoder which gets displayed on the htpc pi's as a video source. > I tried for years to do it using the pi's inbuilt h264 encoder in a sort of loopback, but could never get it to work. > _______________________________________________ > PLUG discussion list: plug at plug.org.au > http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug > Committee e-mail: committee at plug.org.au > PLUG Membership: http://www.plug.org.au/membership > > Timely - I just unplugged my last Pi (a 3B) a couple of days ago as being too underpowered. I use mostly odroid systems (xu4/hc2/C4/N2) these days. I am in the process of moving most services to LXC containers including Homeassistant and various related services like esphome. All run gentoo/openrc. The end game is to have the N2's and C4's running as bare metal hosts for LXC and migrate the VM's as necessary between them. Its currently working across the N2's - my next tasks are creating better management scripts to automate tasks and putting together a profile to handle the different architectures between the N2's and C4'sbefore recompiling the VM's - the build system is optimised to the cpu and not generic. Sorta related - can frigate (with USB Coral) run in an LXC container successfully on an N2/C4 or equivent? (basicly a late Rpi) running AARCH64. I would like to bring it under the same system rather than keep it in docker on an Intel system. BillK From r.phillips at iinet.net.au Fri Dec 27 21:47:40 2024 From: r.phillips at iinet.net.au (Rob Phillips) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 21:47:40 +0800 Subject: [plug] Why 2025 matters for PLUG In-Reply-To: <20241227000409.GA30989@plug.org.au> References: <20241227000409.GA30989@plug.org.au> Message-ID: <1f6e2f75-1d02-4939-bc28-74779861c149@iinet.net.au> Greetings Thanks for this discussion. I'm not sure if I'm a paid-up member - I suspect I'm not. I am a newish linux user (although I used to do nerdy things with unix 35 years ago). I tried to migrate to linux 3-4 years ago, so I could wean myself off macs. I was unhappy with the direction they were taking with their hardware - just 2 USB-C ports and the expectation that everything would come off the cloud. As an outback and overseas traveller, this was too restrictive. I thought I'd try linux as an alternative. I have not found plug to be particularly useful - the esoteric stuff discussed on this list is way above my head. What I would be interested in is information about how to use linux as a productivity tool. * I'm pretty happy with LibreOffice * there seem to be multiple ways to install Apps, with different mechanisms for different Apps. Mostly, I seem to get sent to 'sudo apt ...' I can't find the easy way. * I make extensive use of the Mac App Keyboard Maestro (by WA guy Peter Lewis). This lets me do much of my repetitive work with a single keystroke. I haven't found anything in ubuntu that comes close. * Moving around in the file system is clunky. It's possible that I'm the only plug member with this profile. If so, that's fine. I muddle through, and keep using my Mac for productivity stuff. I just use the linux box for some modelling software from time to time. If you're thinking of education, I've outlined what I'd like to be educated about! Cheers Rob Dr Rob Phillips - Environista Member, Committee of Management, The Wilderness Society of WA (TWSWA) Vice-Chair, Sustainable Energy Now http://www.sen.asn.au Member, Eyre Bird Observatory Committee Helena Aurora Range Advocates http://helenaaurorarange.com.au 0416 065 054 rphillips6054 at gmail.com On 27/12/2024 8:04 am, Harry McNally wrote: > Thanks to Greg and Chris for the feedback so far > > I said in a previous post that the 2025 programme will be important for PLUG. This is because the tax office requires associations to provide a self assessment that justifies our not-for-profit tax free status based on a number of criteria. > > The committee has worked though those requirements and the obvious selection from available choices is that PLUG (as our constitution states) exists to educate it's members about all things Linux and OpenSource. > > The extended (and now final) deadline to make that declaration is in March 2025. > > The reason for developing a programme of talks and events for 2025 is that we demonstrate our commitment to the aims of PLUG as an educational group for our members. That is why I need to ask for your ideas and involvement as current (or re-joining) members so that we have our programme defined for the incoming 2025 committee. > > The new committee can then sign-off on our continuation as an association of like-minded members. > > My reading (from non-social media sources) is that community minded activities are expected to grow in 2025 based on both need and the perceived benefits of helping each other in what may continue as a difficult year. I can see PLUG providing a post COVID venue to get out, meet up, and share some face to face time over Linux and tech projects. > > We had other questions to answer about announcements, venues, access, meet-up times, and the general logistics of meeting up. Please don't be shy about explaining why our choices for those could be better to assist your ability to meet up. We need to know if there are ways we can help you to attend. > > All the best > Harry > Chair, Perth Linux User Group > > > _______________________________________________ > PLUG discussion list:plug at plug.org.au > http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug > Committee e-mail:committee at plug.org.au > PLUG Membership:http://www.plug.org.au/membership -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chair at plug.org.au Sun Dec 29 15:29:32 2024 From: chair at plug.org.au (Harry McNally) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2024 15:29:32 +0800 Subject: [plug] Feedback so far Message-ID: <20241229072932.GA7918@plug.org.au> Hello Thanks everyone that offered feedback so far. The committee may add to my observations when it meets. For now: Greg O said: > I'd love to say I will come to the March event, because my 10yo NUC is overpowered for what it does, and when it eventually dies I would like to know what I can practically achieve with a Pi. I also want to run HA, beyond the Docker container I started a year ago and promptly neglected. My interest is similarly low powered servers and the Pi has a high profile. If people have heard of Pi, it makes sense to make it an entry point for small projects. PLUG (through Nick's efforts) has access to support from Raspberry Pi Ltd for these events. Chris Mc said: > I have a Pi running in our place in Perth as a NAS. [..] I modified a Pi case STL file in Blender and 3d printed a little enclosure that houses everything - the powered USB hub, two drives, and the Pi itself. I set up Wireguard (..) and now I can connect to the Pi from anywhere in the world .. This would be a great project to show off on the Raspberry Jam evening if you are able to bring it. Brad C said: > We have 4 that are permanent and a couple that get used wirelessly for things like programming PICs or as wireless serial ports for configuring stuff. [.. interesting applications follow ..] These are all interesting applications although I can see it would be hard to bring physical hardware for the backup systems! It would be great to have you at the Raspberry Jam evening to talk about those applications or any that are pocket-able that you can bring along. > Mythic Beasts has been doing Pi co-lo for a few years now. I've been meaning to play with one of those. My own perspective is taking back the hardware rather than waggling the credit card at a cloud provider. The comparison I'd make is that a ham radio enthusiast isn't going to have the same fun by hiring a sat phone. I'm happy to be warned of obstacles for self hosting and ways around them. Still, part of the session could also demonstrate setting up a Pi at Mythic Beasts. Rob P said: > I have not found plug to be particularly useful - the esoteric stuff discussed on this list is way above my head. What I would be interested in is information about how to use linux as a productivity tool. Thanks Rob. I had someone say years ago that they don't post to the plug list because they were intimidated by the technical discussions. And yet then there was always people asking questions about this or that user application issue they hadn't found a way to solve. Today I see many solutions to issues on-line that can be contradictory or simply wrong. The PLUG list traffic has declined and it could be that it is only technical posts that remain. Jacek (committee) has also noted that he is getting people at Riff / SpaceCubed asking about Linux when they see him using it. This could assist us to re-invigorate the list with fresh questions and solutions. I can already see two opportunities for sessions from your list. There are graphical tools rather that using sudo apt but I'd argue they still require some work to figure out what packages you need to select for XYZ App. An evening looking at the available package management tools and security upgrades would be one for the committee to discuss and plan. Also, graphical file managers; configuring them, documentation, and how to request improvements to shortcomings. We have access to Ubuntu developers in Perth who could offer guidance on how to contact developer lists to request change. I think the committee need to ask (that is, survey) which file managers are of most interest and provide an evening that compares and contrasts features. BillK said: > Timely - I just unplugged my last Pi (a 3B) a couple of days ago as being too underpowered. To be honest, I haven't discussed the PLUG on Pi in any detail with Nick yet but the PLUG on Pi may run services on multiple Pi (or cluster ?). For now the AWS instance is only serving web and mailing list and membership management. If Nick shares my view then I think the idea is to see how much can be achieved using small hardware. PLUG used to offer shell services before the co-lo server failed so there are opportunities to see how far the Pi (one or more) can take that. I heard second-hand that scribe (hello) had talked on Masterdon about the PLUG Installfests. This got me thinking that the social media exclusion laws may be handing an opportunity to introduce circa-2025 Trents to open source tools and hardware. I'd like to explore if we can arrange sessions for 10 to 16 year olds (and anyone) to set up their own Masterdon on Pi. There are plenty of on-line resources describing how but a face to face would be a great way to assist anyone starting out with a Pi. Feedback welcome. All the best Harry Chair, Perth Linux User Group From brad at fnarfbargle.com Sun Dec 29 20:44:32 2024 From: brad at fnarfbargle.com (Brad Campbell) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2024 20:44:32 +0800 Subject: [plug] Feedback so far In-Reply-To: <20241229072932.GA7918@plug.org.au> References: <20241229072932.GA7918@plug.org.au> Message-ID: <5363a929-cfbb-492b-b500-730d4ff8b00f@fnarfbargle.com> On 29/12/24 15:29, Harry McNally wrote: > Brad C said: > >> We have 4 that are permanent and a couple that get used wirelessly for things like programming PICs or as wireless serial ports for configuring stuff. [.. interesting applications follow ..] > > These are all interesting applications although I can see it would be hard to bring physical hardware for the backup systems! It would be great to have you at the Raspberry Jam evening to talk about those applications or any that are pocket-able that you can bring along. I'm happy to put it in the diary. What *I* personally could use some practical advice for is IPv6. I run the home office from a server in the granny flat. I also have 2 VPS in the UK and one in Sydney. All devices have IPV4 available, and all have ipv6.disable=1 on their command line. This is purely because while I can configure a mail server, web server or DNS with my eyes closed, setting up the network and firewall to v6 is something I've never really had enough motivation to spend time figuring out. For example. I like NAT. I like the fact everything in the house has a single exit point. It makes firewalling easier and fingerprinting harder. I don't really want every device exposing a unique address to the world. I do this because it's the way I've always done it and it's like being wrapped in a nice comfortable and warm blanket. Now, whether that's right or misguided I don't have enough real work experience to judge. Likewise, all the hosted services could probably do with being set up to be IPv6 available (web, mail & DNS anyway), but not having any experience with configuring IPv6 it's easier to switch it off than spend time figuring out how to properly configure the firewalls. Even though the firewall is pretty damn simple. I do get the point about personal hosting. I suppose where I come from is I do a lot of hosting from home. NBN and Western Power being what they are, even with 10 hours of UPS *and* a generator I've had "a bit" of downtime over the years. My hosting with the external provider has had less than 5 minutes downtime in 18 years (and that was a migration between machines due to a hardware failure). Sometimes you *need* reliable, and sometimes just having a 1Gb pipe with a terrabyte per month of bandwidth is useful. Regards, Brad From chris at mccormick.cx Mon Dec 30 04:14:31 2024 From: chris at mccormick.cx (Chris McCormick) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2024 20:14:31 +0000 Subject: [plug] Linux on the desktop (was Re: Why 2025 matters for PLUG) In-Reply-To: <1f6e2f75-1d02-4939-bc28-74779861c149@iinet.net.au> References: <20241227000409.GA30989@plug.org.au> <1f6e2f75-1d02-4939-bc28-74779861c149@iinet.net.au> Message-ID: <4ec6e819-76b0-41b6-a0d7-18008b223952@mccormick.cx> Hi all, On 27/12/2024 13:47, Rob Phillips wrote: > I tried to migrate to linux 3-4 years ago, so I could wean myself off macs. I was unhappy with the direction they were taking with their hardware... > > I thought I'd try linux as an alternative. > > What I would be interested in is information about how to use linux as a > productivity tool. > > It's possible that I'm the only plug member with this profile. Even if Rob's profile is rare in PLUG (not sure) this sounds like a huge opportunity. I have heard of a lot of developers in recent years who have been Linux curious and wanted to make the switch from Windows or Mac. Linux is everywhere now and it's a viable desktop OS especially for tech people. It seems like doing modern Linux desktop sessions, desktop productivity sessions, could be useful to people like Rob. Problem solving sessions to help people out with "how to solve it with your Linux desktop" could be useful too. It could be the year of Linux on the desktop! :D I would personally be keen to attend one of these to help out new people getting started with Linux. Cheers, Chris. -- https://mccormick.cx/ From chris at mccormick.cx Mon Dec 30 04:18:52 2024 From: chris at mccormick.cx (Chris McCormick) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2024 20:18:52 +0000 Subject: [plug] Feedback so far In-Reply-To: <5363a929-cfbb-492b-b500-730d4ff8b00f@fnarfbargle.com> References: <20241229072932.GA7918@plug.org.au> <5363a929-cfbb-492b-b500-730d4ff8b00f@fnarfbargle.com> Message-ID: On 29/12/2024 12:44, Brad Campbell wrote: > What *I* personally could use some practical advice for is IPv6. Me too - I'm in the same boat. I know of IPv6 but I've never set it up, and I would like to learn more. > I can configure a mail server I would attend a session about this too. How to configure a Linux mail server in 2025. I run my own server but it's a stack of cards I don't want to touch. Would love to know how to set up a best practices server with all the new cryptography stuff. Has anybody tried Mail In A Box or one of those pre-configured systems? Cheers, Chris. -- https://mccormick.cx/ From dean.bergin at gmail.com Mon Dec 30 07:56:06 2024 From: dean.bergin at gmail.com (Dean Bergin) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2024 07:56:06 +0800 Subject: [plug] Feedback so far In-Reply-To: <20241229072932.GA7918@plug.org.au> References: <20241229072932.GA7918@plug.org.au> Message-ID: Hello PLUG Committee, Please advise when there's a call for talks. Based on the feedback from this thread, I think I might like to do two talks in the new year: 1. IPv6 for Systems Engineering 2. So you want to build a HomeLab? As someone who's primarily a Network Engineer (and who also has Systems Engineering skills) I have a certain amount of knowledge or hands-on experience in those topics listed above, but I'm also happy to do others that overlap into the networking-space (time permitting of course). Regards, *Dean Bergin*. On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 at 15:37, Harry McNally wrote: > Hello > > Thanks everyone that offered feedback so far. > > The committee may add to my observations when it meets. For now: > > Greg O said: > > > I'd love to say I will come to the March event, because my 10yo NUC is > overpowered for what it does, and when it eventually dies I would like to > know what I can practically achieve with a Pi. I also want to run HA, > beyond the Docker container I started a year ago and promptly neglected. > > My interest is similarly low powered servers and the Pi has a high > profile. If people have heard of Pi, it makes sense to make it an entry > point for small projects. PLUG (through Nick's efforts) has access to > support from Raspberry Pi Ltd for these events. > > Chris Mc said: > > > I have a Pi running in our place in Perth as a NAS. [..] I modified a Pi > case STL file in Blender and 3d printed a little enclosure that houses > everything - the powered USB hub, two drives, and the Pi itself. I set up > Wireguard (..) and now I can connect to the Pi from anywhere in the world .. > > This would be a great project to show off on the Raspberry Jam evening if > you are able to bring it. > > Brad C said: > > > We have 4 that are permanent and a couple that get used wirelessly for > things like programming PICs or as wireless serial ports for configuring > stuff. [.. interesting applications follow ..] > > These are all interesting applications although I can see it would be hard > to bring physical hardware for the backup systems! It would be great to > have you at the Raspberry Jam evening to talk about those applications or > any that are pocket-able that you can bring along. > > > Mythic Beasts has been doing Pi co-lo for a few years now. I've been > meaning to play with one of those. > > My own perspective is taking back the hardware rather than waggling the > credit card at a cloud provider. The comparison I'd make is that a ham > radio enthusiast isn't going to have the same fun by hiring a sat phone. > I'm happy to be warned of obstacles for self hosting and ways around them. > Still, part of the session could also demonstrate setting up a Pi at Mythic > Beasts. > > Rob P said: > > > I have not found plug to be particularly useful - the esoteric stuff > discussed on this list is way above my head. What I would be interested in > is information about how to use linux as a productivity tool. > > Thanks Rob. I had someone say years ago that they don't post to the plug > list because they were intimidated by the technical discussions. And yet > then there was always people asking questions about this or that user > application issue they hadn't found a way to solve. Today I see many > solutions to issues on-line that can be contradictory or simply wrong. The > PLUG list traffic has declined and it could be that it is only technical > posts that remain. Jacek (committee) has also noted that he is getting > people at Riff / SpaceCubed asking about Linux when they see him using it. > This could assist us to re-invigorate the list with fresh questions and > solutions. > > I can already see two opportunities for sessions from your list. > > There are graphical tools rather that using sudo apt but I'd argue they > still require some work to figure out what packages you need to select for > XYZ App. An evening looking at the available package management tools and > security upgrades would be one for the committee to discuss and plan. > > Also, graphical file managers; configuring them, documentation, and how to > request improvements to shortcomings. We have access to Ubuntu developers > in Perth who could offer guidance on how to contact developer lists to > request change. I think the committee need to ask (that is, survey) which > file managers are of most interest and provide an evening that compares and > contrasts features. > > BillK said: > > > Timely - I just unplugged my last Pi (a 3B) a couple of days ago as > being too underpowered. > > To be honest, I haven't discussed the PLUG on Pi in any detail with Nick > yet but the PLUG on Pi may run services on multiple Pi (or cluster ?). For > now the AWS instance is only serving web and mailing list and membership > management. If Nick shares my view then I think the idea is to see how much > can be achieved using small hardware. > > PLUG used to offer shell services before the co-lo server failed so there > are opportunities to see how far the Pi (one or more) can take that. > > I heard second-hand that scribe (hello) had talked on Masterdon about the > PLUG Installfests. This got me thinking that the social media exclusion > laws may be handing an opportunity to introduce circa-2025 Trents to open > source tools and hardware. I'd like to explore if we can arrange sessions > for 10 to 16 year olds (and anyone) to set up their own Masterdon on Pi. > There are plenty of on-line resources describing how but a face to face > would be a great way to assist anyone starting out with a Pi. > > Feedback welcome. > > All the best > Harry > Chair, Perth Linux User Group > > _______________________________________________ > PLUG discussion list: plug at plug.org.au > http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug > Committee e-mail: committee at plug.org.au > PLUG Membership: http://www.plug.org.au/membership > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at kenworthy.id.au Mon Dec 30 10:31:38 2024 From: bill at kenworthy.id.au (William Kenworthy) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2024 10:31:38 +0800 Subject: [plug] Feedback so far In-Reply-To: References: <20241229072932.GA7918@plug.org.au> Message-ID: <979b6771-1f11-4e06-9131-fca1169cd5da@kenworthy.id.au> I'll add a "me too" to IPv6 - back before I retired I turned IPv6 off as it misbehaved with numerous applications and never bothered to turn it back on - at least a decade ago, so I need a refresher :) Also I am aware of at least one instance where IPv6 tunnelled out of a supposed air-gapped secure network when a cable was inadvertently plugged into the wrong spot so methods to cover IPv6 security and a discussion around real world performance and issues compared to IPv4 would be useful. As for HomeLabs (see https://linuxhandbook.com/homelab/) many of us have one so maybe a main presentation and multiple short examples talks? BillK On 30/12/24 07:56, Dean Bergin wrote: > Hello PLUG Committee, > > Please advise when there's a call for talks. > > Based on the feedback from this thread, I think I might like to do two > talks in the new year: > > 1. IPv6 for Systems Engineering > 2. So you want to build a HomeLab? > > As someone?who's primarily a Network Engineer (and who also has > Systems Engineering skills) I have a certain amount of knowledge or > hands-on experience in those topics listed above, but I'm also happy > to do others that overlap into the networking-space (time permitting > of course). > > > Regards, > > /Dean Bergin/. > > > On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 at 15:37, Harry McNally wrote: > > Hello > > Thanks everyone that offered feedback so far. > > The committee may add to my observations when it meets. For now: > > Greg O said: > > > I'd love to say I will come to the March event, because my 10yo > NUC is overpowered for what it does, and when it eventually dies I > would like to know what I can practically achieve with a Pi. I > also want to run HA, beyond the Docker container I started a year > ago and promptly neglected. > > My interest is similarly low powered servers and the Pi has a high > profile. If people have heard of Pi, it makes sense to make it an > entry point for small projects. PLUG (through Nick's efforts) has > access to support from Raspberry Pi Ltd for these events. > > Chris Mc said: > > > I have a Pi running in our place in Perth as a NAS. [..] I > modified a Pi case STL file in Blender and 3d printed a little > enclosure that houses everything - the powered USB hub, two > drives, and the Pi itself. I set up Wireguard (..) and now I can > connect to the Pi from anywhere in the world .. > > This would be a great project to show off on the Raspberry Jam > evening if you are able to bring it. > > Brad C said: > > > We have 4 that are permanent and a couple that get used > wirelessly for things like programming PICs or as wireless serial > ports for configuring stuff. [.. interesting applications follow ..] > > These are all interesting applications although I can see it would > be hard to bring physical hardware for the backup systems! It > would be great to have you at the Raspberry Jam evening to talk > about those applications or any that are pocket-able that you can > bring along. > > > Mythic Beasts has been doing Pi co-lo for a few years now. I've > been meaning to play with one of those. > > My own perspective is taking back the hardware rather than > waggling the credit card at a cloud provider. The comparison I'd > make is that a ham radio enthusiast isn't going to have the same > fun by hiring a sat phone. I'm happy to be warned of obstacles for > self hosting and ways around them. Still, part of the session > could also demonstrate setting up a Pi at Mythic Beasts. > > Rob P said: > > > I have not found plug to be particularly useful - the esoteric > stuff discussed on this list is way above my head. What I would be > interested in is information about how to use linux as a > productivity tool. > > Thanks Rob. I had someone say years ago that they don't post to > the plug list because they were intimidated by the technical > discussions. And yet then there was always people asking questions > about this or that user application issue they hadn't found a way > to solve. Today I see many solutions to issues on-line that can be > contradictory or simply wrong. The PLUG list traffic has declined > and it could be that it is only technical posts that remain. Jacek > (committee) has also noted that he is getting people at Riff / > SpaceCubed asking about Linux when they see him using it. This > could assist us to re-invigorate the list with fresh questions and > solutions. > > I can already see two opportunities for sessions from your list. > > There are graphical tools rather that using sudo apt but I'd argue > they still require some work to figure out what packages you need > to select for XYZ App. An evening looking at the available package > management tools and security upgrades would be one for the > committee to discuss and plan. > > Also, graphical file managers; configuring them, documentation, > and how to request improvements to shortcomings. We have access to > Ubuntu developers in Perth who could offer guidance on how to > contact developer lists to request change. I think the committee > need to ask (that is, survey) which file managers are of most > interest and provide an evening that compares and contrasts features. > > BillK said: > > > Timely - I just unplugged my last Pi (a 3B) a couple of days ago > as being too underpowered. > > To be honest, I haven't discussed the PLUG on Pi in any detail > with Nick yet but the PLUG on Pi may run services on multiple Pi > (or cluster ?). For now the AWS instance is only serving web and > mailing list and membership management. If Nick shares my view > then I think the idea is to see how much can be achieved using > small hardware. > > PLUG used to offer shell services before the co-lo server failed > so there are opportunities to see how far the Pi (one or more) can > take that. > > I heard second-hand that scribe (hello) had talked on Masterdon > about the PLUG Installfests. This got me thinking that the social > media exclusion laws may be handing an opportunity to introduce > circa-2025 Trents to open source tools and hardware. I'd like to > explore if we can arrange sessions for 10 to 16 year olds (and > anyone) to set up their own Masterdon on Pi. There are plenty of > on-line resources describing how but a face to face would be a > great way to assist anyone starting out with a Pi. > > Feedback welcome. > > All the best > Harry > Chair, Perth Linux User Group > > _______________________________________________ > PLUG discussion list: plug at plug.org.au > http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug > Committee e-mail: committee at plug.org.au > PLUG Membership: http://www.plug.org.au/membership > > > _______________________________________________ > PLUG discussion list:plug at plug.org.au > http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug > Committee e-mail:committee at plug.org.au > PLUG Membership:http://www.plug.org.au/membership -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From home at oranges.id.au Mon Dec 30 10:51:28 2024 From: home at oranges.id.au (Gregory Orange) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2024 02:51:28 +0000 Subject: [plug] Feedback so far In-Reply-To: References: <20241229072932.GA7918@plug.org.au> <5363a929-cfbb-492b-b500-730d4ff8b00f@fnarfbargle.com> Message-ID: I'm loving this burst of conversation. Harry thank you for persistently prompting it. Rob thank you for venturing your thoughts. I reckon we need to hear different perspectives but it can be hard to know whether they're welcome. Another comment in line... -- Gregory Orange Sent from phone -------- Original Message -------- On 30/12/24 09:18, Chris McCormick wrote: > On 29/12/2024 12:44, Brad Campbell wrote: > > What *I* personally could use some practical advice for is IPv6. Me too. Not sure I want it because I'm currently thinking ipv4 will serve out my lifetime, but I'm open to learning. > > I can configure a mail server > > I would attend a session about this too. How to configure a Linux mail > server in 2025. I run my own server but it's a stack of cards I don't > want to touch. Would love to know how to set up a best practices server > with all the new cryptography stuff. Has anybody tried Mail In A Box or > one of those pre-configured systems? My house of cards teetered a few years ago so I burned it down and let's say I replaced it with a hosted inukshuk. I didn't have spare time to play with the MIABs at that time. I'm at an inflection point right now, after Yahoo broke a thing recently* with it and stopped some of my wife's messages arriving. So, I'm all ears. Greg. * Zoneedit now have a message in their mailmaps page warning that Yahoo doesn't work properly From chair at plug.org.au Mon Dec 30 10:28:32 2024 From: chair at plug.org.au (Harry McNally) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2024 10:28:32 +0800 Subject: [plug] IPv6 session Message-ID: <20241230022832.GA31697@plug.org.au> Hello Apologies for creating a new subject and breaking threading when sending from the server. It's complicated (and we need to fix things). Brad C said: > I'm happy to put it in the diary [H: bring show and tells to the Pi evening]. What *I* personally could use some practical advice for is IPv6. [H: Thanks also for pointers on hosting from a residential FttP (I assume ?). We could use further feedback on that experiance if we are to suggest it for Pi hosting] Dean B posted: > Based on the feedback from this thread, I think I might like to do two talks in the new year: > IPv6 for Systems Engineering > So you want to build a HomeLab? Thanks Dean. I am not familiar with how the committee arranges these talks yet but please have a look at the dates on the Events page and let committee know what days you could present. Actually, just post ideas here I think. Other list members may then ask about particular issues and if you can cover them in the talks. I'll raise here what I have been thinking about for the talks. I attended Nick's Pi workshop at UCC and regretted not looking at the material on the links provided beforehand. I would have discovered a few wrinkles in the project that would have saved me time for the more interesting aspects. I am wondering if the talks, when announced, can include some vetted links selected by presenters, committee, or someone like Brad C who has an interest in learning a topic so we can come along with some preliminary knowledge or with questions if the learning stalls or creates further questions. As Brad pointed out, is it is the practical (implementation) advice that experience brings that I find is where on-line resources sometimes get thinner. If anyone has an idea for a talk, please consider what on-line resources are useful and from multiple material types including on-line videos. I'd be interested to see if we try this whether other participants find it useful. All the best Harry From chair at plug.org.au Mon Dec 30 11:12:39 2024 From: chair at plug.org.au (Harry McNally) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2024 11:12:39 +0800 Subject: [plug] Membership of PLUG Message-ID: <20241230031239.GB31697@plug.org.au> Hello Both Dr Rob and Chris Mc have asked about their membership status so I can explain where we are with that. Membership has several meanings at PLUG. List membership is free and there are 350+ people subscribed. When I look at the subscribers, many are familiar names from way back in the day. Nick summed it up when he said "The list has become a bit old-guard". Including us ':-) That has partly come about because there is password access setup on the subscribing page to thwart the spammers and their bots that would otherwise smash the open list without a barrier. Subscriber moderation became too onerous (and the spammers are damn sneaky) hence the password. It isn't easy to subscribe anymore. We need to use MeetUp and other tools to invite people along to events simply to explain how they can access the list management page. Full PLUG membership is a small fee which supports the talks and events that we run in addition to similarly modest costs for equipment and some online services like AWS for the server. There is a reminder email that you should receive when your subscription expires but; like many other subscriptions I have, these sometimes slip past. Chris Mc asked if automatic deductions are available. They are not yet and I have no domain knowledge for how much security and other merchant hoops are necessary to implement this. If committee allows this and someone wants to step up and assist with preparing the configurations and details for this we can get that in place for 2025. What I can do for now is ask Nick or Paul if we can generate an email that advises paid up status. Then I can email the list to advise that has been sent. It means, if you don't receive and email then you are not currently a PLUG member. If you think we have missed you, please contact committee at . James had done some work on other payment methods but presently, methods are described on the page: http://plug.org.au/membership/ The membership management is manual between seeing the cash or money in the account and adjusting the membership list so give us some time to process these. All the best Harry Chair, Perth Linux User Group From chair at plug.org.au Mon Dec 30 14:48:39 2024 From: chair at plug.org.au (Harry McNally) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2024 14:48:39 +0800 Subject: [plug] Membership status has been sent Message-ID: <20241230064839.GD6563@plug.org.au> Hello Unless my hand crafted email went spang, people who are paid up members should have received an email telling them so. The subs renewal script sends an email like: ------------------------------------------------- Subject: Your PLUG Membership has Expired Date: .. the expiry date or the day before .. From: PLUG Membership Scripts Reply-To: PLUG Committee To: .. this received email address .. Dear .. you .. Your PLUG membership expired on .. the expiry date. --------------------------------------------------- Searching back I was embarrassed to find my email reminder was in 2023 so I had a gap year before resubscribing in July 2024. The script sends this as a first and final reminder so this is why it easy for it to slip past on the incoming email. All the best Harry Chair, Perth Liux User Group From nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au Tue Dec 31 16:04:55 2024 From: nick at ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (Nick Bannon) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2024 16:04:55 +0800 Subject: [plug] Vale Peter Lyons Message-ID: I'm saddened to say here that major PLUG contributor Peter Lyons died this month. https://www.westannouncements.com.au/browse/funeral-notices/view/lyons-peter https://www.westannouncements.com.au/funeral-homes/perth-north/seasons-funerals-balcatta Family and Friends are warmly invited to the Funeral Service to Celebrate the Life of Peter Lyons at PINNAROO Valley Memorial Park, West Chapel, FRIDAY (3.1.2025) commencing at 11.00am. Pinnaroo Valley Memorial Park Whitfords Avenue Padbury WA 6025 Nick. -- Nick Bannon | "I made this letter longer than usual because nick-sig at rcpt.to | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal From james at rcpt.to Tue Dec 31 18:13:56 2024 From: james at rcpt.to (James Bromberger) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2024 18:13:56 +0800 Subject: [plug] Vale Peter Lyons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gutted. Thanks for sharing, Nick. Peter was a huge contributor to PLUG, shown here helping sell raffle tickets at the PLUG Quiz Night 28 March 2011, back in the old Moon & Six Pence: Always smiling, always helping. ? ? James On 31/12/2024 4:04 pm, Nick Bannon wrote: > I'm saddened to say here that major PLUG contributor Peter Lyons died > this month. > > https://www.westannouncements.com.au/browse/funeral-notices/view/lyons-peter > https://www.westannouncements.com.au/funeral-homes/perth-north/seasons-funerals-balcatta > > Family and Friends are warmly invited to the Funeral Service to > Celebrate the Life of Peter Lyons at PINNAROO Valley Memorial Park, West > Chapel, FRIDAY (3.1.2025) commencing at 11.00am. > > Pinnaroo Valley Memorial Park > Whitfords Avenue > Padbury WA 6025 > > Nick. > -- James Bromberger M: +61 422 166 708 T: @JamesBromberger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Pl2vzBkhmzkzduel.png Type: image/png Size: 5012742 bytes Desc: not available URL: