> So... walk into a US embassy or military base and you're on US soil 
under US 
> flag and the protection of its laws - except for this bit over here 
where we 
> torture people, an action well outside the bounds of US law and almost 
> certainly international law as well.

And quite rightly I reckon. 

I like the way the US approaches some things. The rules only apply in 
times of peace. If you threaten their way of life directly, expect morals 
and rules to be thrown out of the window. They are literally the most 
powerful military force the world has ever known. 

Dont piss them off. Quite simple really.

You can walk around trying to be subtle, being diplomatic, trying to talk 
it out. But sometimes the gloves come off, and I can tell you that the US 
has a better record at being a nasty peace of work than any other country 
in the world. When theyre nasty, theyre *nasty*. 

As long as I dont have to witness the horror of a man being tortured, and 
am allowed to continue in my own little peaceful world, I am forever 
indebted to these people.

The US aint the bad guys - unless threatened. Then they are the worst.

Do you reckon my grandfather, or several people I have known over the 
years, went to WW2/vietnam/korea to be nice guys? War is war. They went, 
killed a lot of people, suffered enormously, and those that are still 
breathing are still suffering (like my mate who wakes up screaming nearly 
every night post-vietnam). And theyd do it again. They did it so people 
like ourselves can sit chatting aimlessly on a mail list about things we 
cant comprehend. They paid the price for our freedom. 

I take my hat off to all of them, and the current US action. If it means 
that my daughter can grow up without worrying about being the target of a 
terrorist attack, I back them fully. 

The absolute truth is that I would prefer that 100 terrorists were killed 
or tortured to my family suffering any harm whatsoever. I dont even mind 
if some of them are wrongly accused. 

A man with bamboo under his fingernails is more likely to talk than if you 
simply say 'please'.

> 
> Of course, if they're prepared to down such basic and obvious freedoms 
in the 
> name of national security, are they going to blink at downing a freedom 
which 
> allows Linux to flourish? [you just read the on-topic 1%]
> 

woaah. Way off. Do you think Linux would flourish in a world run by 
terrorists? They are *protecting* your freedoms, including the freedom to 
develop linux. 

Personally I think the gonoeva convention is a crock. Its war. You want to 
be nice, stay at home. Unless youre willing to commit completely to the 
horror that is war, you dont care enough about the topic at hand.

<snip!>
> a two-pronged system of government which gives it the appearance of 
> gentleness, but is really nasty at heart. Which kind of matches the USA. 

eh? Go have a lie down Leon :D

>We 
> have these laws under which everyone gets a fair deal and nobody gets 
> tortured, aren't we great?' Land of the free, rah rah.

Freedom has its limits. You want to fly planes into large buildings, or 
bomb a night club full of drunk Aussies, then I think perhaps you have 
defaulted your rights to protection under the 'rules'. If youre nice and 
peaceful and good to your fellow man, then you have nothing to fear.


> ...which is exactly where Palladium and the SSO projects like Passport 
are 
> headed...

errr, ok.... 

> 
>     Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of
>     the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six
>     hundred threescore and six.
>  
> `Name' seems to imply something more along the lines of reputation or 
> character (as in `he made a name for himself') than a literal moniker 
like 
> Robert or Lauren. If I find 666 buried somewhere in Passport or 
Palladium, 
> I'm not sure how I'll react. (-:

oh, ok, i geddit. 666, the number of the beast. Good one :D This reminds 
me of the 666 in barcodes deal that was circulating a while back....

I find it interesting that someone (and Im not singling you out Leon, dont 
get me wrong) can sit in a nice home, in a nice city, in a nice country, 
playing on a nice computer, reading information on an unrestricted 
internet connection, with a full stomach, and with little to no fear of 
harm, all of which has been afforded them by the sacrifices of the many, 
many people who have fought and died for these privileges, and come to the 
conclusion that the people who are making those sacrifices are evil. 

I think the young people in this country need a good dose of national 
service to wake them up - I dont want the next generation of leaders to 
let the country become overrun with terrorists and extremists just to 
avoid offending someone..... :D


Anyway, thanks for the thought provoker Leon :D

Simon

