<div dir="ltr">It's far more embarrassing that systemd has introduced to Linux the
"reboot to apply update" feature of Windows, because so many "essential"
system services are bolted into PID 1 if any part of them needs to be
upgraded the entire system needs to be rebooted. Previously restarting
the relevant service was enough, the kernel and any other services could
remain operating for years. Only if there was an actual serious kernel
update was a reboot required and kexec/ksplice/et al were well on the
way to solving that too.<br>Apparently this is not a problem for the
systemd developers, since their target has always been on-demand virtual
machines in datacenters - not servers, desktops or laptops - so rapid
start up times and constant reboots are expected.<br><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Hani Jabr <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:hani@nuix.net" target="_blank">hani@nuix.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Boot times may not matter to most people who only use Linux desktops, but when you have dozens or hundreds of servers boot times start to matter a lot. Firmware upgrades, patches, app upgrades, system changes. You can leave them up and running for years, but you don't. And that matters when there's more than one.<br>
<br>
And let's face it, it's embarrassing for Linux when a sparc box takes five times longer to POST and still boots up first...<br>
<span class=""><font color="#888888"><br>
Hani<br>
</font></span><div class=""><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
> On 22 Sep 2014, at 11:12, Brad Campbell <<a href="mailto:brad@fnarfbargle.com">brad@fnarfbargle.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I've heard a few people tout faster boot times as the main positive thing about systemd. Personally the 3-4 times a year I actually boot a linux machine makes me care a _lot_ less about boot times and a lot more about being able to fix broken stuff with basic hand tools.<br>
><br>
> What I do care about is the ability to bring up and repair a broken machine without remote hands or worrying about the behavior of a dark bag of vipers. I can fix and/or tailor init scripts on the fly. I don't natively speak dbus.<br>
><br>
> Hibernate/Suspend has worked well now for years. Even my laptop only gets cold booted a couple of times a year. If I need to boot into Windows I suspend Linux and pop the battery out. Boot Windows, and when I re-boot back into linux it just un-hibernates to where I was before.<br>
> I suspend2both so if the battery dies I can un-hibernate, otherwise just wake it up with a keypress and I'm back in.<br>
><br>
> I guess I'm just grumpy as I see it as yet another case of change for change's sake. Reading Lennart's blog again it really reads like he thinks linux will take OSX users by booting as fast as OSX, when in reality it's the totalitarian stewardship of OSX and the "one true path" that keeps users. They don't have to worry about dpkg vs rpm or Gnome vs anything else usable these days. It just works for a majority of the population and linux will never get there.<br>
><br>
> When my mum phones up and asks a question about her Mac I can pretty much talk her through from memory, but when she uses the Ubuntu laptop I have set up for her to do her banking on I have to vnc in because shit keeps moving from release to release and I don't use Ubuntu anymore (and I can't see her coping with Debian and XMonad somehow).<br>
><br>
> I see systemd as one of those black boxes that "just works", except that when it doesn't you are looking for a black button illuminated by a black light on a black control panel on a black wall in a black cave and it's very likely you'll be eaten by the Grue before you find it.<br>
><br>
> Don't mind me, I'm just getting old and cantankerous.<br>
><br>
>> On 22/09/14 05:39, B15HOP wrote:<br>
>> As much as I want to care about SystemD, I find that it's incredibly<br>
>> fast with bootup times.<br>
>><br>
>> Some people say that it's a turn for the worse, I think it's another<br>
>> good option for another good cause. I think that Linux should always be<br>
>> about modularity and user demand. If a person wants oranges instead of<br>
>> apples, then so be it... Why do distro managers always try to make it<br>
>> easier by just going down either A or B. It just cuts people out that<br>
>> might already enjoy the distro. There are so many distros out there that<br>
>> Linux has become obfuscated rather than a collaboration effort. Linus<br>
>> then wonders why it hasn't won over the desktop, pretty easy to see<br>
>> why... As much as I don't like SystemD, it grew on me once I got the<br>
>> hang of it.<br>
>><br>
>> A happy Arch user.<br>
>><br>
>> Phillip.<br>
>><br>
>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:56 AM, Bill Kenworthy <<a href="mailto:billk@iinet.net.au">billk@iinet.net.au</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:billk@iinet.net.au">billk@iinet.net.au</a>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Systemd caused one of the longest ever flamefests on the gentoo mail<br>
>> lists! - end result is openrc is still the default init but we have to<br>
>> put up with odd bits of systemd and its servants scattered through the<br>
>> system :( Systemd had a (very) few supporters but its more that its<br>
>> being forced on people against their better judgement.<br>
>><br>
>> The reputation of the systemd devs is very poor due to pulseaudio so<br>
>> that is a black mark against it being just "accepted" - the battle lines<br>
>> have already been drawn - it will be interesting to see if redhats data<br>
>> centre business suffers irreparable damage as the resistance from server<br>
>> admins is very high against it.<br>
>><br>
>> Keep in mind that "YOU", the typical user are just collateral damage -<br>
>> the target of systemd is the cloud. Fast boot, use it and and then<br>
>> throwaway the image when done is the target. Keeping an image running<br>
>> reliably for months is not a priority any longer (check out the use of<br>
>> "chaosmonkey" in the data centre). When people like gnome (another<br>
>> bunch of losers :) jumped on board it has twisted the market towards<br>
>> something that's just not appropriate for most individual users. I dont<br>
>> think I can hold out forever, but will do do so until its no longer<br>
>> viable.<br>
>><br>
>> Dont like where your distro is going - choose another or build your own<br>
>> - give up and follow the sheep, you are lost!<br>
>><br>
>> From a happy lxde, moving to lxqt, eudev and openrc user :)<br>
>> BillK<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 08/09/14 06:13, Hani Jabr wrote:<br>
>> > It's not a couple of seconds, it's a few minutes when you have<br>
>> multiple applications that take time to start up, but can start in<br>
>> parallel. That is important on production systems.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Systemd seems like a rubbish implementation of something that's<br>
>> long overdue on Linux. Every unix except AIX has implemented<br>
>> something similar.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Hani<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> >> On 7 Sep 2014, at 23:49, Alexander <<a href="mailto:alex@spottedmouse.com">alex@spottedmouse.com</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex@spottedmouse.com">alex@spottedmouse.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Found some more details:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> <a href="http://www.tecmint.com/systemd-replaces-init-in-linux/" target="_blank">http://www.tecmint.com/systemd-replaces-init-in-linux/</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> I think this article makes a good case against systemd. Why do<br>
>> we need<br>
>> >> all this extra complexity for a couple of seconds we save during<br>
>> >> startup. Since when is the startup time a measure for anything.<br>
>> Maybe I<br>
>> >> am getting too old. Have fond memories of uptime being a measure for<br>
>> >> things. Reminds me a little of the time when a new version of<br>
>> windows<br>
>> >> was released, which had a faster startup time as a major feature.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >>> On 03/09/14 14:56, Alexander wrote:<br>
>> >>> Just ran across : <a href="http://boycottsystemd.org/" target="_blank">http://boycottsystemd.org/</a> and thought fellow<br>
>> pluggers<br>
>> >>> may be interested as well.<br>
>> >>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >>> PLUG discussion list: <a href="mailto:plug@plug.org.au">plug@plug.org.au</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:plug@plug.org.au">plug@plug.org.au</a>><br>
>> >>> <a href="http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug" target="_blank">http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug</a><br>
>> >>> Committee e-mail: <a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au">committee@plug.org.au</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au">committee@plug.org.au</a>><br>
>> >>> PLUG Membership: <a href="http://www.plug.org.au/membership" target="_blank">http://www.plug.org.au/membership</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> PLUG discussion list: <a href="mailto:plug@plug.org.au">plug@plug.org.au</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:plug@plug.org.au">plug@plug.org.au</a>><br>
>> >> <a href="http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug" target="_blank">http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug</a><br>
>> >> Committee e-mail: <a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au">committee@plug.org.au</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au">committee@plug.org.au</a>><br>
>> >> PLUG Membership: <a href="http://www.plug.org.au/membership" target="_blank">http://www.plug.org.au/membership</a><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > PLUG discussion list: <a href="mailto:plug@plug.org.au">plug@plug.org.au</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:plug@plug.org.au">plug@plug.org.au</a>><br>
>> > <a href="http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug" target="_blank">http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug</a><br>
>> > Committee e-mail: <a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au">committee@plug.org.au</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au">committee@plug.org.au</a>><br>
>> > PLUG Membership: <a href="http://www.plug.org.au/membership" target="_blank">http://www.plug.org.au/membership</a><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> PLUG discussion list: <a href="mailto:plug@plug.org.au">plug@plug.org.au</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:plug@plug.org.au">plug@plug.org.au</a>><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug" target="_blank">http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug</a><br>
>> Committee e-mail: <a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au">committee@plug.org.au</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au">committee@plug.org.au</a>><br>
>> PLUG Membership: <a href="http://www.plug.org.au/membership" target="_blank">http://www.plug.org.au/membership</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> "The ecological crisis is a moral issue." PJP 2nd<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> PLUG discussion list: <a href="mailto:plug@plug.org.au">plug@plug.org.au</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug" target="_blank">http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug</a><br>
>> Committee e-mail: <a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au">committee@plug.org.au</a><br>
>> PLUG Membership: <a href="http://www.plug.org.au/membership" target="_blank">http://www.plug.org.au/membership</a><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> PLUG discussion list: <a href="mailto:plug@plug.org.au">plug@plug.org.au</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug" target="_blank">http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug</a><br>
> Committee e-mail: <a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au">committee@plug.org.au</a><br>
> PLUG Membership: <a href="http://www.plug.org.au/membership" target="_blank">http://www.plug.org.au/membership</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
PLUG discussion list: <a href="mailto:plug@plug.org.au">plug@plug.org.au</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug" target="_blank">http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug</a><br>
Committee e-mail: <a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au">committee@plug.org.au</a><br>
PLUG Membership: <a href="http://www.plug.org.au/membership" target="_blank">http://www.plug.org.au/membership</a></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Sebastian Southen<br>Systems Administrator,<br>Murdoch IT Society</div>
</div></div>