<div dir="ltr">It's taken me a little while to get my head around this, but boot time is important in an environment where the uptime of a machine can be measured in minutes. I hear you shaking your head, linux uptime in *minutes* - what is he smoking and where do I get some? Bear with me.<div><br></div><div>In an AWS EC2 environment (or any other virtualised one) you might spin up a machine to do some analysis of a logfile. When the processing is done, you kill the machine and only rebuild and fire up the machine a week later when you need to do some more processing.</div><div><br></div><div>Or you might spin up 100 machines to deal with a chunky load, then kill them all, leaving 2 running, then spin up 40, kill 30, spin up 150, etc.</div><div><br></div><div>This is not how we have grown up to run our computers, but computing on demand has made it possible to run a virtual machine at fast enough speeds that the speed trade-off in using bare-metal is far outweighed by the simplicity of management in spinning up just enough machines to do the job, then killing them off when they're no longer needed. It's often cheaper to spin up 100 tiny machines than it is to keep 2 big ones running all the time. Amazon has pretty pictures to show this, but it's about reducing the waste associated with "spare capacity".</div><div><br></div><div>This is happening at a massive scale across the globe, in virtual data centres everywhere. Shaving off a couple of seconds for each machine is a *big deal*.</div><div><br></div><div>This requires a different mind-set. Of course, the machine isn't often customised to a particular task, it's a run-of-the-mill linux box that stores its state outside the machine - using some configuration magic, or a database, or some or other context sensitive thing. You might build your own machine image, only with the bits you need, but making it fast is important when you're running lots of little machines doing lots of little tasks.</div><div><br></div><div>One of the ways that linux is pissing all over Windows in this environment is that linux boots in seconds, where Windows boots in minutes. (And I'm talking about servers, not desktops.)</div><div><br></div><div>So, that's why boot time is important.</div><div><br></div><div>Of course, if you implement something as far reaching as systemd, then it pays to have the same tools across all your machines, be they dedicated bare-metal machines, or virtual throw-away ones.<br><br>Do you need an amazing boot time for a machine that stays up for years - of course not - and that's not what it's for.</div><div><br></div><div>Hope that this sheds some light on the subject.</div><div><br></div><div>o </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 22 September 2014 15:17, Brad Campbell <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:brad@fnarfbargle.com" target="_blank">brad@fnarfbargle.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Ok, I've really struggled with this one but it occurs to me that some people use vendor kernels and reboot when the vendor issues an update.<br>
<br>
I still don't understand _why_ boot time matters because by the time I've issued the reboot command I've moved on with my life before the thing has terminated the ssh session.<br>
<br>
Can you give me a concrete example as to why boot time matters?<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On 22/09/14 11:38, Hani Jabr wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Boot times may not matter to most people who only use Linux desktops, but when you have dozens or hundreds of servers boot times start to matter a lot. Firmware upgrades, patches, app upgrades, system changes. You can leave them up and running for years, but you don't. And that matters when there's more than one.<br>
<br>
And let's face it, it's embarrassing for Linux when a sparc box takes five times longer to POST and still boots up first...<br>
<br>
Hani<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On 22 Sep 2014, at 11:12, Brad Campbell <<a href="mailto:brad@fnarfbargle.com" target="_blank">brad@fnarfbargle.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
I've heard a few people tout faster boot times as the main positive thing about systemd. Personally the 3-4 times a year I actually boot a linux machine makes me care a _lot_ less about boot times and a lot more about being able to fix broken stuff with basic hand tools.<br>
<br>
What I do care about is the ability to bring up and repair a broken machine without remote hands or worrying about the behavior of a dark bag of vipers. I can fix and/or tailor init scripts on the fly. I don't natively speak dbus.<br>
<br>
Hibernate/Suspend has worked well now for years. Even my laptop only gets cold booted a couple of times a year. If I need to boot into Windows I suspend Linux and pop the battery out. Boot Windows, and when I re-boot back into linux it just un-hibernates to where I was before.<br>
I suspend2both so if the battery dies I can un-hibernate, otherwise just wake it up with a keypress and I'm back in.<br>
<br>
I guess I'm just grumpy as I see it as yet another case of change for change's sake. Reading Lennart's blog again it really reads like he thinks linux will take OSX users by booting as fast as OSX, when in reality it's the totalitarian stewardship of OSX and the "one true path" that keeps users. They don't have to worry about dpkg vs rpm or Gnome vs anything else usable these days. It just works for a majority of the population and linux will never get there.<br>
<br>
When my mum phones up and asks a question about her Mac I can pretty much talk her through from memory, but when she uses the Ubuntu laptop I have set up for her to do her banking on I have to vnc in because shit keeps moving from release to release and I don't use Ubuntu anymore (and I can't see her coping with Debian and XMonad somehow).<br>
<br>
I see systemd as one of those black boxes that "just works", except that when it doesn't you are looking for a black button illuminated by a black light on a black control panel on a black wall in a black cave and it's very likely you'll be eaten by the Grue before you find it.<br>
<br>
Don't mind me, I'm just getting old and cantankerous.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On 22/09/14 05:39, B15HOP wrote:<br>
As much as I want to care about SystemD, I find that it's incredibly<br>
fast with bootup times.<br>
<br>
Some people say that it's a turn for the worse, I think it's another<br>
good option for another good cause. I think that Linux should always be<br>
about modularity and user demand. If a person wants oranges instead of<br>
apples, then so be it... Why do distro managers always try to make it<br>
easier by just going down either A or B. It just cuts people out that<br>
might already enjoy the distro. There are so many distros out there that<br>
Linux has become obfuscated rather than a collaboration effort. Linus<br>
then wonders why it hasn't won over the desktop, pretty easy to see<br>
why... As much as I don't like SystemD, it grew on me once I got the<br>
hang of it.<br>
<br>
A happy Arch user.<br>
<br>
Phillip.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:56 AM, Bill Kenworthy <<a href="mailto:billk@iinet.net.au" target="_blank">billk@iinet.net.au</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:billk@iinet.net.au" target="_blank">billk@iinet.net.au</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Systemd caused one of the longest ever flamefests on the gentoo mail<br>
lists! - end result is openrc is still the default init but we have to<br>
put up with odd bits of systemd and its servants scattered through the<br>
system :( Systemd had a (very) few supporters but its more that its<br>
being forced on people against their better judgement.<br>
<br>
The reputation of the systemd devs is very poor due to pulseaudio so<br>
that is a black mark against it being just "accepted" - the battle lines<br>
have already been drawn - it will be interesting to see if redhats data<br>
centre business suffers irreparable damage as the resistance from server<br>
admins is very high against it.<br>
<br>
Keep in mind that "YOU", the typical user are just collateral damage -<br>
the target of systemd is the cloud. Fast boot, use it and and then<br>
throwaway the image when done is the target. Keeping an image running<br>
reliably for months is not a priority any longer (check out the use of<br>
"chaosmonkey" in the data centre). When people like gnome (another<br>
bunch of losers :) jumped on board it has twisted the market towards<br>
something that's just not appropriate for most individual users. I dont<br>
think I can hold out forever, but will do do so until its no longer<br>
viable.<br>
<br>
Dont like where your distro is going - choose another or build your own<br>
- give up and follow the sheep, you are lost!<br>
<br>
From a happy lxde, moving to lxqt, eudev and openrc user :)<br>
BillK<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 08/09/14 06:13, Hani Jabr wrote:<br>
> It's not a couple of seconds, it's a few minutes when you have<br>
multiple applications that take time to start up, but can start in<br>
parallel. That is important on production systems.<br>
><br>
> Systemd seems like a rubbish implementation of something that's<br>
long overdue on Linux. Every unix except AIX has implemented<br>
something similar.<br>
><br>
> Hani<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>> On 7 Sep 2014, at 23:49, Alexander <<a href="mailto:alex@spottedmouse.com" target="_blank">alex@spottedmouse.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:alex@spottedmouse.com" target="_blank">alex@spottedmouse.com</a>><u></u>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Found some more details:<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://www.tecmint.com/systemd-replaces-init-in-linux/" target="_blank">http://www.tecmint.com/<u></u>systemd-replaces-init-in-<u></u>linux/</a><br>
>><br>
>> I think this article makes a good case against systemd. Why do<br>
we need<br>
>> all this extra complexity for a couple of seconds we save during<br>
>> startup. Since when is the startup time a measure for anything.<br>
Maybe I<br>
>> am getting too old. Have fond memories of uptime being a measure for<br>
>> things. Reminds me a little of the time when a new version of<br>
windows<br>
>> was released, which had a faster startup time as a major feature.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> On 03/09/14 14:56, Alexander wrote:<br>
>>> Just ran across : <a href="http://boycottsystemd.org/" target="_blank">http://boycottsystemd.org/</a> and thought fellow<br>
pluggers<br>
>>> may be interested as well.<br>
>>> ______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
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>>> <a href="http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug" target="_blank">http://lists.plug.org.au/<u></u>mailman/listinfo/plug</a><br>
>>> Committee e-mail: <a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au" target="_blank">committee@plug.org.au</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au" target="_blank">committee@plug.org.au</a>><br>
>>> PLUG Membership: <a href="http://www.plug.org.au/membership" target="_blank">http://www.plug.org.au/<u></u>membership</a><br>
>><br>
>> ______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
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>> <a href="http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug" target="_blank">http://lists.plug.org.au/<u></u>mailman/listinfo/plug</a><br>
>> Committee e-mail: <a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au" target="_blank">committee@plug.org.au</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au" target="_blank">committee@plug.org.au</a>><br>
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> <a href="http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug" target="_blank">http://lists.plug.org.au/<u></u>mailman/listinfo/plug</a><br>
> Committee e-mail: <a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au" target="_blank">committee@plug.org.au</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au" target="_blank">committee@plug.org.au</a>><br>
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><br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
"The ecological crisis is a moral issue." PJP 2nd<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
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</blockquote>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
PLUG discussion list: <a href="mailto:plug@plug.org.au" target="_blank">plug@plug.org.au</a><br>
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</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br></div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
-- <br>
Dolphins are so intelligent that within a few weeks they can<br>
train Americans to stand at the edge of the pool and throw them<br>
fish.</font></span><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
PLUG discussion list: <a href="mailto:plug@plug.org.au" target="_blank">plug@plug.org.au</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug" target="_blank">http://lists.plug.org.au/<u></u>mailman/listinfo/plug</a><br>
Committee e-mail: <a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au" target="_blank">committee@plug.org.au</a><br>
PLUG Membership: <a href="http://www.plug.org.au/membership" target="_blank">http://www.plug.org.au/<u></u>membership</a></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Onno Benschop<br><br>()/)/)() ..ASCII for Onno..<br>|>>? ..EBCDIC for Onno..<br>--- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno..<br><br><span style="color:rgb(136,136,136)">If you need to know: "What computer should I buy?" </span><a href="http://goo.gl/spsb66" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://goo.gl/spsb66</a><div><br>ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 8888 - <a href="mailto:onno@itmaze.com.au" target="_blank">onno@itmaze.com.au</a></div></div>
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