<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Hello PLUG (Byron, Onno, Nick etc).</div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">I<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"> believe I figured out the problem.</span></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></font></div><div><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I dug around some which lead me to a fedora forum post, which ultimately lead me to a redhat bug.</span></font></div><div><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></font></div><div><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Turns out that I forgot that - in an effor to reduce heat - I enabled the Power Save profile in Cockpit (tuned).</span></font></div><div><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></font></div></div></div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div><font face="monospace">dean@hdcpplkvm001:~$ sudo tuned-adm active</font></div></div></div><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div><font face="monospace">Current active profile: powersave</font></div></div></div><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div><font face="monospace">dean@hdcpplkvm001:~$</font></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></font></div><div><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Setting it to balanced or none seems to have helped.</span></font></div><div><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Sorry <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"></span>f<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">or dragging you all into this, but I guess theres a lesson to be learned here. Change Control!</span></span><br></div><div><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></font></div><div><a href="https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/investigating-igb-network-driver-failure-to-keep-speed-negotiation-coming-up-short/75389/14">https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/investigating-igb-network-driver-failure-to-keep-speed-negotiation-coming-up-short/75389/14</a><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></font></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><a href="https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1026359">https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1026359</a></div><br></div><div><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Thanks again and Merry Christmas to you all!</span></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><br><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Kind </span>Regards,<br><br><i>Dean Bergin</i>.</font></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 at 11:19, Byron Hammond <<a href="mailto:byronester@gmail.com">byronester@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Interesting that the firmware versions are like 2 years apart between the Debian and Ubuntu systems.<div>I would expect many fixes in that timeframe. Maybe a good direction to go in as Nick indicated with his post about loading the firmware from the Ubuntu system</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 at 11:12, Dean Bergin <<a href="mailto:dean.bergin@gmail.com" target="_blank">dean.bergin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Thanks Onno & Nick</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><div class="gmail_default">Nick, I was under the impression that most Intel kernel modules are blob-free but I took a look on both the the affected debian system and the working (K)ubuntu system and the results are interesting, but not yet conclusive or obvious.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">Onno, your suggestion is sound but sounds very time consuming, of which time is not something I have in abundance.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">I'm not sure if its worth noting, but this debian installation is very minimal <i>without</i> the "standard system utilities" and only SSH was selected at <span style="background-color:rgb(227,230,232);color:rgb(12,13,14);font-family:ui-monospace,"Cascadia Mono","Segoe UI Mono","Liberation Mono",Menlo,Monaco,Consolas,monospace;font-size:13px">tasksel --new-install</span> before I installed the packages I wanted to build this system.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">Is it possible that not buildng this with standard system utilities is the probem?</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">Furthermore, the issue doesn't just affect this NIC/kernel module either, it also seems to affect the following, which is currently installed in a working ubuntu system with the e1000e kernel module, which I can reference for differential analysis purposes (firmware, code, dependencies etc) if and as required.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><div class="gmail_default">Intel 82571EB Gigabit Ethernet Controller</div></div></blockquote><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">Thank you all for your assistance, support and advice so far!</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><b>Debian</b></div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><blockquote style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">dean@hdcpplkvm001:~$ sudo dmesg -T |grep firmware</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><span style="font-family:monospace">[Thu Dec 14 08:53:45 2023] bluetooth hci0: firmware: failed to load mediatek/BT_RAM_CODE_MT7922_1_1_hdr.bin (-2)</span><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">[Thu Dec 14 08:53:45 2023] firmware_class: See <a href="https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware" target="_blank">https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware</a> for information about missing firmware</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">[Thu Dec 14 08:53:45 2023] bluetooth hci0: firmware: failed to load mediatek/BT_RAM_CODE_MT7922_1_1_hdr.bin (-2)</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">[Thu Dec 14 08:53:45 2023] bluetooth hci0: Direct firmware load for mediatek/BT_RAM_CODE_MT7922_1_1_hdr.bin failed with error -2</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">[Thu Dec 14 08:53:45 2023] Bluetooth: hci0: Failed to load firmware file (-2)</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">[Thu Dec 14 08:53:45 2023] Bluetooth: hci0: Failed to set up firmware (-2)</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">[Thu Dec 14 08:53:45 2023] [drm:amdgpu_pci_probe [amdgpu]] *ERROR* amdgpu requires firmware installed</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">[Thu Dec 14 08:53:45 2023] amdgpu: See <a href="https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware" target="_blank">https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware</a> for information about missing firmware</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">dean@hdcpplkvm001:~$ dpkg -l '*firmware*'</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">| Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">|/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad)</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">||/ Name                Version      Architecture Description</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">+++-===================-============-============-=======================================================</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">ii  firmware-linux-free 20200122-1   all          Binary firmware for various drivers in the Linux kernel</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><span style="font-family:monospace">dean@hdcpplkvm001:~$ sudo ls /lib/firmware/intel</span><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">ls: cannot access '/lib/firmware/intel': No such file or directory</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">dean@hdcpplkvm001:~$ sudo ls /lib/firmware</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">amd        carl9170-1.fw  isci           regulatory.db-debian      regulatory.db.p7s-upstream  usbdux_firmware.bin</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">amd-ucode  cis            keyspan_pda    regulatory.db.p7s         regulatory.db-upstream      usbduxsigma_firmware.bin</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">av7110     dsp56k         regulatory.db  regulatory.db.p7s-debian  usbduxfast_firmware.bin</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">dean@hdcpplkvm001:~$</font></div></blockquote><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><b>(K)ubuntu system</b></div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">kubuntu@kubuntu:~$ sudo dmesg -T |grep firmware</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">[Thu Dec 14 02:26:21 2023] Spectre V2 : Enabling Restricted Speculation for firmware calls</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">kubuntu@kubuntu:~$ dpkg -l '*firmware*'</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">| Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">|/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad)</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">||/ Name                      Version                          Architecture Description</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">+++-=========================-================================-============-=================================</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">un  atmel-firmware            <none>                           <none>       (no description available)</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">un  firmware-amd-graphics     <none>                           <none>       (no description available)</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">un  firmware-misc-nonfree     <none>                           <none>       (no description available)</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">ii  firmware-sof-signed       2.0-1ubuntu4.1                   all          Intel SOF firmware - signed</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">ii  linux-firmware            20220329.git681281e4-0ubuntu3.17 all          Firmware for Linux kernel drivers</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">un  linux-firmware-raspi2     <none>                           <none>       (no description available)</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">un  linux-firmware-snapdragon <none>                           <none>       (no description available)</font></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="monospace">kubuntu@kubuntu:~$ sudo ls /lib/firmware | grep intel<br>intel<br>intel-ucode<br>kubuntu@kubuntu:~$ sudo ls /lib/firmware/intel<br>dsp_fw_bxtn.bin        dsp_fw_kbl_v3266.bin              ibt-0040-2120.ddc  ibt-11-5.sfi     ibt-18-1.ddc      ibt-19-240-4.sfi                   ibt-hw-37.7.10-fw-1.80.1.2d.d.bseq<br>dsp_fw_bxtn_v2219.bin  dsp_fw_kbl_v3402.bin              ibt-0040-2120.sfi  ibt-12-16.ddc    ibt-18-1.sfi      ibt-19-32-0.ddc                    ibt-hw-37.7.10-fw-1.80.2.3.d.bseq<br>dsp_fw_bxtn_v3366.bin  dsp_fw_kbl_v3420.bin              ibt-0040-4150.ddc  ibt-12-16.sfi    ibt-18-2.ddc      ibt-19-32-0.sfi                    ibt-hw-37.7.bseq<br>dsp_fw_cnl.bin         dsp_fw_kbl_v701.bin               ibt-0040-4150.sfi  ibt-17-0-1.ddc   ibt-18-2.sfi      ibt-19-32-1.ddc                    ibt-hw-37.8.10-fw-1.10.2.27.d.bseq<br>dsp_fw_cnl_v1191.bin   dsp_fw_release.bin                ibt-0041-0041.ddc  ibt-17-0-1.sfi   ibt-19-0-0.ddc    ibt-19-32-1.sfi                    ibt-hw-37.8.10-fw-1.10.3.11.e.bseq<br>dsp_fw_cnl_v1858.bin   dsp_fw_release_v3402.bin          ibt-0041-0041.sfi  ibt-17-16-1.ddc  ibt-19-0-0.sfi    ibt-19-32-4.ddc                    ibt-hw-37.8.10-fw-22.50.19.14.f.bseq<br>dsp_fw_glk.bin         dsp_fw_release_v969.bin           ibt-1040-0041.ddc  ibt-17-16-1.sfi  ibt-19-0-1.ddc    ibt-19-32-4.sfi                    ibt-hw-37.8.bseq<br>dsp_fw_glk_v1814.bin   fw_sst_0f28.bin                   ibt-1040-0041.sfi  ibt-17-1.ddc     ibt-19-0-1.sfi    ibt-20-0-3.ddc                     ice<br>dsp_fw_glk_v2768.bin   fw_sst_0f28.bin-48kHz_i2s_master  ibt-1040-1020.ddc  ibt-17-1.sfi     ibt-19-0-4.ddc    ibt-20-0-3.sfi                     IntcSST2.bin<br>dsp_fw_glk_v2880.bin   fw_sst_0f28_ssp0.bin              ibt-1040-1020.sfi  ibt-17-2.ddc     ibt-19-0-4.sfi    ibt-20-1-3.ddc                     ipu3-fw.bin<br>dsp_fw_glk_v3366.bin   fw_sst_22a8.bin                   ibt-1040-2120.ddc  ibt-17-2.sfi     ibt-19-16-4.ddc   ibt-20-1-3.sfi                     ipu6ep_fw.bin<br>dsp_fw_kbl.bin         ibt-0040-0041.ddc                 ibt-1040-2120.sfi  ibt-18-0-1.ddc   ibt-19-16-4.sfi   ibt-20-1-4.ddc                     ipu6_fw.bin<br>dsp_fw_kbl_v1037.bin   ibt-0040-0041.sfi                 ibt-1040-4150.ddc  ibt-18-0-1.sfi   ibt-19-240-1.ddc  ibt-20-1-4.sfi                     irci_irci_ecr-master_20161208_0213_20170112_1500.bin<br>dsp_fw_kbl_v2042.bin   ibt-0040-1020.ddc                 ibt-1040-4150.sfi  ibt-18-16-1.ddc  ibt-19-240-1.sfi  ibt-hw-37.7.10-fw-1.0.1.2d.d.bseq  sof<br>dsp_fw_kbl_v2630.bin   ibt-0040-1020.sfi                 ibt-11-5.ddc       ibt-18-16-1.sfi  ibt-19-240-4.ddc  ibt-hw-37.7.10-fw-1.0.2.3.d.bseq   sof-tplg<br>kubuntu@kubuntu:~$ sudo ls /lib/firmware/intel-ucode<br>06-0f-02  06-17-07  06-25-02  06-37-08            06-3f-02.initramfs  06-4e-03            06-56-02.initramfs  06-5f-01  06-8a-01            06-8f-04  06-9a-03            06-a5-02  06-ba-03  0f-04-08<br>06-0f-06  06-17-0a  06-25-05  06-37-09            06-3f-04.initramfs  06-4f-01.initramfs  06-56-03            06-66-03  06-8c-01            06-8f-05  06-9a-04            06-a5-03  06-bf-02  0f-04-09<br>06-0f-07  06-1a-04  06-2a-07  06-3a-09.initramfs  06-45-01.initramfs  06-55-03            06-56-04            06-6a-05  06-8c-02            06-8f-06  06-9c-00            06-a5-05  06-bf-05  0f-04-0a<br>06-0f-0a  06-1a-05  06-2c-02  06-3c-03.initramfs  06-46-01.initramfs  06-55-04            06-56-05            06-6a-06  06-8d-01            06-8f-07  06-9e-09.initramfs  06-a6-00  0f-03-04  0f-06-02<br>06-0f-0b  06-1c-02  06-2d-06  06-3d-04.initramfs  06-47-01.initramfs  06-55-05            06-5c-02            06-6c-01  06-8e-09.initramfs  06-8f-08  06-9e-0a.initramfs  06-a6-01  0f-04-01  0f-06-04<br>06-0f-0d  06-1c-0a  06-2d-07  06-3e-04            06-4c-03            06-55-06            06-5c-09            06-7a-01  06-8e-0a.initramfs  06-96-01  06-9e-0b.initramfs  06-a7-01  0f-04-03  0f-06-05<br>06-16-01  06-1d-01  06-2e-06  06-3e-06            06-4c-04            06-55-07            06-5c-0a            06-7a-08  06-8e-0b.initramfs  06-97-02  06-9e-0c.initramfs  06-b7-01  0f-04-04  0f-06-08<br>06-17-06  06-1e-05  06-2f-02  06-3e-07            06-4d-08            06-55-0b            06-5e-03            06-7e-05  06-8e-0c.initramfs  06-97-05  06-9e-0d.initramfs  06-ba-02  0f-04-07<br>kubuntu@kubuntu:~$ lsmod | grep igb<br>igb                   319488  0<br>dca                    20480  1 igb<br>i2c_algo_bit           16384  3 igb,amdgpu,nouveau<br>kubuntu@kubuntu:~$ lsmod | egrep "(Module|dca)"<br>Module                  Size  Used by<br>dca                    20480  1 igb<br>kubuntu@kubuntu:~$</font><br></div></div></blockquote><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><div style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><br><br></font></div></div></div></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Kind </span>Regards,<br><br><i>Dean Bergin</i>.</font></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 at 10:27, Onno Benschop <<a href="mailto:onno@itmaze.com.au" target="_blank">onno@itmaze.com.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">You said that it works with a version of Kubuntu, but not with a version of Debian.<div><br></div><div>Whilst there are undoubtedly many source code differences, my first "best guess" would be that there is a specific kernel option (perhaps even more than one) that's causing this. Comparing those is a much smaller job than diffing the two kernels and as you already pointed out, using a back-ported kernel did not solve the problem.</div><div><br></div><div>The way I'd approach this is to use the source package (dpkg-src) for both kernels, running in their respective OS, and compile each kernel package from source using the standard tools to do so.</div><div><br></div><div>If you then discover that the same happens, ie. your source compiled Kubuntu kernel works and the Debian compiled kernel does not, I'd start comparing the two config files for those two kernels.</div><div><br></div><div>You could then potentially compile the same Debian kernel using the Kubuntu config and determine if that solves the problem. If it does not. the issue is likely in the kernel source, if it does, the issue is likely in the kernel config.<br></div><div><br></div><div>If what you find is that neither works after compiling from source, explore what the difference is between a compiled from source package is when compared with the supplied binary package.</div><div><br></div><div>Ultimately you're looking for a needle in a haystack. Starting with git and logs and source code is in my experience not the way to a swift resolution.</div><div><br></div><div>Finally, git blame is a useful way to discover who changed a relevant file and how it was changed. While it's unlikely that the change was caused by a patch of the actual kernel driver - you know, that would be a "doh" moment - you can use tools to create a chart of dependencies and see what links into the driver file.</div><div><br></div><div>For example: make -Bnd | make2graph | dot -Tsvg -o out.svg</div><div>Source: <a href="https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/283501" target="_blank">https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/283501</a></div><div><br></div><div>Disclaimer: There are MANY moving parts here. This could use as easily be a tool difference, for example a different version of the compiler tool chain, so tread wearily.</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 at 09:51, Nick Bannon <<a href="mailto:nick@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au" target="_blank">nick@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 09:18:02AM +0800, Dean Bergin wrote:<br>
> Seems as though the backports kernel 6.5.10-1~bpo12+1 unfortunately did not<br>
> solve the problem.<br>
<br>
As the driver loads, it may have kernel log messages about having to<br>
load some firmware blob(s). Are those different? try copying the "good"<br>
firmware files to the "bad" system? also:<br>
<br>
dmesg -T |grep firmware<br>
dpkg -l '*firmware*'<br>
ls /lib/firmware/intel<br>
<br>
Nick.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
   Nick Bannon   | "I made this letter longer than usual because<br>
<a href="mailto:nick-sig@rcpt.to" target="_blank">nick-sig@rcpt.to</a> | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal<br>
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PLUG Membership: <a href="http://www.plug.org.au/membership" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.plug.org.au/membership</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Onno Benschop<br><br>()/)/)()        ..ASCII for Onno..<br>|>>?            ..EBCDIC for Onno..<br>--- -. -. ---   ..Morse for Onno..<br><br><span style="color:rgb(136,136,136)">If you need to know: "What computer should I buy?" </span><a href="http://goo.gl/spsb66" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://goo.gl/spsb66</a><div><br>ITmaze   -   ABN: 56 178 057 063   -  ph: 04 1219 8888   -   <a href="mailto:onno@itmaze.com.au" target="_blank">onno@itmaze.com.au</a></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
PLUG discussion list: <a href="mailto:plug@plug.org.au" target="_blank">plug@plug.org.au</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug</a><br>
Committee e-mail: <a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au" target="_blank">committee@plug.org.au</a><br>
PLUG Membership: <a href="http://www.plug.org.au/membership" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.plug.org.au/membership</a></blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
PLUG discussion list: <a href="mailto:plug@plug.org.au" target="_blank">plug@plug.org.au</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.plug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/plug</a><br>
Committee e-mail: <a href="mailto:committee@plug.org.au" target="_blank">committee@plug.org.au</a><br>
PLUG Membership: <a href="http://www.plug.org.au/membership" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.plug.org.au/membership</a></blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>