Java and Perl (was Re: [plug] Time & Task Management Tool)

[Trevor Phillips]

John Summerfield wrote:
> 
> > Does Opera? Mosaic? KDE's explorer?
> 
> Don't know about opera, but the platforms where I know it's availal,e
> users have an alternative, and it's likely to be installed.
> 
> Mosaic I thought hat died, but ditto.
> 
> KDE? Qui sais. But ditto.

So, by your reasoning, I should use Netscape or IE over, say, Opera,
because it has Java support??

Ok, so, I think apart from our application category differences, I think
you're also after a target audience. By the sounds of it, you are
writing an app for use, say, internally by a company. Most of what I do
is public documents and data, and so cannot afford to say "Get a REAL
browser or go away!" to our target audience.

> > That's rather subjective, and depends a LOT on the page. Most of what I
> 
> Subjective? 90% is OBJECTIVE, or was when I was at school.

So, 90% can use your app, and 10% can't? Not very good if you're trying
to reach EVERYONE.

> I don't know what generated them, but after 270+ enquiries the bulk is
> considerable.

Aah, you mean for a whole session! Hmmm. Haven't really considered that
aspect. Mainly concerned with transfer time per page, as bandwidth is
usually dwarfed by other downloads.

> > a) Latest lynx has Table support (enough to get minimal row divisions)
> 
> Hmm I have 2.8.0. What do I need?

I think that version has tables support.

> especially for in-house software. Even in cases such as NAB one can
> reasonably say, "to use this service you must have a java-enabled browser."

Oh? Why? I should use Windows98, JUST so I can access my bank details??
Heck, it's easier to revert to the primitive phone banking!

> Besides, we started discussing the merits of Java. They stand alone, but
> to illustrate them I made some comparison with Perl. For many things where
> Perl requires add-ons, java doesn't because the capability's built in. I
> can also find all manner of advantages to perl, but that's not the
> original question.

My original request was basically in relation to Perl, as I myself use
Perl a lot, and know little about Java under the bonnet, so was
interested if people could justify dumping Perl for Java.

In fact, my original query was about Java as a SERVER side programming
language (servlets??) which I have heard mention of occasionally. The
Client-side vs Server-side is another discussion altogether (and one
we've tended to head down). As such, Perl CGI vs Java Applet is more a
design decision, whereas Perl CGI vs Java Servlet is more a technical
back-end choice, which is what I'm also interested in...

> Nobody learns perl in a couple of hours. You might learn a little perl in
> that, but I have a book containing about 650 pp. Nobody can even READ it
> in that.

Enough perl to write effective CGI's, certainly. Basic variable
handling, string comparisons, language structure, etc, was all I needed
before I was writing apps. The Tute was, oh, about 5 pages, one on each
topic?

> I turn off javascript and allow java. java was designed to be secure, and
> has a better history in that respect than its competitors.

Secure, until Micro$oft did their own version, and cut out many security
features to save development time. ^_^

> > > Another advantage of doing the presentation on the target machine: it can
> > > find the screen resolution and adjust the presentation accordingly.
> >
> > Latest browsers can do this. ^_^
> 
> To change the layout of a form?

If you want to.

> Weren't you arguing for older browsers a while ago?

No, I'm arguing for backwards compatability. The design of a page (or
app) such that it will work on ANY browser, old or new, and can use new
features but doesn't RELY on them.

Stats for the Murdoch homepage we have show that 75% of all people use
the "High Bandwidth" version, and 25% the other. The difference is the
High has an image map, and uses a Java applet to do scrolling news
headlines. Considering everyone's first access to the page is to the
High one, 25% shows quite a number, new browser or old, prefer less
Java, and less images, for a simpler page.

Also, total, 66% of people use the Java applet. That means there are 9%
who DO use the High Bandwidth, but don't have Java-capable browsers.

This 66% is based on Browser Agent details, and so doesn't take into
consideration those who have Java turned off.

Sample dataset was 81165 hits over 1 month.

These stats are a pretty good indication of our customer base, so Java
Applets are rather impractical for a "must have" feature.

-- 
. Trevor Phillips             -           http://jurai.murdoch.edu.au/ . 
: CWIS Technical Officer         -           T.Phillips at murdoch.edu.au : 
| IT Services                       -               Murdoch University | 
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