[plug] MS Curriculum at schools and TAFEs ...

[Simon Scott]

	>Whilst in the main you are right - the schools, universities, etc.
don't
	>TEACH free thinking, philosophy or any of the rest of it, neither
do they
	>actively discourage the students from working the techniques out
for
	>themselves.  For that matter, they don't usually ENcourage them
either, BUT
	>the opportunity is there for the students to learn for themselves.

	The place of a uni/tafe is to *actively* encourage this, whether it
is through classes or just by providing the facilities for students to go it
alone, with support when needed.

	>Having said that, it then falls on the students to WANT to learn.
The
	>reason that universities are increasingly becoming diploma mills is
largely
	>because the students don't want to learn any more than they have to
to pass
	>and get a degree.  I suspect that has always been the case, but
what it
	>means is that some universities are churning out graduates who are
	>technically just about qualified to tie their shoelaces.  It's a
sad state
	>of affairs, but that's what is.

	Then they shouldnt get degrees. The whole idea of being a 'Bachelor'
of Science was originally meant to convey the fact that you had excelled in
academic thought, with the guidance of other 'bachelors'. It did not mean
that you had a good attendance record and managed to get your assignment in
on time. Undergraduate courses were similar to what I imagine Masters and
Honours courses would be today.

	If the students dont want to learn, send them home. All they do is
devalue the degree, and waste my time.


	>I disagree.  What's broken is the basis of the system.  The system
could not
	>exist without the students.  And if the students son't want to
learn, the
	>system doesn't work as it should.

	Then they should take up lawn-mowing. See above.


	>I don't know which uni. you went to, but ALL my lecturers had
strong
	>real-world experience and were more than willing to discuss
alternative
	>approaches to problem-solving.  Given that you had to learn Ada (as
I did),
	>I can make an educated guess - but it might well be wrong.  Anyway
the point
	>is that not all unis/courses are like that.  Admittedly some are,
	>particularly where you have large class groups and the lecturer
simply
	>cannot devote the time to each student that (s)he deserves.  Maybe
I was
	>spoilt in that my class groups were always small, so that our
lecturers
	>always found or made time to discuss any issues which arose in
relation to
	>coursework.

	ECU Mt Lawley.

	It was the same for me, people like Bill Laidman and Paul Maj really
made uni for me. However I think it is a different story today. 

	Maybe my time was ruined due to these 'student who dont want to
learn' wasting the lecturers time. But again, I ask why are they there?

	>Again, I don't know what uni. you went to, but in _my_ course,
design was
	>drummed into us from the word go, and probably 40% of the total
course time
	>was spent on design.  To some extent, I agree with your point about
RDBMS,
	>but it _does_ provide a useful grounding in, and logical
stepping-up point
	>to OO design (at least that's what I found).

	Design was taught, sure, but not to the level needed. Most people
never used it and just started hacking. Again, probably these 'students who
dont want to learn'. Yes, OO is useful for certain things, but its
definitely not the panacea that they claimed it would be. They are still
claiming that 'Java is the next big thing' and have been for 8 years. I
still dont see it.

	>Now this is the crux of the issue.  Any educational institute will
always be
	>at the mercy of those who control the marketplace.  At the moment,
that just
	>happens to be Bill and his evil cohorts, but who knows what might
happen in
	>the future?

	My point is, they should have anything to do with the 'marketplace'.
If it is unfeasible for a uni to run without pandering to large corporations
then perhaps it would be better for them to not run at all. I think with the
current level of damage, they are causing the IT 'state of the art' to move
backwards.

	Frontpage for web-pages? Jesus. I feel ill. I wouldnt use a copy of
Frontpage to clean my shoe.

	I think thats the difference. There is, at least, 3 levels of
'science'. As an (rough) example....

		a) The current level being taught - Use Frontpage to create
a webpage - add a photo of yourself.
		b) 10 years ago - utilize HTML to display WWW based
information. Extra points for style.
		c) What should be taught - information layout/hyperlink
languages. HTML as a subset of SGML. Information transport protocols. Client
technology. 

	A point made badly, but I hope you get it. They are currently
teaching at level A. They used to teach at level B. They should be teaching
at level C.



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