[plug] MS Curriculum at schools and TAFEs ...

[John Breen]

> The place of a uni/tafe is to *actively* encourage this, whether it
> is through classes or just by providing the facilities for students to go
it
> alone, with support when needed.

Granted.

And that's why I think the fact that I did my first year almost entirely
through external studies served me so well.

>
> Then they shouldnt get degrees. The whole idea of being a 'Bachelor'
> of Science was originally meant to convey the fact that you had excelled
in
> academic thought, with the guidance of other 'bachelors'. It did not mean
> that you had a good attendance record and managed to get your assignment
in
> on time. Undergraduate courses were similar to what I imagine Masters and
> Honours courses would be today.

And if they didn't get degrees, they wouldn't go to university.  And then
the universities would cease to be economically viable in the main.  Then we
would wind up with one really good one instead of five mediocre ones with
each having some really good lecturers.

>
> If the students dont want to learn, send them home. All they do is
> devalue the degree, and waste my time.

I agree.  In the main, the students should be made to learn for themselves
anyway.  A long time ago, there used to be courses run for students coming
out of high schools etc, into uni. which taught them _how_ to learn.  Those
courses should be taught earlier.  Unfortunately, you can't force them to
want to learn - that must come from within themselves.  And there will
always be a certain percentage who look upon a degree simply as a meal
ticket.

>
>
> >I disagree.  What's broken is the basis of the system.  The system
> could not
> >exist without the students.  And if the students son't want to
> learn, the
> >system doesn't work as it should.
>
> Then they should take up lawn-mowing. See above.

I agree.  See above.

>
>
>
> ECU Mt Lawley.

Thought so.  I did most of my time external and on Bunbury campus.  But I
finished my degree on Mount Lawley.

>
> It was the same for me, people like Bill Laidman and Paul Maj really
> made uni for me. However I think it is a different story today.

To some extent yes.  As class sizes get bigger because uni. is no longer the
elitist institution it once was lecturers increasingly find that they simply
don't have time to give to the students who need it - the ones who shouldn't
be there are becoming an increasing majority.

>
> Maybe my time was ruined due to these 'student who dont want to
> learn' wasting the lecturers time. But again, I ask why are they there?

See above comments in reference to "meal ticket"...

> Design was taught, sure, but not to the level needed. Most people
> never used it and just started hacking. Again, probably these 'students
who
> dont want to learn'. Yes, OO is useful for certain things, but its
> definitely not the panacea that they claimed it would be. They are still
> claiming that 'Java is the next big thing' and have been for 8 years. I
> still dont see it.

And the ones who didn't use it (or at least, didn't show that they knew what
it was about) didn't pass.  I know what you mean about the Java - I did that
unit.  But I keep an open mind.  Java has its place.  So do Perl, C/C++,
PHP...  Most of which I've looked into in my own time, because I WANT to
learn.

>
> My point is, they should have anything to do with the 'marketplace'.
> If it is unfeasible for a uni to run without pandering to large
corporations
> then perhaps it would be better for them to not run at all. I think with
the
> current level of damage, they are causing the IT 'state of the art' to
move
> backwards.

They shouldn't, but they must.  Educational institutions are providing a
service.  The services need to match what's being demanded, and to a greater
or lesser extent what's demanded will always be controlled by those who
control the market.  AFAIR the unis (and ECU in particular) are contracting
to M$ to provide training for MCSE candidates.  But they do this with other
companies too.  If it gives them money to better provide for their students
needs, and that money is used for that purpose, then it can't be all bad.  I
do remember that in the main I steered clear of the M$ products during all
my programming units.  It did not affect my grades in any way - I was
certainly not forced to use (say) M$ VC++.

>
> Frontpage for web-pages? Jesus. I feel ill. I wouldnt use a copy of
> Frontpage to clean my shoe.

It has its place.  But, I will agree - that place is NOT in education.  The
lecturers I know would agree with me.  To the extent that one who taught
HTML and web design when I was in Bunbury actually failed half the class for
using FrontPage.  He INSISTED on the students actually leaving with a
knowledge of HTML, not a knowledge of frontpage.  If they then went into
industry and used the M$ thing, that's their problem.

> A point made badly, but I hope you get it. They are currently
> teaching at level A. They used to teach at level B. They should be
teaching
> at level C.

I get the point.  I taught myself, and I did it to level B.  I have an
understanding of the general idea of SGMLs (I need to - we're going to be
using XML here eventually), but I got that myself.  Again, because I WANT to
learn.

I get the funny feeling we're arguing the same face of the coin from
different edges here... :)


Regards,

John Breen

+------
| John Breen
| B Sc(Computer Science)
|
| john at fairport.com.au
| ICQ#777296