[plug] List conduct

[Bret Busby]

On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Ben Jensz wrote:

> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:02:19 +0800
> From: Ben Jensz <jensz at wn.com.au>
> Reply-To: plug at plug.linux.org.au
> To: plug at plug.linux.org.au
> Subject: Re: [plug] RH7.x
> Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:02:28 +0800 (WST)
> Resent-From: plug at plug.linux.org.au
> 

Header included, to show that I am responding, on-list, to a message 
that was posted on the list, and, that I am not responding on-list, 
to a message that was sent off-list.

> Bret Busby wrote:
> 
> >That is one reason why mailing lists generally impose some standards on 
> >acceptable conduct (and, as otherwise publishers of the defamations, to 
> >protect themselves againmst litigation).
> >
> Please take this as constructive criticism Bret.
> 

I have always been open to constructive criticism. The emphasis is on 
the word constructive.

I assume that you, also, can appreciate constructive criticism, and, 
rational and objective response.

> Since I've been on this list, I have seen several altercations take 
> place between yourself and various other people on this list.  Does it 
> ever make you wonder why you're the only one who seems to be involved in 
> these little incidents?
> 

I am not the only one, and, I am not the only one who has complained 
about (mis)conduct on the list, and attitudes contained in postings on 
the list.

Recently, another person raised concerns about prevailing attitudes on 
the list, in particular, the attitude of one of the more prolific 
posters, who has been on the list for quite a long time.

And, it is not only the two of us, who have complained, in the past.

And, as I had mentioned, some postings have been grossly offensive, and 
have transgressed into being illegal.

If I say something that may cause some people on the list, to disagree, 
they tend to become agressively belligerent. Yet, if people on the list, 
post offensive material, and, in particular, grossly offensive material, 
especially if it refers to me, people tend to think that acceptable, 
and, amusing.

Double standards appear to apply, on this list.

Unfortunately, such concerns are automatically dismissed, or, ignored, 
as not many people seem to care about what goes on, or, the effects of 
the conduct of the list.

> The way in which you write some of your posts could (and are) 
> interpreted as being very critical attacks on various issues and/or 
> other people's opinions (whether you intend them to be or not).  So 
> immediately if you are being critical of someone else's opinion, you're 
> going to get them off-side.
> 

What the current brawl arose from, was a posting that I made, in 
response to a posting by Tony Breeds-Taurima, wherein he had said that 
he had given up on RH7.x, as he had found 7.1 wanting. My response was 
a suggestion that he might want to try 7.3, as I understood, from 
previous posts (that convinced me to try RH7.3, which I now use), that 
RH 7.1 had lots of broken bits, that were (mostly) fixed in RH 7.3, and 
that the only problem that I had with RH 7.3, was the lack of access to 
the RHN, via the up2date agent.

As it was, Tony Breed-Taurima's response, indicated that he had given 
upon RH 7.x, for reasons other than the brokenness of 7.1.

There was nothing provocative, or, overly critical in my posting. 
However, people took it upon themselves, to challenge my experience, so 
I clarified my experience.

Nothing to get arrogant, or belligerent about, but, some took it upon 
themselves to respond that way, and, for some, a race developed, to see 
who could become the most arrogant and belligerent.

As it was, some list members gave some good advice, about things like 
the apt-rpm, etc.

The problem, as often unfortunately happens on this list, is that the 
good advice was clouded by the arrogant and belligerent responses, which 
were uncalled for, as they often are on this list.

Similarly, previously, when I took Tony Breed-Taurima's suggestion to 
run the poll regarding the attachments on the list, because it was me, 
it was regarded a sport, to attack the poll, and the subject of the 
poll, instead of simply shifting the issue into votes in the poll, to 
bring the issue to a timely close.

> So maybe you could try to re-word some of your posts before posting 
> them, because like I said above, whether you intentionally mean for 
> things to be interpreted the way they are, some of your posts can be 
> interpreted as you being very critical of other people's opinions.
> 

The problem is not what I say.

It is generally, as has been previously mentioned on this list, a matter 
of "Ooh, look, Bret has posted something on the list. Lets start a new
flamewar against him. Isn't if fun!" It is a thing that has happened off 
and on, over the years.

That is why this goes to acceptable conduct on the list, and, how 
people may perceive the type of people who use Linux, PLUG, and the 
mailing list, and, the character of the upcoming Linux conference.

And, that is why it is worthy of a proper, rational and objective 
discussion, to try to clean the list up.

There is, from memory, a psychological treatment concept, referred to as 
a snake pit. It may help some, and, it destroys others. The list is a 
bit like a snake pit - some on the list, may find the actions amusing, 
but, as was previously stated on the list, by someone else, it does not 
encourage people to use Linux, or, to become involved in PLUG or the 
list, and, as PLUG is hosting the Linux conference, it does not 
encourage involvement in that.

Oh, and, for those who delight in trying to be smart and gain black 
stars for trying to be sarcastic about my use of commas, I defy you to 
correctly find grammatical fault with my punctuation, that is any worse 
than the standard of grammar or spelling used by others on the list.

-- 
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
 you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
  Chapter 28 of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
- Douglas Adams, 1988
....................................................