[plug] [OT+link] Feeling secure?

[Leon Brooks]

On Friday 27 December 2002 10:17 am, sscott at iinet.net.au wrote:
>> So... walk into a US embassy or military base and you're on US soil
>> under US flag and the protection of its laws - except for this bit
>> over here where we torture people, an action well outside the bounds
>> of US law and almost certainly international law as well.

> And quite rightly I reckon.

Until it happens to you, I suppose.

> I like the way the US approaches some things. The rules only apply in
> times of peace. If you threaten their way of life directly, expect morals
> and rules to be thrown out of the window.

In other words, we only have principles up to a point. In which case, why 
pretend to have principles in the first place?

> They are literally the most powerful military force the world has
> ever known.

> Dont piss them off. Quite simple really.

Bullying. Quite simple, really.

> As long as I dont have to witness the horror of a man being tortured, and
> am allowed to continue in my own little peaceful world, I am forever
> indebted to these people.

Now there's an interesting statement. 

> Do you reckon my grandfather, or several people I have known over the
> years, went to WW2/vietnam/korea to be nice guys? War is war. They went,
> killed a lot of people, suffered enormously, and those that are still
> breathing are still suffering (like my mate who wakes up screaming nearly
> every night post-vietnam). And theyd do it again. They did it so people
> like ourselves can sit chatting aimlessly on a mail list about things we
> cant comprehend. They paid the price for our freedom.

Yes, but for the most part they did it _honourably_.

> I take my hat off to all of them, and the current US action. If it means
> that my daughter can grow up without worrying about being the target of a
> terrorist attack, I back them fully.

Sadly, it doesn't.

> The absolute truth is that I would prefer that 100 terrorists were killed
> or tortured to my family suffering any harm whatsoever. I dont even mind
> if some of them are wrongly accused.

Yeah? And if you yourself were one of the wrongly accused, would you still 
feel that way?

>> Of course, if they're prepared to down such basic and obvious freedoms
>> in the name of national security, are they going to blink at downing a
>> freedom which allows Linux to flourish? [you just read the on-topic 1%]

> Do you think Linux would flourish in a world run by terrorists?

No, which is why I object to the USA behaving like terrorists themselves.

> They are *protecting* your freedoms, including the freedom to develop
> linux.

No, they're protecting their own interests. If they happen to coincide with 
mine (or yours), that doesn't excuse their methods.

> Personally I think the gonoeva convention is a crock. Its war. You want to
> be nice, stay at home. Unless youre willing to commit completely to the
> horror that is war, you dont care enough about the topic at hand.

On whose authority do you make that statement?

> If youre nice and
> peaceful and good to your fellow man, then you have nothing to fear.

Nice theory. Do bear in mind that you're trying to apply it to the real world, 
which is made up of real people.

> I find it interesting that someone (and Im not singling you out Leon, dont
> get me wrong) can sit in a nice home, in a nice city, in a nice country,
> playing on a nice computer, reading information on an unrestricted
> internet connection, with a full stomach, and with little to no fear of
> harm, all of which has been afforded them by the sacrifices of the many,
> many people who have fought and died for these privileges, and come to the
> conclusion that the people who are making those sacrifices are evil.

I'm not. You're blurring the distinction between honourable conflict and 
amoral butchery. You're also blurring the distinction between a fair society 
and a bully that for the moment appears to be on your side.

> I think the young people in this country need a good dose of national
> service to wake them up - I dont want the next generation of leaders to
> let the country become overrun with terrorists and extremists just to
> avoid offending someone...

It may surprise you, but I do agree with this. It works for Switzerland.

Cheers; Leon